Interview between Kevin 'KD' Dorsey and Ryan Frampton on champion selling and B2B sales best practices. Key points: crystallize KPIs early in discovery to set guardrails; use a detailed call scorecard (around 50 points) to evaluate calls; coach and enable champions with resources (ROI calculators, one-sheeters, checklists) so they can articulate ROI to VPs/CFOs; build ROI using conservative/worst-case assumptions (not best-case); typical CFO return expectations cited around 1:3–1:4 and small metric improvements (e.g., a 0.5% improvement) can meet those thresholds.
Chapters
Go talk to your. And we're like, all right, like here we go. Like that's how we do it. Or the opposite. This is actually my personal favorite is when like the sales rep goes like, all right, so like when can we hop on a call to speak with your cfo? They go, what? What on earth makes you think most.
CFOs are looking for a 1 to 4 return? We literally only need to improve your metrics by 0.5% for that to happen. The key things is giving them the resources and abilities to provide that champion that allows it to be easily forward.
So what are things that you have on your call scorecard for what you can share? Right, there's things I'm sure you can and things that you can't. But like what do you look for in a. I guess what is on that scorecard so your managers can prioritize properly.
Yeah, so there's around like 50 points. So there's quite a bit to work from. I think some of the key things in a discovery perspective is crystallizing the KPI. So the first thing that we're trying to do on a call other than understanding around like what inspired them to come on the call and doing like an agenda and et cetera. First, first focus in the discovery is crystallizing the KPI. So are you trying to book more meetings? Are you trying to increase the deflections of your support tickets? Are you trying to do like, like, like better. No show rates, like improve the show rate of your meetings? And then what that does is set the guardrail for the discovery. Because too often I find we start diving to current state too quickly and then from there they're just saying everything that they're currently doing and that goes 20 minutes. So I think one of the biggest things that we see that really turns reps from being mediocre to exceptional and great on our team is their ability to set the guardrails really early Discovery. Then they can just ask questions. Okay, like you're trying to book more meetings. How specifically are you going about that today? What's happening? What's going well? What's not going well? When you look at like last month, like what was your team actually able to achieve versus their target? Like it's really easy to get answers that land very efficiently, which is what allows you to then do a demo and pricing potentially even on that same call versus if you just start with open ended questions that don't really have any like barriers to them, like who knows what they're going to tell you about. So I think that's one of the key things. The other thing that I've been really trying to get our team to focus on is at the end of the call, we go through during just around how they can get ROI of the tool, etc. Then we leave the call without understanding if our champion. Because oftentimes champion selling actually understands how to articulate that ROI to their leadership. So a big question that we have in that scorecard is asking the champion at the end of the call. It's like, hey, out of everything you saw today, and it sounds like you're leaning in on this when you go to your VP or CRO, etc, how are you planning to articulate the roi? And we'll typically get two types of answers. One bulletproof, like xyz.
Great.
Yep, I agree. Here's a resource that actually can help you better articulate that as well. Or we might get someone say, oh, I don't know. And then, you know, hey, I know you have that meeting with your VP tomorrow. What I recommend is let's toss that to next week. Let's delay that. Let's get on a call to further go through a business case and better articulate the roi. I can help you with that. And in this way, when we have that one shot to go into that meeting with the vp, it's going to be successful. Because I know that you need this for your team. You want this for your team.
I love that. I think it's so important. Champion selling, I don't even want to say it's a lost art. So I don't think a lot of people have really, truly leaned into it. But like, we sell to our champion and then we just like, just hang them out to dry. It's like, all right, go, go talk to your feet. And we're like, all right, like here we go. Like, that's how we do it. Or the opposite. This is actually my personal favorite is when like the sales rep goes like, all right, so like, when can we hop on a call to speak with your cfo? And I go, what? What on earth makes you think that you will be able to sell my CFO better than me in a 30 minute session?
Right?
Like, they just asked for the top. And it's like, do you really want that? That's actually gonna make it worse, right? So I love that. Right? And so then let's go a layer deeper there. Then how do you work with your reps to support that champion, Right? So say they do come back and it's kind of like, well, you know, like, I guess, I'm not sure. Like, I think I'll. I'll tell them this or that. Like, how do you help your reps coach that champion and kind of help them buy, so to speak?
Yeah, no, great question. So I think the key things is giving them the resources and abilities to provide that champion that allows it to be easily forward up. So we have things like ROI calculators that all we need our champion to really understand is their key metrics. And then we can automatically calculate that on that call and we can give them a copy and go through the articulation of it with them. So I almost describe it to our reps is like be their sales manager. Like exactly what I would ask you ask them those questions and come from a place of empathy, of course. But that's the key thing is like enable them with resources.
I think it's so important is like we talk about this a lot internally and the companies that I talk to and advise and consult, it's like, you know what questions the VP behind the curtain's gonna ask. You know, why isn't there like a one sheeter, Oh, I don't know, a video set answering those questions. You know what legal's gonna ask. Give your that checklist. Like you just know, right? And they don't just. I never understand that process driving is important now. Quick tip for everyone on ROI calculators. You wanna call us out and I'll get your feedback on it. When you're building roi, you have to build ROI around the worst case scenario you can agree to. Not the best case scenario. And reps always do the best case scenario. You're gonna see a 1300% ROI on our product if you just double your pipeline and increase your show.
Right?
And like, like no one believes that versus, like, do you think maybe you'll book at least one more meeting per rep per quarter? If they were doing video or however you phrase it, it's the worst case. Like 1, 1 PER still covers, right? Like that's, that's where I think with ROI people, I still remember, I won't say the company. I still remember I went through a process with a company and it got down to this point and they put together ROI potential and it showed like an 1800% increase in pipeline. Yeah, I was like, y' all come on, 8. 1800%? What world are you living in that you think I'm going to 1800 my pipeline? Do you? I would be a billionaire now, right? But like the Reps just don't connect the dots there. So. Yeah, I'm glad you called it out, but we gotta be careful with it. Go ahead.
Yeah, well, I think a big part of it is just asking that individual, like, if they have an understanding around, like, what target returns their CFOs like, look for. Right. And a lot of times, like, in a SaaS business, it's like 1 to 4, 1 to 3. Right. 1 to 4 is great. 1 to 3 is acceptable. So then if you show, if you anchor with one of your case studies to your point and say, like, hey, like, this is what HubSpot saw. They got a 400% increase. I'm definitely not promising you this, but it does happen. Right. But most CFOs are looking for a 1 to 4 return. We literally only need to improve your metrics by 0.5% for that to happen. Like, how do you feel we could drive towards having that 0.5% increase? Or what concerns do you have of us doing that? So I think that's the key thing.
Yeah. Because that's where you can go takeaway. Right. Because if you don't believe we're gonna get you a 0.5%, we don't even show this to your CFO. Like, if we're not even on that level, just scrap it now and just call it a day. And that's where you get that extra buy in from your channel. Like, no, no, no. We will at least see that. Great. And let's go.
