Building a Culture of Motivation, Consistency, and Success with Brandon Bornancin

Foreign. Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host, Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders, where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster, and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset goals, time management, and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready, and let's dive into the good stuff. What up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host, Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And I hope you're buckled in. I. I hope you've got the fire retardant hat and suit on right now because this one might set the computer speakers on fire. Because I am beyond excited to be diving into a topic today that is near and dear to my heart with an individual that I've been connected with for over eight years now and have gotten to watch him rise to complete supremacy in his space. Because we're talking about culture today. Everyone's heard the cliche phrase, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Breakfast. But no one ever talks about the strategy to develop culture, right? Because you have to combine the two. You have to have culture, you have to have strategy. But to design it and build it takes intention, skill, and focus. And that is why I'm so, so excited to have Brandon Bornansen on the call with me today. CEO and founder at Seamless AI. If you haven't seen him on LinkedIn, you haven't been paying attention. But. But what I believe he has done so well is not just scale a company, but scale a culture. And we are going to dive in today on how exactly to do that. Brandon, my man, welcome to the show.

Wow, Kevin, thank you so much. I'm so grateful and humbled to be here. And I've had an amazing time learning from you following your amazing journey in the SaaS space as a sales executor, sales leader. And a lot of tips that I learned, I learned from you as well on leadership and execution. So it's an honor to be here today.

This. This is gonna be great, man. I already know, like, and just so anyone listening, there was already like eight minutes of us riffing before this started on content around here. So let's dive into culture, man, because it's something that you know It's a buzzword. Like, oh, culture, culture. We have a culture, but very few people are intentional about it. So let's start with just defining it. What does culture mean to you? Like, like, when you think about building a culture, what does culture mean?

Culture to us and me and the leadership team from the top down, everything in between is like, what are your principles? What are you doing? What do you do? Why do you do it? And I, you know what was interesting is there's so many fake people out there. There's fake leaders, there's fake. There's certainly enough fake gurus. We know that for a fact. If you go on LinkedIn or on Facebook, you'll see all these fake gurus in their jets and their. And their cars and their Rolls Royces and their airplanes and all this jazz, right? You've got the fake gurus, you've got the fake leaders. One, one great example. And no hate, no shade. Like, you've got the better.com CEO. I love you guys. Your family to me. And then the next month or whatever, jumps on Zoom Video and debauches, laying off a thousand people, then gets fired from his growth equity firm, you know, like, so. So I think that's, that's like fake culture, right? Real culture to us is, what is your mission? What is your values? What are your principles? And it's not just something you write on a poster that you hang up and you tell everyone, that's our core values. Like, I basically decided at a very early time to say, hey, I'm going to actually write a book on our core values, on our culture, and, and wrote whatever it takes to embody our core values, our culture. Because this was during COVID Thank you, by the way. I love it. Katie's got the books up there. Yes. And by the way, anyone tuning in sales secrets, Kevin Dorsey is the first chapter, one of the best interviews I've ever had. Kevin Dorsey, first chapter in the book. Man earned it. And culture is like, like, that's culture, right? To even have the energy and the mental capacity to say, I'm trying to run a company. I'm trying to build a billion dollar software. I'm going to take the time to write a book about culture, so, so that all of our employees embody culture. That's what culture is. It's like doing whatever it takes to serve your people at the highest level to maximize their success, no matter what you want. And that's just kind of how we operate. Like, I wake up every day, I don't see quotas like, it's funny. People will be like, oh well, what's your reps quotas? I'm like, I, I used to know that like three years ago, five years ago. I don't know. It's X amount in mrr. I know our annual goal. We're going for a hundred million IPO. 100 million ARR. IPO. But like, I look at people and the only thing I think about every single day, and this is, this is how our culture is built. There are four pillars to your life. Professional, personal health and wealth. Every day I wake up and I inspire our leaders and I inspire our individual contributors to help each other maximize their professional success, their personal success, their health and their wealth. Like, to build an empire, you need these four pillars. To go from broke to financially free, you need these four pillars. And if one of these pillars starts to crumble, you've got a house that's built with four pillars. If one of those pillars falls down, guess what? The house collapses and, and the empire is destroyed from within. So for us, it's like figuring out what can we do to maximize everyone's potential, professionally, personally, health, wealth. And if we're constantly improving you to improve those levels in your life and those areas of your life and the principles and the habits and the mindset and the skills and the processes and the strategies and the secrets, then we've built an amazing culture.

And so there's so much we can unpack there. Did you have you read the book what yout Do Is who youo Are by Horowitz yet?

I have not.

You will love that book. Won plenty of Jay Z references in that book. He's who wrote hard things about hard things, but it talks about culture. It's the best book I've read on culture. And one of the things he talks about that goes against common recommendations is what she just talked about is the culture is the same decided by the leadership. The leader decides the culture of the org and the team. And what he calls out is how important that is. Because when you do culture by committee, right, you hire a culture consultant and then you poll everybody on what the value should be. And you do all these things, you get a watered down version that no one can identify with. Whereas when it is set at the top, it also ensures that the top lives it. And I can guarantee anybody listening right now, you can hear it in his voice. He lives this. And that's the key to the culture. Right, well, let's keep going.

Yeah, that's interesting. I totally agree. And like the core. So the core values. This was really hard for me, right, because I came from selling for IBM and Google, and I've been on the 90 different culture committee meetings. In the meetings about the meetings about the culture and what it's going to be. And we would literally, like, have hundreds of people write on sticky notes what we thought the culture should be and what do we want the culture to be, and what do we want the values to be? And. And like, I just remember it was really weird. You've just got a bunch of people writing a bunch of shit down and there's. There's no concise strategy. So the way that I came up with the mission and vision and the core values was I just literally wrote it out. I was like, why am I, why am I going to give up making millions, having eight to 15 hours a day off of my job? Why am I going to work 18 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 for 10 years straight or more? I was like, you got to have a big mission and vision. So I'm like, okay, we built Seamless to help the world connect opportunity. Okay, why do we do that? Because we want to positively impact billions of people and transform, revolutionize an entire industry to change people's lives forever for the better. Boom. That's the mission. On a mission to help the world connect opportunity and positively impact billions. And then the vision is to maximize. Like, okay, so then you break down the layer. After I wrote that down, it's like, what's, what's your vision? Then it's, okay, well, I want to. I want to maximize the potential of every professional globally. Like, I don't care what you do or how you do it. My goal is to help you improve 1% a day. To maximize your potential. You improve 1% a day by the end of the year, that's 37x. That means if you make $100,000 a year, you multiply that by 37. Now you're making 3.7 million. Let's say if you're not in sales or an entrepreneur and you can't increase your income, well, what if I provide you with the secrets to realize, like, oh, I'm not investing in my 401k. Well, if you do that, then you avoid 40% taxes. Then if you do that every day with a certain amount, you could then get to a million dollars in your savings or, you know, how to improve your health so that you don't die. You know, if I could help you save 10 years or 20 years, or 30 years or 50 years of your life. Like, that's how I envision our. Our vision to maximize the potential of every professional globally. And then the core values I just wrote down, like, what are my success secrets that I've learned from everyone I know? And I just jotted them down. Like, I jotted them down. We have. We have eight different success secrets. Try to pull it up, B. Rock my video guy. Pull up all the success secrets. And I've got so many different operating principles and core values that I live by. Like, there's a hundred of them, but we took the top eight that I live by that are applicable to everyone at our company. You know, like, action over inaction. Go big or go bigger. Do whatever it takes. Like, we've got it on our website. Every company meeting, every month, I go over our mission, our vision, our core values. My video guy's gonna bring it up just so I can read it to.

You, and I'll jump in as you pull that up. Because where this transition well into is, first of all, your culture has to be defined. It has to be documented. But one of the ways it describes culture in the book as well is cultures are behaviors. And how a lot of companies do their values, their beliefs, they're not behaviors, they're beliefs. And there's a gap there, right? One of Enron's core values was integrity and communication and excellence. And anyone listening right now, I bet you have some core values that sound very similar. There's something around integrity, there's something around the customer, there's something around, you know, innovation. But they're not behaviors. You have to define it. But then what you were just starting to get into is how do you reinforce it? Right? And so I want to go down this path. So do you have them pulled up to. To.

Yeah, and I agree with that. Right. Like. Like, Katie. Well, you just went over those. Those three, right? To the people listening or watching this, did you even know what that meant? Like, what the fuck does that even mean? You know, like, if core values, people can't listen to them and understand, like, at the core, what does that mean?

And.

And why I should exude it to change the world with my products and services that I represent at the company I work for, then we've got a problem. So, like, our. Our core values, we've got 8 to 12. I'll read them real quick if that works for you, Katie.

Yeah, let's do it.

Okay, so number one, whatever it takes. Pretty simple. Do whatever it takes to serve our customers and Our employees at the highest levels. Everything else great will follow. If you do whatever it takes to maximize the success of your customers, of your employees, you will win. Give to get. It's like no brainer. The next one. The whole is greater than. Than the self, dude. Cultures are destroyed from toxic, unkind people, People that are not kind to others, that think they're better than other people, that treat people poorly, that scare people at work and create fear. So whole greater than self is all about. There is no I in the team. We win together and we lose together as a team. The third one is think bigger. Take all of your dreams, all of your ideas, and all of your goals and aspirations and think bigger. Then develop the action plan to make them a reality. And I learned this because I used to set average goals. And then a few of my mentors were like, these billionaires were setting goal. They would have the reality of like, okay, let's just use this for quota setting, right? Because we're talking to salespeople. They're like, okay, my. My VP of sales gave me a quote of a million dollars. Okay? That's my goal. I will do that. Well, when I was selling and I had a quota of 10 million, I'm like, I'm gonna do 30 million. Like, just crazy. I'm gonna 3 exit. I'm gonna 5 exit it. It was actually, for me, throughout my whole career, I would always 3x and 5x the quota and then reverse engineer the activity to hit the 5x quota. And I would never make the 5x. But guess what? I would always make the 3 to 4x. And I'd always get pissed because I'm like, why is it every year I can never hit my 5x, but I could always hit the 3 or 4x? Like, one day I will beat myself and it's you versus you, and I gotta figure out how to get to the 5x. But that's what that one's all about. Um, the fourth one is challenge everything. And this doesn't mean, like, be a pain in the ass to leadership, Be a pain in the ass to like your people because challenge everything. Like, I've actually had co workers, you know, who just like to just fight just to fight. And I'm like, guys, that's not productive here. When I say challenge everything, it means like, the, the 1% improvement, right? If you're waking up every day and you're, you're. You're generating the same results every day, what. What are you not doing that you could be doing to improve what Are you not thinking about changing or improving or optimizing that could set new records, that could create new paths? Uh, how can you, like, how can you achieve what you've never achieved before? Innovate and challenge everything. Every single day you have to be improving. The fifth one is take action per hour. Like, this is the most important, like one of the most important ones. Because a lot of people, you know, we, we work with, like, I don't know, it's like 400,000 to 500,000 sales teams on Seamless right now. And when I'm working with SDRs, AES, VPs, you know, they, they have these grand ideas and they have these amazing products and services they want that they need to get in the hands of the people that desperately need them. And they will change those people's lives forever for the better if they could just get in front of them. But the thing is, is they spend 90 days developing a strategy and then they want to execute that strategy over a year. It's like, guys, how do we develop the strategy in a day and then how do we execute that strategy tomorrow? And this is MVP1. And then after this week, we'll do MVP2. In week two, stop thinking and start doing. Take action. Paralysis by analysis doesn't accomplish anything for anyone. You got to take action. And I'm a big believer. I tell this to my leadership. They get scared a little bit, but like, it never hurts them. I say take action and ask for forgiveness from me. And guess what? If you ever fuck up, I will not be mad, right? I will actually be more upset that you didn't get the data and take the action to make a decision. To make our goals and dreams a reality for the customers and the users that we serve. And this happened to us recently. Let me give you an example. Like, we've got, oh my gosh, hundreds of thousands of transactions. I think it's like, I don't know, tens of thousands of transactions a day. Like payments going through seamless AI. One of the big things is like Stripe is not built for SaaS subscription management. 10,000 plus transactions a day. We're like, we have to get a SaaS subscription management software. So the OPS team, and this was before I brought in a VP and before I brought in a director of ops. But one of our OPS managers selected a high end subscription management software. Okay, well, fast forward six months to where we're at now. I've got a VP of ops, a director of ops. They're like, this is totally fucked. This is the wrong platform, it's missing 50% of the requirements that we need. We thought that it fulfilled our requirements six months ago, but this is the wrong platform. Brandon, we're so sorry. We can't believe we wasted all of your money and all the company's money and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, guys, it's okay. Like, you're trying to change a massive problem. Like, if I. If we cry over every single mistake that we make, we will never get to where we want to go. Like, I'm not even thinking about what we lost.

Right?

What would make me more upset is if we stayed with this wrong solution for five years and we create a ton of inefficient workflows and fixes that were patches to the hall and the holes with water coming through the walls. Like, fix. Where's the water coming from? Like, fix the problem at the core. So I'm like, guys, like, kill the deal with that. Those guys. And then they're like, we've got this way better platform. It solves 98% of our needs and we're ready to sign. It's gonna cost X. I might go. Go run. I think that's a take action. And that falls into our six core value, which is fine solutions. Like, there's opportunity. Oh, this is a little different. So take action, you guys. You. You get that, Dorsey, have you ever experienced that?

Oh, I mean, absolutely. And it funny you mentioned. This is my leaders. Most of the frustrations I ever had with my leadership team was not what they did wrong. It's what they did not do. I was like, like. And we would talk, I was like, yo, when is the last time you did something wrong? Like, literally, can you tell me the last time you did something wrong? Like, you actually made a mistake? You can't. And actually I say them often. Is like, I don't say no enough? Meaning you're not bringing me enough things to say no to.

Like, that's strong. What.

What are these batshit crazy ideas? What are the things that you want to try? Right, But I what our phrase was what's best and why not. I would never be upset with you if you did what you believed was best. And at least ask yourself the why not question. What's best? This software. Why not at least address the why not right? Because then if you thought it through and you believe this was the best and you had your why nots, cool, we're on to the next one. But it's the inaction I love that kills people. Whereas, like, taking the action you learn, you get things done. And truth, y' all listening. More often than not, you're probably going to be right. I literally. Oh, yeah, I want you to.

That's just.

When's the last time you actually made a mistake? Like, actually truly made a mistake of commission, not omission, meaning not like you didn't do something that you knew you should have. That is a mistake that you did the wrong thing. It's rare. It's way rarer than people think. And that's part of the problem.

And this is a mindset thing that. That Kevin's talking about. The. The action over inaction. Take action. Like, I. I always. Same thing. Like, tell the. The team and tell everyone. I coach and mentor. Take action over inaction. The whole world has trained you. No, like, as. As kids growing up, which is totally messed up. Like, I'm. Kevin Dorsey has kids and I don't. We were actually just recently talking about this this past week. So I'm saying this without any experience, but I do this with my dog. So Danielle always tells our dog, you can't do that. You can't do this. You can't do that. And I'm always telling Ella, our puppy, I was like, run faster. Run out the door. Kill the rabbit, dude. Like, do whatever you want to do, right? I was like, go harder when she's going crazy, attacking people in our. In our house. Because, like, the whole world, I'm just built to nep. To not let fear and not put constraints and limiting beliefs on other people. My mom, my dad, have always put limiting beliefs on me. You can't do this, you can't do that. Teachers have always told you, you can't do this, you can't do that. You've got bosses, co workers, friends, people in your network. When you are about to do something that they don't have the courage to do, don't have the intelligence to do, don't have the unlimited potential to do, they will start putting limiting beliefs on you to not take action. That's a bad idea. I wouldn't do that now. Why are you working so hard? Why are you writing that book? Why are you launching your sales software company when you're making all this money? Dude, my whole life, everyone's told me, don't take action, don't do it, don't go for it. And it's a limiting belief that if you can just. I'm a go all in on action, it will always work out. If it doesn't, like, it's a failed test, just Like a convert conversion on a website. You know, if you have you got an A B test, life should be an experiment that you run. And the decisions that you make just realize, like, okay, I could do A or B. If A doesn't work out, okay, now I've got the data to try B and then see what improves better A or B. And this is how digital marketers do it. Well, they'll take a landing page. We'll try version A. We'll try version B. If you start thinking like conversion rate optimization, and every decision that you make, everything that you shoot for is like a data point to get to the goal and improve, you're gonna win big.

And what I want people also to remember about virtues and values here is they're all intertwined, right? Cause Brennan's not talking about taking blind action. It's taking action with the premise of the other values of are you taking action that's aligned with thinking bigger? Are you taking action with whatever it takes? Are you thinking action of doing, like, what's right by our customers? The virtues guide each other. It's not about blob doing, like, what's right by our customers. The virtues guide each other. It's not about blind action. But if they're all working together, that's where it comes through. So we got six of them. You got two left for me. What are the last two?

Yes. And what was up there? Real quick. B rocks. So this is a big one. Find solutions. So this is something that I try to coach our team on a lot. Like, you got to be positive with everything, you know, quick story for everyone. So I pitched 300. I prospected thousands of venture capitalists and angel investors to fundraise cold outbound prospecting using seamless with the list, cold emailing with outreach IO, cold calling literally every angel investor in venture capital that you could find on LinkedIn, that you could find on Angellist. I built the list with Seamless, LinkedIn, Crunchbase. And I start cold call prospecting because I'm like, okay, to really build this search engine that finds everyone in the world and their contact info. Like, I need some money and I need a shitload of engineers. So I'm going and I'm pitching all these investors. And that what. What happened was I literally a week before demo day, we the venture capital firm, I went through an accelerator in Newark, New Jersey. Part of the accelerator accelerator was I had to live in downtown Newark, New Jersey, and I was pretty much in the ghetto with gunshots and people in my backyard, gangsters in my backyard, Newark, New Jersey. And no offense to Newark, New Jersey, because I'm Italian and there's tons of Italian people out there, and I love New Jersey. The whole state of New Jersey actually invested in Seamless. But long story short, so doing whatever it takes to get funding in New Jersey, and we're prepping for demo day, and I'm like, dude, this was my last year. Three years trying to build Seamless. We're out of money. Demo day goes bad. We're bankrupt. It's over. Game done. So the. The. The managing partner says for the last two weeks of demo day, no one's allowed to travel. No one's allowed to do anything. Last week, it was the fourth day leading up to demo day. We're on stage at the hockey rink. I don't even know what it's called. The Prudential Hockey Rink. I get a call. My Danielle calls me. She's like, yo, you gotta fly to LA asap. She's like, your. Your mom's on. On the deathbed. And, like, if you don't get out there, like, today or tomorrow, she's gone, and you're gonna regret it. I'm like. I was like, I got a demo day. I gotta go, though. So I called the managing director. I saw him. I'm like, dude, mom's about to die. I got a bowl. So I literally go fly there, see my mom for the last time, you know, get to say my piece. She couldn't talk or anything, but she was grabbing my hand and stuff, and it was amazing. And then literally flew back in 24 hours, and I'm on stage presenting to a thousand people like. Like, nothing ever happened. And I. This is an example of finding solutions, not problems. I could have sat there and weeped for a day, a week, a year, a decade, and said, woe is me. I'm a victim. Life is over. Like, Or I could look at the situation and appreciate and be grateful and. And realize all these different gifts. Like, dude, life is short. Leverage every second. Like, my mom passing and, you know, and she had Alzheimer's since I was 21 years old. Finding solutions, not problems, is like finding the answers and being grateful and happy that you're alive because there's a solution for everything as long as you're positive and you're looking for that opportunity. And I just leveraged so many learnings from the demo day and my mom passing with, like, appreciating life, being grateful for everything. And by the way, that made me go vegan. Whole food plant Powered. I changed my diet because I started researching Alzheimer's, cancer and diabetes. And like a lot of why people are sick is because of their, what they eat, right? Like if you're smoking cigarettes and you get lung cancer, you can't be like, oh, how do I cure lung cancer? Well, guess what? You know how you can cure heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's and diabetes? There's one thing and it's, and it's what you eat, you know, so I'm a big proponent of like what you eat to maximize your health. So I just learned all these things and finding solutions during problems, during tough times, good and bad, you name it. And that's, that's the other core value and then the others real quick. Just because I, you know, I know we've got a lot of them. Do the right thing. And I think this is a better way to say integrity. You know how you said Enron says integrity? 99 of people don't even know what the. That means straight up. I, I actually don't even know what the definition is of integrity.

Google it right now because I'm sure it's not Google the, the definition.

But our, our way of saying the same thing, I believe is do the right thing. Like no matter what you're doing, do the right thing. Like what you know is right and wrong. Don't do the thing that you believe is the wrong thing and do the right thing.

Yeah, well, it's funny because. So integrity, right? The quality of being honest and having strong moral principles. Because what's funny again, integrity is a belief. It's a characteristic. It's not a behavior. You do something with integrity. Whereas if you just believe in integrity, it doesn't mean anything you have to do with integrity. You have to go through it. And so we, we had our core virtues for our sales org and same idea. Ours were all behaviors. Take care of the person and salesperson. Seek perpetual growth. Own your shit. Help ytp. Help yourself team and prospect ecm. Every conversation matters. Plan and play to win. Celebrate the process. Those were ours, right? And we defined them. They were documented. We knew what good look, every single one of those had nine or ten examples of here's what it means to plan and play to win. Because that's also where a lot of companies go off with their values, their virtues, their cultures is they define it, but they don't document. Like what does it mean? Like, what are examples of doing the right thing?

Oh yeah, I love that. And that's what you showed me. You showed me in because Kevin Dorsey's been, we love talking about leadership strategies to maximize people's successes. One of the things that you did where I'm like, oh, great idea, is you had examples of all of the values and like, because people can hear one thing and it doesn't resonate, here's another, like, way to train culture, teach culture. I tell the same like, like thing that I'm trying to teach, but I, I share it with like 5 to 10 different ways, 5 to 10 different stories, 5 to 10 different examples. But it's the same thing, like, fail forward, don't quit, don't give up. Like, these are different operating principles. But I'll talk about different stories and themes and, and ways to do it because one way may resonate with someone and another way will resonate with someone else. And I love that how you had that laid out in the Google Doc, that's genius.

You have to. Because if you think about even something as simple as do the right thing, giving examples of what that means is important, right? So here's the situation. A customer calls in, they are still under contract. They want to cancel because budget's tightening up. What's the right thing? Right? As a company, you need to understand and define, like, what is in a situation like that, what is the right.

Thing now, different stories and, and ways to do it. Because one way may resonate with someone and another way will resonate with someone else. And I love that how you had that laid out in the Google Doc, that's genius.

You have to. Because if you think about even something as simple as do the right thing, giving examples of what that means is important, right? So here's the situation. A customer calls in, they're still under contract. Well, the right thing for the customer might be to cancel. The right thing for me is the rep. A lot of reps might go, well, I don't want to make them upset, so I'll let them cancel. The right thing for the company might to be able to keep them, but the right thing for the customer too is like, wait, wait, wait. You're tight. So you want to take away something that makes you money. So budgets are tight and you want to take away something that, like, what is the right thing? And defining that is very, very important throughout all this process. But where I want to go next, because this is really, really important. Companies don't even take it this far. But something you said earlier, they want to cancel because budget's tightening up. What's the right thing? Right? As a company, you need to understand and Define like what is in a situation like that, what is the right thing? What's important is you have to reinforce it. She said something like, you know, like.

This is the most important.

Okay, cool. Right. Because we've also, you've been there especially you were big companies where the C suite comes out and they go tada, here are our vlogs, everybody. And you get a little sweatshirt and it's all up on it, right? And then nobody ever does anything. Well, the right thing for the customer might be to cancel anything with it. How do you reinforce these? Like, are you bringing it up in meetings are like how do you make sure that this stays top of mind for everybody?

Yeah, it's a great, great question. It's probably the hardest thing for leaders companies to do. I think it took me years to really figure out step one, you can't be fake. Like at the core, if these core values don't align with you and who you are, I highly recommend just going to a different company or going to like doing something different. Because who I am now is the same as who I was back then when I started the company. I just have a lot more money and a lot more availability of money to make an impact. I've got more money in people and product and opportunity to create a bigger impact. So like if you're an asshole and these core values don't align with you at the beginning, well, money will just multiply. You being a complete and an unkind. Right? So like at, at the core it just comes down to like who are you? And, and do these core values represent you? Because eventually if you fake it on social media, on Instagram, like if you, if you're taking pictures. Another way to explain this is like if your family is falling apart and you're, you're about to get a divorce, but, but you're taking pictures of you wife and the kids and the dog and everything's great and dandy.