Finding Brave 69: 7 Ways To Leverage Your Introvert Edge in Sales, with Matthew Pollard

Hello everybody. Kathy Caprino here and welcome to Finding Brave. I am so thrilled I can't even sit in my chair to introduce you to my amazing guest, Matthew Pollard. Matthew, thank you for being here. Matthew is going to just blow your socks off, especially if you're an introvert, which I have a whole special place in my heart for. So let's just not even waste one more second. Let's just jump in. Matthew, we are talking about the seven ways to leverage your introvert edge in business and sales. And I have to tell you folks, every time I talk to Matthew, I was just telling him before, I'm kind of lit on fire. You have a magic gift, Matthew. You do. No wonder your book was. What is it? Number one. Number two. Number two book for introverts. It's such a. So everyone, let me tell you about Matthew. Matthew Pollard is responsible for 5, 5 multimillion dollar business success stories in his home country of Australia, all before the age of 30. Wow. His humble beginnings, the adversities that he faced that you're going to hear a little bit about, and his epic rise to success are inspirational stories of how anyone with the right motivation and strategies can achieve anything they set their mind and heart to. Today's the best selling author whose book the Introvert's Edge has received endorsements from Harvard, Princeton, Neil Patel, Marshall Goldsmith, just to name a few. He's been featured on Fox, NBC, Fortune, Forbes, Inc. On my blog, Entrepreneur, CEO. And if that isn't enough, he's also the founder of Small Business Festival, which Inc. Has named top three national conferences for small businesses. What are you doing with your time, Matthew? I don't know, but you're really cranking it out. Thank you for being here. Thank you.

I'm ecstatic to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Oh, you're so welcome. All right, let's. So let's jump in. But first I want everyone to hear your story of kind of how you started out and the challenges you faced. But before we do that, I just want to say to folks this. I am an extrovert and I've always lived in an extrovert world, not understanding what introversion is. And even when I was in the corporate world, I remember meetings with staff where they weren't answering as quickly and brainstorming as fast. And I'd leave going, wow. I guess they really don't know their stuff as much. I just cringe to even admit that. But I didn't see it until my son grew up. He's 21. And he's an introvert. And I see how he struggled, and I even see how in class, in college, he has been, I would call it full on discriminated against that, you know, it's the extroverted football player kid who's raising his hand, going, yeah, and kind of dominating the classroom conversations where an introvert is just not going to be like that. So I have such a passion for helping introverts bring to life and to light their amazing advantages. So hit it. Hit it. Matthew, tell us a little about where you got started so we can put into context your amazing success here.

Thank you. I think that the biggest thing that I learned, because I did have a lot of struggles growing up, and I think that the adversities that we have in life kind of see the success of our future. And. And I think that a lot of people that you see that speak from stage, that talk on podcasts, they didn't have it easy when they first started. And I don't think my stories, I think it's pretty online with that. I mean, when I grew up, I had a reading speed of a sixth grader. I mean, I had terrible acne. I had this photo that I show people in keynote presentations of me at my sister's wedding. And you want everything to be perfect at your sister's wedding? And there was nothing I could do about this face. It was just red. And, you know, I had braces. But I got diagnosed with this concept called Erlen Syndrome. And up until then, I'd been misdiagnosed with dyslexia. But basically what it means is I put on a pair of glasses and I magically can read. And that was a turning point for me.

So how old were you when that happened?

16. So I had a reading speed of a sixth grader at that time. And that didn't mean that I could put the glasses on and magically read like everybody else in my age group. It meant that I could start the process of learning to read. Two years, like, the whole way through high school, I hustled and hustled and hustled, and the world didn't work for me like it worked for everybody else. But those two years, I worked so hard, but my family could see it. I got to the end and I actually got into the top 20% of my state, and it was great. But I'd worked so hard. I hadn't spent any time focusing on what comes next. It was just about getting to that point. And. And I remember talking to my parents and saying, Look, I'm not sure what to do. And my dad could see that if I had gone to university at that point I would have just spun out. And so they suggested, and I suggested that I took a gap year, but not sitting on the couch like a lot of people do in their gap years or going on holidays. I literally suggested that I go and get a job for 12 months just so I can find myself and look for the thing that I wanted to be doing with my life. And so I took a job at a real estate agency. And you know, most people that know me or see me, they see me as extroverted now, but I would. I wasn't the guy at the front, I was the guy in the back office doing data entry, trying, you know, don't talk to me, I'm here to find myself, you know, that's who I was. And my boss comes up to me like three weeks into my job and he said, matt, I'm sorry, we got some head news for you. The company's decided to shut down this office. You're out of a job.

Wow.

I've been there three weeks. It was just, it was horrible. And it was coming into Christmas and like Christmas in the US versus Australia is very different. I mean it's summer over there at Christmas time, so people go on holidays. On the 20th of December we're taking our Christmas and summer break. Like not the people aren't coming back till the 15th or 20th of January. I mean, you run a business, I run a business. Who's hiring just before a month long holiday? Nobody, except for these things called commission only jobs. And that was what I found in our version of the advertisements for jobs called the classifieds. And I went in for a job interview and I wore, I remember I wore this suit, it was like black shined in the sun. I had this lime green shirt, this post office red tie. That's all I owned. No, you know what, I went in for that. But because I was the only one that showed up for this job interview wearing a suit, I had potential. So they put me in the door to door business sales team instead of the residential sales team. Now after five days product training and not a single second of sales training, I get thrown on this road and it's called Sydney Road in Melbourne, Australia, but it's like a thousand doors on each side. Which sounds great because if you're going to get told no, why not have not far to walk to the next one. But I had this realization just before I walked into the first door I didn't know what to say. No one had actually told me what to do when I.

What were you selling? What were you supposed to be selling?

I was selling telecommunications. So, you know the people that walk into businesses saying, hey, I know your telecom plans. This price, we can save you money. That was what I was supposed to do. So I knew all about the product. And me being very diligent, I learned a lot about the product because I wanted to be able to explain it. But then I get into the door, realizing it had nothing to do with that. I had to actually get them to talk to me first. So, I mean, I was politely rejected in the first door. Then I was sworn at. And then my personal favorite, I got told to get a real job. I mean, that was the only. The door after door, I just got rejected and rejected and rejected and. And then I got to the 93rd door and I actually made a sale. I mean, this person, basically, they wanted to change plans. It was just. I think it was Zig Ziglar that said, I mean, eventually, if you strap a business card to a dog and send them into the city, eventually they'll make a sale. Me, that was my 93rd door. I mean, I remember I walked out, I'd made $70, and I was ecstatic.

Wow.

For about 45 seconds, right? I mean, I then had the realization that I'm going to do this again tomorrow and the next and the next and next. So, I mean, that wasn't okay for me. But I couldn't exactly pick up a Zig Ziglar or Brian Tracy. I mean, those books would have taken me a year to read. I mean, my reading speed was just so bad that it would have been horrible for me. But YouTube was just starting to become known back then, and I made the. The push to learn what I called the sales system, or what they call the sales system. And I had to make this decision. I think this is critical for all introverts that are listening. I had to make the decision that sales had to be a systematic process, because if it wasn't, I wasn't in control and my year was going to be horrible. So I learned a couple of different processes for the sale, and I picked one. And then I started to focus on every element of that. And then day after day, I'd go out in the field for eight hours a day. Then, you know, the number of rejections would be less. And then I'd go home and I'd focus on eight hours worth of practice. And then the weekends, I got to do 16 hours of practice. And I just did that day after day for. It was, you know, I remember, you know, as soon it was like 75 doors, and then it was, you know, 48, and then it was 36, and then it was in its 20s, and then it was like 12.

Before you were making a sale, you mean?

Correct. Yeah. And I mean, I got it down to the fact that it was horrible. I mean, but I got it down to, like, one every three doors. I was making a sale.

What?

Yeah, it was. It was. I lost it.

I want this system. Is that what you teach? Is this the seven ways to leverage your introvert?

Yeah. You know what's interesting? And I think this is. This is a real key point for me. I mean, in six weeks, I went from terrified to sell to. I mean, my manager pulled me in, six weeks later, they printed out the national sales report, and I was the number one salesperson in the company six weeks later. And it really wasn't a lot of work. I mean, sure, I mean, it was a lot of work for six weeks, but when you put it in the perspective of life, I mean, a lot of these people that listen to podcasts like this, they want to create their dream business. They want to go out and make great money for their families. And yet a lot of times us introverts, we sit there and go, well, that's not possible for us. And it's like this gift of gab wall we set ourselves. And I had to convince myself that the wall didn't exist and I could learn a system. And as soon as I did that and put real work behind it, everything changed. And I think that's one key point that most people need to take from this, is that we put these barriers up, but we haven't validated that those barriers are actually accurate.

I love it, but I have so many questions. Let me just start with this one. You're going to talk about these seven ways to leverage your introversion. But do you feel like that system that you created, how do I want to put this? Works better for introverts? In other words, if you handed me that system, Ms. Extrovert, it wouldn't work so well for me.

Do you think so? There are a couple of answers to that question. So, in truth, both introverts and extroverts can learn this system. But here's the natural difference. An introvert, really, we're kind of terrible at selling, starting out. So if for us, we gravitate to a system, and then when we start to see Results, we hold onto that for dear life. Now, the other natural benefit is when somebody rejects us, our feelings are hurt if it's about us, but if it's an external system, we can treat it like a science experiment. It's not about us, it's about perfecting that overall system.

Do you feel extroverts don't do that so well, like extroverts? If you reject me and it's really the system, I'm taking it to heart.

A bit, little, little more extrovert. So it's order. Extroverts don't have. They don't have as much of an issue with rejection. But here's the thing they struggle with. They are really excited about the fact they can just wing it. And they love the fact they can just say things off the cuff, which means it's always slightly different. And while, you know, I did this, I did this work with a commercial real estate company out of Austin, Texas. And like, there was a whole group of people that were introverted. Like one guy, Thomas, was like, you know, in the last six months, I've made one appointment. It's borderline useless. I mean, you're not going to stay in the job very long. Right? But the extroverts were actually worse. I mean, these were hyped up on coffee bulldog salespeople, like fists on the table, yelling at the phone, like, can't imagine anything worse. Right? But the thing was that the extroverts were making these appointments, but they were beating people into appointments where the introverts were just too scared to do it. But the extroverts were actually creating a better or worse brand experience. So. So what happened was by teaching them both the system, the extroverts actually benefited from it faster and they got better results. But what happened over time is they moved away from the system because they liked winging it. They were proud of the fact that their natural ability was able to give them such benefit while the introverts held onto it. Well, the guy Thomas ended up the number one salesperson in that company in about six months. He actually was the first junior partner to win what they call the top Dog award, which is even beating out all the principals of the company. And the key was that he just became student of it. So I think the major difference is an extrovert's ability to sell is better at the beginning, but it's largely based on their mood. So they're having a great day. You know, everything's going well, sales are up, they have a fight with their husband, their wife, their mother, their father, sales plummet and it takes time. So sales becomes more of a roller coaster ride. And the difference is an introvert. I mean, we grab hold of a system. It doesn't matter what's going on in our lives. We just run the program. And we always get consistently better day after day. And sure, you might get some minor fluctuation based on the people we're speaking to that day, but the sales are always improving. So the reason why an introvert in my world beats an extroverted salesperson hands down is the exact same. While you may get a wonderful carmaker that makes a perfect, you know, makes a beautiful handmade vehicle, but Henry Ford is always going to have less defects over time because he obviously has a process and it runs through the production line. So if you. If you're always trying to create repeatable and improving results over the long term, you'll always get much better outcomes.

Oh, my gosh. All right, give us these ways. I want to know what your process was. Does it relate. Can I know your process of selling telecom door to door and getting every third sale? What? What was it? I'm dying to know. You're a good storyteller here, Matthew.

Taking notes. The major thing firstly is getting people to understand that sales is a process. So it is a series of steps, and each one should build. I mean, the reason why Harvard and Princeton endorse the book is because it's a different way of selling. They shouldn't, like, sales done well should be you serving the customer right. They shouldn't be bulldog techniques. They shouldn't be hard closing. And because it's not done well, we get to the end and we're like, so do you want to buy something? And we feel awkward about it, but it's because we did everything else wrong. If you do everything well, the sale should just become a natural outcome. And that's really what the difference has got to be. But for an introvert, one of the things we've got to do is we've got to understand it is a natural step, series of steps, and each step has its use. And the goal is that once we get a solidified structure. We were talking before we got online about Derrick Lewis and the fact that he goes, wrote my book and he's actually on the COVID of the book. But it wasn't supposed to be that way at the start. You know, I got him from struggling to make any money to making phenomenal money. And then all of a sudden, halfway through writing my book because I asked him to work with me on the book because he was like a perfect case study. He comes to me, he says, matt, the market's changed. And my natural question when somebody ever says something like that is, when did you decide that? And he said, you know, I'm talking to all these customers, and I'm following this process exactly the way you told me to do it. And then the customers are disappearing, they're going away, and I'm not hearing back from them. And I said, you said you're doing things exactly the same way. Yeah, exactly the same way. Really? Well, I might have changed a few things, changed everything. Because what happens is introvert or extrovert. If we grab hold of a system, as we get more confident, we try to become more efficient. So we start to shorten stories, we start to change things a little bit. We hear an objection once, and we're like, oh, maybe I'll include that at the beginning because my other customers will be interesting, you know, interested in that. So the first thing that I do is I help you realize that what we've got to do first is get a system together. But then once you've got it to a point where it's working for you, it's like a science experiment. If you change multiple things at once, you don't know what's blowing up in your face. You only want to change one thing at a time. Now, for introverts and what I'm going to do today, because the seven steps, it's probably going to be a fair bit of detail to go into. So what I want to do is I want to cover off on the first step, which is the building rapport. Because for me, I think introverts developing a relationship can get pretty uncomfortable sometimes. And then I want to focus in detail on. On the two steps that really make a massive difference for introverts. But the biggest one for me was I was always one of those uncomfortable. Like, I go and meet you for the first time, and I just. I was uncomfortable and there. And I'd read all these books and it says, look for something in their office and try and strike up a conversation. But for me, that always felt inauthentic. And I just. I always would say the wrong thing. Like, I wasn't big on sports. So I'd go in and I'd see something to do with football. And it would only be a matter of seconds until they realized I knew nothing about football. So it just. It didn't work. So what I realized, though, is that I went, if I was going into somebody's home, if I asked to take off my. If I asked them if they wanted me to take off my shoes, they would see that as respectful. And I would talk about the fact that my, you know, my wife hates it when, you know, you know, people. Contractors come into the house or people come into the house and they don't often take their shoes off because, you know, it's the home, like you walking around on there. And all of a sudden it would develop this natural relationship between me and them. And they went, oh, back then, he's a good kid, right? So, you know, because of that, it made a massive shift. When I go into people's offices, people would ask me if I wanted a cup of coffee. And after 12 o', clock, I would make a joke. Like, you know what's funny? I do a lot of these meetings. If I have a coffee at every single one, I'll be bouncing off the wall. So after 12 o', clock, I have this rule of water only. And then when I got to later on in life, I went to South America and I developed an absolute love for mate tea, which is M a t e mate tea. And it has the same natural caffeine effects as coffee, but without all the highs and lows. So I would get there and people would ask me if I wanted coffee and say, actually, I've given up coffee because, you know, I found it was giving more me these highs and lows. So now I've graduated to martiti. And that would then lead to a whole conversation of them wanting to get up, give up coffee, or them saying they could never give up coffee. And we got to have a joke. But it was a completely manufactured rapport. And because of that, I didn't have to think outside about all these things that I was going to talk about. And because I knew that, I mean, I'd had that conversation a hundred times.

I wanted to ask you, can I stop you? So if I were to do that, I would feel inauthentic, I would feel like it's a script and I would feel ashamed.

But.

And I'm not saying you should, but that isn't how you see it, is it? That you see it, that I need a way to connect with this person. I don't want to have to make up something random and then have it go in a weird direction. Let me talk about the thing I always know works. That's how you see it, right?

One of the things you'll Learn about Introverts vs Extroverts Extroverts have lots of relationships and there's studies about the depth of their relationship. And I mean, you have amazingly deep relationships. And so there are extroverts that are very different. However, the average extrovert on the surface that hasn't gone through a lot of self development to learn things like active listening and to realize that they can have these deeper conversations, a lot of times will have a lot more surface level introvert. A lot of the times we struggle with meeting people, but the depth of the relationship we develop is huge. So we need a way of getting from A to B. So you insert something in there that allows you to have a laugh. All of a sudden we're now at ease and now I can start to be myself.

Oh, I love it.

Oh, I love.

So works. It so works. All right, so that's the rapport building. What are the next two steps?

So the biggest one I want to focus on next and this is really going to bring you into whether this is scripting ver versus being authentic versus inauthentic. And one of the things I find nobody does well, I mean, introverts, extroverted. I just spoke at the largest inside sales conference in the world in Chicago like last week. And it was all these people from Salesforce and Microsoft and IBM and all these big companies and introvert or extrovert alike. Nobody tells stories well, right? When you think about the stories we talk about how I met my wife, it starts off a little bit bulky and sometimes you're telling people, you're like, oh, they didn't enjoy that bit. Maybe I won't tell that next time. And then other times you're like, oh, they really enjoyed that part. Maybe I'll embellish a touch. I mean, soon it becomes a little bit of a theatrical masterpiece, right? I say this, they say this, we say this together, we look at each other, we smile and say, that's met, right? It's always that process we love. People love hearing stories, people love telling stories. And over time we get better and better at it. But in business, nobody tells stories. And you know the problem? The biggest hurdle I see, especially with introverts, is of course we want to be authentic. And a lot of times though, what we do is we go in and somebody tells us what we want, what they want, and we start telling them all the things that they can do. We give them all their options, we try to educate them. I mean, extroverts do this too. We over educate and then we hear because the customer's overwhelmed. I mean, they're like, well, 30 years of experience in 30 minutes. Okay, let me go and digest that. Can you write me a proposal? And so we go away, we write that proposal, and then they go with somebody else that made it simple, or they decide, let's just leave it for now. So the best thing that we can do is tell a story, just like we told the story about how we met our partner. But when somebody says to us, you know, so here are the things that I'm looking to do. We want to tell them a story of somebody just like them that needed what they're saying that they needed and how we worked with them to get an amazing result. Now, when you do this in a business format, the person's always, customer wanted this, so we gave it to them. That's the end result. You've got to remember there's a real person making this decision. And sometimes, I mean, I did this exercise in San Antonio in January and I got this person who was an introverted guy to tell this story. And he talked to me, he's a 3D printer. And he said, so the customer wanted to find out about 3D printing because they got this new product they wanted to create and they wanted a model. And I said, well, this is our price. And I said, you could go anywhere else and you could shop around, but what you'll find is we're a one stop shop. You'll have to get quotes from a bunch of people. And if you put all those together, we're likely going to be cheaper. Plus you only have to go to one person. So the customer decided to go with them. And they're cheaper to them. That's their story. And I said, okay, well, let me ask you a question. I said, the person that paid for this printing was as expensive? Oh, yeah, it cost about $40,000. Okay. Who was the person? Oh, it was this couple, a husband and wife, Pete. And I said, well, how did they come up with the $40,000? And he said, well, they'd been saving up. They didn't want to borrow the money from the bank they'd been saving up for the last six years to save up the 40,000 to be able to do it. Did they like their jobs? No, they hated it. That's why they were trying to get out of what they were doing. I said, you know, I don't have kids right now, but I would assume that if this all blew up in their face, would they feel guilty? Like, would they feel guilty because they've got A son. Would they feel guilty that they spent this $40,000 on a failed business as opposed to putting their kids through college? Probably, yeah. Where are they now? Did it work out? Yeah, the product worked. And now they're actually. They homeschool their kids and they travel through Europe while they're running this. So why wasn't any of that in the story? I mean, this is this amazing track record of this struggling family that wanted to do something and how they held their hand through the entire journey and safeguarded their decision, and now they have the life of their dreams. Either way, we're also cheaper. And I still get tingles telling these. If there's an emotional element you hear, you feel that? And I said, why wouldn't you tell that story? Now, when I told this to a person that I was a guy with a chronic sputter in Austin, he was a videographer, and he'd go in and he'd struggle enough to get the meeting, but then when he actually got told what they wanted, he'd get excited and he'd tell them all these things. And I said, tell him a story. You have a customer like them and the outcome that you gave them and make it emotional. But I want you to practice these stories because, I mean, his stutter got exacerbated when he was uncomfortable and selling was uncomfortable. So I said, practice and practice and practice these stories. And he's like, well, my whole brand's built on authenticity, man. I mean, I don't want to seem scripted. The problem is, as an introvert, we end up stuck in our head trying to work out what to say. And a lot of times what comes out is this massive education session. But secondly, if you tell a story of your own customer that's prepared, then you're still sharing what they need to make their decision. You're doing them a service, but you're actually not setting yourself up for failure. Now, he still had an issue with it because everybody's afraid of being that tally marketer calling at 6 o' clock at night with the robot voice. So I just said, well, what's the best actor you've ever seen? And for him, he loved Gangs of New York. And, you know, I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio is amazing in that movie. And I'm like, yeah, he just embodied the part. I said, but, you know, he's reading from a script, right? The difference is you learn it, you embody it, you practice it, and it's your story. So it's you. It's just a better version of you. Because it's reversed.

In fact, I love it. Now, I gotta ask you a question that I'm actually. This is why I love my podcast. I actually learn from my guests. Like, I can't wait to, to enact what you're talking about. But let me ask you this. I tend to, when someone calls me to pursue coaching, I tend to close almost every one of those calls. And I don't even like to call it closing, but there's a number of reasons for that. They've seen something of me and they're already halfway there. You know, if they have no money to work with me, we suss that out quickly and I give them other resources, but I tend to get that sale. Do you know what I mean? But I want to ask you this. I don't use the storytelling right after rapport, and I want to ask you where this fits in. And maybe I should. I will immediately say, tell me what you want coaching about what's the biggest challenge? And they immediately talk. And the truth is, I've heard this story 2,000 times, literally. So I would say I hear you, then I validate. Here's what I'm hearing. Actually, it's not really what you're saying, but I think you're really.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Yes. So the validation makes them realize, okay, I know what I'm talking about and I hear them. Then I'll say, here's what I would do with you if we work together. And I don't tend to use a story of someone else. Maybe it's the therapist in me. You know, I have to keep everything confidential, but I will share with them what would happen if we work together. The challenge, I think, is when I have to spit out. Now I'm 750 an hour, not 500. Those prices have just gone up. That's hard for me still. And there's emotional reasons why that's hard sometimes for me to say it. But do you feel that process really should have a storytelling in the beginning? Do you feel like I'm missing an important.

So there are a couple of elements. So a lot of people, firstly, I mean, you're Kathy Caprino, so you. They know who you are. Right. They. They've already built a relationship with you. Right. My clients are exactly the same. Right. A lot of people might have heard me on, you know, in the future, this podcast, and they'll reach out because something triggered and, and they'll want to talk to me. And that's different. Like the average person we're talking to is calling, or they're going to a networking event and they're trying to sell their product or service there. So it's very different. Now if they reach out to you, they've already developed for them to book a phone call with you. They've already developed a relationship, so they already feel that you can help. For a lot of the people we're speaking to, they have no idea what it is.

That's a big difference there. Gotcha.

So a story is a wonderful way of educating somebody that what you do, inspiring them, that it's possible for them, while also underlying the fact that you're the only logical choice to work with. Now, if we take a step back, I do exactly the same thing. When I have a phone call with somebody, I start the call, every call with, I'm so glad we get a chance to speak today. And sometimes I'll apologize for the wait, because sometimes it takes months to get a phone call with me. And then I'll say, now, obviously, I've checked out the notes that you've left me. I've checked out your website. But how I like to start all of these calls is to take a backward step for a second. And I'd love to hear exactly where you're at now, what you're struggling with, and how I can be the most help to you in the call that we have together today. And I will pause, and they will just unleash all of their problems, and that will generally lead to about five minutes worth of coaching. And then I will ask them if they've heard the story of Wendy. Now, if they say they've heard me on a podcast or something that I did tell the story of Wendy, then I will go, great. And then I'll say, so do you want me to summarize that again? Just because what I'm about to tell you leverages off that. If they say no, I tell them the story of Wendy because it's absolutely applicable to what they're doing. Because I take people through the process of understanding that sales is actually step three. For a lot of the business owners out there, if they don't have a message that separates them so they're still seen as a commodity. And if they're not focusing on a niche where customers are willing and wanting to pay them what they're worth, then they're making a lot of the heavy lifting in the sales process much harder than they need to. So I explain the Wendy story, and then I finish with, now, at this stage, I can do one of Three things. I can direct you to some great free content to help you continue that journey yourself.

Writing this down, I can talk to.

You about an academy I created for like minded service providers, or I can talk to you about what working with me looks like. Do you have a preference? Now, there's always a small percentage that will say the free content. And I honor that and I'll explain the free content. And you know, that way they've got some great resources that you know, I've seen double people's businesses in 60 days, so it'll still give them something that might send them back my way in the future. But in my mind I've offered people free phone call and some free help. So in my mind, because I believe the terms to sell is derived from the Scandinavian to serve. So as long as I'm serving a customer, I feel good about it. So if I've honoured the promise of listening to their concerns, giving them some advice and giving them a trajectory where they can continue to improve with or without me, I feel good about that. But what I've actually said is, are you giving me permission to sell to you? And then the customer will say the academy, the one on one service. And then I will explain that. And at the end I have a specific way I close a $1 trial. And then I have a specific way I close my one on one service. But here's the interesting thing. At the end of it I will say this. So one of the things you'll notice is you and I just went through a sales process and they'll be like, oh yeah, I noticed that. I said, well, one of the important things for me doing what I do is I need to use every experience that I have with my clients as a learning experience. So one of the things you'll notice is that you and I laughed and joked and probably and I had a great time. I'm not sure about you, but I actually quite enjoyed this process. And they're like, well, yeah, I did. And I said, this is the way sales is supposed to be. If it's done right, it should be a step by step process that's a lot of fun. And at the end you just get to work with a good friend you just created. And people are like, I got it. Now. The problem is we see it as a used car salesman job. And that gives this negative connotation that no one wants to be part of. And the truth is a close should never be done. See, the way I frame going to the end of it is you start With a trial close, like, which way would you like me to direct you? Or would you prefer a day or a night program? That's a simple question that says, I'm 90% interested. If they answer. And then you can say something innocuous like, so I just want to make sure the dates. Because I am booked out two months in advance, let's start working out the dates that will work for you. What I've just done is assumed that they're going to work with me. The assumptive close takes all the awkwardness off because the customer hates to say yes and a person hates to ask. So if we just all assume we're moving forward, more often than not, we all are.

It's just, oh, my God, I want to spend a day with you. Or 100 days. You mean before they even say I want the free or I want the blah, blah, blah. You say, what date? What dates? Or only when they've said yes. I think I'd love to. And before I even ask that question, I would love two things for you to tell us. When you're talking about your prices, I would love to hear how you pitch that when they're as high as mine or yours are much higher. I'm sure that. And I want this answer, Matthew, you know why I struggle so hard in selling, and I'm going to be so transparent. I often do a free webinar full of incredible content before launching a course. And the content is standalone. They love it, they get a ton of value. But also it maps to what the course teaches. So if you love that content, you're going to love this course. But what I do, which makes me incredibly uncomfortable, is there are slide after slide about what this course is going to give you, what people have said about the course and what you can expect. And here's the link. When I'm saying that would rather be doing anything else, I can't stand it. And you can tell in. And then I said to myself, why do you act like that? You're just telling them about the course and everything I say is true. I'm just so uncomfortable. It's so different from teaching, which is so crazy because I'm really just teaching about the course. Why am I struggling with that? And what's a better way to do that?

So one of the things you said is you don't say, you don't tell stories, and then you're saying, I use testimonials. What you've got to realize is you can join those two and then you can Teach through the stories, and they just so happen to tell the testimonials. Right? So when I get up and speak on stage or I do presentations or I do podcasts, a lot of times I'll tell a story of somebody that I worked with as the educational example, but then I will talk about the before and after, financially and emotionally. Right. And by doing that, I don't need to tell them the case studies at the end. Now, I can say, just like Derek's result, just like Alex's result, just like Wendy's result, but I don't have to gloss on it as much. Now, the price. So you asked about three questions there. So I'm going to start with pricing, because that's always a hinge point that people are scared.

Yes.

Now, you and I have a mutual friend, Judy Robinette. And Judy actually reached out to me a long time ago because she was just moving into the speaking industry, and she had an amazing book, how to Be a Power Connector. And, you know, it led to so many opportunities to speak that people would reach out to her to speak and they'd ask her how much she costs. And she grudgingly mentioned a really big number that she thought was big, which was actually small in the keynote world. And then they would go away and they wouldn't come back. So she came to me and she said, I'm not sure what's going wrong. And I said, well, firstly, you need to know you're undercharging like crazy, and that's scaring your customer because they want to make a safe choice. And by charging so little, they think that you're not a safe choice. You're not. Exactly. So we need to get that fee up. But if you're struggling with this amount, you're going to struggle mentioning this number. So here's what I want you to say. When they talk to you, you make sure they're the right fit. You have a whole conversation. And then before they get the opportunity to ask about price, because we hold off talking about price, I want you to say this now, generally, generally at this stage, people have a pretty good understanding of what working with me looks like. But before you reached out, you probably had a good understanding of what sort of cost it would be associated with working with me. So before you picked up the phone, what idea of price did you have in mind? And what it does is it puts the emphasis on the customer, because now he believes you're asking him whether he can afford you. So in his head, he's like, well, I'm going to. If he's the decision maker, his response is going to be, which it was, look, we've got, I know you probably charge more than this, but we can't afford to stretch past 20,000. And she's saying, well, that's four times what I was going to ask for. So that's great, but I need to make it seem like I'm more expensive. So what I'll do is I'll say, well, you know, usually the answer is yes, but I've just really enjoyed this conversation, Cathy, because of that. I'm really happy to do that for you, especially because it's at a date that I have available. Right. So now she's explaining why she's cheaper and the customer feels like he's getting a deal. Now sometimes the customer will say, well, I'm not sure what our budget is. And that means they're not the decision maker. So mentioning price, you're speaking to the wrong person. So you've embedded value with this person, but you need to talk about it with the person that is the decision maker. So you start navigating the conversation about who you need to be talking to next and then you're going to get that one group that's going to say, no, seriously, how much is it? And that's such a small fraction of people. But when you get to those answers, then you can mention a price. But what I found is when I started charging for coaching, I asked for that and they'd say I wasn't expecting any change from X number of dollars, five figures. And I was like, God, I was going to charge like a third of that and I still charge a third for those customers. But the next one I put my price up and the next ones I put my price up. And you know, now, I mean, I had the same emotional issues. I remember my dad used to break his back for what, you know, for in a month, what I charge for, you know, a series of coaching. But because customers have validated that it is worth that through a saying what they were willing to pay and it's still lower than that. And secondly, because of the return on investment, I feel congruent doing it. And I think this is the massive thing for introverts. You have to be congruent with what you're saying. So you can't just put a price tag out there and be okay with it. You need to have that validated. And there are ways to test that in a way that feels comfortable for you because once you've heard it enough Times you can say the price. And when somebody says, I don't think you were that, you can say, well, you're obviously not my ideal client then, because everybody else has said that way, right? So, but for me, I think, and you're very similar, the reason why you charge what you charge is because you know that the value that you provide is far outweighs that. So you, while there is some emotional issues around mentioning the number, which firstly, I never say, mention a price per hour. I talk about outcomes and I talk about packaging and you and I have spoken about that. But when I talk about it, I focus on outcomes and I mention a price for the overall outcomes. And I feel congruent with it because I know the ROI is long term. But for me to answer your trajectory question is I start talking about the exact process is the rapport element at the start. And then I ask a question. If you don't know enough about the customer, right. For me, questions and qualification you've got to do. But there's actually a scientific study now that talks about asking more than four questions actually has diminishing returns. The problem is people ask lots of questions because they're asking the wrong questions. So you've got to learn what questions to ask that lead people to the sale so you can ask, you get enough information for someone like you and I because they know our content so well, you ask what the problem in their business is and they know exactly what to tell you. So it makes it easier. Then I lead into a story and then I do my trial close, which is, do you want the free stuff, the academy or the paid? And then I then explain the program and I go into detail into the program and then I will go into the pricing and I'll explain the pricing, the payment plan. And one of the things that I always suggest is you have to completely desensitize yourself to the number, right? So if you're charging, like I'll give you an example. Like if I'm charging, you know, $4,200, I would say so I wouldn't say 4,200 because that scares me. I'd say 4,200. When I moved up to 10,000, I wouldn't make it 10,000, I'd make it 10 4, because 10 4, everyone's heard 10 4, you understand me? 10 4, right. So it becomes fun. But then I would go around saying, you know, it's 10 4, which is 5226. 26. And I would talk about it, I'd say it's 2600 eggs, 2600 mandarins, 2600 this. You've got to get used to the number. So when it comes out it's like it feels uncomfortable and then got to be assumptive. So for me, I have a $1 trial for starting my academy. So I do this thing where I say, I explain the payment that the price, I talk about the saving, I mentioned the payment plan, I talk about the fact that I do it that way to make it easier for people. I talk about the fact that they get lifetime access to everything. And then I mention a $1 trial because I believe that the best way to go in is to experience it for yourself. Lift up the hood, see the level of, detail it in the amount of support I give you. And then I make a joke like. And the way I see it is that way you're only risking a dollar and everyone's got a dollar, right? Everybody laughs and they say, so great. So I need to get you set up for the Facebook group. What's the email address for that? But they've just been laughing about the fact that they've got a dollar. So it's just become this. What you've done is you kind of short circuited the brain because it's having an enjoyable experience and everyone's got a dollar. And then the program speaks for itself. But I get them over that hurdle. When I'm talking about closing on a one on one, right? What I do is I explain the price, I explained the payment plan and I've gone right into detail about all the program, the homework, the results, that sort of thing. And then when I get to the end, I say, now does that sound like something that would work for you? And they'll say yes. And I say, great, so what I just need to double check because I am booked a couple of months in advance and I've already stated that I'm booked months in advance. So I've created that sense of urgency. And I say if you got your calendar in front of you and I booked the dates in and then I say, so what I need to do now, you know, obviously all the dates and the sessions and the payments are due before sessions. And I explain that and I say, but what I do need to do is take a quick deposit and the deposit then solidifies and I get the credit card details. You put the deposit before the dates. Less than 50% of people do it. You put the deposit after the dates are secured. It's like 95%.

You actually take their credit Card number on the phone. Seven, one, two, four. Wow.

Right? But the difference is if you add value, you do it in the right way, and you have this natural tradition trajectory. You've already booked the dates. So at that point, now, the occasional time, somebody will be like, oh, look, I don't really want to give the details over the phone. You say, no worries, I just sent you an invoice. Just pay it on your site, and then they pay it. But as a system, it's simple.

All right, one final question. Then I got to let you go because it's been 45 minutes. Do you actually talk? Allow people to book a call with you, even if you can see they're not your ideal market?

So as I get more popular, that's getting harder and harder. So I have had this rule. So for me, the answer up until about six months ago, absolutely yes. Right. Because two things. One is it's great practice, right? And for an introvert, if we don't stay on the phone all the time, we get rusty confronted with getting on the phone. Like me, I like to speak at least twice a month. Otherwise, I go and speak in front of a thousand people, and I'm like, oh, God, I'm speaking in front of a thousand people. If I spoke in front of 20 yesterday, it doesn't feel that big. So that's an important thing.

Interesting.

My book did 25,000 copies last year, and I'm getting all of these people want to book phone calls with me. So here's the thing. You could never book a phone call on my website, right? You have to give me your email address. I have to educate you first, right? So to get to the point where you can book a phone call, I've already qualified you to a certain point. Now what happens is I will get a salesperson, you know, because I work exclusively with business owners, right? That's. That's what I love to work with. But my book, even though it was written for the small business owner, I get salespeople all over the world, especially in technology sales, highly technical sales, like, you know, financial planning, accounting. They're picking up this book all over the place. And they work for organizations, and I really want to be selling to their boss. So the rule that I've made is, yes, I will still talk to you. However, you have to have read my book, which is the only way that you'll find me anyway, generally. But you've got to have read my book cover to cover. And in the back, there is a video series with free bonuses that Literally train you on how to implement into your business. And all the case studies like this, like seven and a half. There's amazing huge amounts of content in there, right? And for me, when somebody books a phone call, I send it to my support team. Well, my support team check it for themselves now. But basically what they do is they go in and say a, are they part of the inside circle? Because that means they bought the book and they opted in for the bonuses. Now, most people don't do the bonuses without reading the book, otherwise it doesn't make sense. Then we confirm that they've watched all the bonuses because if they haven't, I was getting on these phone calls with people who ask me questions. I'm like, that's on chapter five. There's an exact example on chapter five. Or that's in that video. So it was a waste of my time because they hadn't invested in themselves first. But as soon as people have done all of that legwork, then yes, I'm happy to invest in helping them. Because for me, I mean, the reason why I created Small Business Festival was my way of giving back. And I like giving back to people that invest in themselves. Now, in truth, in time that's going to be less and less possible. But I continue, I mean, I think on LinkedIn we put out nearly 400 videos last year, all for free. You know, all free content, all great value. You know, we put out a podcast that did amazingly well. We've got so much content that we put out like you do. And for me, I'm going to continue to do that. I mean, I learned off YouTube. I feel like it's my now duty to give back. So I will always do what I can. And as long as I can keep it up, absolutely, the people that work and do the work, I will be happy to support.

I am so floored. Matthew, you're number, what are you number 68, 69 of my episodes. I've done 600 plus Forbes interviews. I don't think I've spoken to anyone. Who. I'm going to cry. Who? Well, let me tell you what I hear. You know, you've turned your mess into a message. You've tip. But you're obviously a brilliant mind and you dive deep to understand everything you're doing and you do, am I right? And you do it for yourself first. That's why you, you're, you know, so great at all this. But then you can't wait. I mean, we could go on for three hours. I can tell you can't wait to just share it trans. Trans formatively. And that's your heart, that's your spirit. That makes me cry. And I learned so much. I don't even want to stop. But I know we have to. Folks, if this didn't help you find brave and close your power gaps. I mean, actually all seven of my power gaps in my book coming out, you've touched on from not recognizing your talents to being afraid to ask for what you deserve to not challenging what doesn't feel right. It just goes on and on. So this isn't just sales to me. This is how to shine in the world. Doing what you love and helping others. I love it.

I love it.

All right, where can people get all of this? Now close the deal, give me some links and we will share them all below.

Well, thank you for that. I mean, one of the things, my publisher hates me for saying this, you don't have to buy my book. One of the things that I'm so focused on, I mean, I put the entire seven step process because we touched on a couple of the elements. But in an episode this long, it's hard to cover them in detail. So one of the things I know a lot of authors put a lot of fluff in the first chapter of the book, but you can get my first chapter@theintrovertsedge.com now in there, it outlines the full seven step process and you know, it's all about for me, it's not full of fluff. It's a full seven step process. I mean, it's the reason why I founded National Introverts was week for me. My focus is on really confronting that stigma around introversion. So that's why I put the whole seven steps in. If you do nothing more than download that chapter@the introvertsedge.com grab those seven steps, look at what you're currently saying to customers and put it into those seven steps. Now, if it doesn't fit, you should throw it out. You shouldn't be saying that to somebody. And then you'll realize there's some gaping holes for an introvert. You'll probably find that the rapport element needs some repair. But. But the biggest gaps are going to be asking the right questions and telling amazing stories. Once you fill those gaps, and there's a great template in the book on how to create great stories. But once you fill that gap, which, you know, I go a long way to showing you how to do in chapter one, you'll double your sales in your next 60 days. So my Suggestion would be download the first chapter and start working on understanding sales as a process and start working towards mending that.

Oh, Matthew, I can't thank you enough. Holy cow. And where can people learn where you're speaking? Is it mostly for conferences and they have to give me a link, you know, for where people can just, you know, if I were you folks, I just soak up every word Matthew has to say. Oh my gosh, it's so. And I'm so excited that we're both with the same publisher now. HarperCollins leadership. That is so fun.

Absolutely. I mean I was saying to you before, so the harpercon's leadership, we just signed our second book to bring out the Introverts Edge networking. So we're super excited about that. For people that are listening at home, I mean, yes, you can see me speak. I have an events calendar@Matthew Pollard.com events.

Perfect.

So the podcast, the Introverts Edge, we have a whole podcast. We've interviewed amazing people like Jamie Masters, who I introduced you to recently. Amazing. The founder of Ugg Boots, the billion dollar shoeskin. Yeah. So he's Australian, so he's easy to get help. Another resi. But you know the founder of Digital Marketer talking about the fact that you need to speak to people in the real world. You can't hide behind your computer for life. Ivan Meisner talking, you know, the founder of BNI talking about that he's an introvert and he's like the lead person. Tom Ziglar talks about his father, Zig Ziglar, the most well known sales trainer on the planet. And he was an introvert. So we keep talking. So all of these great stories. So I would check out the Introverts Edge podcast, you know, check out all the. I mean there is so much value on my blog. There is so much value on all of my, all my social profiles and so many videos. Right. One of the biggest things for me is that you make a decision to start your journey towards. So many people are great at their functional skill, their small business, what they do. The problem is we avoid all of those things that are external to that, especially those things we find uncomfortable. But the problem is if we avoid sales, if we avoid marketing, we're really just counting the days until our business is quite closing and that's the last thing we want. I mean, that doesn't mean, I mean, don't listen to the people that say you have to create a million dollar business. But if you want to create a great six figure income doing what you love in a business that revolves around you, then you've got to focus on finding an authentic way to get your message out there and in a way of selling that's congruent to you so you don't have to feel like a used car salesperson.

Oh my God. I love every word. Matthew, thank you so much. You so deserve all the incredible sales success you're having because of all that you put in the world. I'm so grateful for your time, everybody. We're so interested in what you got out of this. I mean, I took notes. Notes on my own podcast. Please share when you see this on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram. I'm starting to love Instagram. Will you tell us what you got out of this? That I applied number one or I learned to tell a different story. We would so love to hear it. It's meaningful to us that this is helpful to you. So thank you. Have an incredibly brave week. And thank you so much, Matthew. Come back soon.