Finding Brave 71: Developing Your Bossed-Up Identity and Losing the Martyrdom, with Emilie Aries

Hello everybody. Welcome to Finding Brave. How's it going? Let's all take a breath. We need to have a brave well being moment. I and my amazing guest, Emily Aries, we're both in the throes of big things. You launching your amazing book, Emily. But it isn't for the faint of heart doing all this, is it? It's. It's what we're going to talk about. All about bossed up identity, losing the martyrdom. We're going to talk all about it. But thank you so much for joining me in the middle of your launch.

Thank you for having me, Kathy. It's great to be on your podcast after. I feel like I kept running into you over the past six years and our paths have crossed in so many unique ways. It's a joy.

It is a joy. Especially during the she Summit. Bacardi, right, that last fall. Yeah. A little more than a year ago.

That's right. Yep.

God, that was fun. Golly. And we were talking about how to ascend. Right? That was our.

Absolutely.

Love it. All right, everybody, you're just gonna, you know, hang on to your hat because Emily doesn't. Doesn't. What's the expression? Old punches, pull, punch, whatever. There we go. She's gonna tell it like it is and we need to hear that. But let me tell you a little bit about Emily. Emily Aries is a political organizer turned award winning women's leadership consultant. I'm sorry, I need a little more coffee, I think. After her own battle with burnout, Emily started bossed Up a personal and professional training organization in 2013 to help other women strive for more sustainable success. Oh, that's so good. Emily hosts the bi weekly Bosta podcast where she breaks down listener career conundrums, interviews expert guests, and share strategies for personal and professional success. So there's Emily in a nutshell. All right, girl, start. What is a identity? Tell us what that is.

Yeah. So I feel like when I came out of my own battle with burnout, I truly felt at that time like I was sitting in a passenger seat in my life. Like I was just watching life go by my window, had no control, had no agency, had no ability to impact my outcomes. And that feeling of losing control over your life, of just going through the motions, of barely trying to keep your head above water, or feeling like no matter what you do, you're not going to be able to move forward towards your goals, is such a helpless and hopeless at times feeling that can lead folks to burnout or can lead to more serious mental Health disorders like chronic anxiety and depression. The antidote to all of that is cultivating what I call a boss identity. It's known in the literature as cultivating a leadership identity. But here at Boss Stop, I like to spice things up with a little bit of hip hop because hip hop really has inspired me because it's all about writing your own come up story, really being the author of your own destiny in the face of systemic injustice and cultivating that identity. Seeing yourself as the agent of change in your life is something that doesn't happen overnight, doesn't come easily, but can be practiced and cultivated.

I love it. All right, I got questions already. Can I please. You and I are on the same page in that. Let me even start here if I could. Emily, you know I believe, and I'm sure you do too, but push back. If not, we can intervene at a number of levels to help women thrive and succeed. The individual, the organizational, the institutional, and the societal. Right. I think you are like me probably in that, my happiest place and my most powerful place is with the individual. So when I talk about what you're about, you talk about and my word is closure, power gaps. I mean, I'm always scanning for where are you not feeling powerful, why, where that come from and how are you co creating that. But every once in a while, not every once in a while, regularly I'll hear from other women saying, hey, Kathy, I think you're blaming the victim here. So you mentioned institutional barriers, but I would love to hear how you navigate between understanding that there are institutional societal barriers, but going with the bossed up direction. Sure, let me hear.

It's such an interesting question because I think it's really easy for any reader or listener to paint any of us who are in the ring, right, doing the work, writing on Forbes like you do so regularly and so courageously and say, oh, you're blaming the victim or you're looking at it one way or the other. The reality is it's complicated. I started my career focused exclusively on systemic change. I started my career with my political science degree in hand as a state director serving on behalf of the Obama administration, working every single day to lobby Congress or lobby state House legislatures for the kinds of system change that levels the playing field for all people, regardless of age, sex, race, creed, whatever.

How'd that go?

You know, there's a term from organizing that I carry into my work today known as theory of Change. At some point, I lost faith in the theory of change behind my work. I no longer believed that my effort and energy was best put towards a Congress that felt very broken. And it certainly feels more broken now in a lot of ways.

Darn direction did it right.

So I wanted to get more instantaneously impactful. And I feel like you're saying exactly what I believe, which is we can intervene in different touch points. My goal is to empower women to do the radical act, which is take care of ourselves. To bring that same kind of advocacy that we would bring to lobbying Congress or standing up on behalf of causes and nonprofits and charities we care about, or standing on up on behalf of a friend and stand up on. Of behalf, on behalf of ourselves to draw the boundaries we need at work to have a healthy and happy and sustainable life. My new theory of change, and it's not that new really, but my theory of change these days is that if you give women the tools to advocate for themselves, they are better able to turn around and advocate for others as well. That we can lift as we climb.

I love it. I love it. And I want to add this. I feel that if we only look at the system, we're actually crippling the individual. I mean, I'm. I feel that. That agitated about it. If all we do is try to turn the Titanic around. And in some ways, I think we're on a Titanic and it's now and we're all just, you know, running to put our life preservers on, but we're not steering it differently individually. I think we're gonna lose ground. I think it can't just all be about the system.

Yeah.

What do you think?

I think there's a conversation happening on college campuses right now that especially Gen Z, tends to identify with broader systems. Right. I am, you know, you might say I am a white presenting, cisgendered straight woman who is of, you know, upper middle class means. And when I look at those intersections of race, class, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, there are a whole bunch of privileges wrapped up in that that make it easier for me to say I'm the boss of my life. That said, you know, many little brown and black girls and boys are raised hearing this message, you have to be twice as good to go half as far. And I too bristle at that a little bit, because regardless of whether that is true or not, which it very much is, oftentimes, you know, fixating on what power we don't have, as opposed to focusing on what power we have and how to get more of it and share more of it, can be debilitating. So nobody's you know, I'm not here to police anyone's self sense of agency in their life. But I am here to say that it's something we can all develop even in the face of injustice. And that by living in your own power is in fact a radical transformational move, a boss move that actually shows little girls and little boys who are looking up at you and little non gender identifying people looking up at you thinking that's what it takes to be a good person. That's what it takes to be a strong woman. I want to set a model for unapologetic power over my own.

I love every word. I couldn't agree more. Not that I only love words that I agree with. Not true. So part of this I know in your book, which I didn't give the title bossed up A grown woman's guide to getting your shit together. I guess now we're going to be an explicit podcast.

Beep it out there. But yes.

So one thing you talk about, which I'd love to hear about is we'd love to hear martyrdom. What is this martyrdom mindset that you see and talk about?

So I have done a lot of research in the past six years to understand how burnout manifests specifically and so dramatically for women in particular. And the way I can best describe it is something I call the martyrdom mindset, which to me is a combination of two very powerful forces in our nation and in our history. One is the Protestant work ethic. Those good old Puritans who landed on Plymouth Rock who truly felt that leisure time was evil.

Right?

Idle hands are the devil's workshop, was their original saying. And this idea that has been at the core of Americans and what we pride ourselves as is being efficient and productive and and ever constantly improving and producing product that has gotten our nation very far. But it can also be perverted. It can also be at this point, leave us in this churn and burn rat race that leaves people believing that their worth is equated only to their productivity, to their contributions. And that is hard enough and that impacts men and women alike. But when you take that philosophy that my worth is rooted in my work, and then you intersect gender roles into that or the national history we have of the relatively recent history of women entering the workforce in mass after World War II, women are faced with competing gender hats or gender roles that we play to different people. This idea that we now have our worthiness hinges on our work product and on what a caring, kind, sweet, loving friend, mother, daughter, sister, we are as well. So when you combine the role overload that so many women are told our entire lives we must perform in this way and take care of everyone else around us with the Protestant work ethic, it leaves us feeling like the only way to be successful, whatever the hell that means, is to martyr ourselves to get there, to stop sacrifice our well being in the pursuit of success. And that is a huge problem.

That's 10 books in and of itself. And don't you think that there's this other piece which is the kind pleasing and you know, I just love interviewing experts on the patriarchal world we're in and gender equality and how men are suffering as much as women, just in very different ways. But the everybody knows what feminine still is supposed to be.

It hasn't changed at all.

Maybe this, it hasn't. Pleasing, attractive, malleable, vulnerable, emotional, empathic.

Not too emotional.

Yeah. And certainly not forceful. You know that women are punished literally. I mean the research shows forceful woman, you're not competent, you're not worth, you're not valuable. But then you got that thing smashing up against now we need you to be more productive in the workforce.

Right.

And okay, now you got me in a smaller box.

And women in full time working households, right. Dual earner, full time working heterosexual partners. We see that men are doing more around the house than ever before. Hooray. But it's still half of what women are doing in terms of sheer hours. So we live in a world that values that always on availability to our clients, our customers, our bosses. And yet we also expect women to shoulder the house care and childcare work at twice the rate than our male counterparts are doing. So it leaves us in a very small box and we have to look good while doing it right. That perfection like perfecting, performing and pleasing. I describe it as kind of like tap dancing on a tightrope. We're expected to pull off this act with a smile on our face and get people to respect us but not fear us and, and find us vulnerable but not emotional, you know, and it's impossible. It's an impossible.

I have so many personal stories about when I've simply just asserted myself and in not some biachi way, just hey, listen how you behave there. I really have to call you on it when it's a man. I've had at least one guy recently say, you know, I'm single now and dating or engaging in online dating and my friend said to me, you know, I just want to tell you you're an incred strong woman. And that's going to be hard for most guys you're ever going to come across.

Really, Kathy, that's got to be our next rabbit hole of research to dive into, because there's an entire chapter in the book on assertive communication, understanding it, how to play with the biased world that we live in, how to hack into it for our own purposes, how to hone our assertive voices when we want. And then the end of the book, I dive into my relationship and how the women I work with at our bossed up boot camp programs that started the whole thing in 2013, and I still do them five times a year today. We always have a licensed relationships counselor on hand because there's always tension, at least in heterosexual dating markets. Right between the powerful woman and the attractive woman. And the data, I have to admit, is not great. So it leaves me wanting. Honestly, this process of writing this book left me with more questions than answers in that front. But looking at how we surround ourselves with communities of courage, whether that comes in the form of a romantic partner or not is, I think the question on a lot of strong, powerful, independent women's minds these days.

And I think if I, If I had to say, if I had to bet a million dollars on this, I think that what's really gonna move the needle is how we raise our children from the. You know, I think that some of this is so rigid. We're doing our best.

Yeah.

Men and women. But this is so deep. And those biases really, totally.

And the media narratives are changing, which makes me happy. Right. We're seeing more fierce characters in Game of Thrones. Oh, no spoilers. No spoilers. But if only. We loved strong women on the national political stage for being strong and fearless and audacious in the same way we love these fictional characters. There's a real psychological disconnect, but the media landscape is so changing. That makes me really happy. Hollywood is certainly not at the forefront of progress on every level, but I do think that the writers rooms and the messages we're seeing are changing. And that's. That's for the better too.

I think you're right. I think you're right. Now tell us about. Oh, wait, I did want to understand this.

Yeah.

So I've used the word martyrdom. Not recently, but in talking about people I know, family members, etcetera, and the martyrdom, the way I define it is it's not a conscious. It's not a conscious way of operating in the world. It's. It's self abnegation that Oh, I have to do this.

Yeah.

And then you tell me what you feel about it. But the martyrs I know get. It's a reciprocal thing. They get benefit in their minds and hearts for being a martyr. Oh, I'm selfless and I've given everything. It's really difficult to be with. Do you feel that, that that's what you're seeing with the martyrs?

Yeah. You know, I compare martyrdom to burnout in a couple different ways. But I'll be honest with you. The chapter is called Mama the Martyr. Because this is my whole career thus far is a reaction to my mother in a lot of ways.

It's brave to say, yeah.

And my mom and I have a really good, great relationship. But she believes that suffering is necessary success. She throws herself on that sword every single time. And I remember thinking to myself, 10 years ago, I was in a relationship with a man who struggled with alcoholism, who I felt like I had to save his life. That was, you know, that was my half of the bargain was to help my. Not my husband helped my then boyfriend, you know, get the help he needed to recover from his addiction issues, even though he very much did not want my help. And I felt like I had to get up every day and save the world. Right. Save the country, contribute to the Obama administration, deliver on hope and change, and be there at every moment for my volunteers who needed me. Right. Because they were relying on me. And there is a self congratulatory feeling beneath that that ultimately and almost always results in resentfulness. So that short term feeling of this person needs me gives way to, you know, I didn't ask you to interfere in my life in that way. Like unsolicited martyrdom continuously leaves that person, like Oprah says, trying to pour from an empty cup. And 10 years later, I've worked very hard to change my own patterns. And I liken it to kind of being handed a role from your mother or your parent figure and looking at that role, reading for that role and thinking, I've got a few notes, you know, I've got a few things.

I want a few questions here.

I want to iterate on this role. I'm not going to reject the selfless love that my mother has for her patients. She's a labor and delivery nurse, or the way she uses all of her vacation days to run medical mission trips in Haiti. Right. Like she does some really incredible work. The way she cared for four children. Myself, one of them, five if you count my dad. And it's just at the same time, by me living a different way, by me ultimately marrying a very different kind of man, one who reflects back to me a more courageous version of myself than I even know is possible sometimes by living my life with boundaries and really working on myself to not martyr myself for my company or the causes I believe in. My mother is changing her ways. And I'm not saying it happens easily or overnight, and I'm not even invested in her having some sort of personal revolution. But she did email me today, Kathy, saying, you know, I have a planner that I gifted her, one of our life tracker planners this year, and she uses it. She's part of our little community of hundreds of women using this plan to be more mindful about how we spend our time and draw healthy boundaries. And she said to me, I've realized today that I think I operate in my entire life with a very prevalent but low grade amount of anxiety all the time. And I just want to tell you how much I appreciate this and you know, that I'm really changing on this front. I've gotten so much out of this. And I wrote back to her and I said, I'm so happy to hear that. Get thee to a therapist, please. You know, and so it's just, you know, baby steps, right? But like, by choosing to live differently myself, I have seen profound changes in the people I love, people I'm surrounded by, including the people whose, frankly, whose lifestyles have inspired me to take a different path.

Yeah, beautiful. You know, I think when you talk about healing, they say when you truly heal, you heal generations ahead of you and generations behind you. And I mean, that is so true. Are no longer living. I don't, you know, I believe that. But your mom is a living example. And I did want to ask you this just so that people who are hearing this, who are nodding their head can learn even more about, about this. You know, I say I write about a lot, a lot about narcissism. And I say, narcissist don't know that they're narcissists. They don't know that they're narcissists. You would never say, hey, you're a narcissist, and the person agrees.

That's so true. I hadn't thought of it that way.

But I think martyrs would never agree. So would if mom listened to this and you said, she falls on the sword, would she?

She would agree.

She would agree.

I actually heard a lot of women who come to Boston, they come for two different reasons. One, my typical community member is, I'm totally Burnt out, I've hit rock bottom. I don't know where to go from here. I need to find a new way forward that is more sustainable. There's a lot of self awareness in the burnout mode. But also if you struggle with burnout because you've been martyring yourself, I think a lot of women struggle with this, especially as mothers, because we want to martyr ourselves for our kids. Right.

But you have to know that the people that come to you, 0.01% of the population of the world, so these women are, have hit a bottom, breakthrough, breakdown and say, holy crap, I need a breakthrough. But I know you're talking to a million of other women who, I don't think they see it.

I think they pride themselves. Kind of like how, you know, the office martyr prides themselves on getting very little sleep. And that works for them for a while. They're like, look, look at me, I got four hours of sleep last night. And that works for a little while. And that was me for three years. I was crushing it. As the youngest state director in the nation, I had trained and managed 200 volunteers across the state of Rhode Island. I built this organization in the ashes of the Obama campaign when it was time to actually do the work of policy and legislation and lobbying. And it was great. I had some of the highest phone bank and door knocking programs per capita because I was in the little state of Rhode island and it was working really well. I had this nationally recognized internship program that I built out that the rest of the, the state directors were trying to model after. And then it wasn't working. Like two years later, I could not sustain that anymore. And however you find yourself there, if you do, you can put a band aid over a bullet hole or you can really say, wow, the way I'm working is not working. And I think a lot of people who've been martyring themselves are open to the possibility of change, but if they're not, they're probably not going to be into what I have to say. You know what I mean?

Not yet. Not yet.

Would you agree with this?

And then I want to talk about developing your boss identity and how you need people. But I'm going to say this. As a former marriage and family therapist, I believe that it that almost unilaterally, what is underneath martyrdom is a deep sense that I'm not good enough the way I am.

Definitely, definitely.

It's a worthiness problem. Wouldn't you?

Totally. And it goes back to the Protestant work ethic. Right. My worth is only measured in my work and how I serve others. And I found this little mantra that I held onto nearly and dearly. And I'm not a big mantra gal myself, right? I would much rather read the Harvard Business Review than a mantra blog post. But let me tell you, this one has stuck with me since starting bossed up in 2013. It said, I deserve to serve and be served. I deserve to serve and be served.

You gotta chill.

And just allowing that duality to coexist peacefully is the work so many of us have to do and the work that I've been focused on. Where does ambition meet self care? You know, where do those two things come together? And that's a big question that I want to spend my life answering, or.

Trying to beautiful and be served. I mean, I think most women would say, I'm comfortable, I'm not comfortable with being served. I don't need to be served. They're not going to get that. Oh, I love it. All right, give us two tips about. I love what Emily's saying, but how do I do it? All the women that are pouring in going, oh, my gosh, this is not sustainable. What do you have them do? Give us two strategies.

The first way I think about cultivating a boss identity, of really experimenting with seeing yourself as a leader in your own power is ironically, it starts with taking action, right? Making a boss move, gauging the reaction that you get from that, and then internalizing what worked or not. So what that looks like is, let's say I have been an intern working all summer at a digital strategy agency, and I technically have no power in the hierarchy of things. I have no authority given from my title. But I see something that seems wrong, and I want to get people together to say, I think we can do this better. So I send an email to a few of my colleagues, maybe a few other interns, maybe a few other supervisors, and say, hey, can we talk on Friday at 2 o' clock about how we can improve our search engine optimization plan? And there's two possible outcomes, mainly that come from that. One is people read that email and go, who died and put you in charge? Right? Like, who made you bust?

Right?

And the other is they show up. And so by taking that first leadership step, that boss move, that opens the door to identity expansion, to seeing myself as actually capable of garnering support, capable of commanding respect. And then depending on whether people show up and you're really feeling yourself that day, or if people blow off the meeting entirely, you have to internalize the story. Why did it work? Why didn't it work? How can I re enter that cycle with a little more knowledge or unfortunately, sometimes when things don't work, we internalize that failure as a refusal.

Yeah, I should never speak up again. Look how that went.

Exactly. So that's a really critical part of this three step process is the internalization part. How can we focus on actions that we can internalize, not traits?

I love that, Emily. You know, it brings to mind my sister who doesn't love me repeating this, I'm sure. But when I first came out with Finding Brave that we have to find and it's a process, she wrote me, I hate this finding Brave. And I said, why? And she said, because I found Brave and spoke up to this woman who was being horrible to me. And she got mad and it was a disaster. I go, no, no, no, you don't punctuate it there. It's, yeah, nobody's gonna like it. In the beginning, you know, and family therapy, we looked at how the system around you is like a mobile and hanging. And when you do this, the whole system goes, yeah. And then it's finding Brave to take the repercussion of it and know how to respond. So I couldn't more. It's a loop and it's a loop loop.

It's a spiral.

Like, oh boy, that went well. Let's, let's exactly part the loop.

Right, right. You're in that loop. You're constantly a product in improvement process. Right. You're like in that iterative process of refining your voice, refining your identity, your sense of having an impact. Sometimes it's going to be a good impact, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you're going to make trouble. And you got to figure out how to internalize that without losing your confidence in your ability to figure it out. Right. I don't like this bravado. I don't like that kind of external chest pounding kind of bravado type of confidence that, oh, just go for it. You got this girl, right? That's not super helpful. If I, if I got this girl, I wouldn't feel the need choking in.

The bathroom before I give my talk.

So it's more like that deep seated, calm confidence not in the outcome being perfect, but in the ability to learn from the process itself.

So helpful.

Stay in that cycle. It's not easy, but that's where your community comes in, frankly.

Right. And I want to hear about that. Can I throw one, one tip which you think? I think that when we speak like this or in Our courses, we give these exercises. It's pretty clear to us who've been doing this a while. Here's something you can do, like go and have that. Suggest that meeting. But I want everyone listening to stop and look at the things they've never thought to do that would make them feel bossed up. For instance, I have a client who wanted more executive presence, and to me, she's already got it. So I said, what does that look like to you? How will you know when you have it? But, you know, a few months later, now she's presenting, as she typically does to the board about one of two things. I won't bore you with it. And she's going to find out from an important figure, a board member, which one he wants her to speak on. So I said, let's turn this on its head. How about you say, I'm perfectly comfortable and excited to speak on both, and I'd love the chance. And I could see in her eyes that never occurred to her. She was thinking, give me one and I'll work, you know? No. So just like you're saying to the intern, you have something to offer here. Offer that meeting. Look right today where you are not embracing ways to move. And we're not all talking going linear up the ladder. We're talking about embracing and leveraging what you have to offer in ways that are going to make you feel thrilled.

Yeah. It kind of reminds me of that idea of taking power versus asking for permission.

Yes.

Boss moves are about asserting your power and seeing what happens. It's not about getting permission. It's not about, you know, hoping everyone's going to like you and doing something for likability. It's about saying, here's something I feel strongly needs to happen, and I don't see it happening. So I'm going to fill that void by being willing to lead. Whether it's the book you've had in your computer that hasn't been written yet, and it's not going to write itself, or that's in your journal or in your head, or if it's just going to that PTA meeting or that city council meeting and saying, this is a huge problem in our community and none of you are representing me right now. So I guess I'm gonna have to put my hat into this ring. Right? Filling a need where we see one without waiting for permission to do so. That's the critical first step to seeing, can I be this fierce? Right. I love it.

So I'm guessing and aware of our time, but let's talk two more minutes. I think that at the heart of sustainability is having support by a courageous. I use the word tribe. I don't mean to appropriate that word, but, you know, what do you think about your community and how it helps do this? Tell us.

I'm a big fan of what I call a courage community, which is really different than a squad of support. Those, those people who are going to cheer you on no matter what. I need people who are going to say to me, emily, you're being shy. Go for it. You know, Emily, throw your hat into that ring. You know, you're better than this. You can me on my stuff, you know, and you can push me to do more. To me, that's the kind of courage I find contagious in our community online. But also I really realized that we each individually have responsibility for seeking out the kind of support that isn't just a bunch of yes women.

Yeah, right.

I call this mirror theory, this idea that people are like mirrors. Some mirrors reflect back a much nicer reflection than others. Right. We've seen some mirrors that you're like, oh, I'm holding onto that mirror forever versus like fun house mirrors, which are constantly, you know, sending you back this completely warped image of yourself.

Yeah.

To me, people in my community can be the same way. My dad, God bless him, I love him. But he is an anxious, worrywart, legal minded person who is the perfect person to take a plan to when you're ready to hear about all the potential ways this could go wrong.

That's his framework.

Yeah, that's. That's sort of his framework. He's. He projects a lot of that energy out in the world. Not by any mal intent or malicious intent. But if I keep going back to my dad saying I'm thinking about starting this business, what do you think? I'm thinking about taking this big chance and going to speak at the TED Talk. What do you think? You know, I can't expect a different kind of response. I can't keep walking in front of funhouse mirrors expecting for them to straighten themselves out. So we each have a responsibility of standing in front of the right mirrors for what we need when we need it.

Beautiful.

Any one of us can develop that community of courage, but it takes time, effort and energy, and we have to give that to ourselves.

Oh, I love it. And I think you would agree, right, Emily? We are not saying. It's not that I want to hear. Yes. Because some of the best, most propellingly forward input I've ever gotten was you're not there yet or. Okay, good. Good try. But it's not gonna work this way.

Right.

And there we're Right. So don't get us wrong. We don't. We're not saying yes people. We're saying courageous people that. I just watched Brene Brown's who I.

Me too. Netflix special.

So good people who are already in the arena. Yes. That know what it takes and. And have a higher kind of evolved way of looking at how we move forward.

And I want people on my Rolodex who I can call when I'm sobbing over some big opportunity I didn't get and who I can equally call with pride when I have some exciting win to share, you know, and those are your ride or dies.

Oh, I love it. The people you can brag to as well.

Exactly. I can't believe it. Exactly. And it takes. It takes time and effort to put into those, you know, reciprocal relationships. But that's what it's all about. In a world that's so digitally connected, but not very mentally, physically, and personally.

Behaviorally, spiritually, and otherwise connected. Oh, it's so good, Emily. It's. You've got so much to say. So where do people find out all about you? Your programs, your book? Where do. Where do we send them?

Thank you.

I'll link to it below.

So bossedup.org is the place to go to find out all about bossed up and join our courage community online. And you can pre order my book anywhere you buy books, but it's pre orderable on Amazon right now and it'll be at your door on publication day on May 21st.

Oh, my gosh. Congratulations. I can't wait to pour through it, honestly. And I love your special language and your special lens. We need it. We need it. We need all these wonderful, juicy strategies and tips. Thank you so much. And congrats on your new book.

Right back at you.

Love it. Thank you. Come back again soon. All right. I hope you're feeling brave. Let's hear from you. You know, we love to let us know how. How Emily's book impacts you, how it's really helping you lose the martyrdom and be the boss of your own life. See you next time. Thank you so much. And come back soon.