Finding Brave 173: Let's Talk About It: How To Successfully Have the Hardest Conversations

Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. We commit to having this be thought provoking. My goodness. And hopefully a lot of fun along the way and very helpful we hope. And today is no different. I am so thrilled to have our guest, Paul Marciano with us and we are going to be talking about. Let's talk about it. How to successfully have have the hardest conversations. Paul, thank you for taking the time and I know my calendar messed you up and you were here wonderfully an hour early. Thank you so much. I cannot wait to dig in on this important topic.

Oh, Kathy, thank you so much for having me and I've enjoyed the conversations that we've had so far. I know we will enjoy this one.

I know we will. All right, everybody, I want you to know about Paul. Here's Paul's bio. I got to put my glasses on. Dr. Paul Marciano. This bio is just so illustrious. Earned his doctorate in clinical psychology from Yale University and has worked in the field of human resources and human relations for over 30 years. His best selling book, Carrots and Sticks Don't Build a Culture of Employee Engagement with the Principles of Respect has been translated into several languages and received many accolades including being named one of the top one of the 100 best human resource books of all time by Book Authority. Wow, that's amazing. Paul's newest release, let's Talk About It. Turning confrontation into collaboration at work provides readers with the skills necessary to have straightforward and productive conversations around even the most emotionally charged issues. I wanted to share too. You live on 100 acre horse farm in the one bridge town of Three Bridges, which cracks me up every time I read it. And you're the proud grandson of. Will you pronounce his name? Is it Ludwig Bemelmans, the author and illustrator of the amazing book Madeleine? Who hasn't had Madeline growing up or reading to their children? I would love to talk to you about what that's like being the grandson of Ludwig, but first and foremost, let's just talk about this issue here. Let's talk about it. What motivated you to write this book, Paul? What was the trigger?

Yeah, I mean personal and professional. So on a personal level, my. And this is always in the back of my mind, growing up I knew I had an uncle because my cousins would tell me about my uncle, but I never met him. And so curious. And anyway, as it came out, he and my father had gotten into an argument when my father was in his early 20s. They never spoke again. I never met my only uncle. I never met my first cousins. And he passed my uncle. So I know that's a dramatic example, but there are so many instances, Kathy, in our families in which literally, Kathy, I had this conversation with somebody yesterday. You know, great Aunt Martha got left off of, you know, an invite to somebody's bar mitzvah, and it was because it was the wrong mailing address. And so the one thought she wasn't invited and the other thought she wasn't respond. And there are just so many conflicts that occur in family and with friends. Maybe some listeners out there can relate to that. Again, with family, in which something happened, it was never talked about, and then it caused a real fracture in that relationship.

Did you ever find out what it.

Was had something to do with the family business? I've reached out to my cousins, and amazingly, they don't want any kind of a relationship, which is just really sad, I think. So I thought about sending them a copy of the book with My Love.

So you were thinking about these schisms that we have, these conversations that so need to be had, but we can't find a way. Is that right?

Yeah. And so that's. Yeah, that's personal. And then professionally, you know, so many times over the last 30 years, at the most basic level, managers who simply couldn't or unwilling to have performance conversations with employees. And, you know, if you're not. If you're not willing to have those kinds of constructive coaching sessions, you're not in the right job. And I think that, Kathy, I think that when it comes to these difficult conversations, you know, we largely avoid them. If you ask people like, what do you do when you. What do we avoid them? I think it's for the same reason we. We avoid jumping out of airplanes because we view it as very dangerous and that we don't have the competency. And so the way that I view my work in this book is let's help people get competent. What are the skills required to have those kinds of successful conversations?

I love it. Were we talking about this or was I talking with someone else? I have a friend who's now 82, and she had a double mastectomy and very serious cancer. And she told me something, I'll never forget that when she would. While she was going through chemo and lost her hair, when she was at the grocery store and saw friends, they would avoid her. I can't say that without crying. And I said, oh, my gosh, you know, how did you internalize that? Or what did. And she said, I knew they were scared, number one, that it could be catching you Know what I mean? But, like, I don't want to be with someone who has cancer. But number two, I don't know what to say.

Right.

So I think, isn't it true that these difficult conversations, they're not only some major rift, they're everyday things that we don't know how to talk about because we think we're going to blow it, or. I mean, your book has come out in quite an emotionally charged time. I think we've. We've almost forgotten how to talk about, well, politics and religion and ideology. We just don't know how to do it.

I think it's. And that's a very, very sad story about your friend. And I always come back to just being authentic. I mean, even if you say, I am so sorry for what you're going through, and I don't know what to.

Say, oh, how beautiful. And another. And we're gonna. I can tell Paul right away, you're giving people language. Write it down, take notes. It's really. Say words when I don't know what to say. Someone's lost their father, lost their child. Horrific things. I say, I'm so sorry what you're going through. How are you holding up? That's it. And then you never have to figure out what to say again because they're going to tell you, right?

I think it's great. Yeah. And in a very sincere, authentic manner. You know, one of the things that is one of our pet peeves is once I says, hey, how are you? Because it's one of the most inauthentic things that you can say. And I remember in my own life once being asked that shortly after I had lost a loved one and was grieving, and then what did I have to do? I had to lie, right? I had to say, oh, well, I'm feeling fine. Because that's what we do in our society.

Because they don't really want to stop on the sidewalk, walking the dog, listening.

So, oh, I'm fine. And then I have to lie about it. Who's ever said to you, I'm actually having a terrible day, let me talk to you about it. I mean, unless they're a good friend. So this casualness with which we avoid or address these very heartfelt kinds of situations.

Oh, it's so true. So let's start with what not to do, Paul. I bet that list is long. What? And what I'd ask you all to do is think about, let's do this. And correct me, Paul, if we could do something better. Think about a Conversation, you know, you have to have. I mean, I've had them over the years with employees that I waited too long, years too long. And, boy, does that backfire. Or you show your resentment instead of helping them understand why you're so angry. But think about the conversation you know, you need to have and you do not have the courage to. But we're going to give you the tools. What are the biggest mistakes we're making here?

Well, I'm actually so glad you use the word courage, because people will often say that they don't have the courage. I think about what is it? The lion from Dorothy. And, you know, in some ways, I think it's not the courage. But maybe you're just tired of the way that things are. Like, you're tired of avoiding that conversation. You're tired of the way that the relationship is in the way that it isn't. And so that's easy.

That's easy to identify.

Yeah. And I think so. I think some of the mistakes are, you know, language matters, and our thoughts give us our life. So if I say in my mind, this is going to be a difficult conversation or this is going to be a confrontation, well, that's the reality that we create, because our thoughts, our words, give us our reality. So, again, you can imagine going into it like you're going to have a coat of armor on, Right? And which weapon are you going to choose? Because it's going to be a war. In fact, just last week, I actually heard one of our senators say, it's going to be a fight, talking about, you know, other side of the aisle. One of the reasons, Kathy, right now on my desk are sitting 100 copies of the book going out to our senators. Can you imagine that kind of mindset?

Do you think they're saying that, let's not get political. But let me ask, do you think they're saying to their constituents, don't worry, I've got your back. I'm gonna make it a fight? Is. Is that it? Or do they.

And is that where we've gotten to?

Which I think it is. Let me prove to you that I'm dominant. I'm gonna take this. Oh, good grief. But your point, I think, is if you say it's going to be a fight, that's exactly what you're going to.

Right, right, right, right. So, I mean, again, your. Your words, your thoughts give your life. So if I say it's. It's. It's tough to drive in New York City, then it's tough to drive in New York City. Right. It's so it's your way of thinking. So the first place that I come from is this is an important conversation to have. Maybe it's important for our relationship. I'm going to be responsible for making that happen.

Sounds so simple.

And by the way, another thing around mindset is, you know, let's say you and I have gotten in some, some sort of regular conflicts. Traditionally we think about, Well, I own 50% of the relationship and Kathy, you own 50% of the relationship. We come in together, we get into an argument, we walk away. Well, I held up my part. Right. It's Kathy's problem. What if you went into that conversation and said, I'm going to own 100%, I am going to be fully responsible for how this conversation goes regardless. Regardless of how Kathy acts or responds.

Well, can I push back there? I think we can legitimately say I can be a hundred percent of what comes out of my mouth and how I act in the conversation. I mean, I've worked and been with enough narcissists that I know that I'm not in control of their part, that, that, you know, very rational, well thought out sharing can be stuffed right back down your throat from literally a person with a narcissistic personality disorder. And you walk away going, what just happened there? What happened? So I think I understand what you mean. That I'm going to do everything humanly possible to shape this in a positive way.

Yes, yes. And not allow yourself to say, well, that person made me feel a particular way, made me, and I'm a victim. Right. And it's just, it's so disempowering. You know, that person, you know, made me cry. That person made me yell that. Nobody can make you feel anyway. Don't give your power away. That's what I mean.

Agree with that. I have something called a career path assessment that I have new clients fill out. It's 11 pages of questions I wish someone had asked me 40 years ago. And regularly I see something like, I'm having a problem with my boss. She made me feel small. Well, I know in a minute she didn't make you anything. You took it in a way that made you feel small. So one little step I would encourage listeners to take is watch your own language, watch your own dialogue. Are you saying he made me act like that? Because he didn't or she didn't. Right. What else, what else are we doing that that really botches a difficult conversation?

We treat it as a zero sum game. Right. One person Wins, one person loses. We, we. Unfortunately, I think as human beings, Kathy, we strive really hard to make the other person wrong because that means we can be right. Don't we do that? We think about. Well, first of all, when we're in a disagreement, am I really actively listening to you?

No. I'm simply waiting till I throw in my next data point.

Exactly. I already, I already know what you're going to say. I already know you're wrong. There's no sense of curiosity. Right. And I think that's so critical is if we are in disagreement, let's say at work, if I respect you as a colleague, if I think that you have the best interest of the organization at heart and we differ on some point, and I feel, I could feel really strongly, well, out of respect to you, why wouldn't I just say, boy, I really, I wonder why Kathy has. Where she's coming from, how she arrived on such different conclusions than I have. And so people always say, well, active listening, so good. The way you get to active listening is by maintaining a profound sense of curiosity. And that's just critical.

You know, I want to say something and ask you this as you're talking. I love doing this podcast because as I was saying to my other guests, I feel like half of my mind is fully engaged, but the other half is analyzing it and thinking about myself. I hope that's all right. But what I remember is that in my worst period of corporate life, there was no curiosity. And I will tell you why I think that isn't. And I would love your thoughts now. After I became a therapist, certainly with all my clients, it's 100% curiosity because I'm not invested in their ideals or belief. I mean, I'm not invested in sharing their values and ideals. It doesn't hurt me or offend me if we see things differently. I have to get to the bottom of who they, they are. So it's 100% curiosity. But I find that that has over. Flown over. What's the word? Overload into my personal life where I can truly be more unbiased and simply listen and be curious where I can't. And I'm really interested in what you think is when there's fear. So I think what you said. Look, I really respect you, Paul. We're colleagues. You're in marketing, I'm in account finance. I really get, I get it. And I'm really wondering why you're pushing for this thing that's going to spend half a million more than I think we need to I think we can do that. But when all of a sudden what you want makes me fearful, makes me fearful of my job, fearful of my success, fearful of how other people are going to think about me, then I think all of this falls apart. Is that right?

Well, it gets control. We control here. And by the way, I really like the language that you're using. And one of my favorite expressions is, you know, help me understand where that's coming from. You know, help me understand that. Because as human beings we, we want to feel understood.

Oh, that's the truth. And we want to be validated and be validated.

We're all desperate and you know, if, if you don't agree with what I'm saying, it must be because you don't understand what I'm saying. And if I keep saying it, then maybe you'll understand and you'll agree. So I think it's really important the skill of paraphrasing. Kathy, let me make sure I understand what you're saying. So that does a couple of things, right? One that demonstrates respect that you have been listening, by the way, it also confirms that there's accuracy because if I don't understand, that's really important to get out as well. So that paraphrasing and then asking permission, you know, I'd really like to share with you where I'm coming from, right. Where what my thoughts are at this point. I mean getting back to the issue of fear, I mean some of it unfortunately is really legitimate, especially in a hierarchical kinds of situation. So unfortunately, look, there are those instances in which the conversation is with yourself and that is, this is an unhealthy environment for me and I can do certain things, but it would be in my best interest to exit. I'd give you an example happened yesterday. A gentleman that I know has a boss who is absolutely, you know, just sort of a terror and unreasonable and you know, he simply made the decision. And I'd worked with him for a while and just said this is not in the best interest of me or my family. I've done what I've can do and it's time for me to step away.

Leave. Leave the company.

Yeah, he's leaving the company and he was high potential individual and I worked with him and all that. So at any rate, you know, at the end of the day you control what you can control. And then, you know, in the book I talk about lots of call it approaches to these kinds of conversations, but you may have to make a decision as people do in their marriages and such that it's best to move on, especially when trust is broken.

We'll talk about trust. Trust has got to be there to have the difficult conversation, doesn't it?

Well, the more there's trust, the more there's respect there. More than empathy. Much higher chance that it's going to go well. Because if I believe authentically in what you're saying, then I can hear that. I appreciate that. And if there's not trust, that's my listening is. It's going to be really different.

Wow.

Very, very different.

Do you talk in your book about how can I build trust so that I can even be heard? Do you talk about that?

Yeah, well, I do, and I talk about it quite a bit in my first book, actually. So, first of all, trust is typically built up over time. So you and I have only recently got to meet one another. I'm going to gauge trust largely by an integrity. So you do what you say you're going to do. I do what I'm going to say I'm going to do. It's like a piggy bank, right? So you put a nickel in, I put a quarter, and we build this up over time. Notice that was very fragile. I'm thinking about a porcelain piggy bank. And if I do find out that you've said something or done something against me behind my back, you know, it's like dropping that piggy bank. It shatters into a thousand pieces and you can never really get it back together right at work. That might look like micromanaging somebody if you don't trust a direct report. So I think trust gets built up over time. And one way to build, I think, trust and respect, especially as a manager, is, you know, when you blow it, you're like, I blew it. Right? I blew it. And so, you know, trust just. It comes, you know, from a sense of authenticity. And by the way, I. With all of these difficult conversations, I try to frame it so I would frame it as, you know, Kathy, our relationship really matters to me, and something's come up and I've been avoiding it, and I feel like it's going to come between us. And so I don't want that. And I want to have a conversation because it really matters to me.

You are doing something that. I interviewed these two guys, the behavioral science guys, David Maxfield and Joseph Grenny, and I just talked about it before, but quickly they filmed a female actor and a male actor saying something really forceful like, I do not agree with the direction this team is going. And all Sorts of audiences, male and female, watched it and all audiences didn't. Both people dropped in terms of their. The audiences perceived what they perceived, the competence and value of these two people. But for the woman, it dropped precipitously. You know, forceful. We don't like forceful. So they, the behavioral science guys tested ways to mitigate the backlash. And the best way they came up with was to add a value statement in front of the difficult thing. So for instance, their example was, folks, you know, I really value transparency and authenticity. Authenticity. So I feel the need to say I don't agree with the direction the team is going here. And you know, they didn't really flesh out in the article I did with them exactly why that works. But in my sense it was, you're building a bridge to be heard, to be, you know, it's not just a slap down of your idea. Yeah, dummies. It's. Can I explain why I am going to say this? So it frames it, it gives a context. What you did is exactly that. Will you say it again? I love it.

Oh, Kathy, you know, our relationship really matters to me. I really value what we have and something's come up, it's occurred. I've been avoiding the conversation and I don't think that's fair or respectful to you or to us. And so that's why I want to share this and have a, have a discussion, something like that.

I think just even saying that our teeth could be chattering in, in fear, you know.

You know, there are a couple of things, I think that make conversations. We make all kinds of assumptions about things. We believe we have all the facts. A lot of times we don't have the facts. By the way, sometimes what even is a fact, Right? I mean, you know, you can look at the Constitution. We're not going to get too political, but there are things written in the Constitution that two different sides of the aisle interpret completely differently.

It's incredible.

Totally differently. And so when it comes to this idea of truth, I find that it's a little T truth. There's rarely a capital T. Facts can be distorted profoundly. And so this whole idea of what's right, who's right and who's wrong, what's right, you know, that's the right thing to do. Well, right for who?

Right.

What does right mean? And it's maybe in this moment in time, under these particular circumstances, it may be not right, but our best choice. But that could change.

It's really true. It's really true. So what happens when you, you make that entry, you that, that opening. And the person says, all right, okay, I'll have this. So let's say it's between spouses or good friends or like in your situation, the family member, that just breaks my heart. That also the kid, the kids are going to keep that going. That, that just breaks my heart. But anyway, okay, you've made the opening and the two people are sitting together. What are some things we want to make sure we do not do and say that's going to make it combust, self explode. What do we do?

So let me put this on the playing field, which I always like to do, because you've sparked a memory for me. So a good friend of mine who owns a small business has another good friend who has an auto repair shop. My friend who owns John is his name. His daughter's car breaks down, takes it to our friend Joe. Joe fixes it, John picks it up. The bill is full blown, right? The full, you know, thing. Now John's the kind of guy who would give his shirt off your back and has certainly done favors for Joe. So he pays the bill, but he's not happy about it, right? Because there's sort of no, hey, this is a friends and family discount. And John's done a lot to help him out. So number one, so critical. He. He gave himself a timeout, right? He just.

The one who was mad. John.

Yeah, John. John was like, I need to take.

A time out before paying the bill.

No, paid it. Paid it, then took a timeout. And there's something going on here for me. You know, let me figure this out, right? Let me, let me look at this for a moment and then just get really clear with yourself and then get really clear about what, what it is that you want to have. I want to have a conversation, but then what do you want as an outcome of that conversation? So. And it's really important. You know, it's like, it's like a script. You want to prepare. So that's one of the most important things. One of the things people don't do is they don't prepare and they just vent, right? And they think that's a conversation. It's not. So to say to himself, what was important for John was that he wanted to express his views because he did feel as though, you know, if you felt wronged by a friend, what do you. What most of us do, we don't talk about it. And it creates this distance, this space in between us. By the way, your friend may have absolutely no idea what the problem Is just doesn't occur. And is that really fair to that individual? Because then you don't give him or her the opportunity to clean it up. So saying to Joe, after he cooled down and thought about what he wanted as a result of the conversation, hey, go. Listen, I just want to talk to you about something because we've been friends a long time, and I. I want us to stay friends a long time, but we had. I want to talk about what happened with, you know, my daughter's bill. And he was just very.

What did he say that. You know, I just said, you know, that you'd apply a little bit of a discount also.

Well, something like, you know, Joe, I feel like over the years when. When the opportunities, you know, when you've asked me for work and when I'm able to, I give it a cost, you know, as a good friend. And look, I understand, obviously, you need to make a living. I got that. No question about it. But it seems like maybe there was an opportunity for you to. Instead of charging the $120 an hour, maybe it was $80 an hour because it's coming from his daughter who's 19 years old and just got this car and such like that. But here's what's really, really important, Kathy, is he got complete by expressing himself with no expectation. That's really important. With no expectation of what Joe would say or do. No expectation.

I don't know that that's possible with a friend.

Isn't that great? And of course, Joe, at the end.

I don't think I could do that.

I know, right? Advanced move.

That's an advanced move. Can I. Can I dimensionalize something? When you said he wanted to get clear on the outcome, what came to my mind was, yeah, I want you to lower the bill. But there's other outcomes if you want to be heard, or I. Or I want to preserve this relationship. And I believe that the nature of it has been different from what this bill reflects. But before I make all sorts of assumptions and projections, let me talk to you about it. But you know what? I think that. Tell. Talk me through this. Let's say it's you and me.

Yep.

I give. No. How would it. What would it be? My kid needs coaching, and I think you're the perfect coach.

Sure.

We don't talk about the rate, which we probably should before. Let's.

Very good.

Let's not be ridiculous.

Get ourselves in a position.

Right. So. Okay, so you said it'll be my typical fee, and, well, that would be a case of lying if it came back high. But let's say you took more time with my kid.

Right.

And I thought. And then I get the bill and it flies in the face of what I understood.

Yeah.

So if I were coming to you, I would have some outcomes in mind, which is one, I care about you and I don't want to blow our relationship over this. But number two, I don't think this works. I don't really think this is the right bill for me.

Got it. And we talked about this earlier, approaching it from the place of curiosity.

Okay. What would you say? What should I say to you?

Listening to Kathy, you know, I'm confused and somewhat concerned. And so help me understand. You know, this is. This is what I see. Right. This is. Correct me if I'm wrong. We had this arrangement. This is the pricing. You spent some extra time with my daughter. The expectation for me and for my daughter was that it kind of remained the rate that we had discussed. I understand you went over. It seems like that was a choice you made.

Oh, wow. So brave. I love it.

Yeah. So help me. Just help me in terms of your thinking about the extra fees. I think I like to. Again, you're approaching it not as a confrontation. You're approaching it as a conversation, as a collaboration, as a seeking to understand. Now, if the other person says, well, you know, that was the time we went over, well, then I've got some choices to make.

Right.

I mean, I'm going to maybe pay the bill because I want to have integrity around it. I would pay the bill. I don't want to make it any worse than it is and just make a choice that, you know what, there was a disagreement there bad on me that we weren't more clear about that up front. And then you can make a decision about whether you want to continue in terms of a relationship or not. But clearly this is an area that you don't want to come back to.

Oh, it's so great. I know that you are a PhD in clinical psych. Right. And I know you know this because we've talked about it. I really believe that the vast majority of women would have a much harder time with everything that you are talking about.

Then why do you think that is? We are not disagreeing, by the way.

No, I'm getting mad. No, here's why. And I don't mean to paint all women and all men the same. Not at all. But women are conditioned from age 4 on to be pleasing, to be malleable, to be acquiescing, to not stand up for ourselves to not negotiate. You know, the research, which I always quote, 57% of men right out of business school negotiated their very first salary, 7% of women. We are not taught to do it. We're taught not to do it. So in a way, I don't know that you'd use this word, but in a way, it's a negotiation of a conversation is a negotiation of, here's my view, here's my thinking, here's my values. What are yours? Can we have a marriage of an alignment, that we have a relationship here, or is it all going to in a handbasket? So I think women even to say, like, even to have a conversation with an employee, to sit down and say, we value you, you know, blah, blah, blah, you've done great work. But there are several areas of performance that we will. We have to address because they're not meeting the expectations of me as your manager. I'm making it up here, Paul. But those conversations are very hard because women are often culturally trained to not rock the boat, to be pleasing. What do you think?

I get that. Actually, my fiance and I just had a recent conversation, and she said, you know, men just want women that just, you know, shut up and don't say anything. And just, you know, I said, boy, that's not me. That's not what I want. But, you know, the thing we've talked. She and I have talked about is often in business, it seems like women and women direct, there can be more conflict when you have female manager, female direct report, or even female colleagues than in a male, female relationship diet. I'm just curious as to your thoughts on that.

You mean the boss being a woman, there can be more conflict with a woman?

Yeah.

I mean, I've gotten this question 2 billion times. They call it the queen bee syndrome. They call it, you know, difficult women who've gotten to the top. I mean, that. That's a dynamic that's really important. And I think, thank goodness it's changing a little. But in years past, and I've been working a lot of years for a woman to be a senior vice president or in the boardroom, she had to claw her way up and there's no other woman in the room. And she's used to that. It's almost like there's a scarcity of oxygen for women, you know, in the room. So I think that I don't believe we're conditioned not to help other people or to be particularly difficult. But I think often it was that case that in some ways women Work so hard to be there. They weren't really helping others ascend as they rose. I think that I'm going to be careful here because I'm going to. I'm going to get a slap down. But, you know, a lot of women have said about other women in my life, boy, there's a lot of drama there. She's a drama queen. There's so much drama sometimes, you know, And I'm still coming off a podcast I did earlier with Mark Green about the man box culture, what men are trained to be at age two onward. You know, women are culturally, it's okay. It's encouraged to be vulnerable, be emotional. So when I look at the content of my conversations with women friends on the tennis court, whatever, I think men might go, what a lot of drama. There's always drama, there's always conflict. And that's probably how they see it, that women might be talking about someone who slighted them or someone who insulted their friend or can you believe my boss did that? Whereas men aren't going to talk about that necessarily, generally. So I think there's perception that women can be more difficult. There's, I think sometimes in inherent or culturally programmed reluctance to put it on the table, what needs to be discussed. So that can sometimes lead to emotional.

And I think, I think one of the important things is to. Is not to make the other person wrong for the way that they're reacting. So stop being so emotional. No, no, no, no, no. We respect people, their emotions, the way they respond. We come at it from a different way. And that's okay, right? That's the way that it is. But fundamentally, you know, as you know, respect is. It's got to start with that basis. And so. And it includes respecting yourself and what you're willing to tolerate or not tolerate. And I have a friend, a client who works in the construction industry. She's the only female on the leadership team, and she is very composed, very articulate. And one of the other colleagues called her and started yelling on the phone and she just said, rudy, we were scheduled to have a conversation about this issue. This is not a conversation. And so I'm going to hang up and when you're cooled down and ready to have a conversation, call me back. And this is a completely male dominated. I just love that. I thought that was great. He called up and said, now, he didn't say he was sorry. I wouldn't expect him to say he was sorry. And you can't again, those are an expectation thing.

Right?

But he said, yeah, you know, I wanted to follow up on, you know, what we talked about earlier, and they had a very civil dialogue.

You know what? That reminds me of the opposite. In my worst experience in corporate life, vice president. I came into an organization that had gone through the largest shareholder litigation in the history of America. It was a mess. A team of us were brought in to kind of turn it around, know how troubled it was. But what I didn't understand was I was the head of products, but there was a sales team, and they were acquiring contracts, marketing contracts, millions and millions of dollars. Well, my. I thought my job was to review the agreement and the contract in terms of, is this good for my product? Well, that's not how the company saw it. So what would happen was five members of the sales team would come in basically yelling at me to sign it. And finally, you know, I didn't know any of this back then, Paul. I mean, I wasn't a therapist then. I didn't know what the heck was going on. But I went, and these are very senior people levels above me. And I went, I understand how much you want me to sign this contract. I so get it. And I need you to understand my role is the guardian of this product. And I can't give you an answer. I can't think with five of you breathing. I can't do it like this. So you'll need to have. You'll need to leave. Give me an hour and let me look at this contract. You would think that that would be okay. They all went and complained to the president. It was that kind of culture. So what I want to say, people, is you can do everything that Paul is teaching in his book, in all of his work, and it can also blow up in your face. And that's when you make the choice. This culture is broken. I can't thrive here. But I waited way too long to recognize that it wasn't me. So that's another piece, I think. Tell me, and then I'm going to let you go. Culture shapes this kind of thing, how conversations are to be had. So they were in the dominant culture. Let me dominate this person, particularly because I'm a woman, too. I'm going to get this darn signature. I don't care what she thinks. Well, you're also. You have to be hip to your own context and system and ecosystem. And sometimes the ecosystem is wrong. What do you think?

I think people are. Bullies like that are reinforced for their aggressive behavior over time. I think that you're talking about leaders, you know, leaders get reinforced for being assertive. And as they move up the chain, sometimes that becomes aggressive. And by the time they're further enough up, no one's then willing to counter them. Right. To give them that kind of feedback. Yeah. By the way, I'm a big fan of making requests.

Okay.

So to say, for example, my request I would have in this situation, but, you know, I want to be really clear about what you're asking and why you're asking it. I just really want to make sure I understand that and then say, my request is that you allow me some time to review this or whatever it is you want, and that's a respectful thing to do. I avoid. I avoid saying you need to do something because that can be a trigger for people.

Yes.

So my request is that you afford me the respect to give me time to do an assessment on this, because, look, I get it. This matters, right? We want to do what's in the best interest of our client. I always try to find what's in the common ground.

Right. Oh, I love it. That kind of thing.

There's no easy answers to this. You know that.

Yeah, I can tell their strategies. I love these strategies. And your book is so full of them. So where do we go to learn all about how to have these difficult conversations successfully? Where do we go?

Well, you're welcome to reach out to me at www.paulmarciano.com, and I would be happy to have, for those listeners, if you'd like to reach out and even just have a brief conversation, no fee. I mean, if I. If I can help you in some way, feel free to reach out and have me prepared.

You're gonna get a thousand and your new book. Where do we get it?

Where else? Amazon.com but any. But any. Really, any. Any publisher, you know, any. Any bookstore should be carrying. Let's talk about It. And Carrots and six don't work.

Thank you so much. I feel calm talking to you. I want to have more conversations, successful ones with you. Thank you for the work that you do. And I know you work with senior leaders, too, people under a lot of stress. All of this goes out the window, I think, sometimes, because we're afraid. Right. And there you are, helping all of us to take a breath and understand that much more of this is within our control. If we accept that Right and challenge.

What are we afraid of? What are we afraid of?

Thank you. All right, everybody.

All right.

Don't overwhelm Paul, but please do reach out on LinkedIn wherever, wherever you are, and we're going to share your social platforms. I hope this has been helpful and you know what I'd love to hear I would love wherever you see this if you've had that if you listen to this and say I'm going to have that conversation I'm going to take these tactics. We would so love to hear that and let us know the good, bad and the ugly. How did it go?

I will tell you this no matter how it goes Kathy, you have the conversation. You'll feel better about yourself. You will feel more empowered if you follow your advice.

Not everyone had Greek and Italian lets it all fly. No, I'm being funny. You're right you're going to be doing what you know needs to be done and that that will add to your self love and self confidence. All right everybody thank you so much. Thank you for your time. I hope you find this so helpful people and let us know and we will see you next time. Thanks for joining. Bye.