Finding Brave #48: How To Get Top Exposure In The Media, and Rock Your Interviews, Mark Fortier

Hello, everybody. Kathy Caprino here. Welcome to Finding Brave. So happy to see you. It's post Thanksgiving for me right now. I'm still in a little bit of that tryptophan over turkey doubt haze, but my guest is gonna rock me into shape here. And we're so, so happy to have Mark for. Yeah, I got it right. Who I just think the world of. And you're going to figure out why in two seconds. But before I introduce you to Mark, I just want to say send out a big hug to you, Mark. Your team is so amazing. I work with Mark and his team in featuring amazing people on my Forbes blog. And you know, when you work with a team that is just exemplary, boy, do they really shine in a way other people don't. So I know you're amazed. An amazing leader and manager for them to be so wonderful. So thank you for that, Mark.

I wish they could all be here doing this interview with me. I just told them what to do.

Well, they're here in spirit. Absolutely. And they're gonna love this talk. So everyone, let me introduce Mark to you. You're just gonna love everything he has to say. And again, we're talking here about how to get top exposure in the media and rock your interviews. So it is two parts. First, you have to get the attention of top media, but then you can't blow it. Then you got to make the most of it so that they'll want to come back and you'll form a relationship. So we're going to give you the two parts of that. So here's more about Mark. Mark Fortier, president and founder of Fortier Public Relations, a PR firm specializing in business books and business thought leadership. He has worked on well over. Boy, this was news to me a little bit. He has worked on well over a hundred bestsellers. Holy cow. Eight number one bestsellers and books by dozens of Fortune 500 CEOs and 32 of the Thinkers 50 list of the world's leading business thinkers. I'd love to get on that someday. Including Jim Collins. You got it. Clayton Christensen and Seth Godin. So, you know, that is no small feat, folks. That really means you're doing top level work, Mark. So thank you for being here.

Thank you. I love what I do.

Yeah, that's. How long have you been doing this, Mark? How long have you had your own business?

Well, mostly linear path. So in college, I'll start at the beginning. I was an English major.

Yeah, me too.

Loved writing about books. Made a pretty naive decision of what should I do with my life, let's get into the book publishing business, because I like books. So I had a PR internship during college, and I started doing PR at publishers. So I was at a small independent publisher first, then at Penguin, then at Columbia.

Oh, whoa.

Then I went to a PR firm specializing in books of all kinds of. And then we started getting more and more demand for business books. Most of my colleagues, I think, ran from them and didn't really know what to do with them. And I unexpectedly clicked with those authors. I just loved connecting with these top strategic minds and planning PR strategy together. And it seemed this needed to be its own business. That a business author and a novelist, as you can imagine, are two very different clients.

Absolutely.

And rules for success. So I felt this needed to be its own business. I was ready to spread my wings. I recommend to anybody starting a business to be a specialist. I don't think I'd be doing as well as I'm doing right now if I had decided to just be a publicist of any kind or a book publicist of any kind. I chose a specialty. My goal is to try to be the go to guy or the go to firm for a very specific niche. And that's. That's a little PR tip, too. So anybody out there who's an entrepreneur or an author, differentiation is key.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. And I also think once we're niched and serving the people we love to serve, that's what makes us stand out. Because we develop a really fine expertise in that. Because it is, as you said, so different. The memoir, the novel, and the business writer, they're completely different.

And you become part of a community, and it's easier to get known within a tight community than just everybody who's out there.

That's so true. That's so true.

A part of. And that's another thing I love about what I do.

I bet there's synergy, too. Like, here I am, I'm writing my own book now. I have that. This would be my second book, so we're hopefully going to work together on that. But I also write for Forbes, so it's a lot of different synergies you have with these business writers, I'm guessing. So cool. All right, let's. Let's dive in. Let's talk about what your top four strategies are for getting media attention. When you have a book, when you have a project, when you really want to be in the news or the media. What do we do, Mark? How do we help people?

Sure. So if you aren't hiring a firm or you don't have your own publicist, there's still a lot you can do on your own. One of the best things I think you can do is to create your own content, just like does with her Forbes blog. You have the most control over your own message. And as I said before, differentiation is hard. So if you're a consultant or a lawyer or you're in a business where there's 30 other people, it's kind of hard to get attention for why you're different. So if you are putting out content, you can differentiate by your viewpoint. You're an expert in the field, you have things to share, you have recommendations that you've learned from your experience and again, a unique viewpoint. So you could create a guest post and send that to entrepreneur.com or there's lots of other outlets that accept guest posts or op eds. You can even get a full time column like Kathy does, if you can commit to that on a regular basis. Another strategy that I think is accessible for someone, if you're new at this and you haven't done a lot of pr, you don't have your own publicist, is you could start your own podcast, just like Kathy is doing right here. So if you get one important person, maybe you already know, a famous person that you know would be willing to go on your podcast and all of a sudden your podcast has credibility. Is this one important person has done it really true. Use that as bait that interests other people to go on your podcast. And then these people that have their own podcast might think, well, you're important because you have this important podcast. So maybe you'll go on my podcast and it all mushrooms and you're getting attention.

Mark, can I build on that for a minute? You know, when I started the podcast, I had done a podcast previously. I literally did it kind of, you know, as you're saying, a leap of faith with your business. I just wanted to put it out there. I just wanted to talk to amazing people. It was really more of let me put this out and let me be of use. But you're so right. I'm just validating your point. When you snag some really incredible people who have have a huge reach, then it all of a sudden started that I'm getting pitched which cover my client. That's it. And it's fun as heck to Kathy.

Is proof that it works.

That's it, that's it. What else can people do? Now, Mark, before you go on, are we talking here to people who have a book and they're wanting people to notice them before that, or we're talking to people who simply want more exposure for their ideas. Is that where we're talking about pre authors or authors?

I thought, you know, for your audience, I talk broadly about. So whether it's your business or your book that you're pitching, but you know, definitely ask me specific questions if you want some more information. If you're an author, love it.

Perfect. All right. What else, what else can people do to get attention and get noticed?

So there's getting profiled, and that is challenging because you can imagine there's lots of important people out there. And again, it comes back to my key word. I keep saying differentiate. So if you're the number one something, even if that's really specific, then you're great profile material. Or if there's something just really colorful about your experiences or achievements, you could create a profile pitch and bio and pitch that. And I guess people might ask, where do I pitch that? Look at where you read. If you read profiles of people, go to that same writer who's writing that profile and pitch them about yourself. One of the best tools you can do if you're doing this yourself is read the media, watch shows and customize. So if there's a place wanted to be in or place that you always read, look at who's writing those articles and what's similar about these articles that they're writing, and there's probably a pattern. And then if you write a pitch to that journalist, you're probably going to interest them because you know three criteria that you've seen across all of their articles.

I love it. Can I add something to that? When you I get over 400 pitches a month. I'm sure you get a million. And I spend literally three seconds. And if you don't have my name, if you don't have my name, Dear Kathy, I don't read it, and I don't mean to sound snarky, folks, but secondly, if it's clear you've never read my Forbes blog, you're not going to get past three seconds. And if you're pitching me booties for a kid and for a baby, and I cover leadership, you're not going to get past three seconds. So don't make that. We're going to talk later about the biggest mistakes in pitching, but don't make that mistake. If you can't take the time to customize a pitch, it's exactly like customizing your resume and your cover letter in a Job search, don't blanket it, you know, to 500 people. Please don't do that because you'll never, you'll almost get not blacklisted, but you know, I probably won't open something from you again if you haven't gone to the effort of customizing.

First impressions are everything.

They are the first time.

It's harder to get it right the next time.

Yeah, that's it. That's it. Awesome. What else, what else can people do?

So one thing. So if you are pitching media, your best friend is a well written email and a really well written subject line. So don't use the phone unless you know this person. It'll definitely turn off journalists if you cold call them.

So true.

See your pitch at their own time on a, on an email. And just like you said, three seconds is when they're going to make their decision. So that means they probably made this decision after reading your subject line and they might not read on anything past that. So a lot of people make just write a subject line that is hello or just something really general. It doesn't have any of the goods that they're trying to sell in that subject line. So not only do I look at my subject lines really carefully, does it have my most compelling points in the shortest, tightest way in some fashion, I also think about the order of those words that I'm putting in the subject line. So if you aren't really a famous person and nobody knows your name, don't waste space in the subject line by putting your name. If you're the number one something or other, put that in the subject line. And if your, your achievements are the biggest thing that's most important about you, put that at the top of the subject line, going to the right and save the smaller stuff to the bottom. Precious real estate.

Wow. Wow. So good. You know, I want to find out from you. I have so many questions and, you know, I often ask my guests what I need to know personally. So that's where I'm going. I'm pretty sure you're going to say yes to this, but your team does an amazing, over the top, fantastic job of not just saying we're covering or our client is Joe Blow, who's done a book. Your people will actually create the story for me. So they'll say, Joe Blow can answer these seven questions or Kathy, we know you like to write about leadership challenges. He can talk about this, this, this, this, and answer these questions. And often I'll go back and say those are the seven questions I really want to hear. So I'm guessing you agree that you've got to pitch an angle for the media person. Don't just say I don't like these. That say, you know, I have these five authors that could write about a lot of things. Let me know because then I have no idea what the angle is. Would you agree you want to talk about how to pitch a story rather than Kathy Caprino. You know the name?

Absolutely. Yeah. I think you brought up two really good points there. So the angle should be something you put in your subject line and make clear from the very beginning. So don't just launch into telling people all about yourself. Think of what the title of that story would be and write it down both in the subject line and your first sentence might be Kathy. I thought you might write a story on the topic of X. Trend stories are a great thing to look for. So you're not particularly a newsmaker. That's also a great selling point. Then think of what it is about your book or your business that's really topical that you're writing about the latest subject that is in the news or it's everybody is flocking to a particular business that's a trend and you can say you're a part of that trend. And that journalist might think, oh, that's really interesting. I haven't done a story on that. And that's often a journalist's mission is to write trend stories. Other important thing that you brought up is you have to think about pitching as a two way dialogue. It's not let me sell myself, it's not let me announce what's great about me to the world. It's a two way dialogue. You have to be thinking just as hard about that journalist on the other end of your email as about you and what you have to say. So I always say the best way to pitch is to imagine that you're in the shoes of that person. So by Mark, but I'm thinking if I was Kathy, what would I be looking for and what are the things that Kathy's editor would absolutely say no to? And what would get that editor say wow. Or what would get your story to get lots of shares and spread on social media? What can I give her that is going to help her? You're clearly paying for things.

That is so such a helpful tip. I want to emphasize that media people have editors, so we have things called swim lanes. So I'm known for leadership, women's issues, careers. But one time I remember I wanted to when Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie split. I wanted to do a piece that. Not, I don't know them, but about why we're so devastated when celebrities split. I thought it was so great, but I wrote it and something felt wrong. And so I asked my producer, what do you think? She goes, kathy, it's quite interesting, but it's not your swim lane. No.

So, soundbite, that's another tip you give me. You're taking away all my tips. Swim lane. Swim lane is a sound bite, right? That's a. A catchy term. Great visual metaphor. Anytime you're p. Think of a great, catchy sound bite like that.

Let's think about what would Kathy's editor say about, you know, featuring Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt's split? Is that in her swim lane? And if not, who else do you know in the media who could cover that? I love it.

Like, if you go on Twitter, they tell you what's trending, what trends are out there. That's a great place to look. I also, as my friend, in all kinds of ways. So you could Google latest trends and everything is there. So just see what's out there, position yourself within that trend, and that's a great way to get it.

I love it. You know, I don't know if people are like me, but on my phone I have a news app where I've selected the 10 news channels, and I. I start the day reading those headlines, and gosh, there's so much fodder for a story within, you know, what's going on in the world today. I would say this. Oh, I'd love to hear what you think, Mark. I used to feel when I would pitch anything to anyone before I became a writer, I would feel so badly and hurt and mad when I wouldn't hear back. I'd be like, for God's sake, why can't you just write me back? Well, now I know I can't write 400 plus pictures right back, so do not take offense. But one thing that does work, and I want to ask your thoughts, people will wait a week and they'll follow up and they'll say just, you know, very politely, just following up, maybe you missed it, I'm covering, blah, blah, blah. And he'd love to, you know, and I can't tell you how many times the second time I've been followed up on, I will go with it. It just happened this morning. It was Thanksgiving. When she pitched it last week, I couldn't even think. My head was mush. But I've said, yeah, yeah, I'll do that. And secondly, you know, if a writer's already written on something, they need a break before they write about it again. So sometimes if you wait two weeks and just, hey, listen, following up very politely, you'll get them to bite. But do not be hurt. Do not be offended. They're busy. They're crazy busy. But, Mark, how many times do you recommend your people to, let's say it's to me, for Forbes to reach out on the same pitch.

Yeah, that's a great question. So you're right. So, you know, it could be that you're just emailing that person on a bad, busy day and they actually would be jumping to do your story and might have missed it. So definitely is in your interest to try that again. I think your approach, as you recommend it, is fine. Just want to see if you missed it. Another approach is to think, what's some new ammunition that I could add? So let's say you just had a story that was written about you in between the last time that you contacted them. You could include a link to that story. Here's an update and something, something from the last time I emailed you. Or maybe there's some new development in the news or that trend, or if you're talking about Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, maybe that week some scandal happened and then there's a new development, that scandal that day and that smaller update of that story might be what that journalist wants to write about.

Love it, love it, love it. You know, I haven't ever asked anyone in the media this, but Mark, I'd love to know, what about a Wikipedia profile? Do you work with people to get that? I don't have one and I'm thinking about it.

No, that's a great question, because it's not at all what you would expect. So it's this myth that Wikipedia is completely democratic and anybody can just go on and make a edit and throw up their own, their own bio profile. And yet they have rules. So you're only allowed to update Wikipedia or post on Wikipedia if you have already posted several times on Wikipedia. So it's very tricky.

Wow.

Yeah. It's a lot harder than it should be. So you have to kind of dig around, maybe email your network or put a post out on social media. Anybody have a contact that has posted on Wikipedia that might be able to help get me my bio posted? So definitely a good thing to have. A little harder than it should be to make out.

Do you think it makes a difference for people who Want media attention?

I do, yes. People will be looking online to see who you are, what you're about. Do you have credibility? There'll probably be links in Wikipedia to Kathy has the Forbes column, and they'll link to your column. Kathy has a podcast, a link to your podcast, people that might have worked for companies, the link to those, it just gives you solid credibility. If you don't have a Wikipedia page, you should still look at what comes up. Google yourself and see if it's your high school yearbook, something that's more impressive and on message for what you're trying to promote. And if there's not something up there, try to build something so that there is something. Obviously these PR efforts will help get that feed to come up, but definitely important to look at what is already coming up. When people search you, they will search.

You know, you've just given me an idea for another episode. Manage your reputation because, you know, a lot of people have things they, they need to have removed and they don't know how to do it. Yeah, that's awesome.

Love it. That's it. Some of that's not so hard. There's some embarrassing photo of you. Google has a pretty efficient system where you email them, say, I want to take that down, and they take it down.

Hey, fantastic to know. I didn't know that. All right, now let's say you've nailed. This is so, so great. So many great tips. You've nailed the interview or the person says yes. And there is one other thing I want to say, Mark, and hear your thought it before. A lot of people will write me and the person has launched a business or done a startup, and while it may be a really great personal story, it's not newsworthy. Do you have any way to. And everybody, you know, if you love yourself and you're not a narcissist, you, you really believe that what you're doing is good and you, you can't wait to share your messages. But so many people you know will aim, for instance, and I don't mean to sound not humble, but they want to be featured in Forbes. But yet, you know, maybe they've launched a handbag line and, and it's small and they've sold 100,000 in revenue. Do you have any tips for people to, you know, sure, go ahead and love yourself and know that you've got something good going on. But to be realistic for what you're looking for, how can someone know, you know, is this Forbes worthy or is this Ink worthy or is this you know, whatever blip. Newsworthy. What can we give people as a tip?

It's a great question. So, first of all, of course, you're going to have to brag about what your best credentials are and your best achievements are. But if they are modest, it's again, might be the trend. So if you're the handbag designer, maybe you designed the first zebraskin handbag and it's selling like hotcakes. And that is something about a larger trend, about American taste. So think about the context of what you're doing and maybe that's the story. Not you.

Beautiful.

Think not so much about you and trying to sell you, but how you fit into a larger trend.

Oh, that's so good. That's so good. All right, now let's talk about TV and radio for a minute. And let's say, I mean, it's the same way how you get an interview. But can we talk about four things not to do in your interviews? What do you think?

So, let's see. One would be don't oversell. Producers get really angry if they think you're thinking of this as an advertisement and you're getting to go on the show and say, here's my book. It's only 20 times.

But.

You have to let them do the selling. So it's a big no. No to even do it stealthily. So you shouldn't say as I say in my book or as we do at our company, and then say the name. Everybody sees right, right through that. It makes you look bad, too. It makes you look self promotional. It's the host's job to do the promotion. You work that out with them in advance and tell them how you want to be introduced. Get them to commit in writing to what they will mention when they introduce you. And then not sell, just sell with your ideas, your viewpoints, your tips, your points, not selling product or your business.

Beautiful. I have to say to you, I learned that lesson really hard when I first started writing on Forbes. You could link. I never thought I was being self promotional, so I want people to understand this, even if you think you're just helping and you don't think you're being promotional. In Forbes, for instance, we used to be able to say, and, you know, if you want help gaining clarity, link to my free career path assessment. But it would link to a signup box. And in the beginning that was okay. And then new rules came. That's not okay. You I could link maybe to a podcast, free information. But you can't link in these cases. To a sign in box where someone's giving your email. But they kept telling me you got to remove those, you can't be self promotional. And I swear, Mark, I didn't get it. I thought I'm giving away a free thing until I really got the email. You, Kathy, you need to remove these links. And I finally got it and I had written something like 375 posts by then and so I had to go through all of them and remove them. So I just want to tell you folks, even though you don't think you're being promotional, if you are trying to get names and people to sign up and people to buy something, you're being promotional. Even if you think you're giving the best messages and helpful information in the world. What else? Any other. Oh yeah, yeah. Other things you can do in prep of the interview to rock it.

One point on my mind that I just, I do see done all the time, it's a mistake. Is when a broadcast interviewer like you ask me a question and then people sort of get nervous about. They just feel this giant airtime bubble in front of them and they feel, oh my God, I have to fill this intimidating bubble with words and content and they just feel like I have to keep going and going and going. And that really undercuts your power and of your message. So one trick I always say is to think of your point as a destination. So if I have a point that I'm answering your question, I have that point in my head that's my, my destination and I'm heading there. And once I'm going there in a linear fashion, I'm going to stop and make a very firm close and that's going to give your answer. A lot of power instead is they just keep going and going. They made their point and then they feel, oh my God, there's this air time and I have to fill it. So then let's make a tangential point and another tangential point and then it just killed the thunder of their point.

Oh God, what a fantastic tip. Oh, I think I've blown that a few times. That is so, so good. So good. And I'm sure you would agree with this. Practice it out loud before you interview. Don't just think it's going to be okay. It's like a public speaking thing. Don't think it just through here. Think up, say it, say it out loud. Video yourself. Watch yourself. Right?

Yeah. If it's a broadcast interview, you definitely want to prepare in advance. Most important thing is to Watch the show beforehand, not just to get to know the host and the types of topics they talk about, but also the rhythm and the style. You can probably all think of shows where people are talking in a mile a minute and it's kind of this fast paced financial news kind of rhythm. And it's I have a sound bite, you have a sound bite. And it's kind of this ping pong match, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then others that are this deep, slow conversation that really just gets at the heart of a topic. You're immersed in it and it's a much slower rhythm. So you want to parallel that rhythm in the interview that you do.

That is so true. I find on the few news shows that I've done, I do find it much more challenging to give your sound bite in 30 seconds. You know, I'm more of the slow.

It's hard.

Like I will come out of those exhausted because, man, you got to, you.

Really have to prepare. So best way to prepare is think in advance of what are your three main points. So if you're going on a show as an expert, you have three specific tips that you want to give that audience and write them out as bullets and directives. People's ears prick up when you say do this, do that and do number three. And also think about how you want to open and how you want to close that interview. So my mind, the first goal you want to have is to get the audience and the host to identify with you and the problem that you're talking about. So I'm not going to trust you unless they identify with you and they're not going to think there's some information here for me unless you say, here's this problem that I'm an expert on. And I bet you know what I mean. I bet you have felt my pain before. Well, I'm going to tell you what to do. I'm going to tell you how to solve that problem. Then you do your 1, 2, 3 points. Then you really need to hit it home. We've all seen those interviews where the host says, okay, now we need to cut to a commercial. That's the worst. But if you feel that coming up, just aim for that conclusion point. The real takeaway you want people to know and just force that in. Usually the host will give you some visual clues that we're wrapping up. Wink, wink and take that signal. And whatever you're talking about, just shift gears. And what's my main takeaway so that people remember that interview? It's that Close that main takeaway. That's gonna stick with them. Instead of just there was some talking and rambling and then there was a commercial and you forgot all about that guest and what they had to say.

Oh, gosh, these are fantastic. And I wonder if you'd agree with this, Marc. You know, Maya Angelou said something like, people will forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel. I do feel. If there can be a degree of an emotional content, I don't mean you're cr. I mean you leave them with. Sometimes this sounds ridiculous, but sometimes when I'm writing a post, it kind of comes from a different place. But sometimes when I end it, I'll actually go, wow, as if I didn't write it, as if it came from someone else. But usually then it's a sentence that leaves your heart, it's saying something emotional, something about the legacy of wanna leave.

Or something even more important than what, what you say. Television, video, they're visual mediums. So it is important for you to show poise and to look your best and to project confidence and competence when doing an interview, because people are going to remember that. They're going to remember your smile and they're going to remember your rapport with the hosts and whether you seem like a friendly and trustworthy person. Don't want to have the perfect Mr. Expert robot just spitting out sound bites.

Oh, man, so true. Now, I'm going to let you be self promotional, but I'd really love to hear this. Why should someone hire a PR firm? Why?

Sure. So we, you know, myself, I have 27 years of experience doing this. Every single project I work on, I learn from it. So we have a continuous learning culture at our firm. And every project we're just adding to our body of knowledge either about what media contacts are out there, deepening our relationships, thinking of what pitches are working, thinking of what kind of promotion and marketing strategies work as well. We see ourselves as partners for our clients in success, whatever their goal might be. We extend beyond just media to do plenty of things on the marketing front as well. But if you're thinking about should I hire, should I not hire? So if you have a book first, you want to feel out what you have already. So if you have a publisher, meet the publicist, get to know them. Chemistry is really important. If you're not feeling chemistry with that person, it's a good idea to hire someone that you do have chemistry with. You want to kind of feel them out about how well they know and understand your message because they're going to be your ambassador. So if you get stuck in the scientists and publicist that you feel just isn't really going to do the best job of conveying this book that you poured your heart into, might be better to hire someone that really gets your message and can say it back to you and you feel like, ah yes, that person has it and they can be my ambassador. They can spread the word to the, to the media. If you're someone in business, I think there's often a question of whether you should have a PR firm or whether you should hire a full time person for your business. And there's definitely reasons to do one versus the other. So if you have lots of initiatives throughout the year with a lot of announcements and you feel like you need a firm that has access to media contacts that you don't have and that they are going to have this expertise that you don't have, and if you hired some junior person, it would just take them decades to learn how to do that, then a PR firm is the right direction for you. Not always the right direction. I think sometimes you have a business where it might be a little bit more modest about what you have to offer. Your question about the handbag designer is a good example. And that person might be better off hiring some young person who doesn't have a lot of experience, but they've got gusto and willpower and they're just going to be at it every day just for you. PR firms do have other clients. And so sometimes for that handbag designer, they have one young person who's determined they get one breakthrough. That one breakthrough might really launch the business and cause it to take off. So that could be a better direction for you, depending on your needs.

That was so helpful. I should have talked to you years ago. And you know, I want to emphasize, even if a publisher takes your book, sometimes you get the feeling like they really get you or maybe they don't. And that is something so important. Use your gut. Who feels good in your sphere? Surround yourself with people that. Who is it? Napoleon Hill's book. He talks about people being in harmonious sympathy with what you're trying to do and you're going to get that feeling. Either they get you or they don't. Either they love it or they don't. And don't be afraid to say, even though this person is famous or really well known or other people recommend this PR firm, if you don't like the conversation with them, don't use them. Find someone Else. Wow, Mark.

Now one more reason to hire that I find comes up a lot. So obviously there's the expertise factor, but there's also just having a friend and not being lonely. Even if you're in business, but particularly if you're an author, you're an author and you're by yourself, it's just a lonely, lonely ride. And it's great to just have a partner to go through all the ups and downs with, to bounce ideas back and forth with. It's a journey and to go on that journey alone is intimidating and can be lonely. So having a friend is.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And everyone, I just can't speak highly enough about Mark's team. So if you have a book or a project, don't hesitate to reach out. So where would people reach out to you, Mark? Where should they go?

We have a website, 48pr.com that's it. All right, so on Twitter and LinkedIn, so easy to find.

Wonderful. I can't thank you enough. It's just been. I really wish I had had this conversation five years ago, 10 years ago.

Never too late to learn.

Never too late. I've got a lot of to do.

I learned a lot from you too.

Thank you so much for your time and everybody. You know, I hope you're inspired that yes, there are some strategies here that you need to follow to be, to be picked up in the news. But it's doable. Just be smart about it, be wise, put in that extra work of getting to know the people you're pitching to see what they're really, what they're covering and offer. Do the extra legwork to create a story or an angle that's timely, that's news related, that's going to help you put your board. Go for it, my friends. Find brave and I'll see you next time. And Mark, thanks again. Come back again with more tips.

I'm around.

Hey, take care. Thanks everybody. Bye.