Finding Brave 74: Lean Out: The Real Truth About Women, Power, and the Workplace, with Marissa Orr

Hello, everybody. Kathy Caprino here. Welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. Today is one of those days where I'm pinching myself and saying, how is it possible that I get to do this work that I love so much, that inspires me so much? But I know how it's possible because I work my tail off to make it happen. But here we are. I am so thrilled to introduce our guest, Marissa Orr to you today. And we're talking about Lean out and everything about women and power and the workplace that we have gotten wrong and how it's damaging women and institutions and organizations. So, Marissa, thank you for joining. So excited.

Thank you for having me. I'm equally excited to be here.

Oh, my goodness. All right, everybody, let me tell you about Marissa, because it's going to blow your socks off. So our guest is Facebook and Google veteran Marissa Orr, who will release her debut book on we just talked about Lean out the Truth about Women, Power, and The Workplace on June 11. So just a week after you hear this. Marissa began her Google career over 15 years ago as a founding member of Google's sales, operations and strategy team, after which she worked as a vertical marketing manager at Facebook. She's conducted so many talks and workshops for thousands of people at diverse organizations across the globe. And Marissa is author and speaker covering the systemic dysfunction at the heart of today's corporations and how the pursuit to close the gender gaps has come at the expense of female well being. Wow, that is a mouthful, Marissa. Let us. Let us dig in. I want you all to know that I have pored over Marissa's messages and her. Her talks. And truly, I don't think I could agree more with any guest. But, you know, this is not all about agreement. It's about diversity of thought. We're going to talk about how we might see some things differently. But can you just dive in, Marissa, and tell us why did you write this book? What happened?

The leaders of modern feminism have been from a small but elite group of very powerful women. So naturally their perspective is going to the lens that they see things is through their personal experience and their personal perspective. But that's been very limited. And it means that so many working women don't hear their voices or challenges or concerns reflected in. In the national conversation. So I wrote Lean out to represent those voices and to tell a different side of the story about women at work.

All right, so I couldn't agree more. Dealing with, you know, coaching so many women who. I don't. I wonder if you'd agree with this. I don't think they see themselves in what's being discussed about leadership or they. It makes them feel wrong about who they are.

Question or question themselves.

Okay, I don't want that. I don't want to look like that. I don't agree with this. So. Yeah. So you're kind of speaking as the every woman, aren't you?

Yeah. Because when you do question. Right. You start to doubt yourself and it makes you feel a little bit like sort of you're betraying your identity as a modern, empowered woman. Yeah, right. Because it's been defined like what feminine feminism is and what you should be and what your career looks like and what success looks like, frankly, has been defined so narrowly that if you feel a little bit differently, it can be disorienting. And, you know, certainly that was the case for me. So I totally agree with you.

Can I give an example and see if this is what you're talking about? As I mentioned, I had an 18 year corporate career and I rose to vice president. What was ahead of me was senior vice president and then president. And I looked at their lives. They were all men.

Mm.

There were a few women, but I didn't see myself in these women. Like the head of HR said to me when I took a week off to move my family, she said, I took a half a day and I have three kids. Well, so the hell what? That's gonna be bleeped out. But I looked at what they had and said, while I need to be a highly contributed professional woman, I also want to be in the fabric of my two kids lives. And I'm not seeing that happen. I'm not going for it. Because at the end of my life, I don't want the regret that I blew it as a parent. Yet even saying those words 10 years ago made me feel like, oh, you maybe shouldn't say that. Is this kind of what you're talking about?

Totally. And the perception around you is, oh, Kathy lacks ambition. Right. When that's the farthest thing from the truth. And one of the stories that I tell a couple things. One of the things I say in the book is if you get the corner office, but you sit there sad and alone, can you really call that a success? So one of the stories I tell that illustrates what I mean is at Google, once you get past a certain level, you have to manage people. It's a hard and fast rule. Now, I had the highest performance scores on my team at that time, but in order to get the promotion, I needed to start managing a team. And I really chose to be an individual contributor, not only because I'm a single mom of three kids and they were babies at the time, but also because I'm really creative, and I like to dig in and solve problems and really work. And the management role had very little of that. So I wanted my time in the office to be meaningful and exciting, but I didn't feel I could fulfill that in a management role.

So I'm sure you got a lot of pushback on that.

Yeah, I really did. And one of the things they say in the book is that research shows that women have a broader variety of life goals, and they have more than men, and they're of a greater variety, whereas men have fewer and they're more focused on money and power. So the corporate structure, though, only provides money and power, and it leaves a lot of women in want. And because we've only defined it as success, as money and power in those terms, I think that really goes back to what you were saying about, you know, sort of your experience in that VP role.

And I remember reading Sheryl's book, Lean In, Sheryl Sandberg, and she mentioned, women aren't as ambitious as men, and that really stuck in my craw. I knew that was wrong. This is way before. When did Lean in come. Come out?

2013.

Yeah. So this is before. I had written so much on Forbes and done a lot of research and interviewing, but I remember going, something about how this is being defined is wrong.

And I actually go into detail on that very point a lot in one of the chapters, which is, you know, ambition is just a really big goal, and it can be applied to anything. It could be applied to fitness or motherhood or creativity. Writing a book, you know, it's such a. Oh, right.

What she meant is women somehow are not going for the big. The big role. But that isn't even accurate. Right.

It's not that they don't have the ambition, and so they don't have ambition toward being a CEO. And there's very. And they do, you know. But in her book, she quotes 18% of women say they aspire toward that level in a corporation. But it's not that women. That doesn't mean women don't have ambition. It means they don't have ambition for that very specific and narrow role, which, frankly, I don't think is a negative. You know, there's great CEOs and there's terrible CEOs, and a lot of women have ambition that's about bringing meaningful work and impact into their life. And A lot of times you can't do that, as, you know, in those corporate roles, because you can't meet as.

I love what you're saying.

I love it.

I love it. And you know what it's akin to. I also kind of work in the world of the entrepreneurial. You know, there's such a subtle. And this is not to bash men. It's not that at all. But there's a. We're in a patriarchal world in business. And, you know, someone shared with me his view that, you know, men have been doing this for hundreds of years and women are new to it, so we're looking at that worldview. But in the entrepreneurial world, it's almost subtly like, if you're not making over a million dollars, you're nothing. Well, my business doesn't make a million dollars yet. I'm not nothing. So I feel it's the same thing. You know, to make a million dollars, you're. You're tending to be working on a lot of things that, you know, I'm not so thrilled to work on, actually. Doesn't mean I won't get there. But it's the same thing. They're so subtle. And it's not that you ever read it. You need to make a million to even be considered anything. But it's all of these messages. So I'm loving it. Tell us your experience. You worked for Cheryl, right?

I didn't work for her, but I worked at Facebook and I met her while I was there.

That's right. And you have. You've been interviewed about kind of your interaction in the meeting. But, you know, we won't be, you know, focusing on Sheryl too much. But can you tell us just generally what working for Facebook and Google did for you to you?

Yes, absolutely.

Write this book.

Yeah. So I was at Google for 13 years and by and large had a really great career there. I was pretty happy. And I was recruited to Facebook toward the last year while I was at Google, and I was pretty happy. But I thought because Facebook was smaller and for myriad of other reasons that I go into. In the prologue of the book, I decided to leave Google for. For a job at Facebook. But things at Facebook went incredible. It was very different than I expected. And I ended up being in this terrible situation where I was really bullied by a powerful female executive there. It was not Cheryl. And it kind of broke me in a way. I was sort of forced into this place, this dark place where you question your identity of like, who am I and what do I want. And when I really asked myself those questions, the honest answer was that I was never really going to be happy in the corporate world and I was never really going to fulfill my potential there. And I had started a lecture series at Google about female leadership. It was a side project. And I thought, you know, that's really what I want to do full time. So even though my experience at Facebook objectively was that by any stretch good, I'm really grateful for it because it really put me on the path of pursuing my dream and writing this book. So in the end, it was a gift and it put me on this path.

So I love it.

I can only say thank you.

Can I ask you this? You know, having gone through something in the years right before 9 11, when I was a VP getting a settlement, which I'm finally going to write about, I had a gag order. You will not be mentioning this. So that's what, almost 20 years ago. I feel that you are very, very brave to this recently out of it to be talking about it. What do you feel about that? Are you nervous about it? Do you get pushback from Google and Facebook? Can I hear? Because I'm, I'm admiring of you in doing this because it's no small thing.

Well, thank you. And it's a question I get a lot, so I have no problem talking about it. I actually started writing this book while I was still at Facebook. It was really a way to take the power and control back in my life and put it in my own hands because I felt really powerless in my day job. And I had already worked so hard on this lecture series while I was at Google. So it brought a lot of joy and meaning into my life to return to working on it. So I was actually fired from Facebook because of this bullying situation. And again, I go into all the details about it in the prologue, and also it's posted online on my Medium page, which is Marissaor, so you can read about all the dirty details there. But essentially similar to you in the gag order, when I was fired, I was offered severance. It was very, very measly. And I felt like it was almost insulting on purpose compared to the industry standard. But I didn't sign it. And from what I hear, that's very rare. I didn't sign it because what it meant, even though I was, you know, I spoke to some attorneys and there were some legal action I could pursue. And, you know, one of them said to me, oh, maybe you'd get a year or two of salary. I thought that Meant I couldn't write the book because when you sign the agreement, you agree not to talk about certain people or things or experiences there. And I had already gotten so far in the book by that time. No amount of money that I could have gotten would have been worse. Not pursuing it because it was my truth. And at that point, I just felt compelled. Looking back on it, I think it, you know, if I were my own mother, I would have been, slow down, Nellie. Yeah. But I would have been exasperated as my mom was. She's super supportive. But at the time, it seemed crazy. But I can only explain it as I felt compelled. And to your question about, you know, the courage or back backlash response from Facebook and Google. Well, the book is not out yet, so they haven't read it and don't know exactly what's in there. But a couple things. One is I told my truth so I can sleep well at night. I mean, I have no. It's true, though. I mean, this is my truth, and that's what I hold on to. So whatever happens, I know that my character, my view of my own character and my integrity will be intact. And that's really the value that I hold up. So whatever happens as a result, you know what? It happens, and I will feel good about what I did.

I just wanted to pause a minute. I mean, there is power in that. And Marissa, we were talking for a second about beforehand about, you know, I'm writing a book and we were talking about when you care about a cause, you can intervene on a lot of different levels, societally, globally, institutionally, culturally. And you are. And we have to get into how the institution of work needs to change if women are going to thrive. And I love to. I'm just happiest working individually to help women be powerful, because not to look like men, but you got to have power internally and externally, do what you want. But what you just said is so true. When you own your truth and you don't have to suppress it, you become very powerful. Oh, I'm just gonna chill. It's when you feel like you are less than or wrong or you're gonna be punished for your truth, that's where the power goes away.

Would you agree? I couldn't agree more. And actually, so much of the book is about how these corporate power structures. It's like where truth goes to die.

The cemetery for truth.

It's true because, you know, managers. And by the way, the book's really limited to the scope. The scope's limited to the corporate world. There's different power dynamics there. But when you work for a corporation, your manager really has total and absolute power over you and your livelihood. And so it's really hard to defend your truth and be authentic in yourself because the power structure requires that you obey. And I think that's where the. That's where well being is really compromised. Not only in women, in everybody. Right. Because some of these are, you know, you talk about power, some of these are laws of human nature, not just, you know, gender, where people thrive and are happy when they can be themselves. And, you know, these corporate hierarchies and these competitive power games sort of destroy that in so many people and.

Add to that. Are you an introvert, by the way?

Very much so.

I know that. Do you know that as I. I'm an extrovert or an ambivert, truthfully, but as I. My son who just graduated from college is an introvert and something happened to him in college two years ago. And I went, oh my God, that's discrimination. Something about how a classroom thing had to happen. And he just couldn't do it the way the extroverts. So I started tracking how many women come to me for help who are introverts. And it's something like 80%, if not higher. They are struggling in ways that extroverts don't. And I do believe there's a bias in our corporate culture. Do you?

Absolutely. And again, it's. It's something I talk about in the book in some capacity. Not. I don't touch on it that much or overtly, but one major point that I make is that this research has been done to show that the best predictor who rises to. To the top in terms of personality traits. So there's the big five categories, extroversion, and specifically there's a component in extraversion that's desire for dominance. And extroversion is the biggest predictor of who will rise to the top. And so I think that extroverting people work in these corporations that are more suited to what motivates them. But introverts are not motivated by that sort of thing. Right. So there's a problem there. There's, you know, it also shows that agreeableness, which is another category of the big five, the more agreeable you are, the less likely you are to rise to the top. Yeah. And I am in every personality test. I test off the charts and agreeableness. Right. So it's wonder a good friend.

But maybe in our corporate world, right?

In our corporate world, yes. I would say Right, right. No, no, but it's true. I would make a terrible corporate executive. But you know, to your point about in the book that you're writing with power, I feel incredibly more powerful as a writer. And right now I don't have a salary. I have an editing income in a year and a half. I'd say, you know, use all my savings for this. I feel incredibly more powerful now than I did making, you know, at the best companies in the world, making an incredibly lucrative salary. So yeah, I agree with you. I think, you know, introverts, given the research I just shared, it would make sense that, you know, you kind of feel like a square peg in a round hole. So so much of the time I.

Think that another piece is to encourage women to do this. You know, the things that have gone most viral in anything I've written are when I'm being very raw and revealing about myself and complimentary. 6. Toxic behaviors that push people away. 7. Parenting behaviors that keep children from growing into leaders. I'm real with how I messed it up for myself, for my kids, for that's what, that's what's powerful. Because when we're feeling it, millions are feeling it. And so there's a different kind of power than having a. And you know, it's influence. It's influence, it's thought leadership.

Yeah.

And the other thing I want to highlight in what you said is your not suited for the corporate world. I was never suited for the corporate world from day one, but I didn't understand what that looks like. So I'm sure your book is going to help people go, oh my. So tell us.

If I had pom poms, by the way, I'd be waving right now. Because that's exactly.

You know, we're not trained to say not for me. When you're 21, I mean you think, oh, I got to do this. Tell us what you think is wrong and what we can do about it. You know, I sense that you're all about proactive measures. You know, it's not all pie in the sky. Woo hoo. Tell us what we all can do. Whether we're leading, whether we're in the corporate world and think we want to make it work. What is wrong and what do we need to do?

Yes, great question. And there's two parts really to the answer. So if I blabber on, feel free to interrupt.

Blab on.

Similar to you, I really don't at the end of the day care about what corporations do. I care about women and the people that work there. So there's different ways to reach individuals. So I think one of the ways that I like to do that is with a different perspective and a shift in thinking. So the first thing that I would say answer this book is first explain why I believe what the current mode of thought in modern feminism, why I think it's wrong, and then from there, like, what the natural answer or solution would be. So book lean in. And books of that nature really pin the blame for the gender gap on stereotypes and culture. And so naturally their solutions are really for women to defy those forces and act more like men. But I believe that it's okay that men and women a lot of times want different things at work. And so instead of dismissing women's unique needs and wants as a product of cultural oppression, I really think we need to listen to them and take them seriously and find ways to adjust the corporate structure to better meet the needs of women versus adjusting women to better conform to this outdated system of these structures. So with that in mind, I think that's just a sort of level set. So what do you do? Right. Is really the question. Well, I think it's very powerful to understand and recognize that our institutions aren't really designed to meet so much of our needs. And figuring out where that gap is and then meeting those needs yourself is incredibly empowering. So for example, you know, all starts from within. You know, you've got to really understand yourself. And that's a journey and it takes a long time. And one of the things that I say in the book, the key message is defining success on your own terms. And I think instead of measuring ourselves or women in general on the metric of winning, right? Who's winning more powers, winning more money, we should be using well being as an anchor and the goal and then from there figuring out what contributes to my well being. So one thing for me was, you know, creativity. Well, I go into this in the book, but there's so many ways these corporate structures suffocate creativity. So then the choice becomes, well, then how do I pursue this need that I have? Right. I started writing. You know, I'm a single mom of three kids. It's not like I had all this extra time to write a book. I had to really change my whole life. I started getting up at 4:30 in the morning and working on it for an hour and a half before I got the kids up for school and then I got myself to the office. But fulfilling that need that I had gave me such a feeling of being in Control. And it gave me a feeling of self control and power, that it was a cycle, like I wanted to do it more and more. So just by recognizing, okay, our institutions are limited. I can't get this. I can get this. It does take the power back a little bit and puts it in your hands. Now, I also am fully aware that most people don't have the resources to just, you know, pursue. Right. And lean out is not. It doesn't mean quit your job or, you know, reduce your ambition. It doesn't mean that at all. It just means leaning out of other people's stories of who you should be and what your career should look like and what success is. So I do think solutions are, you know, I go into a whole chapter about what companies can do. But I'm again, way more interested and invested in what individuals can do and you know, what power structures, they take a long time to change if they're ever successful at it. So it begins, starts and ends in the individual. And I do think that orienting around well being is a start and figuring out who you are, what you need, and then how to fulfill those needs.

God, how beautifully put. Can I share something and see what you think about this? Yeah, I'm really going to be transparent because you're inspiring me. Look how brave you are. For years I wrote about, my first book was Breakdown Breakthrough about the crises working women are facing. And I developed a lot of talks. I do a lot of talks. But what I noticed is one very prominent sports organization was going to hire me for their leadership conference. And three different young women interviewed me and three of them independently said, we're afraid women are going to quit when they hear you. And after my heart started beating, and that happens when I get mad.

Now you're making me nervous for my speaking career.

I'm going to give you a tip, right? Yes. But you don't need any tips. You're rocking it. But I got so annoyed that I said, I gotta tell you, if three of you are worried that women are gonna quit, what's going on in your corporate, your company? And they said, it's terrible for women. And my speaking, my high level speaking friends said, get the gig, Kathy, just get the gig and go and say what you want to say. But the good, pleasing, accommodating little girl Kathy didn't want 1700 women to line up to quit because then my blah, blah, blah, I didn't take the gig. What I'm sharing with you now is this is what I want to say to women. You And I are happier outside the corporate world. But that doesn't mean you listening are. So what I'm sure you want to say, I don't know, don't let me put words in your mouth. But what I want to say is I want to help you be stronger, have more well being and be more powerful. Now, I don't care if you quit next week. I want you to know what it feels like to be fully yourself in this job. And that I think I'm going to get hired to speak about a heck of a lot more than career breakthrough, which says to people, I got to quit this crappy job. So does that speak to you in any way, shape or form, what I just said?

Absolutely. The whole message of the book is to be yourself. And I think that with well being. Well being is all about who you are and what you need and if you are somebody. Like for example, my daughter, she's eight. She is the baddest, bossiest, amazing. I mean, my mom and I talk all the time how my daughter's gonna run a corporation one day, right? And I admire her. I always say I want to wear a bracelet that says WWSD for what Shelby do because she and I are so different. That, you know, I learned from her and I hope she learns from me. There's room for her to be who she is and for me to be who I am. That don't compromise one another. I mean, I, you know, she is destined to be a CEO and I freaking love her for that. It's about knowing who you are and owning it, regardless of what that looks like, you know, and so I, of course, totally agree with. With what you.

Wonderful. Good. Because we're not telling you to run. We're telling you to stay. All right? That's my message. Stay and revise any way that you don't feel powerful, any way you can. You know, another thing I want to ask you about Marissa. You know, in my time as a marriage and family therapist, the whole world changed for me. Absolutely turned it upside down. But my book is a lot about what your childhood taught you. So one thing I just want to normalize is women may wake up, I'm 58 next week, and go, wow. I just. How did I get like this? How did I not speak up? How did I. Whatever. I don't want you to blame yourself. We, those of us even who are boomers, older generations, were raised in a very particular way. If you think pleasing. What was the word? Accommodating. No, what was the word that you Are agreeable.

Agreeable.

Think agreeable is off the charts for you. Every boomer girl, I think, you know, who was born in that generation, you were malleable. We know what it means to be feminine, malleable, pleasing, weak, vulnerable. So, you know, stay tuned for my book next year. But sometimes we have to look. Not sometimes. We always have to look back on the messages we got when we were small, because they're still with us if we haven't changed them. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think that so much of the way we act now are, you know, based on these patterns that we developed as kids. And now sort of we're on autopilot. And it takes. But it takes somebody who's really committed to understanding themselves and live a better life. I mean, I work on it every single day. It's been scary. This journey has been really scary. And it takes a lot of internal work, and I wouldn't change it for the world. But recognizing the patterns that you've developed, what they are the first step. But then I think it's also really important to, at some point, once you feel, you understand how you got to where you are and sort of the forces that have shaped you, that the second part of the journey is now how to take ownership, to change that.

That's right. We don't want to stay in the past. We don't want to stay with blame. It's.

But understand. Yeah. Understanding those forces is incredibly powerful because they become a little impersonal. You know, it's like, oh, I'm that way because of X, Y and Z. And so, okay, now I need to do, you know, ABC or whatever. And I think it's important not to. Like, the understanding of it for me was so powerful and so life changing. But then there's this area where you can sort of get stuck. I've seen, you know, a lot of people get stuck in that part of, okay, well, it's their fault. I'm like this. And then get bitter and resentful. But I read somewhere once that if you, you know, your whole journey in life is about overcoming that stuff to get to the middle. So they recommended looking at it like, you know, this is your life's mission and journey. When you look at it like that, it kind of pulls you out of the past.

I love that. Rather than, why has this gotten in the way of my journey? No, this is your journey.

This is your journey.

I really believe we came into this life to have these.

Right.

We didn't come in to walk in A paradise every minute. What the heck fun would that be?

I mean, who really has escaped childhood unscathed? Let's be honest, like, there's none of them.

My kids won't either, as much as I've tried.

Of course, our intent, no matter our intentions. Right. Everybody's a little battle scarred, some worse than others. And, you know, nobody has grown up without something like that. So what your shtick is or what you're, you know, it's. Yeah. Work it.

All right, Marissa, one last thing. I want to leave with an uplifting comment here or not. Whatever you choose, if you Google and Facebook and every other. You know, I'm wondering too, if in tech behemoths, we also have a solidified challenge that, that maybe more nimble smaller organizations, not in the tech world. I'd love your thoughts. But most importantly, if. If major leaders around the world of major organizations that are shaping millions and billions of people's lives could listen to this podcast, God willing, what do you want to say to these leaders?

Damn the man. No, I'm just kidding. It was a joke. You know what? You got to maintain a level of humor about this stuff. Right. You know, that was meant to make you laugh. The truth is, I would say that if you can create conditions in your organizations, you can create conditions of trust and put systems in place that really take care of your employees well being your business has nowhere to go but up. And I, you know, it's difficult for people to do that and accept that they also should read my book, because chapter nine is all about what corporate leaders can do in their organizations. But it all comes down to creating conditions of trust where people can be themselves and contribute the full range of their capabilities instead of trying to conform. So I would say that I love it.

And can I just add, and we're going to link to your book. Cannot wait. I'm going to add this. The only way anyone can do that, if they start getting hip to the biases that they have that they didn't know they had. So I'm even asking women to stop tearing down other women. I mean, I know forceful women, powerful women who they'll share with me, and they don't know they're revealing it, but some woman they met pissed them off. And if I really push, it might be that they're too confident or too assertive or too aggressive. I'm even going to ask every woman listening to. Look at how she tears down other women. What do you think?

I think that we see the world as we are not as the world is. And so when we have problems like that with other people, that's usually coming from an insecurity we have in our own lives. So unless you're willing to be honest with yourself and take an honest look at yourself and what you're doing that's contributing to the positive and negative things in your life, and you work on that, the other stuff I think falls into place.

I love it. And if you're a man and you're leading, please, today start looking at the biases you have about what is great leadership, what is power, what is strong communication. You know, one. One thing I want to share. So many of my female clients will say, you know, I ask questions in meetings, and then I'm found out later to be viewed as, she doesn't know her stuff. Folks, read a book. Women are different. Women ask questions.

I have a whole chapter on that. You're kidding. No, I swear to God, it's a whole chapter. It's.

Yeah.

It's about the fact that female dominant traits like empathy, listening, consensus building are often mistaken for weakness.

Lack of information, lack of know, lack of understanding your business.

And it's mistaken for lack of confidence when it's. It's anything but. In fact, most times, being able to ask questions and being okay, being uncertain about the things that you're uncertain about is actually a reflection of confidence. And so, you know, again, these power structures really destroy true confidence in favor of fake confidence, like bravado. So that's really the system. That's the issue to address.

I cannot wait for your book to be out. I cannot wait to feature you in my Forbes blog. You know, I just applaud you. It takes bravery to be true. To be.

Or stupidity. No, I'm kidding.

I am the man.

There's a lot of humor in the book. I don't take myself too seriously. So it's coming through now. That's why.

Thank you for joining me. I just. I so resonate with your messages, and they're so needed today. Thank you for writing the book. Come back again. I can't wait. After the book is out a year and you've spoken a thousand places, I can't wait to talk to you again. Will you come back?

Absolutely. This is a really. A lot of fun, and I had a great time talking to you. Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much. All right, everybody, if you don't feel a little braver now, I throw my hands up. I do. I can't wait to finish writing my story a little more honestly than I have. So you're my inspiration. Everybody check below. Get the book, share it. What other ways can people learn about you?

Sure. So like I said, the prologue to my book and it's called why working at Facebook Inspired Me to write Lean Out. I think that's a pretty good story for people to read. And that's a medium Marissa orr and it's medium.com marisaor and then Twitter is marissabeth or and those are the two big ones.

Wonderful. I'll be there.

Instagram is Marissa also.

Oh, are you. Are you big on Insta?

No, I have like no post yet. But I'm trying.

I tried to do a story yesterday and I almost like, oh Lord, it's over my head. I'm trying. Thank you, my dear. Best of luck for a fantastic success and talk.

Thanks so much everybody.

Have a very brave, powerful, truthful week and we will see you next time. Thank you.