Diving Into a New Way to Work with Beth Jacobs

Foreign. Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host, Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders, where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster, and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset goals, time management, and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExCexcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready, and let's dive into the good stuff. What up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host, Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And today we are talking about the future of work. Now, because I believe that the future of work is already here. And yet so many of us as leaders and as companies are trying to adapt, to transform, to figure out how do we do this the right way? How do you give your team autonomy while at the same time giving structure? How do you give people flexibility and freedom while at the same time getting results? How do you give people this remote working space but still hold people accountable? It is a really hard problem to solve, which is why I'm so excited to have Beth Jacobs on the show with me today. She's the chief growth officer over at V Chief and this is where she is focused. This is what she's passionate about on how can we do work right now and looking into the future. So I'm pumped for this topic today. Beth, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much. Super excited to be here, Katie.

This is going to be a good one. So I got to ask the first question of why this topic? When I asked you what you want to talk about, what you're focused on, this was what came up. You said the future of work and autonomy, flexibility, accountability. Why is this so top of mind for you right now?

I think it's been top of mind for me most of my career. I think most folks have found that work doesn't work for them. It's something that is obviously required in order to pay the bills and do all of the things you want to do in life. But it doesn't work for most people the way it has been traditionally set up. And so much of how we work today has been set up, you know, 100 plus years ago in a different time, a different era and a different, just a different place. So what I found over my career Is where I thrive is not in a traditional work setting. And I think that's true for a lot of folks out there. So that's why it's top of mind for me. And I think that developing a new way to work and can only bring our businesses forward at a much faster clip.

And I want to touch on this word you said, which is thrive. Right. So, like, I didn't thrive in, like, the normal work setting because we'll unpack how work came to be here in a second. Like, how did you ask this question? Like, how did you figure out how you thrived or that it wasn't working for you? Right. Because that one's different. Everyone has different styles and needs. But, like, how. What did you pick up on where you find? Like, no, like, this isn't working for me. Like, there has to be a better way.

Yeah, yeah, I would say. And I will, you know, full disclosure. I've been working from home since 2009, so it's been a long road. I think the. There were many things over the years and in different roles and positions. And when I say I wasn't thriving, don't get me wrong, I was still performing. I was always, you know, at the top of the list. And I actually, that's what has put. Provided me with flexibility and with more autonomy when other folks weren't given that same level. So that's why I've been working from home from 2009. And I think that there were a lot of indicators around when I worked in an office, the social scene that a lot of folks have. I was working so many hours, probably 70, 80 hours a week. Because what I realized is, during the day, there's so much politicking going on in the office that I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna politic all day, and then I have to get my work done, and then that's happening at night. And I can't imagine. I know for some folks, they enjoy the, like, office dynamic, and I do to an extent. And I miss those parts of it to an extent. But not all day, every day. Like, I come to work because I want to accomplish things and I enjoy what I do, but I do not want to do it 80 hours a week anymore.

And I like that you distinguish the difference between performing and thriving, because I think there's actually a really good call out because there are a lot of high performers that are not thriving. Right. Living their best lives, having the energy, the relationships that they want or they need, but they're performing so they're like, well, this must be the way. And so break down the history of work for me real quick because I love that you called this out of like, you know, how we're working now. This. I mean, obviously I don't remember the last time I was working 9 to 5. I don't think I've ever worked 9 to 5. But conceptually 9 to 5, right. Like in an office, all those things. Talk about kind of that evolution of works. I think the backstory here would help people have a better understanding of like where even like the eight hour day work came from and all of that. So break that down for everyone because I think the history here is very interesting.

Yeah. And I think, and I am no expert in labor relations and the history of work, but my understanding is that a lot of that came out from the Ford production lines and where the eight hour workday came from, five days a week, all of that narrative came from that place. And at that time that was a concession, right? That was a smaller amount of time that it that folks were working before and that Ford felt that folks needed to be able to thrive. And so that was progress at that time. And now it's been 100 years and that hasn't really changed. And I would say in professional settings, in the, in a lot of work settings, folks are not even working eight hour days. They are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week. And my question there is, are folks actually accomplishing more in that time or less? And my belief is that 100% they are accomplishing less. There have been many studies done that says that most folks have about four or, I'm sorry, five to seven hours of true productivity in their day. Not work time. Like you can do a lot during work time, right? The chitty chat, all of the other things sit in on this webinar, listen to it, consider it part of your work day and do a lot of other things and that are or are not productive. And so there's been a lot of research, there's been a lot of new information uncovered and yet folks are really married to the 9 to 5. And in professional office environments, especially with new technology where folks can be available 24, 7 and that it has gone to a whole new level of burnout. And honestly a lack of engagement.

It's crazy, right? I like how it is, I think very similar studies, I think some of the more recent ones are like two to three hours of productive work per.

Day at a time. And like in chunks, right?

In chunks. Not like, not flow state, like I got 15 minutes here, I got maybe a 20 minute burst over here. Two to three hours of productive work per day is what they are seeing in the knowledge worker space, which is just insane, right? But that people are still working 9, 10, 11 hour days. And it's like, what are we working on? Where is that time going? And what always cracks me up about Ford, right? You know, because like Ford did. Ford was the one that like, you know, he made the concession, he shortened the hours. But a lot of people forget why he did it. Okay. Ford was a capitalist. What he realized if people were working 12 hours, they couldn't spend money. If they were working from seven to seven, they didn't need a car. They wouldn't. They were things because they were always at work. So he conceded so people could spend, so they'd have to work so he could keep them in the cycle. Like the dude knew what he was doing all this. And yet here we are 100 years later. Nine to five, nine to five. And for a lot of people it's eight to five to seven to dinner time, to nine to a little bit of email cleanup, wake up and do it all over again.

And so, yeah, I read an interview with a woman recently who said, who lives off the grid. And, and they were like, well, how long does it take you to build a fire and to like make your meals and all of this? And she's like, you know, it takes a long time. And she's like, but it's amazing to me what people will do to avoid building a fire. Like, you're still, you're still, you're doing all of these things to avoid the fire. It's like doing what, what I'm doing. But I don't have to do what you do. And don't get me wrong, I'm not going off the grid.

Okay? Yeah, we all have visions of that now. Like I'm looking at buying some land. Like, oh, it'd be nice just to really, really unplug. So talk. Let's go down this path here of like how much of that is self inflicted? Kind of what you were just talking about versus the environment work is creating. Because I think there's two sides of this, right? Like, I love that analogy. Like people will avoid making the fire. No one's making them avoid making the fire. That's so talk about first, like the self inflicted, like what are things that as an individual I can and should be doing to thrive in work? And then we can talk about what companies and leaders can be doing to Help people thrive in work.

Yes. So part of my work history is that I definitely some self inflicted work there. I mean, absolutely. I started working when I was 15. I was like, I want to go to college. There's no way my parents are going to pay for it. So I need to work and I need to be good at it and I need to make as much money as I can so that I can go to college and not have much debt and do all of those things. And so at a very young age, that is what worked for me. I worked at an amusement park and I worked my way up the little corporate rides department ladder and worked 50 hours a week while going to school full time, 80 hours a week in the summer. And when I graduated from college I was like 40 hours a week. This feels like nothing. So what did I do? I worked more. And the problem is that you get into a cycle where that is rewarded. Right? Like you're going to work, I can, I can have you instead of hiring two people. And you know, so that it worked for me for a while, right. It helped me get where I am today. I was rewarded for it. And so it has taken me many years to break some of those habits. And it's still something that I have to consciously do every day. And so some of that is very self inflicted. And then the other half of that is, is that it is rewarded. People love it when you are willing to give it your all. Right, but should you be giving your all to work or should there be something left for the rest of your life? And so there are people and organizations who are willing to take your all. And I think the. So you get rewarded for it. So I do think that there's two sides of it at every piece. I think with the culture that we are building at V. Chief and part of what I found in my years of consulting is that people might be willing to give their all for a while and that might work for you for a little while, might work for both sides. It will not work for long. It will not work for the long term. There is a sustainability factor that every individual needs for their lives and then every business needs in order to move them forward.

This might be a loaded question here, but I'm going to ask it because I struggle with this internally as well. Do you think if you went back and did it differently, do you think you'd be in the situation you are now? This is what I struggle with. Sometimes it's almost like we have to go through it to get to this enlightened place of like, you know what, maybe that wasn't all worth it, but at the same time, would I be in this situation if I hadn't? So what are your thoughts there? Because I struggle with this topic internally is like, you know, I'm talking to people younger in their careers and letting them know, like, hey, like, you know, it's not all about this, but at the same time it's like, can they get to this, you know, this place of freedom, this place of autonomy, if they don't do that early? So talk, talk a little bit about that. I'm really curious on your.

Yeah, that's a tough question because. And I brings up a lot of different things and I think around, like, how what opportunities people have at a young age and like, what their network is at a young age and how all of those pieces fit together. So I'm going to put that piece aside for a minute and more focus on just the root of your question. I would say, I don't know. I think that every piece of my work and life experience have gotten me to where I am today. Whether it was a terrible work experience, whether it was like an amazing mentor or boss that I had along the way, both of those things have, have brought me to this place. Now, looking back, do I look and see at all of those hours that I were, that I was working and I was performing, could I have performed better actually, if I had worked less? I remember one moment where, you know, it's probably one o' clock in the morning and I'm working on something to get to my boss and I like, shoot her a message and she writes me back and is like, my advice to you in this moment is go to bed. And she's like, this answer will be clear to you in the morning. And she's like, it's not clear to me. It's 1am it's not going to be clear to you either. I wake up and I'm like, okay. I go to bed, I get up the next morning and I'm like, oh yeah? And I finished the thing in like 15 minutes. So, like, you know, was I. You know, it's the whole like, what do people value? And so like, my boss at that moment did not value the fact that I was working at one amount, but so many cultures do. And so if people can think about what they are valuing in the fact that you are working so hard and what that actually means in terms of what you are producing and how you are performing. So looking back, I'm not sure, honestly. And it was, you know, times have changed a lot. I'm not sure if I would be here at that moment if I hadn't put in all of that time. But I can say that I do think that I would have performed even better had I felt that I was able to work less.

I think that's the key on all this is, like, there's working more and there's getting the right things done. There's working more and having quality of work. One, I've had very similar conversations, like, with my managers, right? Like, I get a ding on the weekend that they're updating the one on one doc, or I get an email late at night and I'm like, you better stop right now. Like, I don't know why you're working on this on a Sunday afternoon, because to me, that's actually a sign of something else. Either we're not focused during the week the way that we need to be, or something else is happening here because I don't want you working on this on Sunday. That's not what it's there for. Right. And I think it's important as leaders that, like, I recognize hard work, but I'm not an effort hound. I'm an efficiency hound. Like, get it done. I don't want it. If it's taking you 10 hours, we.

Need to talk about, let's talk about that.

Like, even with my team, same as, like, I'm hearing, oh, like, oh, like you're putting all these extra hours. Why? Like, it's not, it's. Something's wrong here right now. So let's, let's shift this to the leadership side, right? Because I know a lot of leaders, you know, are dealing with and struggling with this. Like, okay, I hear you, Beth. Yeah, great. Cool. Utopian idea. How do I make sure that, you know, people are getting the right things done while giving this sort of autonomy or freedom to do it? Like, let's talk about now how leadership can maybe set this tone a little bit better.

Yeah, it comes from the top, 100%. If your leader is getting pressure, they are going to put that pressure on you most of the time, not all of the time. Unless they are a really fantastic leader. But yes, I remember. And back to your question around internal versus external pressure. When I first got kids, we went different route, foster care. I got kids on a Friday afternoon and I had just traveled for two weeks straight. And you know what my boss said? You can take a couple days off, but make sure you get this report done before 9am Monday morning. And so there, that is where it has to come. It has to come from the top. You cannot survive in your job thinking that you yourself can be the one who's going to make all of the change and live a, you know, a healthy, sustainable life. So as leaders, it comes down to finding a fit for you in an organization that values the same things that you value and then ensuring that that is the leadership that you are giving to your team. So, for example, I did do consulting for a few years, and honestly, most of it was because I was like, work isn't working for me. I'm going to make it work for me. And then I started with V Chief, because this was the place where I felt that I could be myself and that it was a place that upheld the same values that I have. And so whatever your values are, you need to explore that, figure out what they are and find a place that values the same things. And it's okay if folks out there don't value the same things that I do. It's not a problem. Everyone should and can do what is important to them. But I think it's about finding that fit and finding a place that has the same outlook that you do.

And that's where I think, actually a lot of founders and leaders sometimes mess up, is they push either their values down or they feel like, all right, well, I'm not asking my people to work this way. This is just how I, I work and they get how that actually plays out, right? No, I don't want my people working on the weekend. No, I would never want that. But your whole team knows you work on the weekends?

Yes.

You're going to create that dynamic. You're going to create that, that culture, Right? That was actually something that happened with my team when I moved. So I was in la, move to Austin, and, you know, I start work at 6am, always have. That's what I do. And what started happening, right, is I was starting at 6. Most of my team was still a couple hours behind. So, like, you know, I'm sending slacks and, you know, emails out at 4 o' clock in the morning and people started responding at 07:00', clock, my time, at my time. And it actually took me like a couple weeks to go say, wait, wait, wait, wait. It is five o' clock in the. What on earth are you doing responding to this email right now? They're like, oh, well, I mean, you know, you sent it out, so I wanted to make sure I got to it. I was like, oh, Jesus, Right. So like, I would like leave a lot of things unsaid. I was just getting my work done, but I wouldn't send them there until I knew the team was up and going because they'll, they'll mirror that. Even if you're not trying to set that up, it just happens because you're the leader, people look to it.

So I would say, I would say yes and though actually to that, yes. So we, we have definitely had that issue at Beachief, but our entire idea is that you work when it works for you. And so if you get a slack from the CEO at 10 o' clock on a Saturday night, you know, there's a good chance she's in Egypt and she's working when it works for her. And that doesn't mean that that has to work for you. And so we actually, folks do work, they might work on the weekend, they might work. They might be in a different time zone, in a different country. They might, they're, you know that that's kind of what we do is do it when it works for you and be very clear with folks that that is not when they need.