Finding Brave Epis. 325: How to Lead and Live with Less Stress and More Joy, with Amy Leneker

Hello everyone, this is Kathy Caprino and welcome to my podcast, Finding Brave. I've created the show for everyone who longs to create something bold and brave in their life, to rise up, speak up, and stand up for who they are and to reach their highest and biggest visions. Each week I'll be speaking with inspiring guests from all walks of business, leadership, entertainment, the creative arts, and the entrepreneurial world. And they'll be sharing their intimate stories of finding brave, and offer their best strategies for building your most rewarding, joyful, and meaningful life, business, and career. Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Finding Brave. Ah, I'm just over the moon excited today to talk about a topic. First of all, I think that we have never needed information about this, this particular topic more than this minute, and probably it will continue to be more as time goes on that we need this. So this is so vitally important, and I'm so hoping it's going to help you move forward in new ways. And we are so grateful to have Amy Laniker with us. Amy, thank you. In the middle of your book launch, you're taking the time to join us from Seattle, close to— yeah, Seattle, right? Uh, thank you for being here. I'm so grateful. And And so grateful for your new book. And I can't wait to dive into, oh, what are we calling our show today? What's a great title for it? We didn't talk about this. Probably something like How to Lead Your Own Joyful Rebellion.

I love it. Yes, let's do that.

Joy. We're talking about joy and we're talking about de-stressing and all the things that lead to joy. All right, let me tell you about Amy. It's an illustrious bio, but I want you to hear it, and then we're diving into her amazing new book. Okay, Amy Leniker, former C-suite executive and leadership advisor to Fortune 100 companies, Costco, Microsoft, et cetera. She is the author of the upcoming book, Cheers to Monday, which is a very rare thing that we are not saying, I think. Surprisingly simple method to lead and live with less stress and And More Joy, which has just come out March 24th, coming out when this show airs, and the host of the podcast Less Stress More Joy with Amy Lineker. Amy is an optimistic, joy-seeking, recovering workaholic. She's also a leadership consultant and has helped over 100,000 leaders— holy crap— and teams, including those at Fortune 100 companies, lead with less stress and more joy. Her sole goal— don't I love that— to help 1 billion people do the same. With over 25 years of leadership experience, including a decade in the C-suite, Amy understands the soul-crushing toil of burnout because she's lived it twice. And I'm not going to read the rest of the bio, but it'll be in the show notes because we're going to be talking about why you why this book, why it's more than just kind of an esoteric topic for you. So if— thank you again for being here— if we could do that, could you, could you frame it for us why this is so important to you and why you lived what it is not to have this and how it changed your life? Could we start there?

Yes. And thank you so much for having me. I am thrilled to get to be in conversation with you. So for me, I burnt out in a terrible, horrible, devastating way. And I thought, well, surely if you do that once, it doesn't happen again. You can't possibly do that again. But it did. And so after the second time, I think is when the light bulb finally went off for me, where I had to say, what is this pattern that's allowing this to happen again? And how do I make sure and shut it down so that this isn't just my cycle? For the rest of my life.

And how can I ask you how much time was between those two?

It was about a 6-year gap between the two.

So you're like, here we go again, this can't be happening.

Yes. And so my hope was to start a conversation so no one has to go through that. How do we live in ways that we don't have to go through the soul-sucking experience of burnout?

And, oh, there's so many questions. You're gonna be exhausted after this interview. I'm always interested in how people have grown and emerged from their childhood on, and I'm interested in when you decided, okay, this cannot continue. Did you already— because you were doing leadership coaching and training and all of that, right? So you were in the fabric of people's lives who were leading others, who were under the thumb of others. And it wasn't going well. You saw the whole thing. I'm just interested, did you have a framework emerging about, if I were to write this book now, or if I were to journal about it, I think I understand a little bit what's going on, or was it the process of the book that led you to this gorgeous framework?

I wish I could say it happened overnight, but it didn't. It was the two rounds of burnout and then the years of research that I spent talking to leaders and teams and running focus groups and doing a national study on stress and joy, that's when all the pieces started to come together. It really took that much— there were all of these different pieces of the puzzle and it took all of them coming together in order for that framework to emerge.

And to me, that's what legitimizes this. There's a lot of people talking about a lot of things and not to cast dispersion, but you know, I'm one that also believes in data and research. Yes, we can Certainly share our lived experience and our gut feelings and our observations, but those can be very limited and biased. So I love to hear this. So can you start with— I know you have— there are so many notes I took about self-awareness and training that's required, that we're supposed to step into and to know all this, and we don't, right? Um, there's so much I'm going to get to, but If you could say the one thing you think from your research the vast majority of people do not understand about joy and about stress, what would— I know we didn't, I didn't prep you for this, I'm going way off, off track here— what would you say those are?

Yeah, we're not off track at all. I could do this all day long if you want me. Great. So to me, the biggest aha from the research is that stress and joy are not opposites. I assumed that they were. Doesn't feeling stressful seem the opposite of feeling joyful? And so I had this either/or in my mind. And as a leader, I was leading small teams, I led big divisions. So anytime I was in a time of stress, I thought, well, joy needs to come later. If we can get through this stressful period, then the joy will come. And the research shows the exact opposite, that joy is a buffer for stress. Joy is a resilience against stress. Joy is not the award we get at the end. Joy is what's gonna help us get through. And that, once I understood that, my ability to support leaders and teams fundamentally changed.

Do you focus mostly on this now, this whole topic that, wow, and how do people— I do. I talk to a lot of people in positive psychology and, At first, do they bristle a little bit? Like, I don't want to be talking about joy. I want to be talking about the bottom line, which is not joyful. Do they bristle and push back?

Some people do. So here's what's really fun though, is that joy has a direct impact on the bottom line. So if you want to talk about your bottom line, you want to talk about your KPIs, you want to talk about your retention rate, let's do it. And we're going to do it through the lens of joy because Kathy, we just did a national study. It just wrapped last month. This is brand new data from my team and I. And here's what we found. 79% of working Americans say that they need joy in order to do their best work. 79%. For executives, that number jumps to 89. 89%. So right now, a working— a snapshot of working America, executives, 89% say, I need joy. In order to do my job well. So being able to have this new and current data allows me to talk to executives in a new way because I can say, well, maybe you don't need joy, but 89% of your colleagues probably do. And now we can have a different conversation.

You know, not to jump to my stuff, but my book that came out 2020, The Most Powerful You, 7 damaging power gaps. Crazily, so about 2,000 people now have been interviewed. 78% of women have at least one of these gaps.

Oh, I—

and no, no, no, that's not right. 98% of women and 90% of men have at least one of these gaps. 75% have 3 or more of these power and confidence gaps. And isn't that interesting that those numbers are somewhat similar? And I've found that if you have 3 or more of these gaps at the same time, you're not going to be able to thrive. It's just not going to be able because the confidence is there, is not there. The empowerment, the self-trust, they're so correlated, these, these. All right.

So this is so important because I think even when you frame it that way, it allows me to not think I'm the problem. It, it allows me to say, well, let's talk about these gaps, which is much different than trying to say, what's wrong with me? Why am I not doing what I need to do? So thank you for the work that you do. It matters so much.

Well, thank you so much, dear. All right, so tell us, when you're— I'm, I'm fascinated. No, I have to go back. I have to go back a little bit.

Okay.

You know, you call it a soul mission, which really Speaks to me because we don't tend to use the word soul or spiritual, or, you know, it gets people quite nervous. What do you mean by soul? I don't even believe in a soul. Um, can I just ask you, because as we were talking before, you know, corporate VP, then marriage and family therapist, then coaching and training and speaking, but I have to say, uh, the marriage and family therapy training, and it's about systems and, um how your system shapes you so much. And you talk about that, how emotions are spread and shared. But in, in becoming a therapist, I saw so much of— I really do believe this— we are our child, we are what our childhood taught us to be unless we've unlearned it. And that can be wonderful. That can be— we have to let go of trauma, can be a million things. Can I just ask, because I love to ask my guests, From your childhood, may I ask, can you see clearly the, the contributing factors to— I've got to produce, I've got maybe a perfectionistic over-functioner, maybe?

Absolutely. So I think about that. Yes. So I grew up in a house with a lot of love and very little money, and it was always there. Every single day I felt loved. Every single day I was aware that there wasn't enough money. And so really quickly, I think I internalized I realized that this isn't going to be the way I want to move through the world. I don't want to run through the world with, with the fear of money, always feeling like it's about to bring us down. And my dad, my mom, everyone worked hard and they never complained. To this day, Kathy, I can't— I'm telling you this, I'm not being hyperbolic. I have never heard my dad complain one time about working hard. And he should. The kinds of jobs he's had, the hours he's had, he should have complained all day, every day. I've never heard it. And so as I got older and went in a different career path, I'm the first person in my family to go to college, first person to go to graduate school. I come from a long line of really smart, hardworking people that college just wasn't in the cards for them. And so my career options were different. My access to careers was different. And what I found is that even when I was on the brink of burnout, feeling stress beyond anything I could have ever imagined, I still thought, I am so lucky. I am so lucky to be in a climate-controlled office because I'm not outside in the snow. I'm not standing on a factory line in a turkey processing plant. So I had this whole story in my head that just because my life looked different, that my stress wasn't as important or it didn't matter in the same way.

As your parents stressed, you mean? Yes.

So looking back—

Like, be grateful.

Oh, and I was.

Snap out of it.

Yes. And even in the moments of stress, I would say, come on, Lenneker, like, be grateful. This is a great life you have. Yes. And the stress was crushing. So a huge part of the work I do now is helping leaders uncover their stress story. What is your stress story? Where did it come from? Is it serving you? Or is it something that you need to say, I'm going to write a new one. I'm going to write a new story about what stress really means to me.

So happy to hear you say that. Yeah. I feel that if we don't do that, it's Band-Aids. Yeah. It's like a garden, you know? Right. You have to pick the weeds from the root. Oh my gosh. I love it. Just one more question on this, if I could. Was the feeling, you know, be grateful, you— and I'm interested in how you accessed all these resources to, you know, get an education. But was part of what perpetuated the stress that I never want to have those financial challenges, so I have to be the best of the best? Is that what was going on as well?

It was a huge part of it. And here's the part that I find really sad, um, because even when I went out and started my own company and we scaled quickly, we were 7 figures by year 2, phenomenal success, the fear didn't go away at all. I would still lie awake at night feeling like I was in this tremendous state of financial fear, which wasn't accurate. So it wasn't a spreadsheet issue. The spreadsheet was clear. It was, and you know, as a therapist, it was, it was the work that I had to do in internally to say, this isn't about a spreadsheet. This is about a story I've told myself, and I've got to figure out a new way. I've got to figure out how I'm going to release that fear so that I can fully live my life.

Oh, what an inspiration, Amy. So tell us, let's jump into how you help people do this. You have frameworks, you have a beautiful framework. ABC is one of them, right? But Do you start with helping them identify that stress story and go deep? Can you talk us through so listeners can say, I'm ready, okay, I gotta do the stress story?

Yeah, so I think it's the thing my clients love most about me and they hate most about me is that I am insatiably curious. I want to know everything. I don't come into an organization, say, here's a framework, let's get started. I want to come in and understand what's real for you, what's happening here. So That's the first thing I do is just really try to get a pulse check of where is the team, where are things going, and then helping them to identify the gap. So if this is where we are, if this is where you want to be, how are we going to close that gap? And so far, I haven't yet had a team that didn't have a gap.

Do you meet with them as a collective whole to hear what they feel the team's gap is, or they start talking about themselves?

I do both. So I tend to also do one-on-one interviews because very often it's hard to share your truth in front of your leader. And so the one-on-one interviews is often where I glean what's most important for me. And it's not uncommon at all for it to be in direct opposition to what the leader believes. So an executive might bring me in and say, you know, Amy, we're in a good, we're in good shape, but I've heard good things about you. Come and take our good team and just make us great. And then I start doing the one-on-one interviews and I hear something very, very different. That folks are—

Are they usually saying no, that's not a cohesive team, or that leader is terrible, or there's division and bifurcation. So they're talking about themselves, but they're also talking about how they feel in the team.

Yeah, exactly.

That's very rare to walk in without a framework, Amy, isn't it?

I hope so. I mean, when I was in, when I was on the other side hiring consultants, those were the ones I wanted. I wanted consultants that didn't come in with the answer. I wanted folks who came in willing to ask the question. And that's what's most important to me.

How wonderful. So I think we started with the question, are you asking them what is their stress story? Or you're not getting right to the stress, you're getting to what's working and what isn't, I'm guessing. Tell, tell us, tell us how you do this.

I do. I start with some appreciative inquiry because I think there's so much that we can learn from what's going well, and particularly with high-performing teams who are always chasing the next thing, they don't always pause to celebrate what's really working, what is really going well. So we absolutely look at that. And what's so interesting to me and in my research is that it's not just individuals that have stress stories. Teams have them and entire organizations have them. And so you'll often feel, you'll see this disconnect where a leader's stress story doesn't match up with what the organization believes stress is or should be. And now we've got this tension that we've got to figure out where is that coming from and how are we going to move through that? What does it look like?

Give an example for us, dimensionalize and take us where we need to go. But I think if people had an example, they would see it probably right now.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So there are some organizations, more than I would like to believe, but there are, there are many organizations where stress stress is a badge of honor. Stress means you're committed. And if you're anxious, that means you're passionate. And we've completely— I think we've missed the boat on that, where we've actually rewarded it. We reward behaviors that cause burnout. We reward behaviors that cause stress.

Which is working all weekend, which is not seeing your family, which is what else?

Saying yes to everything, right?

Micromanaging, maybe even. Exactly.

And so if you have a leader who their stress story is different, it's going to be hard for them to be successful on that team, and it's going to be hard for them to reconcile, here's what I believe healthy stress is, here's what that should look like, if you're in an environment that's rewarding the exact opposite thing.

Yeah, I see. And, and Is there a secret sauce that you have that I'm really interested— I could keep you for hours. I'm learning so much, and I hope this is helpful for listeners. Yeah, because they could bring you in, and they should engage in some of these behaviors and discussions, you know, on their own, but carefully. Um, maybe this is that therapeutic lens, or the fact that I've had to overcome so much, and it was deep work. It's not just writing in your journal. It's deep work. Not to scare anyone, but when you see that there's a disconnect, that the leader believes— doesn't even see that it's stressful to be working 24/7, or, you know, yes, you had 7 trips in 3 days— knowing that they have their own internal reason they're behaving that way Do you have a few strategies we can take away that, you know, you're not doing therapy in these sessions, nor do I when I'm coaching executives. How do you help people see you think it's working, but it's not working?

Yeah, I love—

probably not even working for you. It ain't working for the team. But I'd love to hear your thoughts here.

Yeah, exactly. There are two things that come to mind. So the first one is that I really believe in strong support systems. And the most successful leaders that I work with have a coach, they have a therapist, they have a group of peers, and sometimes all three. The, the very best leaders know that we are not meant to do this alone. And so when I go into a space, I'm not worried about not being a therapist because I'm not, because I encourage them to do that. I encourage them to build that strong support system around them to do the work. And then in terms of what I can offer, that's where I bring in the Unstressing Method. The 3-step framework of here's how we can move from complete overwhelm to actually starting to get some relief using a really simple 3-step process to get us there.

And let's, let's have it. Can we, can we hear it?

Let's do it. And it's so simple. You're going to say this doesn't make sense, it's too simple. But here's why we have overcomplicated our response to stress. What I found in my research is that the majority of people say the ways we try to manage stress at work causes us more stress. Oh man, isn't that disheartening?

It's so, it's so misguided. But you know, instead of learning calculus in high school, maybe we could have learned this. We're not taught this, none of it.

No.

And so many books and, and, and meditation apps, yes, aren't really, aren't really getting at it. Not that I'm not a fan of meditation, I am. Tell us, tell us The Unstressing Method? Sure.

So step number 1, we start with by seeing it. We have to see our stress differently. So I encourage leaders and teams, we take a full stress inventory. We get everything out of their heads, everything out of their hearts, everything on paper. What is contributing to the stress on this team right now? Then in step 2, we sort it. Most people think of work stress as just, that's just work stress. There are 5 distinct kinds of work stress, and if you don't understand that, your chances of applying the right solution are pretty small. So I teach you how to sort it into these 5 actual—

can we hear the 5?

Oh yeah, let's do it. So the first type is schedule. Too much to do, not enough time. Your workload is just overwhelming. Your second one is suspense. You're waiting on an answer, you're stuck in ambiguity, you're not sure what's happening next, so you're anticipating something that's causing stress. The third one is social, the stress of people. The people around you are making it harder to do your job than make it easier. The fourth one is sudden. Sudden stress, Kathy, is when something comes out of the blue. You have to put out this fire, or you thought you were going to spend your day doing this thing and now your boss said you've got to run off and do this other thing. So sudden stress is that unexpected urgent drive of to respond. And the fifth and final one is system, when the very work system that you're in is making it harder to be successful. Things like inequality, or you've got a system that's unfair, You've got a system that's disrespectful. When the system that you're in is preventing you from being successful, those are the 5. And so in that solving step is when we're going through and we're sorting it into those 5 buckets.

I just have to say, I know a framework is incredibly good when every aspect of it a person is saying, oh, Wow. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, who hasn't had all of these at the same time?

Yes.

Which is— you're about to deconstruct, you know, and explode. But every one of these words, it, you know, a lot of people stuff frameworks into words that— no, that doesn't quite— because we're trying to make them all S's or whatever. Every one of these is right. Every one of these is happening. And in looking at them, Mhm. It looks to me like every one of these could be exacerbated by what's happening today.

Absolutely.

Meaning dramatic change, shifting tides.

Yes.

Sudden— we're waiting for something, we're waiting for the other shoe. I mean, this is today.

It is today. Our, our study that just wrapped in 2026, so the data is current, had over 80% say not only that I feel all 5 of these, they feel them at least once a week or more. So you're spot on that what we are feeling in the world is absolutely impacting how we're feeling at work. It would be impossible for it not to. So I think you're spot on.

You're spot on, my dear. All right. Help us. And we're going to talk about not all stress is harmful. We're going to talk about how to differentiate. Well, let's go there. But then Maybe you can give us, if you feel this is the most important, really, I want you to share, you know, I'm so glad we talked about these 5 things because this is the heart of the book. But can we start with, hang on here, not all stress is what you need to, you know, remove, eradicate, alleviate. Can you help us know the difference?

We sure can. Can I tell you the 3rd step of the process though? Because I only told you 2. Oh yeah, absolutely. Oh yes, I forgot the third one. Oh my goodness, step 1, we see it differently. Step 2, we sort it. And then step 3 is we solve it. So there's a really simple matrix, and wherever your stressor lands on that matrix, there's a next thing for you to do. So it takes out the overthinking, it takes out the analysis paralysis, and it says, here's what I can do, here's a guiding action. So I wanted to make sure that I closed out the framework for folks who were like, did she tell me number 3?

How do I— hey, how do I—

what do I do?

And we'll go to some, some, uh, solving. We'll tackle a few of those. But yes, tell us, how do we differentiate stress that is motivating and positive?

There is one really easy way to tell, and once you see it, you can't unsee it because it's just that clear. So the difference between good stress, not good stress, which is called eustress or distress— those are the names for it— is, is it enhancing your performance? Is it helping you perform? If the answer is yes, we might be in eustress. So I'm able to meet a deadline, or I'm training for a half marathon. It's actually helping me perform. I'm doing, I'm doing more of what I want to do. Distress is the opposite. Distress is when you're feeling a level of stress that Now you're not thinking as clearly. You're starting to make more mistakes at work, or you're starting to get into conflict with people, and you don't typically get into conflict at work. Now you're seeing your performance go down. And once you see that differentiator, once you see, is this helping me? Is this not? It's as clear as could be.

All right, I need to obfuscate it and make it confusing. Can I keep you a few more minutes? I'm guessing people will say, But wait a minute, there have been periods of time where that stress got me to the end point, but then I fell apart.

Yeah.

So is it possible that even though it's motivating us, and yes, there might be some of those symptoms of distress, it got me to what— selling a house, for instance, that's about as stressful as you can get. Yes, a lot of things. Um, How do we know that, okay, this is actually helping me move forward and it isn't too destructive? But when I stopped, I fell apart, so clearly I don't want to repeat that. Does that make sense?

It does make sense, and I think it's about redefining what success is. So if your only success metric is, am I performing at work, then you may be— and this was me— I performed at work at a level that was promotion after promotion after promotion while tearing myself down, while burning myself out. So it's— we've got to think about success not just as work, it's success in my life. It's why I always say to leaders that stress isn't the price of success, it's the thief that steals it. Because even if you're successful, you just got the new promotion, if you're unhappy, if your life is falling apart, that doesn't feel like success for you. And so it's that whole mindset shift. And I love the example you gave of the house because it's such a common one. So here's the difference with, with selling a house. You sell a house, it gets stressful, it takes however long it takes, and then you move through it. We're actually wired for that as humans. We're wired for that kind of stress. Bring on something short-term, we know there's a gain, I can get through it. Where we get in trouble is when it becomes chronic. So it's not— you're selling a house, now it's been 2 months, and now it's 5 months, and now it's 8 months. Now we're in the, the pattern that we're not meant to be in. Humans are not meant to be in chronic stress. So I love your example of the house because that really hits it home.

Oh, you're so clear on all of it. I mean, aren't we making— isn't this making so much sense? All right, now I only have about 10 more minutes with you.

Oh, this is flying by. I love talking to you. I love talking to you.

I already feel less stressed. Okay, so do you think that talking about a few solving processes works, or is that jumping over the C in the SORT and we shouldn't do that?

Let's do it. I'm all about step 3. I just did this, um, I did a workshop yesterday on the framework for 100 city leaders. It was such an incredible group of people. And we got to step 3, I was like, this is the step that lights me up. And one of the leaders was like, you seem like you've been lit up this whole time. That's true.

Sweet. Well, you are. That's who you are. Your soul is being bolstered by this. Oh my goodness, exactly. Your soul's joy. All right, let's start sorting— no, solving. What do we do?

Yes. Let's do it. So for folks who are listening and not watching us, I would just encourage them to draw out a matrix. Just draw a quick cross. So you've got 4 quadrants and your 2 axes are, is this important to me? And your other axes is, do I have control? Those are your 2 questions. And when you're asking yourself whether or not it's important to you, it means right now. Is this stressor important to me With my role, with my responsibilities in this organization at this time, is it important?

This thing that I feel is generating stress.

Yes, distress.

Let me interrupt one minute. Do you feel that most people can assess what it is that is stressing them out most? In my work, even coaching, it's a, it's a maelstrom.

It depends. Some leaders can do it really quickly and just jot down other, you know, just scribbling stressor after stressor, and others, it takes some coaching questions. So I'll say things like, what wakes you up at night? What's the problem you can't seem to solve? So I give them some coaching questions to help them uncover what those stressors are.

Thank you for that.

So here's the fun part, because now once you know the answer to those two questions, right, is it important, can I control it, you map it on your matrix.

Okay.

And there's a step for each of those 4 quadrants. Do you want to go through all 4?

Please, let's do it. I think we have time. If you don't mind. Okay.

I live for this stuff. Uh, so let's, let's start with the bottom left. So we're gonna, we're gonna start with the easier one and warm our way up. So the bottom left quadrant is when you say the stressor isn't important to me and I don't have control. That's the bottom left quadrant.

Okay.

In that case, what you do is you acknowledge it and you move on.

Yeah, you acknowledge it and it's not really that important to me.

Because here's the thing, Kathy, when I first built the framework, I didn't have action steps for the not important stressors. My thinking at the time was, if it's not important, why would we spend time? Why would we spend energy on it? But what was happening in the workshops and the coaching sessions, people would come back and say, I— the stressor wasn't important, but I'm still thinking about it. Why is that? So I went back into the research and discovered just how hard open loops are on our brain. And you know this with the work that you do. Our brain despises open loops. It needs closure. So actually saying, this was causing me stress. I've decided it's not important right now. I've decided I can't control it. I'm acknowledging it and I'm moving on.

That gives your brain the closure. I love it. And I'm guessing that might have to be repeated many times. Like, there it is, it popped in, but then you say, okay, I'm breathing. I did say this wasn't important, didn't I?

Exactly. That's exactly right.

Let it go and let me have a strategy. It's 3 deep breaths, whatever. Okay, love it.

Exactly. So if we move one quadrant over, now these are the stressors that that are not important to us, but we do have control. And there are going to be some stressors like that— not important, but you've got control over it.

Okay.

In that instance, it's accepting it without fixing it. Accept it without fixing it, even though you have control to fix it. You've got control, but it's not important to you.

Oh, it's not important. Don't focus on it.

Let it go. I don't know if you've done this. I have spent 8 hours building PowerPoints that no one looks at. Spend time fixing things to no end. That's this quadrant, and it's the quadrant of productivity because you can fix a lot of things and feel really productive, but at the end of the day, these are not important things. Your time is better spent in other quadrants.

This is amazing, Amy.

I love you for saying that. Okay, so I know we're— I want to make sure I don't run out of time. So if we go to the top left, these are the stressors that you say This is important to me, but I don't have control. Then it's about asking for help. And one of two things is going to happen. First, there is going to be someone who can help you. I've got a deadline, I can't move it, but Kathy can. Or I'm on a hiring freeze, I can't fix it, but HR can. So category one, there is someone that you can go to for help. Category two there isn't anyone that can help you. I'm working with the team and they just lost a lovely— a team member they cared about so much unexpectedly. There isn't anyone that can help with that. Then the question is, what help do we need to move forward? How do we support each other? How do we make sure we're caring for ourselves in this time of grief? So if it's important to you but you don't have control, Then we ask. We ask for what we need.

Beautiful.

Now here's the really fun one. You ready?

They're all pretty fun. The final one.

Okay, so the final one is it is important to you. You've got some control. So this is where we act. This is where you spend your time. This is where you spend your energy. And I like to say this is where you do the next right thing. And some leaders and teams will say, I don't have time to take action. But you do because you freed up time from these other ones. Quadrants. Exactly. So that becomes— it's not even a flashlight, Kathy, it's a spotlight. Quadrant 2 becomes the spotlight, is this is where we're going to focus as a team. This is where we're going to harness our resources and come together.

Amy, who can't use this? I mean, I feel family systems need this.

Oh yes.

Organizational systems. Who doesn't need this? Individuals.

Can I share a funny story about that?

Please do.

I got to do this with the group of park rangers. The most— oh my gosh, they were just the most incredibly interesting group ever. So I ran into one of them a few months later and I said, okay, you got to tell me, how are things going? I need to know. How's work? And he said, you know, work is about the same. But my wife has never been happier. And I'll tell you, Kathy, that was the single greatest piece of feedback I've gotten in 20 years as a facilitator. Oh my gosh, my job is done.

And you, you have supported something I've said a thousand years. It feels like we're a person when we show up to our professional life. Anybody who's thinking they're they're bifurcated, they're separate, is not getting it.

Exactly.

It all bleeds. Oh, Amy, I mean, honestly, don't— don't y'all feel like you can use this today, right? Just that, right away. I could keep you forever. You need to come back again, please. But in the meantime, where do we soak up all this? Where do we get your book? Where do we learn more? Where do you— you done so many talks, hundreds. But where do we soak it all up, Amy? Where do we—

thank you for asking. Amyleniker.com. And the book is available, your favorite, wherever you like to buy your books, it's available. Wow.

And is there a workbook? I should know the answer to this before throwing it out.

There is. I use it for clients, so the workbook isn't available right now outside of an engagement. But yes, there is a full half-day certification training, me, y'all. Yeah.

Okay, let us know where we learn more about this. Amy, it's, it is a soul, it's soul work.

Yeah.

Because the thing I get most of all from it, it's, I mean, I don't mean to make people roll their eyes, but it's loving, it's compassionate, there's no shame. It's, it's helping people see how common these things are and, and how human they are and how that we really usually have no training or understanding about how to sort through this and solve it. It's beautiful.

I wish you're in the same room. I would hug you because— ah, me too! I'm coming, coming to Seattle. On the matrix, there's a heart in the center of the matrix, and it's not there just because it's cute, though it is cute. It's there to represent compassion. So you nailed it, because if you try to do this process with shame, if you try to blame your team about their stress You've gone against the entire spirit of it. So you're so right. It's, it's grounded in compassion. That's the only way that we have less stress and more joy. It's the only way.

I mean, that's how I know what an amazing change agent you are, because I learned it the hard way in therapy. If you are judging the person in front of you, there is no way you can help them. None. It has to be— you have to find a way to love and connect what you're seeing, connect with. And that's what you're doing. Amy, thank you.

Oh, Kathy, thank you.

This book's going to be an instant bestseller, and we all need it. Thank you, dear, and stay well during this massive crush of, of what's going to be attention and media. And the book— the world needs your book now more than ever. Thank you so much. All right, people, you know I say this every time, broken record. If you don't have a question about this, about, wait a minute, I want to learn this, and I want— I, I'd be surprised because it's deep, it's complex, it's nuanced, it's beautiful, although very clear. If you have a question, wherever you see this— LinkedIn is my happy place, as you all know— but wherever you see this on social media or in the Finding Brave newsletter, I hope you sign up for that, you'll leave us a comment or question. And I know Amy's crashingly busy, but we'll both do our best to support you on your journey of more joy, less stress, and understanding that you don't— that joy does not come at the end of stress. We need to do some other things. So I hope you love it. Thank you everyone. Thank you for listening. Hope to hear from you and wishing you a beautiful Finding Brave 2 weeks coming up. And we will see you next time. Thanks so much for joining us today. And please don't forget to check out findingbrave.org for more programs, resources, and tips. And tune in next time for your weekly dose of Finding Grave.