Finding Brave Ep 53: Why It Helps Men To Join The Gender Equality Movement, with Michael Kaufman

Hello everybody. Kathy Caprino here and welcome to Finding Brave. How are you this week? I hope it's all going wonderfully. I hope the holidays have been great for you and continue to be wonderful and that you can be your brave self in connection with your loved ones and your family and friends. And I am just beyond honored and thrilled to have our guest, Michael Kaufman here today. Michael, hello.

Great to be with you today.

Thank you so much for joining us folks. You're in for an incredible 30 minutes. I don't even think I can keep it to 30 minutes. But Michael is here to talk about his new book coming up and we are going to explore why it helps men to join the gender equality revolution. I have so many questions and I bet you do too. So hang on to your hats and do forgive me, I have a bit of a cold, so I'm a little hoarse and funny sound but I know you'll bear with me. So everyone, let me tell you about Michael, who's from Toronto right now. Oh my gosh. Michael Coffin, Ph.D. is a writer, advisor and speaker focused on engaging men to promote gender equality, end violence against women and transform the lives of men. He has worked in 50 countries with the United nations, good gracious governments, NGOs, women's organizations and businesses. He's the co founder of the White Ribbon Campaign, which I want to hear more about. Michael and senior fellow with Promundo based in Washington D.C. and last year was the only male member of Justin Trudeau's G7 gender equality advisory Council. Wow. The only male member, the author of eight books, including two novels. His newest book is the Time Has Come why Men Must Join the Gender Equality Revolution. So Michael, wow, thank you again for joining us. So let's, let's dig in here. Tell us why this book and why, why, why is it so important to get men involved in this gender equality revolution?

Well, we're living in this absolutely amazing time. You know, 8, 10,000 years of male dominated societies are coming to an end and is happening in our lifetime. I mean, you and I get to be part of something that our great, great, great, great, great grandchildren are going to be still talking about. Within that, there's really two choices for men. Men can be roadblocks. We can throw up our resistance, whether that resistance is in legislation or in thwarting women's advancement or in continuing to for some men to use violence in their relationships, continue to block change. Or we can say this revolution is the right thing to do, it's the right thing to support. You know, you Know, I think more and more men are realizing the latter. More and more men are saying, this is absolutely critical. It's critical for the well, beings of our families, of our communities, of our businesses, of the women and girls who we love and care about, of the many women and girls we'll never ever meet. But we know, more and more of us know that whether you measure it in terms of women's safety in their own home, women's advancement in careers, women's health, women's just right to be at work without being harassed, you know, the list could go on and on. More and more men are saying, yeah, this is where we've got to go. And even if they didn't say it, men are saying this is where it is going. But here's the amazing thing that I think men are beginning to discover. This sounds weird, but this is the theme of the book, is that the gender equality revolution and feminism, yes, they are about women gaining, absolutely. But actually they're not about men losing. I actually think that feminism is the greatest gift that men have ever had. And that's probably something we wanted to talk about. So you know, men and gender equality, it's not a zero sum game. Yes, there are forms of privilege and power that men have got to give up. I mean, you know, think of it. What does the male dominate society? Well, essentially it's an 8,000 year old affirmative action program for men. So okay, that's got to end. And with it, some of the privileges that go with it. All the privileges that go with it. But at the same time, and we can look at this, I think there's so much that men will have to gain and I think a lot of men are beginning to realize that.

Oh, Michael, hang on here. I got so many questions, but I want to interject this. I don't. You probably didn't see it, but I think it was maybe a year and a half ago I did a Forbes post and a video on what is feminism and why are so many men and women. Why do so many men and women hate it? And Michael, suffice it to say I got so much vitriolic rageful comments that my own, she was 22 at the time, 22 year old daughter said, mom, why you have this on YouTube? It's uncensored. The comments, get it off of there. It was scary to me, Michael, and what people said. So there's a question here behind this story, what people said. Men and women are number one, feminism is horrific. Number two, women are already running the world. Men have already been emasculated, castrated, stripped. Both men and women said there is no evidence that any of this is happening to women in a negative way, that there's that much violence, that women aren't in control. So here's my question. I would just love to know what are the influences in your life that you would be able to say from your heart that this is a great thing for men? You know, it's a very special viewpoint, Michael. I mean, maybe in the work that you do, you see a lot of evolved people, but in the work I do, I don't see many men embracing this yet. They say we have to get on this bandwagon, but I don't feel. I don't see people doing what you do, which is embracing it. How are you so different? I'm interested.

So, you know, just like I said, a ton of things for you to answer. There's actually a lot to unpack, what you just said. That's. And let's do that. There is the question about men embracing it. And I think there are a lot of men these days who are saying, yeah, I want to do something. This is something I want to support, but I'm not quite sure how to do it or what to do or what not to do or what to say or what not to say. And part of what my book does is just talk about those things to give men the tools to take action, but also give women the tools to engage men. I think a lot of the readers of this book are going to be women. We're trying to figure out, how do I engage the men who I work with, who I live with, who I love, who I mother, who I, you know, partner, whatever it might be. So part of. There's. There's a number of very practical things that we have time we can get to. You know, there's. There's. That two bigger questions I think are so important that you just posed. One is, is this reality? You know, is it, you know, do we have it all wrong and actually women are running the world or something? That. That, yes, maybe in the past, you know, it was gender unequal, but now, you know, the feminist future is now here. Let's first say this. Because of the courage and strength of so many women, we have made as a society incredible changes. Let's celebrate that. Let's say, you know, that's what movements do. Movements do when they work. They bring about change. In this case, really positive change. And so it's true, we're not in the same situation. We were 40, 50 years ago. Things have improved in some ways all over the world, in some countries more than others. That's true. But if we just look at the statistics on how much women are making versus how much men are making, if we look at just the numbers, who is running our congresses and parliaments, who is running our courts, who's running our media, who's running our religious establishments? Yes, we've seen inroads by women, but it's still unequal. When we look at good studies and there's a lot of just trash studies that just get recycled, but good studies by governments, by the United nations, just the top studies on interpersonal violence, what we find is that when it comes to domestic violence, for example, yes, men can experience that. But when it comes to domestic violence that causes a woman to miss work, to have to go to a doctor or hospital, or live in terror, it's disproportionate. Men are much more likely to unlikely to experience that from women. The other truth around men's violence, a lot of men experience violence, but through the course of a man's life, it's disproportionately and sadly committed by other men. But of course, if it's committed by a woman and it's not in self defense, of course it's wrong. No one would say it's right. So we still live in that, we've made progress, we still live in that gender unequal world. But here's the incredible but. And I think this is a lot of what men experience. We look around, we say, okay, we're supposed to have power, right? We're men. But most men don't feel powerful. Most men don't feel in control. Most men carry around this incredible burden of not being able to live up to the expectations of manhood. You know, for example, I tell a story in my book, I tell a lot of stories in my book. It's not an academic book, but it's a story of when my son was born. And this is how early it starts on boys and men, this pressure to be a real man, to fit into these impossible expectations. So there we are in the delivery room. My kid had been born five seconds. And at this point I didn't even know if it was a boy or a girl. Now it's not because I'm dumb. I kind of know the difference at this point. I had so many tears in my eyes, I couldn't see the little thing. And I mean the little thing on the little thing. I didn't know if it was a boy or girl until the nurse spoke. Now, until this moment, the nurse had been speaking in her normal voice. And suddenly her voice dropped down deep and she said, it's a boy. What a strong little fellow. And I was totally shocked, you know, not because it was a boy. I had taken high school biology. I kind of figured 50, 50 chance. I was shocked by the change in her voice, what she said. I knew if it had been a girl, her voice would have gone even higher and she would have said, oh, what a pretty little thing. So here he was, five seconds old, being, you know, fitted first, first Green Bay packers jersey or something. And that's what happens. From the moment of birth, boys face this enormous pressure to always be strong, always be tough, always be in control. To have no fear, to not show too many emotions, to not show anything that we deem as being weak, to just tough it out, never back down, have all the answers, don't ask for help. You know, it just goes on and on. And the truth is, you know, and of course now you supposed to have this, you know, super ripped body, which, you know, you know, of course I am a specimen. I do have that total. No, you know, it's like this crazy stuff. None of us can live up to it. And here's what happens. We just assume because, you know, we do learn to play the role. We do learn to act like it's just cool feelings. I don't have feelings, I'm tough. We learn to act the role. So we look around, particularly when we're boys, and we think, well, he's a real man, He's a real man. He's a real man. I must be the only guy who can't live up to this stuff. And so what happens? You, you know what happens? Well, what happens is sort of this dialogue of doubt, this dialogue of doubt about making the masculine grade, about living up to these armor plated expectations about what it means to be a man. And none of us can live up to it. So what happens? And here's what happens. Men die younger than women. We die younger because we don't ask for help, because we're more likely to engage in risk taking behaviors. Because when we're doing dangerous jobs, traditionally we don't use safety equipment and so on because it wouldn't be the manly thing to do, because we're more likely to just numb the pain we're feeling in alcohol and other drugs. We're more likely to be in prison. So there's this huge litany that men actually experience. And they look around and say, men's power. Are you kidding? I don't feel any of that stuff. What I'm saying here is this absolutely amazing paradox. We live in a world of men's power where just by virtue of birth, half of us have certain privileges. But at the same time, the ways that we have traditionally defined men's lives come with a huge cost, a huge burden to men, ourselves. And this paradox is at the core of men's experiences. So what it means is that men are right if they look around and say, I don't feel I've got power, because they're never going to live up to the expectations of what power is supposed to look like. At the same time, it's the reason why gender equality is going to be and is increasingly a great gift to men. Because just as women said, well, there's all sorts of things we weren't supposed to be able to be and to do. And women have said, screw that, I'm going to be tough, I'm going to be this, I'm going to be that. As well as all the traditional things, men get to do the same now. And I'll tell you where we're seeing the biggest change in that, the biggest embrace. We are right now seeing this major transformation in what it means to be a father. We're seeing more and more men saying that this is my priority. When my kids were young, this is decades ago, you know, I would do something and, you know, I'd say to a friend, oh, I can't do something tonight because I'm looking after the kids. And they say, oh, so great how much you help out. Or they'd say, oh, you're babysitting. And I'd say, no, you don't babysit your own kids. I'm not helping out. I'm being a parent. That was maybe unusual 30 years ago. I'd tell you right now if you tell, you know, most, not all, but many anyway, young fathers in your 20s and their 30s, oh, it's great. You help out. I'll tell you to screw off. They say, I don't help out. I'm a dad. And this is a major revolution in men's lives. And the thing about it is, it's happening because women pushed us. Because women, you know, are pursuing jobs, sports, whatever, their own education. So women pushed us. But once women pushed us, more and more men have eagerly embraced it and doing it because we know it's the. It's what our families are about now. But also knowing as hard as it is, as miserable as it can be to be a parent, and it can be miserable at times, it's also the greatest thing. So this is an example of where gender equality is bringing about great change.

I love it. All right now, Michael, I kind of. Not kind of. I get choked up when I hear you talk, because I can feel that it's so from the heart. And even the fact that five seconds into having a baby, you're aware of what the nurse sounds like when she announces it. So I've got to just go back because I do think it's important. Somehow we'll find out. How is it that you're so sensitive to this balance? And I know you have a Ph.D. you know, what was your background, that how did you get here that you're able to embrace this the way I need to understand that? Will you share?

Yeah. And again, there's several things that I do talk about in the time has come. Sometimes I'm interviewed by journalists because I've done, over the years, over the decades, a lot of work on ending violence against women. And the journalists will ask that question, and they'll be really embarrassed because they think they're going to hear some horror story from my. Tell me, Michael, Tell me your story. And I'd say I grew up with this absolutely loving and caring and strong dad and this loving, caring, strong woman as a mother. And, you know, it's. I think that's part of it, that I grew up in a home in the 50s and 60s. I grew up in Ohio and North Carolina, as you can tell from my heavy Southern accent. But Ohio, Ohio, Cleveland, and then Durham, North Carolina. And then my parents, who were Canadian, moved back to Canada in my late teens and moved with them. It was in many ways a traditional 50s and 60s home. And yet there was a strong belief in equality. I had four sisters. I'm sure that was an influence. And it was assumed that all of us would have professional careers, which wasn't usual at that time. But then. And when I hit university in the late 60s, early 70s, all my women friends were feminists. That, of course, had a huge influence. So on one level, I've just been influenced by amazing women in my life, my life, you know, my mother, my sisters, my friends, you know, my lovers. I mean, you know, right down the line from over the years. That's one thing. The other thing is I started doing some peer counseling in the late 70s. And, you know, this was a moment where I for the first time realized that as a man, I wasn't the only guy who couldn't live up to these expectations. I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one who just felt he was playing a game. And I was sitting with these other men, and one guy was this total jock, and another guy was some very successful business guy. I had them pegged as just, well, you're all successful as men. We all said the same thing. We can't live up to these expectations. That was a big light bulb moment for me. And I think the other thing that happened was, was growing up in the 1960s in North Carolina, the early 60s when we moved there, things were still racially segregated. And my parents had a rule, and that is, we didn't go to any place that was segregated. So it meant we barely ever went out to eat. We didn't go into any movies. And as a little kid, you know, fourth, fifth, sixth grade, you want to do what all your friends are doing. And, you know, my friends, the schools were segregated. Some of my friends from school all, you know, had similar skin color as me. So I wanted to do what they were doing. And what my parents said was, was this. They said, you know, michael, as long as everyone can't do that, we don't do it.

Oh, my God.

And this began to teach me that you've got to take sides. It began to teach me you can't just say, well, you know, I can do it. That's someone else's problem. And so I think as the women's movement started, as I started thinking about what that meant, it became a process for me, being challenged. Now, I want to be really clear. I'm not some sort of, you know, I'm not some sort of, you know, above sexism Angel. You know, I think there. I know there are so many ways where I just did not understand, and I don't just mean back in the 60s or 70s, but, you know, as this journey in the 80s, 90s now, there's so many things, you know, I think, what's key? And I have a. Near the beginning of the book, I talk about the importance of men listening to women's voices. Just like, if I want to understand the reality of racism, I'm not gonna ask a white friend. I'm gonna ask a person of color to talk to me about his or her realities if I want to. I'm a straight guy, so if I want to understand the homophobia, heterosexism, I'm going to ask an LGBTQ person. So if I want to understand as a man, if I want to understand the realities of sexism, what women face, the things that are just invisible to me, what it means to have to, you know, if you're a student and you're going, you know, to a party or, I don't know, out with someone, hang out for the first time, you know, to tell a roommate, here's where I'm going, here's when I'll be back. As a guy, you don't worry about these things. If, you know, as a guy, I can go into an interview for a job. Let's say I'm 30, and no one's gonna be wondering, geez, I wonder when he's gonna get pregnant. You know, so these things, you know, that are part of women's realities, of sexual harassment, of violence. So the only way I'm ever gonna understand that stuff is by asking questions and respectfully listening. And it doesn't mean I. I have to agree with everything I hear.

Excuse me.

Women are going to have different opinions and ideas, but to listen with respect, to take it in. So I think part of men's journeys have to include listening. Now, when I say listen, it doesn't mean listen with guilt. It doesn't mean to sort of say, oh, I'm responsible for all the problems of mankind. So what this means is listening with humility, not listening with guilt, some sort of collective blame. You know, feminism is not about collective blame of men, in spite of what the stereotypes we hear. And it's important, I think, when all of us are talking men or women, you know, to avoid phrases like men always, or you always, or all men. I mean, there's no such thing as men always or you always. Just not like that's not reality, or women always or. Or feminists always. It's just not like that. So it is about, I think, building a real. Building communities, whether that community is our workplace, our neighborhoods, our friendship circles, our homes, our families, where we as women and men feel safe, respected, appreciated, and encouraged in this incredible gender equality revolution. Because, you know, we're doing something that no one has done for thousands of years. We're sort of turning the ship of a society, and we're challenging something that is embedded in our cultures, in our religions, in our political structures, in our laws. And so to change that, it's a big deal, but it's also embedded in our brains. I love it.

I love it. Let me stop you and ask you. I want to talk about me, too, but here's what I. In the 10 minutes we have left, you know, I just wrote a piece on Forbes about how women tend to say they're sorry when they're not sorry and how to stop that and what I tend to do, and I want to ask you about your approach. I tend to intervene at the individual level. I don't tend to intervene at the institutional and organizational level because my job, Joy, is helping people come up with practical steps that can change, that can turn the Titanic around from their perspective, from their ground, you know, base. So for me, in that piece, it was how to be aware of your language, to understand why you're saying you're sorry when you're not. And here's some new ways to be more direct rather than apologetic. If I were to say to you, and well, I'll read your book for sure, but if you could give, let's say, men here or women or both, three practical steps in their life, in their workplace, that they can join the gender equality revolution, what would those practical, doable steps be?

I think, first of all to say they're going to be different for different people. You know, we'd need both. We do need both individual change, and we need the institutional and social change. And I think the first step is to. Is to say, what difference can I make? That's the first step. So it may be what you can do in your home to bring about gender equality in your home. You know, in my chapter on parenting, and, you know, talk about some concrete things, I say, okay, here's one you could do. If you're in a heterosexual couple or any couple, do an audit. Figure out who does what jobs, how long it takes, how long it takes to figure them out. You have to be in a really good mood to do this. Glass of wine or something.

Why? Because it's so not easy.

Work through it. I mean, there's a really concrete thing to figure out, what's happening in your home, in your workplaces. You know, if you're a man in a workplace, start talking to women, find out what are the barriers for women. Do some reading, do some thinking. Part of what my book talks about is it looks at the evidence base we have. So, you know, part of it, part of what I think I say to people is to do is make a commitment, make a personal commitment to be a leader. Now, a leader doesn't mean you've got to run for president, although we could use, you know, some new action on that side, too. But being a leader might mean in your locker room, on your sports team. It might be just on the shop floor. It could be a Leader at the top of your company just depends where you are, where you're leading. It could be a leader from the pulpit of your religious establishment. So to be that leader and to be a leader means to speak out, it means to listen, it means to learn. It means to take appropriate action. But to do it with joy. To do it as you. Yeah, this is hard stuff, but it is also wonderful stuff that is positively changing all of our lives in spite of wrinkles and challenges and difficult stuff. So I think that's the third thing. Do it with joy. This is about change that is going to benefit women and men, and certainly it's going to benefit the children of the future.

Oh, my God, look, I'm choked up. Not just because I've got a bad cold, but, you know, you are the walking embodiment of it. We can see it. You're embracing it because you know it is the right thing. But you also know what it will bring to your life and your loved one's life and our children's children's lives. Michael, where can people learn more about you? Where can they read your book? Are there courses you give? Tell us all about it, please.

Yeah, I make my living speaking, so, you know, get invited to speak at different events, conferences with different organizations. I used to do a lot of training, but don't do that so much anymore. But my new book, that might be the place to start. It's called the Time Has Come why Men Must Join the Gender Equality Revolution. And it's published for those of you who are watching this earlier on. It's published on January 15, 2019, and that's being published by Counterpoint Press. It's coming out as an audiobook by Brilliant Audio, so that would be a place to go. So it explores these themes. It talks about, really, practically some of the things that women and men can do. Tells a lot of stories. It doesn't, you know, as they say, it's not about beating people over the head, but really inviting them into a conversation. And if people are interested, they can, you know, if it's before the publication date, please, you know, yourself or someone else, please pre order it. But, you know, to be serious, you know, I think that part of it, part, you know, for men, it is about. It's about learning stuff we don't know. In part, you know, one of the things I say in it when I listen to women's voices, it's like reading this precious diary, but it's also about listening to men's voices. And I think a lot of my work over the years has been with men and sort of rethinking our lives as men, thinking about the things in the world that have been really crappy to us. And they haven't been crappy because of women. I'm not saying, you know, women have all been wonderful and made us all happy, but it's not like women have imposed a system on us. But it is about the ways that men have structured our lives in a male dominated society. And it's not just, you know, these general things about not showing feelings, but for particular groups of men, you know, particularly groups of men have been either written off or face incredible specific barriers. I mean, African American men are, you know, the rates of prison and incarceration are just, you know, over the top. The impact of racism on many men, the impact of homophobia on many men. So it's not just like men are some sort of, you know, blanket, you know, all the same, we, you know, experience these different challenges in our lives. So this is about, and I hope you know, and I'd love to hear from readers, this is a positive book about men. There is not a single word in this book that puts men down. It is about embracing change. It is about embracing gender equality. But that's because I really believe that as women and men work together for change as we bring about this gender equality revolution, as men listen to the courageous voices of women, what we're doing is indeed bringing about a better world for women. That's absolutely. That's for sure. But we're also bringing about a better world for men. And most important of all, we're bringing about a far, far better world for our children and grandchildren.

How beautiful. Michael, Excuse me. What I'd love to leave listeners with. I'm thinking I don't have this data, but the majority of my community are women is women. I think it's so important that we, all men, women alike, open our hearts and our minds to the plight of others. I mean, I think a lot of women might say we didn't touch on this, and I know we were about to conclude, but I'd love to hear you. When the MeToo movement exploded, what I heard a lot of is men saying men are getting a bad rap. I don't even know how to. I don't even know what to do anymore. I'm pretty sure if I scan back in my history, there's stuff I've done that I didn't even know was bad. I think what I want to say here is just listening to you because my world is so much about women's challenges. When I listen to you and when I listen to Terry Real, who was on my podcast, talks about the patriarchal effects, I have compassion. I have empathy for what it is to be in a prison that who knows who created it. A prison of rigid gender expectations that no one can live up to. It's crushing. And that's why there is so much rage and confusion and hatred for the other, other gender. I think what I'm saying is that if we all, men and women, can have a dialogue like this, what's it like to be a man? What's it like to be a woman? I think that'll go such a long way to really begin to bridge these. These gaps. Do you agree with that?

Yeah, it's really true. And it is. I don't want to. There's two things I would never pretend. One, and I think I was starting to say this earlier, is that, you know, as a man, this has been, you know, this is an ongoing journey. It's. It's a challenge at times. There are absolutely ways that I've acted over the years that have been inconsiderate to women. You could put a sexist label on things that. Oh, you know, I think. I can't believe I did that or said that. And I think part of this is to say we're. We're a product of this society, all of us, women and men. And as products of that society, there are things that most of us have done, and it doesn't have to be. Most of us men can say, I've never committed sexual assault. I've never hit a woman. Most of the majority of us can say that, and that's good. But then there's all, you know, there's other things. There's, you know, and I think part of it is, first of all, just in ourselves to try to base up to those things. At times, we're able to talk to someone, talk to a former partner or someone you knew or workmates and a colleague to say, I said this, I did this. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have, and try to move on. But to recognize it is difficult. There are a lot of men, it's true, who. Who are nervous, who maybe even be a bit scared. And I think we do have to say, and we have to acknowledge that this is hard stuff. I said it's positive, it's joyous. It is also challenging at times, for sure. And let's be honest about that. Let's not pretend that it's just off to the sunny future. You don't change the world so easily. So. So, yeah, it is hard. Let's acknowledge that.

That's the finding brave part. That's the finding brave part, right?

Yeah, it is. And I think moving into it with a sense of bravery, of just. And as men just say, God, look at the bravery of women to challenge this whole. This behemoth of patriarchy. Look at the bravery of a woman who leaves a scene of domestic terrorism where she's lived in fear for. For 10, 20 years. And just to emulate a bit of that bravery in our own lives. And as I say, it doesn't mean wearing sackcloth and ashes. You know, I'm proud to be a man. And, you know, I'm proud of, you know, I'm proud of the, you know, so many of the men I'm meeting. But this is about change. And those are the things I talk about in the time has come. So, yeah, I hope some listeners will have a chance to read it. There's links on my website, Michael kaufman.com and yeah, I can't thank you enough, Michael.

You're so inspiring. I think it's just your very nature, but, my God, are we lucky to have you on this planet.

Well, thank you so much.

Thank you for joining me. Thank you so much. And everyone, if you have questions, post them where I post this. This recording that can be on YouTube, that's on my Facebook page. Wherever you find this, post your questions. Because I think, as Michael is saying, we want this to be simple, but it's not easy. It's not easy. And so there are questions in the living of it that you're gonna have, and we welcome. We welcome them when we'd love to be able to answer them if we can. Thank you. Thank you, everybody. Have a wonderful week. And I really hope this was helpful to you in finding brave and bridging the gaps that we have amongst each other. All right, thanks again, Michael. Bye now. See you next time.