Lead the Company with Founder-Led Selling with Carol Malakasis

Foreign. Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host, Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders, where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster, and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset, goals, time management and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExCexcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready and let's dive into the good stuff. But first, a quick shout out to today's sponsor, Vidyard. If you aren't using video in your sales process, I promise you, you are leaving money on the table. I personally have been using Vidyard with my teams for years now and we use it everywhere. Top of funnel to book more meetings via email and LinkedIn. Middle of funnel to improve show rates, to demos, post demos to do proposals and follow up and close deals faster. Using video allows you to connect better with your prospects, bring your personality, energy and enthusiasm across every single time and they have a much more impactful and memorable experience for your buyer. So again, if you're not using video, you need to be. And if you are using video, you should be using Vidyard. Check out vidyard@vidyard.com and with that, let's get back to the show. What up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd and we are going to talk founder sales today. Founder led selling where most startups start, the founder who created it, the baby, the designer. You have to be able to sell it. So often founders build it and they think that's enough to land the sale. If you build it, they will come or they immediately try to outsource the selling before they themselves have learned how to do it. And that is why I am so excited to have Carol Malacostas with me today who is the managing partner and head of training at Rampt. She gets to work with founders, interview founders, train founders on how to sell and how to build that first playbook to bring sellers into. So we're going to dive into founder led selling, building playbooks. Carol, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you so much. I am so excited. This is like Christmas Day. I've been following your career for a while and I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for Having me.

Hey, well, I am pumped. You know, I started seeing your name popping up, I would say about a year or so ago, I think started to like make the radar and I see the content and I see what's happening. I'm going, you know what, it's time, it's time to bring her in and talk about this. And when I reached out to Carol, I asked her for some topics and one of the things that she suggested was around this idea of founder led selling, which we haven't talked about on the show yet. And so I would love to dive into this with you because you get to talk to a lot of founders and where I actually love to start these things are the common mistakes. What are some of the common mistakes you see founders making when they are first trying to bring a product to market?

How much time do you have?

We have roughly 37 minutes.

Okay, I think we're good. So, you know, I think it starts even before going to market or deciding we need to go to market. So there's this idea which you just mentioned a few seconds ago that, you know, if I build it, they will come. No one's going to come. No, nobody knows. How. How can people know? And you know, I've seen this so many times where I speak to founders and I'm like, okay, great, what have you done so far? What's your sales strategy or what are you looking to accomplish? And they don't have an answer. And to me, as a salesperson, because I've been selling for 11 plus years now, it, it baffles me because these are some of the smartest people. They've gone to an Ivy League school. You know, they're engineers, they built this product, they understand the different possible applications, but sales is almost like an afterthought. And when you tell them, no, you need to sell it, you need to start talking to people, it's almost like a light bulb goes off. So, number one, it's the mistake that I see often is that there's this notion of people will come to me, so we need to go through that hump of, no, no one's going to come. And now that we're both on the same page and no one's going to come, let's talk about how you need to start thinking about your process. Number two, and this also used to surprise me a lot. And again, I'm surprised because I'm a salesperson. So some things come easy to me. Right. Or you don't need to explain them to me because I've learned them over the years. When you ask them, what problem are you solving? They can't really give you an eloquent, short and sweet answer. And then I have to go dig through the different layers and understand and listen. I'm happy to do that. That's my job. But I'm thinking, if I'm here with the best of intentions to really listen to you and understand and I'm not able to do it, how do you expect this stranger you're going to email or target on LinkedIn to understand? So, number one is the messaging and a method that I found that that's simple and works well is, is to kind of get them thinking, what problem am I solving? Who am I solving that problem for? Who are the different players in the space already doing what I'm doing right now? And how am I different or better? And that's when they're like, okay, got it. Right. Because you need to be able to explain what you do to anyone, no matter their level of industry knowledge or expertise.

And how do you help them get to that point of being succinct? Right. Because I hear from founders all the time. It's like, what do you do? Well, we are the new up and coming, innovative, disruptive, transformational tool that will let. And it's this, like, how do you help them get a little bit more succinct with their messaging iteration?

Will run it over and over and over. And you know every LinkedIn profile has or should have a tagline, right? Well, next to your name, you say, I help SDRs be better. Or mine is, you know, I help sales founder build and scale their first sales playbook. So you need in one sentence, in ten words or less to tell me what you do. So we'll run it over and over and over till it gets to that place.

I like that. And then, so I guess what do you do if they're not sure what problem they solve? I'm still shocked by how many founders. They build something because they think people will want it, but it doesn't actually solve a problem. So actually, I'm gonna rephrase this question. When you're looking at companies to get involved with and, you know, to invest in and work with, I guess, what do you look for in terms of the product or the problem that they're solving to say, ooh, this is good.

You know what it is? And I feel like there's two questions in there, so let me take a slight left turn, if that's okay.

Absolutely.

When I look at who I'm going to work with. I don't so much look at the product, I look at the founder. Are they coachable like a sales rep? If I'm going to hire a sales rep and they're not coachable, they're not open to feedback, they don't trust the process, and they're like, oh, I'm excited. I'm going to run with this process. Doesn't matter what I do, doesn't matter how many times I say what I'm going to say. Doesn't matter if I hold their hand, doesn't matter how many scripts I write, they're not going to do well. And I think the positioning and the messaging and the willingness to follow that goes a lot, goes a longer way than the actual product itself. I mean, I'm sure you've seen this in your career where you have the cure for cancer and no one knows about it and it doesn't matter. Or you could have a very mediocre product. But if the person is so passionate and their positioning is so strong and they have the excitement and the process and they want to go talk to everyone about it, people will buy it. So I think that it's not so much the product that we look for, it's the person and how ready they are to commit, to learn how to sell, how much they trust the process and how much of a burning need this is for them to actually go do it.

I love that as a call out too. Like, do they need to. Are they dabbling? Are they dabbling? They just, like, have this idea of being a founder. So, okay, so let's go another layer deeper here. So, okay, I've come, I'm working with you now. I've identified the problem. I've got it succinct. I'm open to coaching, but I'm a product guy, Carol. Like, I'm not a salesperson. I can't talk to strangers. Like, so how do you work with them to embrace that a little bit? Because I do think a lot of early founders, and you actually probably see this even more than I do of, like, they build it and they're like, well, I'll just hire someone to sell it. And they never get involved. So, like, how do you help someone who isn't a salesperson actually feel comfortable with selling?

You know, I think there are stereotypes around salespeople that a lot of founders have, and I think that there are stereotypes around engineers that we as salespeople have. We see them as nerds that don't know how to talk to people, and then I need to teach them in how to get good at it and embrace it. So I think it's about understanding if I get good at founder sales, what will this do for me? And it's not about just being a brand evangelist, it's about having a process and really learning how do I get someone that's a prospect and turn them into a paying customer. And if I master this process, then when I'm ready to hire my first AE or my SDR to help me with top of funnel, I can plug them into that process and they're going to use it and everyone's going to be happy and I don't need to figure that out. Or, you know, I've seen it a lot where a founder will say, well, you know, I don't want to deal with this, I just want to build and I'm going to hire a VP of sales. Well, first of all, a VP of sales is going to cost you a lot of money. And secondly, VPs of sales tend to be quantitative oriented. They don't want to necessarily roll up their sleeves and build process. And if the founder has no prior knowledge of obstacles in the process, how you need to run it, how you want to be thinking about it, they can communicate with that vp. So there's often a clash. And I think that when they realize the importance that this is going to, how important this is going to be, and how much it will help them, not burn through cash by hiring the wrong people. Not burn through cash because they're burning through great leads because they don't know how to close them. Not burn through cash because they're onboarding customers that are not a great fit and they churn it just opens their minds to all the possibilities and all the which ways where they can communicate with their customers. And I think that once they start to realize that, they really love it and they get good with the idea that this can be a superpower for me and I want to get good at it.

I love it. And you touched on some of my favorite things here. So we're gonna go on it, right, this idea of a sales process, because, like, my big whole thing is, right, you manage processes, you develop people, you don't manage people. People are unmanageable. You can't manage us. We don't even know how to manage ourselves. But you got to create a process, right? So where do you start? And this might even be where we're now starting to get into the playbook a little bit, because, like the playbook is the documented process. So where do you start kind of this sales process with them in terms of trying to make it repeatable?

Yeah, yeah, great question. So when people come to us, they're at a different point in their sales journey. Typically, 90% of our customers just raised seed two, $3 million. So they can, you know, afford to go through this. And they also realize, and some of them also have pressure from their investors that I need to go sell, I need a process. Some of them have zero customers and we need to start from scratch and work on that messaging we just talked about. Some of them have a few paying customers, but they've gotten them through inbound through connections, their investors, their accelerator, fellow founders, whatever. Right. But they don't really know how to go out and create outbound. So now we're going to get into the sales playbook. I primarily focus on B2B SaaS. And when you think of that sale, which is very different than what I used to do when I was selling because I've always done transactional fast. B2C. When you think of the B2B SaaS sales playbook, there's really, let's call them four pillars. Number one is lead gen, right? How do I attract activity top of funnel? Where do these people live? How do I start talking to them and create some initial interest? Number two, and this is where most people mess up. How do I qualify them? How do I make sure that KD is a qualified opportunity to revenue for me? How do I know he's not a window shopper or that he has a burning pane I need to solve? And then after I qualify that person, I understand where they are, where they're looking to go, how my product can plug in, how do I demo them, and how do I create a custom demo to their needs versus my cookie cutter sales pitch that I just kind of go around and show people and hope that they'll come on. And of course, between that stage, between demo and close, you have objection handling. You have the right way to structure pricing, you have sending a proposal, you have negotiation, and then you have the close. And sometimes we'll work with some more technical clients. That mid market enterprise sale, where you have multiple decision makers, you need to pitch, you need approval from, I don't know, legal finance, you need a validation event, you need a mutual action plan, et cetera, et cetera. So you need to paint out that playbook for them and then say, okay, this is how you go through each part of it.

And so let's Touch on that a little bit and we can almost go line by line here. Right. So where do you start with a founder for Lead gen. Right. Like what kind of advice or tips do you give them to generate some of that top of funnel action?

Yeah. So before we go into Lead Gen, we go through an exercise where I make sure I have a pretty solid understanding of their product, what they've done so far, who they're targeting, all the different ICP's, ideal client profiles or, you know, buyer Personas, whatever you want to call them, problems that they're solving, etc. So after we figure that out and all of this is assumptions, right? Because we haven't tried it out, maybe you think it's the head of engineering, but in reality it's the cto. Right. You don't know, we're making hypotheses. So after we get some, some good assumptions that this is whose problem we're going to solve, this is their title, this is the size of the company, blah, blah, blah. We test those out. So for Legion, I find that LinkedIn is a goldmine. And I think that connect and pitch, as long as you know how to do it, works really well. I mean, I see it from us. We built our business on LinkedIn. Right now 80% of our customers are referrals, which is great, but at the beginning it was all finding the people that have the highest need for the problem we're trying to solve. Finding the low hanging fruit to just kind of get. Yes, that is a problem for me. Yes, I am curious to learn more about what you offer. Right. So LinkedIn and it's like, how do you build your profile to show that you're an authority and showcase social proof? How do you build lists to go after those people? What type of content do you post to help your sales effort and build your brand? Because you can't sleep on that. Right. What's the messaging where it's not salesy, it's not spammy, it's short and sweet, it's to the point and we'll get you a yes or no answer to move people either further along down the funnel or get them out. And at the same time, how do we use email? Whether that's email drip campaigns again, for people to see your name more and be like, okay, Carol does this. And how do we use personalization? How do we sell via video for founders that actually want to do it? I think only 2, 3% of salespeople actually use video. And if founders can learn how to do it, they're going to be unstoppable. So things of that nature.

Thinking of Legion, I like that because also it's multi pronged is going through it. Funny enough, actually had Tara Horseworth on the show earlier today actually recording because she helps people build like executives build their brand. And I can't remember who said it, but it was like along the lines of, you know, before you build a product, build a brand. Like before you like build that distribution engine, right? If and when I ever become a founder of a company, it's going to be selling to salespeople. I've already built the distribution engine. I already have the brand there to then introduce something to them.

So I really can't buy your product, right? Like I don't need to know what it is, I'll just buy it, right?

And you have that trust, right? Like you build enough, you give enough and, and then the trust is there. So now I want to flip to then the demo because founder demos seem to be on two paradigms. Either they're actually really good because they know the prospect and they know it, or they're just off the deep end, you know, just a complete pitch fest the entire time. So what do you, what do you coach your founders on in order to run a good demo?

Well, before the demo, they need to do a discovery. You can't go to the demo without a discovery. And you know, I don't, I'm not sure if you've seen this as well, KD, but I've been seeing it on LinkedIn a lot lately where really, really big sales thought leaders will say, well, I just want to see the demo. Make B2B like B2C. Don't have me go through a process. Discovery isn't important. And I'm thinking good luck to you. Because unless there's something out there that I'm just super unaware of and a really much better way to do things, I do not think that you, unless you're in a very transactional, straightforward sale where you know you're speaking to the decision maker, I don't think you should just be demoing people. I think you really need to spend time talking to them and qualifying them for needs, right? So when I first talk to people before they start working with us, and I'll ask them, please run me through your current sales process. How are you doing things? Most people will just be like, oh yeah, KD responded to my message and I showed him the demo and I'm like, okay, and what happened next? I haven't heard from Him. I wonder why. So I think that there needs to be an initial call where you understand what they've done so far, what their immediate needs are, what their ideal situation would look like using a product like yours, who's involved in the decision making process. Is this something they're looking to roll out now or is it January of 2023? You need to understand those things. So when you go into a demo, not only do you have that ammunition to sell better, but you can, you can give someone a personalized experience where you're like, okay Katie or okay, Carol, last time we spoke, you told me that right now this is a problem you're solving, this is what you'd like, this is what you've tried. Now let me show you how our product can help you get there. The product doesn't actually change, but the positioning makes the person feel like it's about them. And I think this really, really, really matters.

I think I understand where some of the pushback comes as you, you know, you see who's writing about it and posting it because of that last point you just made, which is unfortunately, most reps don't cater the demo based off discovery. And so as like a buyer, you feel like, well, why did I just go through all that? Like, why, why did I sit through all these questions and go through it, Only get the same demo that you show everybody else? Because my timing, that's only benefits you, my decision making process only benefits the buyer or the seller versus we don't tend to cater the demo to the person. So how do you coach your founders on how to actually do that? So you did the qualification. Great. How do you make sure you actually tailor the demo to the person you're talking to?

Yeah, I think before just hopping into the actual technical demo, you can personalize your deck from very small things to using the company's logo and colors and branding, which is table stakes, to actually having some slides that speak to their current spot, where they are, to what their key objectives are and walking them through that. And again, it may be very simple because they literally just told you about that on their last call, but you can see people's faces bright enough and be like, yeah, that's me. Well, of course it's you, you told me. But again, it just shows that you've taken the time to craft it in a way and you can use your words to position it as unique to them. Positioning and messaging matters, and we know that as salespeople. But I'll tell you that when I was selling I had never used a personalized sales deck, and if someone had told me I needed to do it, I'd be like, why? I don't get it. My product doesn't change. But in those longer sales cycles, I think it makes a difference.

It does, because they, you know, especially for the longer cycles, they're not looking for a salesperson. They're looking for a guide. They're looking for a consultant, someone that can actually teach them something, help them accomplish their goals. Now, I want to go to the other side of this, because I do hear this oftentimes from founders, like, why can't my salespeople sell like me? Like, I'm the best closer on the team. I'm the one that, like, they can't sell like me. How do you help founders get, like, what's in their head and down on paper into a process so that when they make that first hire, the reps actually can hit the ground running?

Yeah. There's a couple of different things I think that founders need to realize that no one will ever be excited about their product as they are, and that's normal. I've always been fortunate to work for companies whose product I was very excited about and I was looking forward to going to work and sell, but it's not my company. You can't expect other people to a, know as much as you do unless they've been with you for a while or started on really early. And secondly, again, there, it's not their product.

Right.

You just can't ask people to feel the same way, I think. Yeah, but the way. The way you help them get very close to that is, first of all, I think you need to find people, hire people that are passionate about the industry, they're passionate about your product, and that gives so much fulfillment to the sales rep that it's already a win coming in and having someone that's curious to learn, curious to excel, curious to get better. Right. So it starts with that even before we go into the process. Number two, when you do decide to hire salespeople or, you know, AES, SDRs, you need to have a process down. I don't want to come into an organization where I need to figure it out. I'm not making enough money for that. I'm an ae. I'm not a VP of sales. Give me a process and I'll run with it. I'll now make it good. But don't have unrealistic expectations of your people. And I think it's also, if you see a founder selling it's contagious. Their excitement and their confidence and their passion. You want to learn by their side, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And so I guess how do you help them create that process? Because it's so true. And you see this all the time where it's like, oh, that's why I hired them, right? I hired them to figure it out. And it's like, no, no, you hired a salesperson. The salesperson was hired to sell. Sell, not to figure out how to sell. So how do you help the founder actually create a process? And maybe actually we should define that real quick for people listening. Right, so when you say a sales process, what does that mean?

So I'll create the playbook for them, meaning that that playbook we talked about with those four main pillars, the lead gen, the qualification, the demo, and the close. I'll build it out for them, custom to their product from A to Z. I'll build them what their LinkedIn profile needs to look like, what their messaging is, what goes into their email group campaigns, their talk track for their disco, their demo, their slides, their pricing, their closing. I'll listen to their calls, I'll send them recordings, I'll slap them on the wrist if they're not following the process and if they're not reading through the script. So that's my part, right? And sometimes I'll say, hey, Carol, I just hired two AES. Can you coach them? But the playbook is there. And then what I'll do with the salespeople is really, I'll spend most of my time on listening to calls, coaching them and teaching them how to best communicate what the product does, how to talk to customers.

Okay, so now. Okay, love it. So now we're getting into that playbook. So like, let's talk through this a little bit of what are some of the foundational things that should be in the sales playbook? But you kind of were touching on it a little bit there. But we went through them quick. Like you have the four pillars. What are some things that go into that playbook to actually help the rep? Like you kind of went through some scripting, some messaging, the demo deck, like what all should kind of be in that playbook.

How, how do you want to do this? Do you want to go through each part of the pillars or just high level?

So I think maybe. And if the playbook is just like those core four pillars, then yeah, I guess we've talked. Okay, all right, so let's just recap those real quick. So for a playbook, right, you had pillar one, which was lead gen, and so that's in the playbook. Pillar two is qualifying. Right.

Qualifying or discovery, whatever you want to call it.

Got it. Okay, I heard those is. Yeah. So qualifying discovery, then you got to the demo. Right. So, like how to run the demo, the deck, the slides, and then maybe I missed pillar four. What is that fourth pillar, then for.

The player in the demo, I also have pricing.

Okay.

And the fourth pillar, because often when they come to us, they don't have pricing. So I need to figure out how to position that, what it's going to be, how it fluctuates, etc. And then lastly, it's really how to close. And very, very, not often, very rarely, they could maybe close on that demo, but really for most cases is sending out a proposal, negotiating, creating objection documents, showing them how to handle those, and pushing the deal across the finish line. What does onboarding look like? What do next steps look like? How do I communicate that to the client? Set expectations, et cetera.

Gotcha. Okay, perfect. And so now if I'm a founder listening, or I'm an early rep at a company that doesn't have a playbook, like you don't have it, how would you recommend I start to try to build one if I'm not working with you? Right. Like, you know how to do all this and you can just do this. Well, I'll say quickly, but you know what I mean. This is not a fast process, but you can do it faster than most. What would your advice be to someone thinking like, okay, I need to do this. Where do I start?

I'll tell you what I wish I would have told myself in 2011 when I started selling, and I didn't know that back then. Start documenting everything.

Yes.

Start documenting every single thing you do and try it out. But don't try it out once. Try it out a lot of times. Put in the reps, record your calls, listen to your calls. I think the ROI on listening to calls is massive. And doing reps, whether it's role playing with your boss, with your team members. I used to role play with, with my partner at the time, I'd go back from work and be like, hey, I need to. I need to read my script to you.

Yes.

So, so document everything and really sort of try to figure out what's working, what's not working, and then go back to the drawing board.

Yeah. And I especially love, like, that last part there of just. It's the. It never stops. I think oftentimes people, you know, Build the playbook, and then it just gets dusty on a shelf somewhere and no one ever touches it, no one ever comes back to it. And this is a constant optimization and updating as you go go through it. And so, okay, so we're almost at. We're already at 30 almost now. Like, what haven't we touched on yet? When you think about, you know, founders that are looking to improve their sales, what. What else? What haven't we touched on? That you're like, you've seen it work, you know, it's important for them to hear.

You know, I think even before the playbook, it's, what's the right sales mentality? Which again, a lot of salespeople know. They know that the two things you can control are your attitude and your effort. And if you control those things, everything else will come. Or the idea that every no gets you closer to a yes. You make all these cold calls, you go through all these demos, and again, you start to document attractor metrics. How many nos do I need to get to get into a yes? How many messages do I need to send to get someone to say yes, let's hop on a demo. How many demos do I need to run to close a sale? It's getting into that mentality that it's a numbers game and that you need to put in the work and you need to be happy when you're putting in the work. I remember this is silly, but it's a story I love. When I started selling, I wasn't very good at it at all, and I needed the job. I had done outside sales. I was a founder myself, but I had never worked in a startup. And I got hired at this job and it was inside sales. Heavy, cold calling, 100 to 150 calls a day. And I sucked. I was so bad and I was trying so hard. I'd stay late, I'd role play, I bother my manager, the best reps. I really wanted to do well. And one day someone said, why don't you put a mirror on your desk so when you're calling, you're smiling because people will hear it in your voice. And I was like, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And I started doing it and it worked. Yeah, and I'm not saying everybody should have a mirror on their desk when they call, but there's things you can do to make sure you're setting yourself up for success, whether those are your metrics, whether those are subtle things, like I have a sticker on my Laptop that says shut up. And I tell people to create one for themselves. And I also use it for me because sometimes I just talk, talk, talk when it's my prospect that should be talking or the power of pausing.

I love a good pause. I love a good pause. Right. Like. And it's funny. Funny enough to like, obviously, you know, this is mostly audio, but I can show people on video. Like, I keep like my affirmation cards at the desk as well, which is like the reminder of like, hey, like, I'm committed, I'm caring, I'm feeling focused, I'm disciplined. Like, just re. Instilling the mindset that you need to have. Because we all get in low spots. We all get into a place of like, why am I doing this? Like, what is this all about? And then these things can pull us back in and get us back on, on track. And so I'm loving this actually bonus question here. Cause I think this is actually important. Okay. What would be your advice the founders, when they start to manage their first salesperson? Because like, managing salespeople and like, how to lead them is important. And it's a different animal because oftentimes it's the founder selling and then they hire the first couple reps. So now they are the sales manager. What advice would you give the founder who now is also wearing the sales manager hat, in terms of how to get the most out of their people?

Can it be more than one answer or are you looking for one magic answer?

Oh, it's one answer with as many things you want to put into it.

Okay, great. Because I like options. I'd say lead by example.

Okay.

And that could be a lot of things. It could be. I'm going to make a call to a client and I'm going to have my team listen in so they can see me fall on my face and they know it's okay to fall on your face. I'm going to be practicing next to them to show them that practice is important. Yes. I'm going to be kind to them and empathetic when they mess up and, and, and tell them that it's okay I messed up when I started doing this. But we're all in this together. I'm going to give them the tools that they need, whether it's the software, the CRM, the email drip campaign, whatever, the sales navigator subscription to go out and do their job. Right. I'm going to hold one on ones with them to realize what the bottlenecks are and get those out of the way. If there's things they can do to level up. You know, maybe it's a webinar, maybe it's a course. I'm going to pay for them to do that. There's a lot of different things you can do, but I think it's showing them that you're committed to helping them be their best.

I love that. I'm glad we got to that before we wrapped up here because I do think that's oftentimes where it can fall down is a founder, really. Actually, any leader can forget that their role is to lead, right? You can't just hire them and say, okay, go sell and think. Because also too founders that are listening. As much as you want to believe that reps are just completely money motivated, they're not. They want money, but they are motivated by you, the person, the company, the vibe and the culture. I think that's so, so important. So we got one last question here as we wrap up, right, because the name of the podcast is Live Better Sell Better because I have this strange idea, right? They're like, hey, if we took better care of ourselves, if we had more energy, more fulfillment, more joy, whatever, that the sales would also improve. What would your live better advice be for people listening?

It's what you said. It's not what you do during work hours, it's what you do outside of those work hours. And for certain people, it can be spending more time with family, getting more rest, whatever. For me, it's structuring habits that work for me and sticking to them. I'm very OCD when it comes to structure. I like it. It makes me feel calm and organized and like I know what's going on. So if you look at my calendar, everything's blocked out when I'm having lunch, when I'm going on a walk, when I'm waking up, what time I end my day. That structure helps me stay accountable. And when the workday ends, I don't feel like I left anything behind. I don't stress about it when I'm out. I don't stress about it when I go to sleep. So structure really works for me. But you know, I don't think I can give you universal advice. Everybody needs to find what's for them. But for me, knowing that I've taken care of everything that I need to take care of during the hours that I decide to work makes me feel really good about everything else that I'm doing. It's guilt free care all time.

I love it. I love it. I think it's so important that structure the planning so you can unplug. That's where I think. Same is like when I encourage people, plan your day. And yes, do a checklist or whatever so you can be done. Work at work so you don't have to work when work is done and being able to do that. So this was phenomenal. Carol, where can people get more of you? Follow.