Finding Brave Ep. #36: The Dark Night of the Entrepreneurial Soul, with Jason Miller

Hello, everybody. Kathy Caprino here, and welcome to Finding Brave. How's it going this week? We are talking about. Jason, let me introduce you, my friend. We are talking about something that many people, most people would never talk about, and they sure as heck would not get as real as my wonderful guest and I are going to get get about this. But we're going to be talking about the dark nights, because they're plural of the entrepreneurial soul. Right? Jason Miller. There he is. Thank you so much for being here.

Multi, multi year, sometimes multi decade roller coaster.

And people don't want to hear it and they don't want to believe it's going to happen to them. And they want to say, well, that's because you're not really ready or something's blocking you. All of which may be true, but we're gonna talk all about it. What happens, how we get there, why we get there, how we get out, how we may not get out for a while, but we're gonna get real here. But let me tell everybody about you, Jason. You're so inspiring. Jam. Do people really call you Jam?

Oh, yeah.

I can't do it.

I'm starting to move to Jam.

Jam. I can't do it. I don't know why I can't. Okay, go either way.

Jason Allen Miller. Jam.

That's Jason. Do I have to say Jason Allen the whole time?

Yeah, every single time you say my name. Jason Allen Miller. See?

All right, all right. It's ridiculous already. Jason Allen Miller, co founder of Peaceful Media, which is the go to digital marketing branding agency for conscious entrepreneurs who have a love this, a deep desire to heal, love and shift the planet and its peoples. And you work with some of the, you know, the names we all know. Brendon Burchard, who I adore from afar. Jeff Walker, Sonia Choquette. Is that how we pronounce it? I've read Sonia's book. You know, I just interviewed Martin Root on his project Heaven on Earth. Jason, flip over this. That sounds so beautiful. All right, so I'll connect you. All right, Jason, we don't even have this scripted here.

No, that's. And that's the way life is, right?

That's the way. So why don't we. Let's start, let's dig right in. And both you and I are gonna tell like it is. What is. What are the dark nights of the entrepreneurial soul.

So this is what it feels like. And Kathy, you can probably relate about these. These dark nights of the souls are really more than. More than a dark Night, like you said, they're dark months extended sometimes over the course of year or even years. And they feel like, well, here's the symptoms. They borderline. Honestly, they borderline. Probably you would diagnose as depression or anxiety. Not wanting to get out of bed.

Not being able to sleep, waking up in the middle of the night, looking at your phone, freaking out.

Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Many, many hours of that freaking out. Not wanting, like having such an ambiguously scary feeling inside of our chest that we don't even. There's no words for it. We don't know how to describe it to our partners or friends, even ourselves. It just feels like there's a swirling chaos inside of our bodies, inside of our lives, and nothing looks interesting. It's like going to a five star restaurant and everyone else is sitting around going, oh, my God, this is the most amazing food I've ever had in my life. And yet nothing looks good to me or you maybe. Everything just feels muted. One of the people I interviewed for my first book called it like being like a wet blanket was thrown over my body, you know, and I was walking around life just draping this wet, heavy blanket over my entire spirit. And therefore nobody could feel me, nobody could see me, nobody could recognize me as the person I really am. Or very few people. I should say, wow, those are some symptoms. They'll typically just, you know, you don't want to go to work.

Like, you don't want to deal and be the leader and be the. Come on, folks. You're like, I'm having a hard time getting out of bed, let alone exactly.

You know, my title at Peaceful Media is chief of optimism. And I swear to God, I wanted to kill myself for that. There are many, many times throughout the last 10 years of our business that have wanted to, like, shoot the person. This is what it feels like. I wanted to shoot the person who came up with that and put it on my business card.

And that was you, and that was me. I want to say, I want to add Lupin, what you're describing really feels like symptoms of depression. My dark nights don't feel like that. They feel like, my God, how am I ever going to get over this? And so it's, it's more anxiety and more. I get like, I get. My heart starts beating just thinking it's not. Oh, you know, like. And I want to tell you, I've had two of those when the Marshall came to my house and almost foreclosed 10 years ago.

Yep.

Yeah. And still to this day, when the doorbell rings. I told you this on our last webinar. The second was one was when I realized my husband and were really going to get divorced.

Yeah.

Oh, like when your identity slips away and you go, ho, I won't be that person anymore.

Yeah. See, you have the clinical background. I mean, so I'm not. By the way, everyone, I'm not a professional therapist or doctor or anything like that. So I don't call it depression. I call it not listening to my soul.

Yeah.

Not. Not adhering to what my soul was trying to say. And as a result, the anxiety. As a result, financial pressure. As a result, feeling unhappy and unsettled.

You know, let me understand this if I could, because you have a set, you know, successful. And we all know that there are vanity measures and there are real, you know, financial scenarios, etc. But if you look at all those times, so we can help people categorize and make sense. That's what I love to do. Let's take that chaos.

Yeah.

And make it categorized. So I go, oh, that's me, that's me. If you look at all the times you've been in the dark night, do they have a theme? Is it, I hate this work that I'm doing that I'm supposed to love? Is it why am I not making the money that it looks like I should be making? Is it I hate the people I'm working with. What is it for you?

So there are some through lines, and I'll share those. For me, there's always a financial through line. There is always some sort of external financial stress. Whether it was 2008 when I just purchased. I don't know how in the world they gave me that loan. I was like, the last.

Was they thinking and why did they do that to me?

Yeah. I was like, oh, you made that much great. Whatever. There you go. Here's a check. So I was like the last person before the crash that got into a really expensive home I couldn't afford. And so, you know, that's just one, though. There's so many identity crises along the way where my identity was trapped in that. My identity was trapped in this idea of going up onto an island. That's where I bought the home and writing my next book and being this, like, Henry David Thoreau in the San Juan Islands, you know. And so when that was being, it felt like it was being ripped away. Long story short, it absolutely wasn't being ripped away. It was just being. It was confronting me. The financial piece is just the most obvious. It's like, that's the dollars and cents and the numbers we can look at, our logical brains can look at in a bank account and go, I don't have money for next month's mortgage. You know, I don't have money for next month's childcare, whatever it is. I was confronted by that. And it's again, like, I've heard that the hardest thing for this spiritual warrior is just to relinquish control. And that's what it is Like. I'm confronted with an identity shifting opportunity, but I don't want to release the identity that I've built and constructed in my mind. Right.

That's huge.

Because I worked way too hard to get that identity built up. Does that make sense?

Yeah. So to have it stripped away, we believe we are.

Yep.

So what do you mean I don't have money for the mortgage next month. Right. That's what's so crushing about it. You know, I call it. It's. You're not demonstrating in physical reality what you know to be true about yourself. But really you are, right. I mean, don't you find the financial smackdown is. It is who you are, it is what's been created. So it's jarring, but it's also informative, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. And again, relinquishing control. So one of those controls is to have an expectation that I'm going to make this much and I'm going to live in this certain lifestyle. We can release that there are cheaper alternatives out there in life that'll allow us to listen to whatever our souls, art that's trying to be expressed through us wants us to be doing. But gosh, that would be a major identity change to go and cruise around, I don't know, cruise around North America in a van, you know, like, that would be. Ugh, what would people think about. What would I think about all the school I went through, all the things I'd have to give up. You see all those, all those.

Little.

Latches into our identity that, you know, ego and all that stuff have.

Oh, gosh, so true. Now tell me, as an entrepreneur, as I am, for me, some of the dark nights have been. I don't even think I like what I'm doing right now. Even though it's making a boatload. I'm not sure I love this. Do you have that or this client or this kind of client?

Why?

Somehow attracted in frigging bushels?

Yeah. That was my last. My last existential crisis. So to back up a little bit, can I just first acknowledge Everyone who's listening to this, please go back and listen to the backlog of what Kathy's compiling here, because it is gold. It is gold. This is alchemy in a podcast. I listened to your interview with Peter Bergman, Bregman or Bregman.

That blew my socks off.

Just gorgeous and so rich with information. Like, so as I'm listening, I'm just like, I hope everyone is just, like, taking a moment to be in gratitude of your service, because I know you do. I know you do this out of love and because you probably have to, and you're expressing yourself here. And I hope that it's helping a lot of people. I'm also. Yeah. So that's. That's basically the biggest thing I wanted to get across is just my appreciation for you there. My second is, is that I am not. I'm not. I don't have any prescriptions. I can. Because I don't think, like, the world is lacking in information anymore. Right.

Holy cow. Could we say that's the opposite?

Yeah. What we're. What we're kind of looking for and seeking is a new myth, new mythology, a new story.

Tweetable. Tell me what you mean. I mean, give us more words on that.

It's more archetypal. It speaks in symbols. It speaks in movements and emotions. More so than words and things you would get out of a, you know, nonfiction. Let's just put it that way. Right. So Peter comes from huge, hugely intellectually, so bright. Right. And so vibration. He's got all the answers. And there's. And the challenge with that is that someone else is listening to that. And it all goes like this because they're in the dark night. It goes because it's all more information. And information doesn't speak here. Right. Information is getting trapped up here before it can get circulated down here, if. If at all. And so a story, as we all know, we go to movies. We feel. You go to Star Wars. You feel a hero's journey. You feel that movement with Luke and all the heroines and heroes. Right. So what we need is a few more of these people, like you said, coming forth on podcasts, like Finding Brave. Very appropriate. And sharing stories of how we're navigating this. So I hope that whoever is listening to this a, has gratitude for what you're doing, Kathy, and just reaches out and says something. Subscribe, do whatever podcasts need to keep it going, but also just send you a note to maybe share some of their dark nights or post a comment below on your blog posts. Because we need this in order to come out of that.

Oh, that's just so beautiful. And I'm so heartfelt. Thank you.

Yeah.

So, all right. We're talking about what some of those dark nights are. And you know what would be helpful, too? How do you know you're in one? Well, to your point, when. When you're in one, you're in such a scared mode, I think, and shut down mode that you're right. It's all going, you know, when you're coming out, when, like I just had, as I mentioned, a child about how I might be projecting some weakness onto potential women I'm hearing from. And it's like that. Thunder, cloud. Thunderclap, like. And I think when you're in the dark night, nothing does that for you. Nothing.

No.

Feel like that. Is that right?

No. And have you ever experienced where someone you trust, friends, colleagues come to you and say, you're amazing? Kathy? I think I've actually, if I'm being honest, I've heard it in some of your podcast interviews where someone sort of compliments you on your interviewing skills, for instance. And it just kind of. I hear it in your voice. It's like, whatever. It doesn't have a place in here. Right. So there's like a. There is like a shield when we're in the dark. I've been there. I mean, I have people surrounding me who've seen me and my normal state, chief of optimism telling me that I'm great. And it sounds like. Sounds like bullshit.

But I say I have had that problem since when I was 22. A guy said, I just gave you a compliment and you just kind of acted like, hey. And I think that. So I think the point here is sometimes that's just not just the dark night. Sometimes that's some of who we are that does need to be looked at. That maybe gets highlighted in the dark night, you know?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like the. When we most need it, you know, it's like, it's one thing when, you know, you're kicking it with friends at a barbecue and someone says, hey, dude, you know, you're. You're a great dude.

Great.

It's just added to handmade bud light of confidence builders. Right? But when it's dark night, it's like none of that gets in. And those are like, those are little lifelines that just don't mean anything. So how do you tell? I mean, so for me, yeah, I mean, we described all the symptoms of just sleepless nights, not wanting to get out of bed feeling listless, feeling like everything I'm doing is meaningless, feeling like I don't make a difference on the plant, which is where the whole, like, maybe be, you know, those conversations come in and. Yeah. Just not wanting to live.

Oh, Jason. Yikes. So what do we do? What? Get what gets us out of that?

So I can. I can go through a little framework I just came up with a little bit ago. Do you want to get there? Do you want to.

Oh, get it.

I think there's opportunity here. What. What does it feel like for you?

The dark night?

Yeah.

It's questioning everything. It's, you know, like, for me, we're just being blunt. I have given up a lot. I have compromised a lot in my life to be here. And the love of the work is there, but sometimes the reward is not. The reward that I need. The reward that I want is not. And so it feels more like, you know, what every staff member or team member has ever said to me? Jesus, you are like a hummingbird. It comes so quick. You're giving us a thousand things. And, you know, we all know. 90, 90 day year. Todd Herman, planning. I am hard on the people that I work with because it's like, let's change. Let's do this. Let's. Heh. So it gets very frenetic.

It's not.

Even though I'm all planned out for months, Ha. The whole thing goes kaflooi. Because I have another idea of another program that'll help. So it's chaotic. It's full of frenetic activity. I love the work I do with people while I'm doing it, but there's a. Sometimes a dialogue later that I'm a little angry. I feel taken advantage of. It's all the stuff that makes you angry and resentful. Makes me angry and resentful of where I am today. That's hard to even say.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for being vulnerable. I acknowledge that.

Thank you. You too. I do take that in. I do.

This is your podcast, and you're willing to be so vulnerable. And there's. How many podcasts have y' all listened to where everyone who's on the interview is like, superstars, Superman, superwomen?

Well, that slick thing really rubs me the fricking wrong way. Nobody. Not nobody. We're doing it. So few people. Like, if I hear one more person say, I made a million dollars. No, you didn't. You might have generated it, but you actually earned $4. I'm tired of the lies.

Yeah.

But we're not here lying here. We're telling the truth. So that's how it feels for me.

Let me give you a little bit of backstory that may help contextualize this for other people, because I think there's. The details don't really matter. This isn't about me. This is. This is archetypal. This is hero's journey. This is finding your myth and listening to your soul. Okay. So back in 2010, I. I landed on my divine purpose.

You what? You did.

I landed on my divine purpose.

You landed on it. I love it. Yeah.

Which was. And if you go back to my journals that day, it was, I am called to be a healer. I was feeling these vibrations in my palms. Always been an intuitive empath. And I wanted. I really felt called to just go and heal, like Jesus or something, you know, like just. That was. I was like, oh, I need to go and study shamanism. And, you know, all this stuff. I just felt like, that's it. And then I put that journal down and immediately, you know what happens?

What?

Well, I think you probably know. You go, hmm. So how would I pay for that journey around journey, traipsing around north and South America and the world, just learning shamanism and healing people. And if I'm being honest, in fact, this was. This was projected in reality was. I was also scared of ostracization. Right. Like I told. I remember my mom calls me, what's up?

People saying, you've lost it, buddy. What the hell?

Yeah. Or in my mother's words, as she was going to church and I was going to Reiki practice.

I had no idea about this.

Yeah. She says. She calls me and says, what in the world are you doing? People don't make energy. Power plants make energy. Oh, boy. And I remember going. And even though I felt like I was an individuated, you know, 30 something year old, I took it in and made it mine. You know, deep down. Probably didn't admit it at that point, but I resented it. And I resented that I was brought up the way I was brought up. And, you know, I put it in the closet. Okay. Two weeks later, my friends in the icu, completely comatose, very bad car accident. And this dude's been through a lot. One of my best friends since third grade. And he's lying there. We don't know. We don't know. He's like that bad. And I looked at his face and I said, you've been just thinking to myself, you've been through too much, man. He'd been through too much, like, always struggling with money. Already had a couple DUIs problems. This was the fourth, third or fourth one. This was really bad. And so I just felt. Called him. I put my hands over him and I was like, okay, all right. Oh, shit. And I felt what his right in the solar plexus. I felt what he was feeling and I was like, oh, boy, oh, boy. You don't want that. You don't want that. And I just said, listen, I'll take this.

Oh.

And I just took it on myself because I didn't know any better.

And.

So he got better.

How did you feel?

And I needed like two weeks to like, let that circulate or try to figure that out sitting underneath trees, like, what in the world is this all over me? It was dark, right? So like, so there was a, a calling, B, a denial, both externally and internally. Like logically. Right. And then an expression of like, holy shit, it really does work. I am a healer. And then a sort of like, wow, I really don't know what I'm doing, so I better go and study more. Right. In the meantime, Peaceful Media, my company that I started, will be my. My outlet for healing. That's the way I justified it. I'm telling you this. That's a. That is a flimsy justification based on what I was really calling riveted.

You mean you. Oh, no. I don't even know what you mean. Justification meaning another part of you was going to make a million dollars.

You don't need to go traipsing around trying to be a shaman because you are doing healing. Does that make sense?

Yep. It was the plan B that was palatable to your ego, which actually diverted you from.

To my. Yeah, to my ego, to my bank account, your mother. To my mother, to my tribe.

Your tribe that would have thought you're freaking nuts.

Yeah. So around that corner of divine purpose is a lot of unknowns, right. You feel a calling, but it's coming from around a 90 degree turn. And so all you. You just hear something. You don't know what it looks like. I didn't know what it looked like and I didn't have the details to satisfy all of my logical needs for existence and sustaining my identity in my life as it was. And so I didn't heed that call. I also, at the same time in those periods, came up with my book just finished recently, Bob the Flightless Bird.

Oh, yeah.

If I go and look at my journals again, Bob the Flightless Bird was started back then. I Was there's like, feeling, spirit, spirit, flow, everything. And that's the high of the roller coaster that I'm talking about. Those are the bright light, sunshiny days where everything is joy and everything is love. And then those just make. Oh, boy. When those are so high, it makes those dark nights feel like I don't recognize myself back then. Right.

I need to understand one thing. Has peaceful media been a true outlet of healing in any way, shape or form?

Sure, sure.

Oh, that didn't sound compelling.

I'm just saying that's not the fullest expression of the healing work I'm called.

To do, wanted to do.

Right, right.

I see. Watered down, palatable version.

You sensed my answer. That's what I told myself, you know, But I kept getting confronted. The point is, is like every time I've gone into that, into these dark nights, and there's probably been four or five in the last 15 years or less, I'm constantly confronted with there's something calling me from around that corner and I can't see what it is enough to clarify it, put it into words, communicate it to my spouse, to my family, tribe in a way that will guide us safely and securely. Right again.

Boy, that's a packed sense. Oof. Safely and securely. Like, what is that?

Yeah, like.

Except the.

The.

Your soul, your spirit. Yeah. Really what you can do with yourself. Service.

Yeah. Anybody who's been laid off from the person or the corporation they've been working for for decades knows what we're talking about there.

Yeah.

Yeah. What security you call corporate security anymore.

So I'm dying to know here. What. What happened? It's so funny, Jason. If we're looking list building websites, copywriting, and advertising for peaceful, positive people. You know, I love your agency, but that feels so flat compared to what your soul wants to do.

Sure.

So what's going to happen? What's happening at the edge of my seat?

Yeah. So I first of all, well, why don't I go through this framework? Because it'll kind of guide us here on what's emerging.

Okay.

So if I'm looking back with clarity now on the things I couldn't see or whatever I didn't want to hear in those dark nights of the soul, the first thing I needed to do. And I call these the. I don't know, I just came up with this. So the five soul solutions. I don't know, they all end with a soul A's. The five sol A's to help you get out of that dark night. The first one is Acceptance. I told you before the interview that I read this book that made me laugh and laugh so hard because we were staying. My buddy's mom is a big spiritual, personal development person and she had this bookshelf full of all these woo woo books. And I was like, there's this one book called I'm okay, you're okay. And I was like, ah, that's the most ridiculous thing in the world.

This was a long time ago or recently.

A long time ago. Yeah, this is back in like junior high. And the reality is. That's very insightful.

I gotta check it out.

No, not the book. I'm just saying I am okay. I am okay. Acceptance, soul acceptance is willing to sit in the season of winter because just like nature needs seasons, our bodies and lives need seasons as well. And this is what, if possible, it has to start from here in a. I am going into winter. I am going to shut up all the ideas, all the problems and I'm just going to listen to what my soul really needs and I'm going to be okay.

Oh God, Jason. That's. That's a frigging 10, 10 week, 10 year course. I just want to point out, folks, I'm listening to Jason's because I haven't heard this before. The flitting that I do that gets exacerbated and accelerated. It's the antithesis of that. And in other words, I'm flitting around trying to answer a problem. I don't even know what the problem is. Be quiet except for a minute, for a week, for a month or whatever, that you're not where you want to be, you're not. It's not working. But like, let me do another course. That's not the answer. Getting another high level client is not the answer. Right?

You're nailing it. Because that's exactly what I was doing with, with peaceful media. Yeah, well, the answer to this, the answer to that surface level problem, which is typically finances, is go find another client, Hustle, hustle, hustle, and get desperate. You know, like typically those, those moves are desperate moves and they are not. Not only do they not solve what your soul is actually looking for, but they exacerbate it.

That's it.

Right?

That's it.

So, so sit with that. Recognize that you're in a season. Be okay with that. Give yourself some acceptance, some of that emotional courage that Peter was talking about. And then I recommend, as hard as this was for me, soul art the second A.

What is that?

So for everyone, it's gonna Look a little different. Here's here. Where my quote unquote, canvases. A literal canvas.

So I painted painter.

I'm not a painter. I paint, you know.

You're a damn painter, man. But I don't mean by that. No, I'm gonn selling in Soho tomorrow. I didn't mean it like that. I mean the way you express yourself. You enjoy painting. Let's put it that way. Sure.

So again, our soul doesn't use the words. It doesn't know exactly how to write a prescription for its cure. All it wants from you is. And I is to listen. And so if we'll give it a venue, which is usually art, whether that's journaling and just like stream of consciousness journaling, coloring books, drawing, painting, building Lincoln log houses. I don't know what it is. Like something that allows your soul to just say, here I am. And build symbolic communication. The soul communication to whatever's up here saying what it wants to say. Right.

You know, for me, that's singing. And I get to a place where, like, I'm humming. Like, the energy's humming.

Yeah.

Then answers come. But I'm never like that any other time. So. Oh, I'm with you. Love it.

Yeah. So grab your favorite soul art and force yourself. I'm telling you, force yourself.

Yeah. You're not. It's going to be the antithesis of what you think you want to do. Nobody wants to slow down in the dark night.

Yeah. Quick example. When I'm in my dark night, I look back at my journal and it's like crickets. It's like one on New Year's Eve. Well, that was a f ed up year. You know, something's really not right. You know, it's like, oh, my God.

And then.

And then, oh, oh. And then me, like, chiding and chastising and like, disavowing the person that had written all the light and bright stuff previously. Like, I'm reading this stuff you wrote and it's all bull.

Oh, no.

You know, it is like a split personality. I've been called bipolar, but I don't even think it is. I think it's just that my soul has split off from the life I've been leading.

And you're angry about it.

I'm. And it's. Yeah. And there's. That part's angry. And this part's saying, but listen, please.

Rough.

Yes. So force yourself to at least jot down some words in your journal. As hard as this may sound. The gratitude journal, I'm sure you all Know about the power of that. A blurb, Just a blurb about one thing. The celery, the crunchiness of the celery.

Oh, you know, can I give you an example? I sprained my knee and the, the most favorite thing under singing for me is playing tennis with my 20 year old son. Blew it, don't have it. So I'm like. And then I always think it could be worse. That sounds horrible. It's not that I'm trying to, you know, prey on unhappy, you know, unfortunate people, but I could have lost my leg. I could have. Could have fallen off that boat and instead of spraining it, the propeller, I could have, you know, lost my leg. So whatever you got to do to make you feel like it's not always going to be so dark.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe that's about going and seeing what some other people are dealing with in terms of life circumstances. You called the knee and not playing. Being able to play tennis a first world problem. One of your other podcasts. And yeah, so go look at the other side of that. So look at the other end of the spectrum and see what that life is like.

Love it. What's the third s?

So the third A is soul activity. And I would just, I would just start with this sentence. When I was a child, I used to love blank.

Oh, that's a good one.

What's yours, Kathy? Go ahead and say the whole thing.

Wow. So much. When things go blank for me like that, it means I'm going deep. Like soul gets nervous. What came to me is I love to play tennis, but really it's because there was prowess there. I was good. I was number one. There was joy in excellence. So there was tennis. I would say singing and friends, I'm a social creature. Just being with my pals.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would, me personally, I would stick to an activity. So it's hard to like create. I mean, you can do all sorts of things for excellence, but you need, when you're in this space, you need a nugget. You need like that vision of yourself as a child deeply enjoying something.

I mean, it was tennis because that was my thing. But I can't do that now, so that's gonna. That hurts.

You can't do it the way you've done it.

True. I said to my son, can I just stand there and you can hit me balls, but I'm probably gonna tear my meniscus again because I can't do that.

Stop it.

Stop that. I hear you. Do what brought you joy. Do what you were in the flow of. I say that.

Bingo. Bingo.

It's not gone. We just forgot it. I love it. What was it for you? What did you love?

I mean, anything in nature. Climbing trees, playing in the river, sitting in creeks. I mean, that's always been it. And again, everything in your dark night, you know, weird thinking, will say, no, that's not a good use of your time. That is not going to fix the problem. I refuse to create room on my schedule for your soul. Schedule.

That voice is even annoying. What do we call the opposite of our soul voice? The ego voice. The scared voice. The controlling voice.

Yeah, control. The controlling voice.

Control. I don't like that voice.

I know.

I don't like it.

Okay, so the fourth. A soul association.

I feel a retreat coming on. Can I come?

So this is about being surrounded by people who see you in your real, in your truth, who see the truth in you. And you're clearly one of those for me. Because when you tried to get me on an interview for finding Brave, I didn't feel brave. And so I, you know, I honestly did miss the day we were going to just. And that's again, this sort of psychic energy kind of stuff, like, oh, how did I miss. I never miss meetings. I missed it, you know, or didn't even know it was coming. Let's reschedule. That was more me. Like, I'm not brave right now. I'm not feeling me. I don't like. I'm not my light. I'm something else right now. And you know what? Going back to acceptance, now that I know that framework, that's going to be okay.

Yeah. And you know what? It was right, that you missed it, because it's not that you should be ashamed or it's that to be on the other side of it and turn the mess into a message, which so many, you know, amazing inspirers do. We can cleanse ourselves of the darkness a little bit because we do. It can be like that blanket that we can, you know, put away lovingly. But, I mean, it was all right. And that's the acceptance. Everything is as it should be, even if we don't. Even if we hate it.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's good that you missed it because now you're sharing with us how you over not overcame it. Wrong words. Words make no sense. How you're in another place now and you can teach us.

Yeah, I can provide a little bit of hope for myself when I, you know, next time I'm in a dark night of the soul, I'll come back and listen to this podcast and go, oh, good tips, you know, and can.

I talk about association for one minute? I think when you're in your sole place, most often your tribe and the world and society bulks at it. I remember the first time I said, I saw some woman in the grocery store and she said, what are you up to? I said, I got laid off from my corporate job. I'm leaving it for other. I'm becoming a therapist. And this is what she said. You gonna do what? Why do you feel you need to do that? And, you know, I went, slicked my wounds. The traditional world doesn't want this. This soul nonsense. I mean, I know some religious groups love it, but the traditional world gets very scared of it. So you gotta find people who go, well, thank God, finally, you know, finally you're putting your hands on me.

I mean, ideal.

I.

And yeah, you're right. Like, in an ideal world, all we are is, like, expressing our light and love, right? So, yeah, well, hey, that our. There is something. There is a rudder in our bodies and our spirits that says, you know, I need to course correct here. And the more we disavow that and not listen to it and whatever, it's going to hurt more.

You're gonna love this. You know, I studied Reiki and my Elliot, who's now about to be 21, my son, it was when he was like in sixth grade, and. And I put. I would put my hands on him, and he'd be asleep in a minute, and one day he said, mommy, Reiki me. I'm like, I've arrived. And I put my hands on Mommy. I got a headache. Reiki me. Find the people that really are simpatica with who you are. What a waste of time if you don't.

Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, that's the best. The sort of currency that we. We have amassed in life, that's the only currency that's gonna matter, is those associations. So it was that currency that came back and paid dividends when I'm in the dark night, because I have people chiming back to me, reflecting back to me, you're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay. Let me give you some perspective. You know, you can think of it as just wearing someone else's eyeglasses for a minute. You know, I would that your parents.

Were that for you, was your mom in a.

In a. You know, we'll support you. You know, we got your back, which is helpful, don't get me wrong. I mean, that's that's a huge like, okay, there's a, there's a soft place to land right. Or softer. Might look like living in my parents basement again, but it's softer than, hey kids, welcome to our Miller van. You know, but I would, I would rather than just on the association front and I'll move on to the fifth, rather than slamming all this stuff onto Facebook in a big rant thread and hoping that you're going to get like the validation or insight or encouragement that's actually going to move the needle. I don't know, maybe that has. Maybe that works for you. I find that like completely fruitless. What makes a much deeper impact in my life, the sitting down with that one friend who understands soul work, who, who understands you on a really deep level and what you're really good at and what you know that will listen to your dream or that divine purpose calling whatever it is, whatever ickiness is coming out of your voice, but trying to say what it is, they will help you massage it and find the words and get clarity and even clear out some of the obstacles that you thought made this impossible so that you can move forward. And hopefully you have a friend or colleague in your life that can provide that. I know I do. And they're treasured.

Oh, I so agree. And I would say if you got to put it on Facebook, what you're trying to do is validate yourself. That's not where you want to need to go here. You need to find that one person or two people that love you unconditionally, see what's inside of you. I call it the future vision of you before it's hatched. They hold you in that light. And that ain't Facebook, folks.

There you go. If you're looking for a new place to live, go on Facebook. If you're looking for a new life, go to your friends.

Oh, that's a good one. What's the fifth?

Okay, fifth one is action. Action. Action.

Oh, tell us what comes in.

That's goal based action. So you at this point, because you've had conversations with internally and externally with people you trust and who love you deeply, I bet I can put money on this, that you have sun. You have an inkling of what you are being called to do. Now what you need to do is I actually take some action towards that. It can be the, it can be a baby step. It doesn't need to be. You know, I'm signing up for an 18 month long shamanism program in Peru, for example. Right, right. So to pull this back into action for my book. Bob the Flightless Bird. Started that eight years ago, journaled about it, picked it back up three years later, dropped it, picked it up three years later again, drawing, starting. Oh, what is this controlling. What is this character gonna do? Where's that. Who's this character? And what's their story arc? And all this plot stuff. I had to get it all figured out, right?

Yeah.

And. Okay, drop it. And then lately, in my most recent, you know, sort of Dark Knight or existential crisis, which lasted over a year, if I'm being honest, is it was this trying to emerge. And the reason. All the reasons why I couldn't allow that merge is because I didn't. Wasn't doing any of those things I just mentioned. Right. I needed to do. I needed to solve those problems that were creating some, you know, friction. No doubt about it, like, okay, piece of media needs more clients. We were. Our agency needs to transform a little bit and become something different. Like, yes, all those things happen and needed to happen. And that wasn't really the problem. The problem was, is that I wasn't living a part of me that was. That was like, it's the bamboo shoot trying to press out of the ground.

Mm.

It's like, come on, man. Come on, Let me out. Give me some light. And until that could happen, I was stuck. And I refused. I refused to put my flashlight on it.

And was that the book for you or other things?

So as soon as I started drawing again, I started doing. I started doing some of these processes. The acceptance. Yeah, I did do some acceptance. Started working with a little bit of a spiritual mentor. Did some acceptance work, did some. Lots of art that had nothing to do with necessarily with the book. Just letting myself communicate with myself. Does that make sense? My bigger self talk to my smaller self, and then activities such as sitting in trees and lying in rivers and bathing in the forest, and then associating with really powerful people in my life who told me who I really am, reminded me who I really am. And then the action was, I had a client say randomly, who's very intuitive, said, hey, so when are you writing your next book?

Oh, gosh.

And I go, you know, I feel something. I feel something. And I went home. And the next morning, I started writing Bob the Flightless Bird. And eight weeks later, it was done.

Oh, gosh, how wonderful.

And I couldn't be happier. It's gonna.

It's a mess here. We do. We're going on and on, but you're an artist. You have an artist soul. And I think exactly, you know, for anyone who's listening, the entrepreneurial journey is for a warrior. But so I want to. I want to say a few things and I want you to tell me if I'm getting it. Jason, when we honor who we really are, like, I do think I'm a healer. That's what I'm doing in career coaching. That's what I'm doing on Forbes. Call me nuts. I'm healing because I'm saying you're okay. That's exactly what I'm working on. My six dominant action styles. It's six style, seeker, striver. It's really saying you're okay. You're gorgeous exactly as you are. So it doesn't mean that you are necessarily gonna chuck your business. It means that there are facets of us and some facets need expression, as if it's a physical, bodily need. And if you don't express, let it out. Like, you're making me want to go back. I have this screenplay I'm writing which I made all perfectionistic over functioner. Hired a great LA coach and I just made myself sick about it because it's a past life story and it's. It's my past life story, but it's scary and like, he's like, you're not gonna believe how hard this is gonna be. And it was. Because it's not just a telling of a little story. It's like me in another Life in the 1500s. Really any makes me want to do it. But the point is, I'm dying to know where your business is and how you feel about your business. Yeah, but I'm guessing it doesn't mean folks that were saying you, you should not be an entrepreneur. It means if you're a healer, you gotta heal. If you're an artist, you gotta be an artist. Like, for me, I can't not write. Right. Writing is incredibly cathartic for me. Like, if I'm pissed at somebody or I feel a deep regret, I'm gonna write my viral post. Top 10 regrets of midlife Professional viral. You have to do what your soul wants to do. And if you're compromising your integrity and your love and compassion and your healthiness, your health to do entrepreneurial work, then something's really got to change.

You said something really important that about not having to ditch the things you've started.

Yeah. I want to hear your thoughts.

Relationship. That could also be a business, that could be a house. I mean, so like, take that for what you will and Your. Whatever your symbols are. I did have some advice from very, very strong business people in my life, say, it's time for you to get out, you know, And I was like, man, now I had to really, like, decipher. Am I scared? I feel that causes a lot of fear for me. But is that because I'm attached to that identity and attached to that income and quote, unquote, stability, security? Or is it just the wrong thing? Is it. Or is it just the wrong thing? Exactly. Does it change all those things or is it the right thing? And that's again, where, like, developing your ability to listen deeply within. And it's probably not going to happen. It's probably going to happen out in nature somewhere, you know, like, get deep and listen, listen, listen. Because some of that advice will come at you pretty strong. It may send you down a path that's just. It's not exactly what your soul is asking for. There's just no, like, there's no cue card or, like, turn right at the. At the sign, you know, like, this is. This is all like, just. It's a spectrum of listening to ourselves. Right. So I'm glad I didn't, because what I did need to do, not sell the business or find my replacement or find, you know, exit strategy or anything like that. I'm here to stay at Peaceful Media. Peaceful Media becomes an umbrella for the healing work that I do.

My God. And you said, you know, it's weird. I went to your website since when we last did our webinar two years ago, I felt a complete difference. I felt like, this is for healers. This is for spiritually. Yes, peaceful. But more than that, spiritually connected people. I mean, connected with their own spirituality. There was one other thing I wanted to say. Are you putting your hands on people?

So I am. And I'm scares. Scares my family to death.

Why?

Yeah, I tell you little stories. You know, people walk up to me on the beach and they're clearly disillusioned and disoriented and ready to go. And I asked. I asked the man to lie down next to our campfire, and I did work on him. And he was just. He's like, man, I've never felt this kind of peace. You know, I say it because you.

You know, I'm going to admit this, and I know you're probably going to say something magical. When I started doing therapy, I would see in my mind videos of things I had no business knowing about them.

Oh, for sure.

You know, and it happens often when you're in close, close, close, you know, and, and I do want to say when I put my hands on people one time I. It was cancer patients and I couldn't breathe. And I looked to our teacher, Lynn Carroll, who I have interviewed, and I was like. And she came over and put her hand on my back and it was like the hand of God, whatever you would feel like, you know. So I have to say to you, you are a powerful healer that you can take on like your friends, solar plexus mess. I. You know, you have to be incredibly strong to be able to do that work. But you are. So I would say. And it is scary because it defies what we've been taught. Like, how can I know this about you and you never said anything. I'm scared because it's power and it's energy from another source.

Yeah.

But I want to see you doing retreats through peaceful media.

So speak of the. Speak of the angel. That's exactly what I've done. I'm launching. Just got done with the landing page yesterday. Launching an experience called the Ion experience, which stands for in our nature. And it's just a close knit, intimate, ongoing mastermind with me with. To solstice. Powerful.

So when's the next one? September 21st.

No, December, winter solstice. And I'll just set the intention now that it's. It's gonna be in Kauai promoting the.

Hell out of it. And you know, what a beautiful marriage that this baby that you worked so hard and know it wasn't perfect and it's first incarnation, peaceful media. It's going to be a marriage of who you really are. But we're many things. You're an incredible entrepreneur and incredible visionary in marketing, but you're also a healer. Why are those separate?

Yeah, they don't have to be at all. No. But where do I spend most of my time? That's. That's a big thing I've rejiggered over the last quarter. So I take Fridays off to work on my book and create or go play, you know, that's. That's my time to bring all the bright light and energy up, you know, so like, I don't know, not everybody's gonna have that option. But it was my time, you know, and that allows me the space to create things that nurture my soul and that's. We gotta do that.

Little kids too, don't you, Jason?

Two little girls, three in one.

Oh. So you got to be with them and pour all that amazing healing energy towards them too.

Of Course. Yeah.

Holy crow. What a. What a. This is the raw, most raw finding brave. And how. What. I'm so grateful. You are so rare. Remember when you said to me, you know, I'm so glad you didn't give up when you. When you kind of disappeared on my invitation?

Yeah.

Why would I disappear on somebody who's such a gem in the world? So important, so of use, so full of love. I really appreciate your telling the real story. And folks, you know, I can't wait to hear what you have to say. Some of you are going to be like, whoa, those two don't have it going on on itunes. But I think more are gonna say, holy. I was feeling that. Everything that they said times 100.

Yeah. Yeah. As soon as we like, man, we give ourselves permission to play like. Like this. It's. Who gives a shit?

And you know what? We'll do that. We'll do all of these things. It's acceptance, doing the art forms that we love. It's activity. It's at, but it's association. We're going to hear from. You're going to hear your. Your retreats going to be jam packed with people who know they have a big mission and they wanted to be in business and entrepreneurial, but their soul is sad and lost.

Yeah.

I'm so happy that you joined when you did. This is an incredible. This framework you'll work, you'll use in your retreat. I'm sure some version of it.

Yeah.

And when will your book be out?

Now, so I'd love to tell. I'd love to ask people to come join me on Instagram because we'll be sharing the entire book through Instagram and I'm working with an illustrator who's also on the Peaceful Media team. No coincidence.

What's your Instagram handle?

Just slash, Peaceful Media.

Peaceful Media. We'll put that. We'll link that down below. When's that starting where you're sharing?

That'll. That'll happen in September. Yeah.

Bravo to you. I'm giving you a big hug in every possible way. Soul, heart.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Kathy, for, you know, as a leader of this, of this movement of finding brave. Thanks for being brave enough to just say, you know what? Sometimes I don't got my shit together. I'm gonna share it with you so that you can grow, too.

And at the risk of no, you know, hoping that, you know, that I take that in, that means the world to me. I'll be listening to this. You know, when I don't feel brave which is a lot of the time. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's such a gift to have you. Come back. Come back. Bob the flightless bird. When, when the flight. Obviously he flies right in some way.

We'll see.

All right. I can't wait. Come back again soon. Jason, thank you so much.

Much love to everyone listening to this.

Thanks everybody. There's nothing to say. I'm saying bye. No tip. No, no. Oh, there's something to say.

I got one. It's our, it's our mission statement. It's a three part trip tip. Love more, play more, do more good. That's it.

That's how we end it. Learn more, play more, do more good. Let us know what you think. Everybody. Have an incredible week and see you next time. Bye, Jason.