Finding Brave 62: How to Land a Corporate Board Role and Expand Your Influence, with Sheila Ronning

Hello, everybody. Welcome to Finding Braid Today. How I'm sing songing here just because as my wonderful, amazing guest Sheila Ronning knows, I've hurt my back. And boy, you know, I want to say, when these things happen to us, don't we have so much more compassion for people who are in this situation, you know, living with pain, it's gosh, I can't bend, I can't move and I'm depressed. And so you'll forgive me if I'm a little lackluster. Sheila already will. But, you know, it's all about finding brave. I got to bravely figure out when to go to the doctor, bravely figure out what I have to say no to. So there we go. That's my Finding Brave moment. But thank you for being here and I'm so excited to have Sheila Witty with me today. Thank you.

I'm so honored. Thank you very, very much for having me.

Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Now, Sheila, we've just done an interview on my Forbes blog and we're going to link to that. That was amazing. But today we're going to talk about, we're going to take a little bit of a different angle than that post. We're going to talk about how to land a corporate board role and how that expands your influence. And so it's for anyone who's an executive or, you know, you'll tell me, Sheila, it's for all professional women, I think, who feel they have something to offer a private or a public or a nonprofit board and why it's important to do this and why your company should encourage you, in fact, to do it. But before we launch in, let me tell you a little about Sheila because it's pretty impressive. Sheila is the CEO and founder of Women in the Boardroom. Leadership and networking expert and board strategist Sheila Ronning is a trailblazer in working toward gender equality in the boardroom. In 2002, she founded Women in the Boardroom with a revolutionary vision to create an environment where women could assist other women in achieving their leadership and corporate board service goals. In a little more than 15 years, she has scaled Women in the Boardroom from concept to membership organization with global reach across multiple industries and influence in private and public boardrooms, including Fortune 100 companies. That is an incredibly impressive achievement, Sheila.

Thank you.

All women. Thank you. So cool. And you know, that could be another podcast. How do we take our idea or our burning issue or passion or cause and actually create something this instrumental that's global, that'll be another podcast interview, but that sounds good. Okay, but let's start here. Let's just jump right in. Why is board service important for executive women? Tell us about it.

Well, I mean, first you would have to ask why would they be interested in that? Right. And really, what is it? The media really loves to focus on the Fortune 500 companies. Like, you know, but there's many other, you know, sized companies, not just the Fortune 500. And so they're really not the only game in town. There's thousands and thousands of other smaller public company boards, but also privately held company boards and also advisory boards. So I know you'd mentioned nonprofits and I certainly don't want women to not do their charitable work. That's not what I'm saying at all. But I just really have no desire to help women volunteer one more minute of their time.

So let me be clear because, you know, you're talking to a neophyte here and I didn't do this when I was a corporate executive. So when we're talking about nonprofit boards, they're always non paid positions.

Well, no, actually there are some nonprofits, but very, very few. But mainly it will be like a large hospital or the ones that pay. Yes, but typically, you know, not only are they non paying, but they actually ask you to write a check.

Yeah, gotcha. So we're not going in that direction.

I focus on helping women get paid for their time versus women do not need to come to me to help volunteer themselves.

We've got that in spades, don't we?

Yes, yes, exactly.

Can I ask you all the questions that I wish somebody would tell me? And so no holds barred here.

What.

Is a compensation for a Fortune 500 or other? What is it?

What are you looking for? So. And well, for any public company, if you're interested in qualified for a public company board, you will find that information on their website because it has to be in their proxy.

Okay.

But you know, and it will range anywhere from oh my gosh, it could be, you know, 125,000 to 500,000 plus it could be also stack. Most likely it will be. So it's typically, you know, a mix of both. When you of course get to smaller one smaller public, it'll be smaller amounts privately held companies, you know, it's definitely a lot harder to figure out what the compensation is because they're private. Right. But the larger, more established private companies that they'll mirror, the publicly held companies and advisory boards are going to be really all across the board. Because, you know, when you're looking at a startup that has an advisory board or you know, even an established smaller company, they might give you either only equity or they might say, here's you know, $500 per meeting or 5,000 a year or something like that. But we don't want to forget that larger companies also have advisory boards. I mean, so what we do, you know, we're not a search firm and, but I've been doing this for close to 17 years now. It's frightening how long it's been, but I love every minute, so that's good. We do get in board openings through this amazing network I've built over the years. So we do, you know, get those in and then, you know, send them out to our members. But one of the board openings we got in was for the Toyota Diversity Advisory Board and they were paying 100 grand plus a car. Oh. So there's cash to be made, but don't go in it just to make the money. You really, you know, you need to figure out why you're wanting to serve on a corporate board. And you know, I always say that our members are life learners because they just have no desire to one day just, you know, retire and do full time gardening. Yeah, not there's anything wrong with that, but they just want to keep learning and growing.

Right. Oh my gosh, I love it. So for that kind of compensation, what, what is your commitment? Is it like, is it basically like another full time job?

Well, no, it's not. That's typically one of the reasons why people want to DO board service versus that 247 grind. Right. And in fact, a lot of people will serve on multiple boards as well.

As their corporate role, right?

Well, yeah, some will do that and then some will just have that portfolio of board service. So it could be that, you know, they're, they're working, you know, a big corporate job and they probably will only have one board at that time. But when they, you know, decide to have this different, you know, take two or whatever, take three or four, they might have a couple of different boards that they're serving on. So the financial piece obviously comes into play very well at that point. But you know, a lot of times women will think, well, I want to, you know, how do I give back? And you know, the thing is, serving on a corporate board is also giving, is fulfilling that because you are helping a company get, you know, from one step to the other, one level to the other. Wow.

Gosh, I really wish I thought of this when I was a corporate vp, but that leads me to. Yet I'm gonna just grill you like heck. Sheila, do people like me who run their own small businesses have anything to offer a corporate or other board?

Well, of course, absolutely. I mean, listen, I'm an entrepreneur as well, so I know we do everything right. But when we really think about what are the different types of boards, we have to think about where, you know, what was the largest company I was at where I was an executive. Right. So let's talk about you. Alright. Let's use you as an example. Okay. So where, you know, what size company were you at where you are an executive?

Well, let's put it this way, I don't. So it was a long time ago. You know, I was laid off after 9, 11, but I was responsible for something like 30 million in revenue for my product base.

Well, that's really nothing to sneeze at. Right. Okay. So. But small. It's small. Small, right.

Yeah. And so small marketing, you know, product. Product services. Product and program services company.

Yep. Okay. So you most likely, at least your first board will be on that size of board and that's great. So when you think about. And was it a public company?

No.

Okay, so you then it most likely will be a private board. Right, right. So if you were to like it's not the only job or the only role, you know, I don't want to necessarily generalize, but when you look at like the, the big picture, the role of a board member for a public company is going to be a lot about corporate governance. Yeah. And on a private company board, the biggest role you have is probably more about strategy.

I see. Perfectly so.

And which one would you rather be a part of? Me. For me. Yeah, exactly.

So, and the corporate governance piece, are they looking for people who've been in finance? Not probably marketing, branding, communications. Probably.

Well, that's not what corporate governance doesn't mean, just the financial piece and that, you know, the interesting thing is that when we look at, you know, oh my gosh, 10 years ago, seven years ago, five years ago, the way what the skill set is that boards are looking for these days has really, really shifted. And that's amazing. You know, even though we're not a search firm, we get in so many board openings and so many board opportunities for our members and we, you know, we keep track of all the stats of what we're seeing and unfortunately don't have those to ratt right now. I know for the difference between 2017 and 2018, you know, versus the 2018-20, 19 right now. I mean, I wish I had.

We can post those, you know, below.

When you get those, just to let you know, we had. We have seen such a dramatic shift. And, you know, because it used to be that they're all. I was looking for that financial expert, the qualified financial expert, and that has. And also the experienced corporate board members. So it's like, well, what is it, the chicken or the egg? Right? I mean, you can't be on a board until you have experience of being a corporate board member. That just doesn't really help women. But both of the percentages keep dropping. More and more on the board openings we get in. And I really feel like the percentages of what, Sheila? The percentages of boards that are looking for those two specific things.

Oh, okay.

And I honestly feel like we're probably the ones who have the best, you know, overview of that, because we get in, like, I, you know, again, I don't have the numbers right in front of me for last year, but I mean, it's, it's like a hundred different board seat notifications. We get anywhere from like 60 to 100, which is a lot. It's a lot. And we see, you know, like 75% of them are public companies. And, you know, then it's like 27% are large, you know, 17 are mid cap, and, you know, 17% are micro. So we really are seeing the skill set that is needed on board, that's wanted on board service. You know, corporate boards is really changing rapidly.

Oh, it's so interesting. And I've got a million more questions, but let's, you know, a lot of my listeners are professional women. Can you give us the parentheses, bleak numbers about the number of women who hold board seats in the US versus men?

Well, okay, I will tell Kathy. I don't actually like to focus on those numbers. No, I rather focus on you and the reason. Okay, so the numbers do not give a good overall picture.

They don't.

They're only talking about the Fortune 500 companies. That's it. Every once in a while, someone will do research on the Fortune 1000. But that still is not a good overview of where we're at today and why do we want to sit around and whine about those numbers?

Can I, can I challenge that? Sheila? I'm the opposite. I love to advocate for something, and when I see a number that pisses me off, man, I am supercharged. So I feel if there's anybody listening who has an advocacy tendency, and I have this quote, the six Dominant action styles. What motivates you to be a goal advocator? So I look at the number and go that I'm going to work towards changing. And I'm guessing that motivated you? 17.

Okay, well, absolutely. But the thing is that sitting around and talking about it, and I call it whining because then I usually say why would we sit around and whine about it when we should be drinking wine? And two, get off your butt and go do the work that it takes to get there. Because it does take work. And I work with a lot of senior level executive women and a lot of them then will walk away from that mentality and think they're entitled. And you know what? You're not entitled. You have to do the work. It takes more than a credit card. You can't just join an organization all of a sudden, get onto a board. You have to do the work. And what the work is is that knowing what your value add is, having that elevator pitch down, knowing who in your network to talk to, but also when should you be reaching out to them, how you should be reaching out to them, what should you say? And more importantly, how do you maintain that relationship without it being a me, me me? Because women, I mean people in general, but I do talk about women because that's what I work with. We just don't. That's not how networking is done. And it's also about timing. You can't just tell somebody once or you can't just assume people know. So I feel that years ago I stopped focusing on that percentage and focused more on.

It was so bleak. You mean because it was so non.

Inspiring, wasn't getting anyone anywhere.

Wow, interesting. Gotcha.

And of course I'm passionate about that number. But I will tell you, when I'm working with our members, it just, we don't. We talk about what can we do, you know, how can we just get it done. I'm more go, go go versus you know, woe is us.

Gotcha. So folks, if you're actually interested in the numbers, they are in my Forbes blog because I take a journalistic approach to a lot of what I write about and it's there if you want to see it. I love it. And I'm guessing, Sheila, if I mapped what you have to say about how to get a board role to what I tell women about how to advance your career, how to get a job, how to network, it's so probably right there aligned.

Of course. Yeah.

And that, that bit of whining or entitlement you know, I don't, I don't really see women doing that, but I see them saying, you know, 10 years ago I was a c, you know, chief operating officer, a CFO or whatever, and now I can't get nearly what I used to get. Yeah, you can't if it's been 10 years that you haven't worked or. What we do want to do is eradicate entitlement and educate. What I want to do anyway is educate women about.

But you know, I really just want to make sure that people know they have to do the work.

So I love it. Yeah, totally love it. All right, so forget the numbers. What, what are the best three tips you would give then talk to us about how do you network to land an opportunity, vet an opportunity, explore an opportunity?

What are the three, three.

Let's do it this way because I love to be contrarian. What are the blunders that you see that you help correct in trajectories towards this? Is that an easy way to answer?

Yeah, of course. I mean you, you mentioned about, you know, the people looking for a job, right? So if somebody were to come to you and say, hey, I'm, you know, I need a career change, I'm looking for a new job and you know, our network, I always say our network wants to help us, we have to help them help us, right? Well, if you say that to someone, they're going to be like, okay, but what are you looking for? What are you good at? What are you passionate about? And that's the same thing with a board seat. If you just tell people, hey, I'm interested in getting on a corporate board, I'm, you know, that doesn't help anybody help people. So you do need to be very specific. So we work with them on our, you know, what we call the elevator pitch. Right. And really the whole goal with that too is just to make sure somebody doesn't have that glossy eyed look once you're talking either that you really are able to clearly articulate, articulate that in just a few, few moments, right?

Question, question here. Do you think that when you work with someone to articulate board service potential that that would be different words and different message than who I am in the business world. And can I just say something quickly? When I have a thing, I'm on LinkedIn in a big way. Got them, you know, a huge following there. I can look at someone honestly on LinkedIn and in 5 minutes I can see how they're doing their work, I can see who they are, I can See how they view. But so the work I do with them is power them up on LinkedIn as well as every other place, because. Oh, good metaphor for how you show up in the world.

Yep. That's great to know. By the way, Kathy, I need you that.

Oh, good.

Oh, good.

I love it. I'm so, you know, love it. But would you say that they need to be powered up about board service in a different way than they need to be powered up about how they talk about their work?

Yes. So the reason why is when you're serving on a board, what we always say is that it's fingers out. It's eyes in and fingers out.

What's that? Eyes in and fingers out?

Yes, because you're not part of management. You are overseeing. So really good example would be when I'm working with somebody on their elevator pitch, we would talk more about, you know, a company and a different type of situation where they would add tremendous value, but it wouldn't be them. It wouldn't be about them creating the team or, you know, coming up with this new system. It would be more about, listen, I can, you know, a company that is in a, you know, major transformation or a company going through a growth phase, whether it's organically or through acquisitions, is where I could add tremendous value versus I would, you know, I could come in and I've built teams and I've created processes to, you know, better help them in their growth phase.

So the difference is I can help, oversee and provide guidance and advice and support, but it's not me doing the work.

This is my expertise. This is what I've done. This is where I would add tremendous value.

Do you mind me just doing the primer here with you, Sheila? I'm going down to the lowest level, beginner level. So if someone says I've actually turned around fading products, which I've done, you know, businesses that were about to go out of business, I've turned them around. And you're saying it can't be all about what you have done. It's got to be how you can provide oversight and strategy for that, right?

Actually, I'm not saying that. Okay, good.

Tell me more.

Okay, so let me ask you a couple of questions.

Yeah.

All right. So if we were talking about you and your elevator pitch, and so you're telling me right now that where you would add tremendous value in a company on their board would be a company going through a couple of different situations might be where, you know, a company is going through a major transformation, where they are really needing to fine tune their offerings. There are different, you know, whether it's the products or services. Correct.

Yeah. I mean that was then. Now it's 13 years later and I offer other things. But it would be how.

That's why I mentioned it. Yeah.

Just because I'm pulling out of my own corporate career. Something that would be helpful. Yes, that.

Yes.

How to tell a different kind of story with your brand. How to connect through engagement. That's what I would be doing now. Back then, I turned around fading products mostly by looking at what the necessary partners and those were banks who would promote our services, how what the partners needed from us that we weren't giving to them and that's why they were falling away and we need those partners.

So you feel that you're in tune with the consumer.

Yes.

Current trends.

Yes, absolutely.

So I have an elevator pitch for you. Yeah. And I'm that good at it, by the way.

Yeah, you are that good at it.

You would have to choose if you're going to go from, you know, because you kept saying, well, that was in my past and this is now. You actually can't remove all that greatness you have from your past. So, you know, there's. I definitely wouldn't go into it and have that conversation with somebody else. Right.

I mean, the reason I'm saying that to you is that isn't what I care about right now. I'm done with that. The board service that I would want to have now is not that. So that's why, you know, I'm trying to just be honest with you. That was 13 years ago. 15, 18 years ago. I think where I want to hear your elevator pitch, but where I was going is if you're not on as the board, you're not the one doing it all. What is it that the board needs from you in how you give your expertise?

That's right, it is. So you're asking me many different things. We're kind of going back and forth. Right. And so you really do need to figure out what the, your role is on that board. And that's in the interview process. Let me go through the elevator pitch real quick because I want your listeners to say, well, she never gave it. So you would say to somebody, you would say, listen, as you know, you're, let's say you're talking. You and Bob are in the elevator. You're on the first floor of the elevator. And it is an opportunity for you to let him know that you're interested in serving on a corporate Board and you, you're going up to the 15th floor so you don't have a lot of time and again, you don't want to have that glossy eyed look. So you would just say, hey, Bob, as you know, an executive, as an experienced. Because you're not now. Right. So you say, as an experienced executive with a, you know, small privately held company, I'm looking to get onto a corporate board and a company that is in a transformative state. Whether they are, you know, bringing in new products and or services or they are looking to grow, whether it's organically or through acquisitions or they are really needing to be in tune with their consumers. You know, as an expert, you know, in current trends, I would add tremendous value to, to those companies and I would like to know if there's anyone in your network that you can text me to.

Beautiful, beautiful. Makes it very clear. It does what I do, who I do it for, why I do it, and the ask which is not do you have a job? That's the mistake so many people make. It's, would you know anyone who would be helpful to speak with?

Right, right.

Your network.

Yes. So to then go back to your other question after that where, you know, what is your role? I mean, you really do have to figure out what is the job of a board member. And you know, first and foremost it is, you know, in a publicly held company it is, you know, whether it's to fire or hire the CEO and it's really to have that oversight and it's, you know, making sure that they are following the rules and you know, having that good corporate governance and making sure that their shareholders, their stakeholders are happy and making money. That is their job.

Gotcha.

Wow.

So fascinating. Yeah, so exciting. All right, let's go back to, I think we were talking about some blunders that you see that you would like.

To correct right away when they're networking. Yeah, absolutely.

Or in general, anything else you see?

Well, I mean, one, it's not knowing what their value add is or they go to people in their network and they say, wow, I'm really interested in serving on a corporate board. What do you think? Or you know, what do you think I should do? Or you know, what should I do? They're going to them and they're putting that person in a mentor, mentee role with them versus going to them confident and knowing what their value add is and knowing what they're looking for. And because your network is most likely going to be how you get onto a corporate board. So I Say, let's work out all that stuff with me. Right. And figure out. Work it out good at. And so that you can really use your network to land that corporate board seat. You know, even if you think, oh, no, no, Bob, he will help me. He's gonna. But, you know, he's not going to give you the golden nugget, no matter if he says he is or not, because he doesn't feel you're ready and it's his brand. So really, going to your network when you're ready with that elevator pitch, which includes really, you know, where you would add value.

So let me ask this. I always say to people why networking is so essential is if you can have ambassadors who are elevating you without you being in the room that's going to open doors that you're not able to open because you're in the wrong room. Do you find that, like, if people work through you. I can't wait to know this answer. Do you ever refer someone to that organization as someone who's been vetted? In other words, are you ever. You said you're not a recruiter for it, but do you ever make those connections or.

Oh, absolutely. All the time.

So is it true, am I right, that you'll probably have a lot greater chance to be considered when someone who this board already respects makes an introduction for you? Right. Then you see this listed.

We're only getting those board openings in because people know I've been doing this for a very long time, and they know that I only work with women who are really wanting to do what it takes to get it done.

Gotcha. Wow. And is there. Are there any other blunders besides networking? Maybe even in the interview process? Is there something that you hear your clients or constituents say that you think, oh, no.

Well, you know, if I were to ask you, why do you want to serve on a corporate board, what would your answer be?

My answer would be, I'm so excited to learn and grow. Apply what I already know. Apply my toolbox to help an organization grow. But it's also a learning process for me.

Yeah. And that work really, you know, make sure that you're really overstating the part about helping that company get to the next level. Yeah, that would be it. If it were. You're gonna go in there and say, well, oh, I just, you know, I retired and I thought it'd be a great way to make some extra money. That's a big no. No. Big no, no. Or, oh, I just thought I'd have this portfolio And I'm going to be able to go play tennis or golf then.

Does anyone really do that? Well, I think. I think part of what you're saying, I relate to in that when I see a person's headline on LinkedIn and they say, looking for opportunities, I just want to hang my head. It's not about what you're looking for. It's about what you have to offer the world. You just wasted your prime real estate in your tagline with, I'm looking and.

You know, and then you accept that invite or somebody's invite, and all of sudden they blast you immediately with some, you know, spam. I'm like, well, now I'm going to delete you as a contact.

Right.

Because that's not how you do it at all.

No, no. So your point is really know and be really confident down to your toes, what you offer and what you've done that you love and what you're passionate about.

But it's.

It's about how you're going to help them, really, let's face it.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, you want to make sure it's the right fit for you, too. It's not just all about them, you know, if it's not the right fit for you, you're not going to do your best.

And can you leave us with, I'm aware of our time and I know you got a scoop, but what's a big thing you ought to be looking for to know if it's a right fit for you? Or flip that. What have you seen where a woman's gotten a job on the board and comes back and says, what a mistake?

Well, we don't have that because we make sure that they are interviewing that board just as much as that board is interviewing them.

So if they're not working with you, let's say, and they haven't gotten your advice, what have you seen?

You don't take it right, you have to make sure the chemistry is there.

And what feels wrong, they don't feel ethical, they don't feel trustworthy, they don't feel authentic. They're full of shit. Excuse my language. That's going to get bleeped out.

What are you, what are you looking for in your next board member? And it doesn't match with what you bring to the table? Or if they say, we just want a woman, you know, I mean, that's.

That does that, is that said sometimes, like, you're just filling our core.

I honestly have not heard that in a long time. But again, the board Openings we get in, they really, they're through this amazing network I've built up for so many years and they get it.

And you're aligned.

Yeah, I mean I hear about it from interviews or whatever that our members might be having, you know, maybe through a search person or something. You know, wow.

That's. And finally, for anyone who is a leader of an organization, can you tell us in your own words why it's so important for the leaders to be encouraging the executive women at their company to go for these board positions and to facilitate that wherever they can?

Yeah, yeah.

What's the biggest reason?

I mean, honestly, I feel that this is a conversation that has been happening a lot over the years. Right. And it, you know, it's for any executive, not just women. Right. Where I mean, obviously I'm passionate about helping women get there, but it just at the bottom, you know, at the end of the day they're going to be learning this amazing skill set from these other brilliant people at the table. It's a great networking opportunity. It's really to go in and how does this business handle this, this and this. Well, maybe we should think about that. So it really is win win.

It's a win win.

Such a huge win win. It really is.

Everybody benefits.

Yep, exactly. So I, you know, companies, CEOs, they just need to be more open to that. And I certainly realize there's some, you know, potential conflicts out there and you know, so they, but there's a way to work around it, whether it's okay, hey, you can't be in a public company, but you can be on a private.

Wow, I've learned so much. Thank you for sharing.

You're welcome.

Very inspiring. I just can't wait to learn more and dig in even more. So where can people learn all about you, all about women in the boardroom, where do we send them?

Womenintheboardroom.com that's pretty easy.

And do you have. It's a membership program.

So people, you know what we are membership organization. But we have tons and tons of information on our site where you don't have to be a member to learn from us for sure. Resources we have, you know, some of our webinars are free. There's a great one. I know we did. It's maybe been a year, year and a half, but it's still all of our contents on our website and it's is corporate board service for you and it really does go through more of the what is your role as a board member? And I'm Doing that webinar, by the way. That's mine. And I always leave you with action steps on what you can do to get your seat at the table so you don't have to join. It's not rocket science, but, you know, if you're busy and you're not getting to you, then you need someone else to answer those questions. And we're the safe place, right. To ask all those questions.

So great. I love the service you're providing. Thank you for doing that and shining the light on how so many women and men, but so many women have so much to give. And, you know, why not feed that passion to be of service in different ways so that you can just express how you show up in the world and how you can help. Oh, I love it. Sheila, thank you for being here.

Thank you.

So happy you're in my network now.

Yeah, exactly. And I hope that your back gets better. Thank you.

Already feeling a little better now. All right, everyone, I hope you're inspired.

You know, who could they reach out.

To, Sheila, if they had more questions, would they go to your site and look at all your free materials first?

Yeah. And I mean, on LinkedIn, we're huge. I mean, they certainly can reach out to us as well. I mean, it. Just reach out to infowomenintheboardroom.com I mean, there's a form on our site, too, to be added to our mailing, you know, email list to receive our newsletters. So.

And I'm hoping that leaders of organizations that want to help their female executives will also reach out to women in the board.

Absolutely. I mean, we. You know, I do a lot of speaking, and, I mean, I just have a lot to say.

You have a lot to say. Can't wait to hear more of it, Everyone. I hope this is inspiring to you. Let's go out and be brave in the way we say. I'm ready for more, and I will be of service in a bigger way when I step up to that. I hope that's helpful. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next time.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks, Sheila.