Leadership in the Eyes of Individual Contributors with Zoe Hartsfield

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Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host, Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders, where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster, and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about mindset goals, time management, and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready, and let's dive into the good stuff. What up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host, Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And today we are going to talk about leadership, but from an individual contributor's point of view. Because so often, if you think about it, most of the leadership books are written by leaders. A lot of the leadership advice you see on LinkedIn is given by leaders. And we don't always actually get the perspective of an individual contributor, especially a high performing individual contributor, which really is who we should be learning from on how to lead. Because how you lead your people not only determines your career growth, but also your results. And knowing how to lead your best can quite literally make or break your career. Which is why I'm so excited to have Zoe Hartsfield on the call with me today. She's the community manager at Spec. She's all over LinkedIn, dropping knowledge bombs left and right, and she's going to be breaking down how to get the best out of your best. So dive in, y'.

All.

This is going to be great. Zoe, welcome to the show.

Oh, my gosh. First of all, that was an excellent introduction for everybody who clearly wasn't on the five minutes we were chatting before we hit record. I can't even believe that you just came up with that off the top of your head. That was not prepared. That was just like, man, that was awesome.

You know, I listen, I take notes, right? I write the things down and then I go. So now I gotta start actually with a little bit of a controversial question for you. And we were about to get into this is how did we lose you to marketing? How did we lose you to the dark side? You were coming up, you're in sales, you looks like you're crushing it. How do we lose you?

You know, okay, this is such an interesting question because I think if I lost my job tomorrow, I joke about this with my friends. I Would literally go, and this is probably like way too cocky of me, but I would go find a company, get hired as a BDR and just do a speed run to sales leadership. Like I would just see how quickly I could go from like BDR to leading a team because I think that would be a really interesting challenge. And I love sales and I love sales development. Like my heart is in sales development. Although I also have lots of opinions about like the value of full cycle reps, so whatever. But the moral of the story is when I was coming up, I worked in a very transactional, it was like a low, lower cost tool. I worked for a company that sold a video tool. And that sales cycle, my career path there was basically like, you can be a bdr, but if you start into sales, you're not going to be a mid market ae. You're going to be an SMB or BSV and you're just taking credit cards and passing people off to customer success. And for me, doing demos all day, taking credit cards and handing people off was not like the dream or like how I wanted to spend my every day. I wanted to be more strategic, I want to be more creative. And so just like looking at what the AE role, what my next potential step was in sales as a bdr, if it wasn't leadership was just not attractive to me. And so I, I had, I was really lucky. I had a good manager who was like, well Zoe, what don't you want to do? And so I wrote down all the things that I didn't want to do and I was like, I never want to make cold call again. I never want to like, whatever. I was like, I would send cold emails and Send videos and DMs all day long, but cold calling, just like it gave me so much anxiety. It was like the part of my day I hated. I got decent at it, but like I just, it brought me zero joy. And so I was like, I want to scrap that. And as I kind of like wrote out all the things I didn't want to do and then I got clear on the things that I did want to do, I figured out that there was, I think like where your passion and your skill set intersect, that's like where you need to double down. And for me there was just like a ton of alignment with marketing. And so I was like, I want to start conversations with strangers. I'll start more conversations with more strangers. Like, let me try my hand at marketing. And I found I was good at copywriting and that was sort of how it happened. And I was really intentional about getting there. And now I'm in a role that, like, didn't even really. I didn't know existed when I moved into marketing, which is so fun. And I get to work very, very closely with our business development team, which is the dream. And. Yeah, but I think if I were to lose my job tomorrow and I was like, I gotta get. I gotta get a job and get paid, I would go be a BDR again.

Okay, okay, well, obviously I don't want you to lose your job, but I hope we get you back someday. I hope. I hope the sales world gets you back because we need more community copywriting focused and marketing brain salespeople. We do. It tends to be this divergence where marketing doesn't really understand sales and sales doesn't really understand marketing. Where if you did, like, half my bookshelf down here are marketing books, right? Like how to market, how to do copywriting, all of that. Because it over overlaps so well. So, okay, so now let's continue down this path, right? And you just mentioned a little bit of like, you had a good manager. So let's start, you know, as an individual contributor. What is a good manager? What do you look for? Right, like how. How do you kind of stack rank that?

So I will add the caveat that, like, what I need might be different from what you need might be different from what somebody else needs. And so for me, the best managers manage the individual. They aren't like, I have my. I actually wrote about this today on LinkedIn. Shout out. Mandy, my manager, she actually was just announced today as our new VP of marketing. She's amazing, but she's so cool in the way that I can tell she's like, looking at you as a person, not like, here's my eight step one on one framework that we need to do every time we have a meeting together. It's just like, hey, how's it going? What do you need? How can I help you? And she's like, how can I support you? And then get the hell out of the way. Like, with most people on the team, obviously, if I needed more hands on, which there are moments where I do, she gives that to me. And so I think, like, really the secret is not a secret at all. It's just like, manage people the way that they want to be managed, treat people the way that they want to be treated kind of a thing. But for me, having managers who, like, took the time to get to know me as a person and see that, like, I live for the ADA girls and I'm very, very competitive. And then like put things in my way that actually motivated me instead of were obstacles, like they were healthy challenges. And so I had a leader who saw leadership potential in me and so he gave me more responsibility which kept me excited about my role. And he allowed me to have the freedom to write my own sequences. Like, he provided us copy. His name's Dan Hawkins. He's amazing. He's over leading a business development team at Circle CI right now. Shout out, Dan. But he like, let me kind of like do my own thing. Whereas if he had told me, zoe, here's the sequence, go, like operate with it, I would have been miserable and I would not have been successful because it just didn't feel like me. It didn't feel authentic. I'm selling a video tool. I have to follow these, like video scripts that someone else wrote. It doesn't sound like me. And when I was able to just like break free of that and go do my own thing, my results shot up. And like, so did the rest of the team. He was like that with everybody of just like, here's a script if you need one. But like, go do what you want to do. And so we were able to kind of forge our own paths. And the top performers on our team did write their own sequences. And we always got feedback and we got coaching and everything like that. But it was very much like that empowerment, like, let me support, let me empower you and then like go forth and do. And those have been the best managers, in my opinion.

Yeah. And I think because it is such an interesting balance. Right. Because at the same time, sometimes that openness or empowerment actually doesn't lead to results. Right. And I want people to listen here too, because you're a top performer also before everyone jumps on this bag when real quick, she understood copywriting. So let's be careful here because that's always been my feedback to people when they ask, like, should SDRs write their own sequences? And my response back always is, have they been trained in copywriting in emotion based language? Because if not, no, because they don't know what they're doing yet. That's not fair. Whereas if they do, then yes, but it has to be measured. That was always. The thing is, like, we used to run Beat KD can't like contests. If your email could beat my email, not only did we make it the new email, but you got like a $500, like bump for that as well. Like, but it had to beat it Wasn't about, you know, being different or the same. It had to be better them. And so now one of the things you talked about there, it's like one of those, like, I don't know, like, cliche things that gets met. You'll get to know the person or find out how they like to be led. How does a leader do that? Like, how does a leader find out how their people like to be led?

You know, I think. I think there's a couple different ways you could do it. Some people are pretty self aware and they'll tell you how they want to be led. But a lot of people, especially in the SCR role, and this is not, I don't want to make too sweeping of a generalization, but like, a lot of SDRs tend to be younger. Like, sometimes it's their first job out of college. You don't know yourself in a professional capacity. Like, I didn't necessarily know when I first started working as an sdr. I was a senior in college, exactly what I needed from a leader. So I actually kind of needed my leader to be smart enough to like, figure it out and kind of tell me what he was seeing in me. About, like, Like, I would watch him and he would watch me. And it was kind of like this dual observation that was happening. And like, I could see him setting up these like, quote unquote obstacles, but really they were healthy challenges that motivated me. Whereas if he gave that to another person on my team who was not motivated in that way, it would have stopped her in her tracks. And so I think, like, he just really paid attention. He listened, he watched us. He was like, in the weeds with us. He was doing a lot of coaching. He would do a lot of side by sides. This was back before the pandemic hit. And like, we could actually like, sit in the same office together those days, back in the days. But it was like, kind of cool. Like, he would literally just throw on a headset and sit next to me while I was making my calls or sending my emails. And so he was just kind of like watching my workflow. And he wouldn't make a lot of comments, but it wasn't like, intense. It wasn't like, oh my God, he's breathing over my shoulder, he's judging me. He was just like, oh, like, why'd you do that? Like, just curious. And so he led with a lot of curiosity. And then he would kind of like, give it back to me and see if it felt like it fit. He'd be like, this is what I think you need. Does that feel like it is true? Like, yeah, I actually think that sounds great. And if he said something, he was like, this is what I think you want. And I was like, no, that sounds terrible. He'd be like, okay. And then he would make a pivot. So I think like, that observational and like active listening, just like honestly paying attention. That sounds like so basic. But there are a lot of managers out there that I know of who've never, like, they don't actively coach their reps, they don't listen to calls, and then they just show up to one on ones and they get pissed about numbers. But it's like he's like, you need, you need to make more calls. I'm like, are you sure I need to make more calls? Or is it that I'm like really messing up my opening line? Like, do I need, like, if you are in the weeds, how are you going to coach the behaviors? Because you aren't. That's not close enough to the data to know where we need to pivot. And I was lucky to have a manager who was really, really educated me on like AB testing. So that, like, back to your copywriting question. Like, I didn't have any formal copywriting training. I just like, was good at talking to people. But I did have somebody teach me about like doing a proper AB test. So I learned how to get better because instead of, oh, here's two emails. Let me see which one does better and why. It was like, okay, let's write an email. And then I'm going to change the subject line and send the email. And send 200 split. 50. 50. Okay, this subject line is performing better. Okay, now I'm going to. It's like getting better opens. Okay, now I'm going to change the cta. Okay, now I'm going to change one thing instead of trying to change everything or reinvent the wheel. And so I think all that to say, like, having a leader who understands how to look at the data, how to like slice and dice it and then how to look at the behavioral things too and make corrections. I don't know if that's been your experience as a leader or as a rep, but that's kind of what I thought.

So.

Yes.

So what I really, really hounded my managers on was I do not want you to be a micromanager, but I do want you to be micro aware. Yeah, I love that you need to know the small things that are happening with your people and with your team so you know where to Focus, Right? So a big one of like my leadership, you know, like taglines at this point is aim small, miss small, go set more meetings. Well, duh, that's not aiming small. Like how, like how does someone get there? Right. And like getting into that to be aware. And you said one of those key words, which is observation, understanding, really good leadership book called the Connector Manager. The data said less than 16% of employees believe their manager understands their day to day. Whoa, 16%.

Terrible stat.

It's a horrible stat, but it's real. And leaders that are listening, I want you to ask, truly ask yourself, how well do you understand their day to day? Especially now that we're remote, you have any idea what that looks like? And it's that observation that I think is so important and understanding the differences. And somewhere else I want to keep going a little bit deeper because you mentioned, like, what motivated you? Because I also think this gets missed in leadership all the time, is we tend to try to motivate people the way we were motivated and wonder why that doesn't land. So like, how did. I mean, this is a two part question. How did you as an individual find out what actually motivated you? And then how did that translate over to like leadership? Like, did you just tell them? Did they ask you? Like, how did it bridge the gap? I want to start with how did you find out what motivates you? Because a lot of people, especially in sales, you ask them what motivates you? What do they say? Money or I wish money motivated people. Leadership would be so easy if money. It would be so easy. It does not. Less than 7% of people are actually money motivated. And it's split about 70, 30. If you're truly money motivated, 70% of those people make a ton of money. 30% of those people go to jail.

That's an interesting stat too. Dang.

Okay, because think about it. If you are motivated by money, you will do anything you can to make money, which also tends to bleed over into illicit activities, because you can make money. So that's there. What motivated you? How did you discover it and then how did you communicate it?

Yeah, so I think like, and this is maybe a cheater's answer because I think it goes back to like, you can kind of tell what your motivators are like looking back before you even start in a work environment. Like, I think as kids we have kind of like inherent motivations. And I was an athlete growing up and I can look back on that time and see that I was motivated by the same things I'm motivated by the Atta Girls. I'm motivated by winning, like, being at the top of the podium, and I'm motivated by recognition in the form of, like, responsibility. So, like, when I was a senior in high school, I was a soccer player. I had gotten Allstate the year before, and my team voted me team captain, and my coaches had to confirm all the team captains, so they actually voted three of us team captains, and our coaches convert confirmed two of us. And so, like, to have my team say, like, zoe is a leader. Zoe's who we want to follow. And my coach be like, all right, you got to step up. This is, like, the responsibility and the title that I'm giving you. Like, that was so. I was so motivated to, like, do right by my team and do right by my coaches and, like, affirm what they saw in me, because I don't want to let people down. I'm such a people pleaser. So I think, like, I can look back on that time and understand that, like, I've always been motivated by the Atta Girls, the responsibility and the winning in and of itself, because I hate losing more than I love winning. Like, the pain of loss is more excruciating to me than the joy of the win. So, like, avoiding loss is definitely, like, a big motivator for me, too. And so I think, like, I knew that inherently a little bit. I didn't realize how much it translated into, like, sales and into my work environment until I started winning. And then I was like, oh, this is cool. And then I was handed responsibility to train a new rep, and I was like, oh, I love this. And so it was kind of like having that self observation, that self awareness. And then I had a leader who never asked me, didn't care what motivated me. He treated everybody the same, and I hated every one on one with him. And I just would get stressed out in our conversations, and he would slack me, and it would, like, give me anxiety. And then I had a leader who was like, zoe, where do you want to be, like, three years from now? How can I help you get there? And, like, that. Those kinds of conversations. And he was curious, and he would ask me, like, what he's like, what would be something that, like, you in your life want? And, like, how can we, you know, set up a goal of, like, if you hit xyz, then you get abc? And so we talked about, like, I really wanted to get a tattoo, like, a specific tattoo. And he was like, all right, like, what if we, like, signed an agreement today and said, if you hit 120% of quota this month, you're going to go get yourself that tattoo. And I think he spiffed me, like 100 bucks to, like, help pay for the tattoo. Like, I can't even remember exactly what it was, but it was like that kind of stuff where he took the time to get to know me as a human being and like, outside of work, what were my motivators and kind of tie it all together because I think that understanding that we are more than just the 40 hours we spend at our desk and that, like, people can be more and you can get more out of your employees if you know them on that personal level, like, I would not be shocked. Like, for you as a leader, how much time in your one on ones or just any meeting with your team do you actually spend talking about work versus just like chatting with them about their lives? Like, I bet you know what your team's up to. I bet you know their partner's names and like their kids and like, what the sports teams, they like. Like, you probably know them as humans more than just where they're at on the board.

And what's interesting, there's a guy. So much we can unpack there too. Because recognition is one that most leaders don't give enough and they only recognize the result. You close the deal, you get recognition versus recognizing the behaviors. And when you start to recognize the behaviors, one, you have way more opportunity to recognize somebody. Because if you're working with an SDR and their goal is to book 10 meetings a month, literally, you are limiting Your recognition to 10 if you only recognize them when they book a meeting. Whereas if you're looking at how they're making their calls, how they're approaching their day to day, how they're communicating a good. Like, you can open up the door to so much more recognition that. But to your point, one of the first things that my managers go through when they get a new rep, it's this intro survey. And a big chunk of that is recognition preferences. And so I'll put you through this real quick, but these are the exact questions that they ask, and the rep has to give an answer. And the key here is you can only pick one. It's either or. All right, so here we go. Money or experiences. So here's 500 bucks. Here's a $500, like, night out on the town.

Ooh. I think at my core, experiences, probably experiences or things.

Here's a $500 bag. Here's a $500 like night out on the town or a trip somewhere.

Experiences still.

Okay. Public recognition or private recognition?

Probably public.

Okay. Recognition amongst your peers. Recognition amongst leadership.

Can I have both?

No, I think leadership title or responsibility? Congratulations. You're now senior, but everything's the same. You're still in your role, but I've added responsibility.

I was a tricky one. I actually think responsibility, but to a point. Like, if I never ever made more money, if I never, ever. If, like, if it gets to a point where it's too lopsided and it's like, here's just a bunch of responsibility and nothing else has changed, like, then I would get sad.

Money or responsibility.

I love money.

Okay, so now what happens with that. Now is I know how to better recognize and motivate Zoe in 90 seconds. Because I can guarantee some of y' all listening, your answers were not the same. You did not have the same answers. And that changes things, right? To know how someone likes to be recognized. And the last one. This was when we were in office, but now it doesn't matter. Physical or non. I'm a hugger. Are you a hugger? Do you like to receive physical recognition or no?

No. I actually hate touch. Like, it's. It's really funny. Now that we're coming back in person, everybody's, like, desperate to, like, give me hugs. And I've really had to, like, almost. It's a gear shift intentionally in my own brain where I'm like, I know other people need and. Or want this, so I will engage in this. But it is like, it was.

It was on the list. Because it's like, not everybody receives recognition that way. And knowing that is important because in that moment, right, someone gets a big deal or something, get their promo, and I want to give them a hug for it. I think that's making them feel good. On the other side, they're dying inside.

Don't touch me, God damn it.

Right? That's a problem. So knowing those things about your people is so, so important, because recognition is different.

So, okay, I'm curious about this one, because I think this even comes before the recognition. Like, almost like a precursor to, like, what motivates you? How do we recognize you? Like, how do you get. How do you get people to, like, feel empowered? How do you empower people? And I think, like, I've been thinking about that a lot lately because I recently went through, like, kind of a tough season just in my personal life, where I was just feeling, like, so, like, down about myself, disorganized, Like, I wasn't capable of anything. Um, there's a lot of reasons why that is the case. But I had a conversation with my manager a few weeks ago, and she was just like, I believe in you, Zoe. I know you're going to be so successful. And that was such an impactful moment for me to have somebody, like, look me in the eyes and mean it and say that they're, like, somebody who I see as successful, who I want to be, like, someday, say that they believe in me. Meant something to me. Now, you know, when my mom is like, I believe in you, Zoe. I'm like, yeah, sure, whatever, mom. Like, it doesn't, like, hit the same. But how do you. And I don't think everybody's gonna be the same in receiving that either. Like, how do you, before anything gets started, kind of like put that spark in people.

And that's where recognition is so important. Because recognition is really the affirmation of belief.

Yeah.

Every time I tell you you're doing a good job, that is a reaffirmation that I believe in you. And that is where I think people and leaders miss all the time, is they recognize the result. They don't recognize the person. And that is something that I teach often in my courses. And everything else is recognition has to have a reason. So if you close a deal and I say, great job, Zoe, closing that deal, that's not recognition. Right. That's recognizing the result versus a great job closing that deal. The way Zoe prepared for the calls, handled that legal objection when it came up. And y' all should have seen the follow up video she sent after the disco call that brought things across. That's what we love to see, Zoe. Way to go. Now that was made up. And how'd that feel?

Yeah, it's great. I was like, yes, I love it.

So the point being is, like, the way that you inspire somebody. Right. Is you have to recognize them as a person and find ways to reaffirm that belief. Because if they. If your people do not believe that you believe in them, it's over. It's completely over.

Have you ever read or heard of David Lieberman? He wrote the book Mind Reader? I think it's pretty new, but scoop it up, though. Okay, so he's like a PhD. He studies, like, human psychology, linguistics, and, like, behavior, basically. He works with the FBI and the CIA and teaches people how to read other people and, like, understand what they really want, what they really think, what their motivators are, etc. And I'm only like, I don't Know, halfway through the book at this point. But one of the most interesting things is in the first two chapters, and he talks about, like, linguistics and something I observed when you were kind of giving me that feedback is he mentions the importance of specificity and your proximity to the language. So we use first person, second person, third person language. When I say, nice hat, Katie, it's like, okay, that feels good. If I say, I love your hat, that's a little bit more impactful because I am now putting myself proximity. Like, the language is closer to the action. So when you use more specific specificity and when you take ownership of the compliment itself, it actually lands harder for people and comes across as more sincere. And so that's something that I've even, like, just in the last couple of weeks observed in myself. Like, yeah, when I am kind of, like, bullshitting somebody, like, I want to say something nice, but maybe I don't totally. I mean, I'll be like, my shoes. As opposed to, like, I love those shoes. Where did you buy them? Like, that's like a different. And obviously, I'm, like, talking about people's, like, clothes and physical appearance. But even when you're complimenting people or giving that recognition, like, you were so specific, you said my name. Like, those are the things that perk up in the back of our head and make us feel like, oh, this person actually means what they're saying.

And people remember that stuff, right? Like, and it is like, the more specific, the better with recognition. Even something as simple as like, I love your shit shoes versus those shoes look good on you. Those shoes are so fashionable. The sparkle on those shoes, girl. Right? Like, get specific with that recognition, right? Because also that belief. And I want to make sure everyone listening doesn't take this the wrong way. Recognition is actually what makes it easier to deliver tough feedback when it has to happen. That belief in someone doesn't mean that you let them slide. That belief in someone doesn't mean that you don't also have the tough conversations. It actually makes it more likely you can have it, right? Because at the end of the day, and I used to say this to my managers, whether it's good or bad, I don't know. But I'll share as you go through it is like, one of the things that should motivate your reps the most is not letting you down. There are times and all of my managers, patient pop, they went through this, that the most painful things that most of them ever went through working for me is when I sat them down and Said I was disappointed. Yeah, that was worse than any comp. Any commission, any threat, any pip. It was like to sit down and go, I'm disappointed because I believe in you so much and because I know how good you can be. That is why I'm so upset that we're not living up to this. Right. And you pull it back to that belief as well. So we kind of got sidetracked here. I want. There's one more key question I wanted to ask here before we start to wrap up is, you know, and I don't know I was putting you on the spot or not, but managing your best versus the rest, because this also happens very often in sales. I know you're not in sales anymore, but you'll get my analogy where the rest of the look at the best and think they should be able to do the same things. The best does. Well, the best is writing her own sequences. Zoe writes her own sequences. Why can't I? How do you navigate how you manage the best versus the rest?

Ooh, interesting. Interesting. I remember being in that seat, too, and I remember it being kind of a weird situation when you are getting recognition and you're getting responsibility and you're getting freedom that other people don't get. And then people talk. And I actually did have a chat. My VP sat me down once, and he was like, and I promise there's a point to this story. He sat me down and he was like, zoe, if I promoted somebody on the team today, who do you think it would be? I was like, oh, well, Donnie, obviously. He's been here a year longer than everybody else, and we like him and, like, he'd be a good team lead or whatever. He's like, okay, if Donnie wasn't here, he's like, yeah, like, that's like the easy, obvious answer. Like, who would it be? And I was like, I don't know. He's like, I know you want to say you. He's like, but really, I think it would be a dog fight between you, this person, and this person. And he's like, here's what you have to do. You have to win over the rest of the team. You have to. You have to have that respect from your team so that it is not, oh, Zoe's getting recognized again. It's. Wow, we're happy for Zoe. Like, how can you be someone who's easy to root for? And that lesson stuck really hard with me because I was probably not easy to root for. I was kind of like, I'm like a. An annoying Winner and a really sore loser, naturally, like, I have to curb that in my person. I was the kid, like, freaking flipping the Monopoly board when my sister won. I was just, like, full of rage, right? And so I had to learn to kind of adjust my. My reactions and my personality. And I remember him being like, when you close a deal or when you book a big meeting or your AE closed a big deal, and that meant, like, big things for my commissions. Check. He's like, you, like, celebrate at your desk. And he's like, don't get me wrong. I'm happy for you. But, like, how do you think it makes the person sitting next to you feel when they're, like, not doing so good? And I never thought about it, and that was such a good lesson for me. So, like, I actually think that a shift happened on the team when me and one other person on the team who both had that kind of, like, trait and we were doing really well, had that conversation with our vp and we adjusted the way that we operated. And it actually, I think, made it more psychologically safe for the rest of the team to feel like they could get to where we were. Because, like, I was actually making it kind of miserable for the people who weren't at the top of the board because I was like, I'm at the fucking top of the board, baby. And, like, that's so shitty. So I think some of it is, like, coaching your best to be team players and to be leaders without the title. And, like, I didn't have that skill, I didn't have that awareness, but somebody, like, coached that into me. And I think it helped my leader then lead the team because there wasn't that delineation. There was more psychological safety. There wasn't that like, oh, it's us versus them, or, like, I'm never going to be at the top of the board. It was like, oh, this is achievable. And Zoe wants to help me. And Zoe, I started, like, sharing all of my. Now, it didn't mean that everybody got the same freedom that I did, but I felt like it was like, it felt more within reach. And then people did start getting that responsibility and they were allowed to do it. And I think, like, that wasn't just because of me. It was because of the way my leader intentionally taught me to be less of a shitty teammate.

There's my favorite word, which is intention. Bar none is my favorite word, because I think intention drives everything that we do. That's just another example of micro awareness, noticing how your actions are impacting other people and how that could impede your ability to grow is an example of micro awareness to go through. Because with my teams and that you could hit them up, you earned flexibility, you earned flexibility, you performed well, you got more and more freedoms. You did not perform well, you got less and less freedoms. You earned the right to have that flexibility. But it was also very clear on like from day one, like, the best are not you. Until you are the best, you cannot be expected to be treated like the best. They are better. And that's where in sales is always so tricky is. Very rarely do salespeople view themselves as not as good as somebody else. They view it as that person has something that they don't. A better territory, better leads, a better relationship with the boss, whatever it is, versus I'm not as good as that person yet. So I need to do more. Right? Because if your emails have a 10% response rate and my email has a 5% response rate, who has to send less emails to get to their goal because you're better at it. And that gets lost in translation oftentimes. And so that's always my recommendation is like, as someone gets better, they earn more flexibility. But also you can talk to some people that have been top performers for me and then like slid, they slide off. Guess what's happening? You're back into a little bit more structure and you earn your way back out of it again. And for some of them it would be like a one month dip. Like, ah, damn it. Right? It's like, no, you're back to some cold calling blocks. You're back to a certain level of activity because you fell off. Get back to your perch and stay there. Like, I don't want you down here. Get back to your perch.

I don't want. You belong down there. You don't belong here.

You're better than this. Remind me of that.

I do think like sales. Rachel May wrote about this recently. Just like sales is the great equalizer, you know, like we, we are truly, it's a meritocracy. We are measured on our performance. But I think people get lost in the weeds of like, inputs versus outcomes. And they're like, oh, well, I sent three times as many emails. Why does Zoe get to, you know, sign off early for the day? It's like, well, Zoe hit quota two weeks into the month. So like she, she can coast a little bit. Like, you know, and like people, people kind of like, don't. I don't know, like we, I don't know about you, but we Grew up in the era of participation trophies, or you got. You got credit just for showing up and, like, that's not the way that the world works.

I was a little bit free. I was a little pre. Yeah, a little free. So I was not given participation trophies. And if I. My father would have thrown that shit away so fast.

It used to annoy me. I remember, like, at my soccer or whatever, like, I won, you know, like, league MVP one year, and everybody else got, like, a most inspirational, like, but, like, best effort bullshit. And I was just like, why is everybody at the edge? Like, which I want people to feel recognized. Like, it's not that I want to take away from other people. Like, it doesn't really hurt me for that, but, like, if somebody handed me a, like, nice job trophy, I would. I would be so upset. I would be like, get this away from me.

You are more politically correct than I am. You're not taking anything away if they shouldn't have got it in the first place.

That's true.

You earn recognition, right? Like, the idea of being recognized for just participating or just doing your job or just showing up. Right. Okay, fine. But it's. It's not the same recognition, right? You get less of it or a different level of it, and that's fine. But anyway, I could go on that for hours, and I won't. But I'm gonna wrap up with this, Zoe, because this has been great, but the name of this podcast is Live Better Sell Better. This weird idea that if we lived better, if we took better care of ourselves, if we had more energy, joy, fulfillment in life, that the sales would also improve. What would your Live better advice be for people listening?

Okay, can I precurse my advice with a personal question?

You are a grown woman. You can do whatever you want.

When was the last time you cried?

When's the last time I cried? April 2020.

Okay. Yeah. Just because everything was shit.

I had just let go of 68% of my team.

Oh, that is gutting. Yeah.

Almost 100 people let go 74 people in one day because of COVID and restructuring. April of 2020. That was. That was the last time.

Yeah. That would be brutal. I think, like, well, for me, it was last night on the floor of the shower just because I was tired. Not for any particular reason. Well, I'm not like, I. I actually don't cry as much as I probably should. I'm like a three times a year crier. And for some reason, last night was the night. But that. My. My advice to people is Just like let yourself like, feel. And I, I mostly kind of lean into, like have a therapist. Like mental health and sales is so important. Like your, your health is your whatever, health is wealth. Like, and I used to think that was like such a quippy term until I got really sick, you know, two years ago and some autoimmune stuff came up and my mental health was not good. And it was just like, you have nothing if you don't have that. And your, your work is not your worth. So like invest as much as like, I love the recognition, I love being at the top board. I love sales. Like, I love my job, I love my career. But at the end of the day, if I was in a horrible accident, couldn't work anymore, I would need a reason to live. And so like, you've defined that in yourself. And I think like taking care of your mental health and your physical well being should be at the top of your priority list. So therapy is like my number one piece of advice for probably anyone. You don't have to do it forever. But I would be hard pressed to find a person who's like, I will never need therapy in my whole life. Like, we're all super, super messed up in our own ways. Nobody's perfect. We're all very human. And it's nice to have a professional and like an objective third party speak truth into your life when you're feeling a little lost.

I love it. I love it. I mean, shit, I'm working on a little something, something on the side right now, trying to build out like this billions idea for salespeople of how can we get salespeople for performance coaches and mindset coaches to help them through all this? Because I do think in sales, mental health is starting to come up more, which is good. But it's being talked about still not being done as much as I think people think it is. Whereas what I'm trying to do is can I trojan horse it through mental performance through peak mental performance. Right. Which you have to work with a cognitive behavioral therapist in order to achieve. And so I think we can flip that narrative because it does. Like people are talking about it, but it is still not. People aren't doing enough of it. So I'm with you there. Like I, I work with a therapist, I work with a coach. Like I'm doing my gratitudes, my meditations, like all that I can to try to keep this thing up here on, on, on straight. And so, so Zoe, this was phenomenal. Worth the wait. We won't get into that Right now. Where can people find more of you? Where are you putting out content? Where can they get a little bit more Zoe in their life?

I don't know that you want a little more Zoe in your life, but if for some reason you do. I mean, LinkedIn is probably my primary channel. Zoe Hart, Long story, but yeah, that's also my name. And then I started on Twitter a couple months ago, and it's really just like a constant stream of consciousness. But I'm working on something right now. Bit of a. Bit of a newsletter about kind of like the mental health and the professional landscape. So you can keep it, keep an eye out for that. If you've ever liked my content on LinkedIn, I try and keep it, you know, somewhat related to business, and obviously the newsletter will as well. But maybe, maybe we'll get a little bit more into some storytelling in that. Okay.

Is there a link to that that people can go to to join?

Not yet. You'll just have to, you know, follow, unfortunately, for an undisclosed period of time. And eventually it will be out and about.

Well, when it's out, shoot it to me so I can shoot it out to the listeners and get it in the show notes and all that. But, Zoe, thank you so much for your time, energy, everything today. Really appreciate that was fun.