Power of Authenticity: Lessons for the Woman in Leadership with Katy McFee

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What up, everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live.

Better Sell Better podcast.

This is your host, Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And today we are going to talk about a topic that is very, very important to me as a leader and as an individual that think is talked about enough, which is women in leadership. But not just women in leadership. How to thrive as a woman in leadership. Because unfortunately, if we are being honest, the rules are a little bit different. How things are communicated, how things are rolled out, what it's like to be the only. How do you thrive in an environment. We talk a lot about how to get in, but I don't think we talk enough about how to thrive. Which is why I'm so excited to have Katie McPhee on the show with me today because she is someone who not only has thrived as a woman in leadership, VP of sales, EVP of sales at big companies, massive successes, but now she's helping other women also thrive in leadership roles. So we are going to dive deep on this today. Katie, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here.

This is going to be a good one. And so where I want to start with is just looking at your background and is your story. At what point did you decide, okay, now it's time to help others. You were, you were cruising, right? VP evp. Right. Getting ready made for that C in front of the name and then this hard pivot to then helping others. So walk me through that pivot. Walk me through that decision making.

Yeah, it's interesting. So the first sales job I ever had, I knew I wanted to be a VP sales one day and I looked at my VP sales, who was, who was a man. Like, he was, he was, he was like a typical, like alpha male but great guy. And I was like, oh, I want to be like you when I grow up. So I spent like a lot of my career, trying to, you know, carve that path for myself. But I did struggle a lot along the way. Like, it was not a graceful rise. And so. And so I thought a lot. Like, I spent a lot of time. I joke that I thought about this more than any person on the planet, just about, like, what. What allows some people to break through to leadership and to. And to really thrive there, while others never cross that chasm. And so once I became an evp, it's interesting because I had a great job, I had an awesome boss. Like, our CEO was a great human. I felt very valued, it was lucrative. But I started to realize that I felt unaligned. Like, I just didn't feel that I was doing enough in the world, which maybe sounds kind of silly, maybe a little. It was my midlife crisis, but. And so I started to take stock of what did I really love doing? Like, you know, all of the things that you do as a senior leader, what were the things that really, like, got me to jump out of bed in the morning and what were the things that really drained my energy? And I realized that the mentor calls that I was doing for free were actually my favorite part of the day because I was mentoring a few women, you know, outside of my company and within. And so this was a really interesting realization for me because I was like, wow, there's all this. This is this job that I worked to get for many years. And really the thing that makes me most excited is the idea of working with women and helping women. So that was that spark that initiated months of thinking and deliberating and deciding to make this change.

I love that because it is. It's in theme of just like that pain, attention, that self awareness. What lights me up, right. Where do I get the most joy for? I work with a coach and actually on my desk here, have a start and stop doing list. Like, these are things I want to start. But like, more importantly, what are the things you want to stop doing? What are the things that just drain you day to day? Can you find a way to stop doing those things? And so it's kind of keep on this path. Right. So what do you think led to your ability to break in first? Let's go there first of like, okay, so you're coming up in sales. You're like, I want to be a vp. And you did it how? What are some of the things that you think you did, whether differently or more of or more strategically that allowed you to get to that level?

Yeah. So for each person, it's going to be a little bit different. I kind of think of what was holding me back. So there was a few things that were holding me back because I was trying to get there. Like I was asking to be a vp, you know, weekly. So the things that were holding me back, first, I had some limiting beliefs holding me back, which were holding me back from really showing up as the best version of myself, I guess is the best way to put it. I think I was just so afraid of not being like, you know, these other guys on the team that I was reluctant to just bring my sort of full, authentic self to work. When you do that, I think you're really. You're not able to really shine. The second thing that was holding me back was. Was a perception issue. And this is what I work with lots of clients on. I was not showing up as. As a senior leader. And I realize that now in retrospect, I didn't realize it at the time, but simple, you know, relatively simple things like the way I framed ideas or the way I presented strategy to. To. To my boss was just. Was not creating that perception in him and the rest of the leadership that I should be a VP or I should be an evp. And the third thing was I think I spent too much time focused on my weaknesses and not just leaning into my strengths. And I remember my boss even saying to me, like, what do you think's better to focus on your. To, you know, build your weaknesses or to focus on your strengths? And at the time, I was like, I can't. I can't not grow these areas where I'm weak. And in retrospect, that was probably the wrong. I probably spent, like, so much time and effort focused on that when what really allowed me to, like, you know, hit the gas as a senior leader was when I was able to hire.

Yes.

Compliment my skills so that I could do what I was really good at. And then I had, like, a right hand who was doing the stuff that maybe I wasn't as good at.

Yeah. And I love that call out because it's the truth. Right. And you mentioned two things in here is that it was very subtle, but one of the first things you said is that you were asking. You were asking for that role. And they have studied this, they've gone into this. That minority and women tend to ask for it less. Right. I mentor quite a few women in the space, too. And what I hear more often than not from them than my male mentees is I'm just gonna let the numbers speak for Themselves. And I always gonna be like, so numbers don't talk. You need to speak for yourself. You need to ask for what it is that you want. And so I wanted to call that out as one piece of this is making sure that you ask. If this is something that you want, you have to ask for it. You have to ask for that feedback. You have to ask for that path and to go through it. And then now let's talk about strengths and weak. I agree there too. Focusing on the strengths get you further. How did you identify? Like, how did, like, a lot of the theme here is around, like, self awareness, which I'm loving. How did you identify, like, what your strengths were? Like, those kind of unique, you know, areas of genius. Walk me through that a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, so I probably have two sort of superpowers, like, things I'm really good at. The first one is the people side. And I always. I was. That was something that I've always known was a strength of mine. And people have told me this for a long time. That's why I was good at sales. And my. My boss at the time when I was trying to get through to BP and I wasn't progressing, would say, you're great with people, but you're not strategic. And I was like, what does that mean? I'd be googling, like, what is strategic? Like, reasonably intelligent person. I'm educated. But I was like, I don't understand what this person wants of me. I'm, like, reading books. And it turned out, and I only really realized this as I started to get access sort of to more resources. So I'll give an example. When I. When I moved to my next company, I was able to hire a director of sales ops who was able to get me a lot of useful data. And when I started to dig in, I realized I'm actually really good at, like, connecting the dots and finding trends and figuring out patterns and understanding how to leverage those to build a winning strategy. But in my previous role, I didn't really have access to that. And so there was, like, this hidden superpower that I wasn't able to tap into because I didn't have the resources, I didn't have the people. And so it seemed like I just wasn't that good at this sort of analysis, strategic piece. But in fact, as soon as I had something to work with, it was actually probably one of my. My biggest strengths. So part of it, I think, does, you know, doesn't matter where you are, but, you know, you hit it on the head when you just talked about being introspective. I think a lot of us just go through life and sort of see what happens and we don't spend a lot of time thinking about stuff like what am I really good at? You know, how do I leverage that? And perhaps had I just gone straight up to vp, maybe I never would have done that. True. My struggle was kind of a blessing in a way because it forced me to really think about, you know, what does it take to get to this level? Where am I falling down? How do I, you know, how do I compliment that or supplement that? And, and yeah, had I had a really easy journey to the top, I might have never taken the time to do that.

That's true. And I love there's little things that you're doing in this conversation I want to come back and, and highlight for people because you did something else that a lot of just people in general, not just women, not just minorities don't do. Is you opened up with these are things I'm good at and being okay saying that. So often we are taught, you know, be, be humble, don't be both. Whatever else, it is okay to say I'm good at this, this is something I am good at. And not downplaying, not saying, look, I'm all right or you know, it's something that I do well. Like I want you all to rewind back and listen to how she feel, like I'm good at this. Like I know I'm good at this. And that is another place that I think is very important in leadership as you continue to move up is like that self belief has to be there before you can get other people to believe in you. Like if you don't believe you're good at it and know it like, yes, you can be good at something and still need to improve. Those are completely different things. But just I love that because I wish more people as they're trying to get into leadership and then once they're there like, and they know it and.

They believe it, it's a tough thing because women face this thing called the likability backlash. I don't know if you've heard this before, but essentially when women advocate for themselves or negotiate for a higher salary, we are seen as less likable. And so we. And so like there's this intuitive perception that your brain is like, don't go there, use qualifiers or off in your speech or whatever it might be. And so it's like this double edged sword. Whereas if you don't Advocate for yourself. And you don't, you're not, you're not willing to tell people what you're good at. That does not serve you. But at the same time you have to deal with this weird psychological phenomenon called the likability backlash, where, you know, as a woman, people expect you to be collaborative and to be nurturing and not to put yourself first. And so I talk to women about this a lot. To me, it's really the way you frame things that helps you get around that. So if you do, because it is important to advocate for yourself, if you don't do it, chances are no one else is going to. And so finding a way to say that and still have people like you, I guess, which maybe shouldn't matter, but it does, right? Especially if someone's, if you want someone to promote you, then it matters. So it's a difficult topic.

So can you keep going down that? Is there a way to do that? How do you frame it? Because there's walking the line of likability. How do you suggest that? So when you talk about asking for the role or asking for a raise, how do you try to frame that language in a way where it's clear what you're asking for? The confidence is there, but you're walking that line in terms of perception. Like, how do you do that?

Yeah. So oftentimes I recommend framing things using more objective facts than subjective language. So for example, hey, you know, I really want a raise because, you know, everyone else is making more money than me and I feel like I'm not valued, that type of ask is generally not going to go over well. Whereas if you can say, hey, I've done some research, I love this role. I love being able to help other people and contribute to the company. But I do see that based on the numbers, I'm underpaid. And I've also looked at some peer to peer salary review and it looks like I'm under the bar. So I'd love to see how we can correct this. So it's like collaborative language around working with somebody to fix a problem versus making it really personal.

No, I like that framing there. Because then also, then too, especially when the language of like, I don't feel valued comes in is when that starts to feel like an attack to the person you're talking to, even though that's not the point of it. It's like, well, no, but I do value. And now it's an argument about whether you are valued, not a conversation about whether or not you should be Making more. And it distracts where the conversation is going to goes like, no, you are valued, though. What do you mean? It's like, no, no, this is about the pay. And now it turned into something different. And so that's also like a good call out to make there. And so. All right, so let's keep making this way. We started with the self awareness. Then we got to making sure you're asking with it, focusing on your strengths, getting rid of beliefs. Right. Limiting beliefs. Now you're there. Right. And you've already been kind of talking about some of the differences of, you know, being a woman in a leadership position. So what are some of the things that you coach your clients on and then you saw in your career, like, this is what allowed you to thrive because there's getting to it and then there's thriving. You'd mentioned that, like, a little bit earlier in the conversation, say, all right, you get there. Doesn't mean you thrive in it. Right. So now let's talk about how do you thrive as a woman in leadership?

Yeah. I'd say one of the biggest things that I learned was really to just lean into, like, my authentic self, because I think there was a belief it wasn't. It was. It was more subconscious, but this idea that I had to act like the guys in the room in order to. To be welcome. And I found that, like, my biggest asset or one of my biggest assets was the fact that I was different. I had a different perspective, I had a different lived experience. And so when I really shared that and led with that even, it was well received and appreciated. So it's like, now you've got your seat at the table, you're not fighting for it anymore. So own it. Really own your seat at the table. And that could look like advocating for other women at the company. I did that a lot. And I have to say, generally speaking, the. The men in the room with me appreciated that because they had never. Oftentimes people are good people. They want to be good leaders. They want to be inclusive. They've just never thought of something that way. They've never thought about the fact that, oh, we're going to do after. After work, drinks. Guess what? Half the staff or a quarter of the staff has young kids at home. They need to be home for dinner. And so this is. This is actually not including them or, you know, so and so is coming back from mat leave. We don't have anywhere for her to pump at the office. So let's think about that. Right? Let's. Let's make this comfortable for this person. So that was a big one. Was really just, like, owning who I was and the experience that I lived and not being, like, I guess, ashamed of it, because initially, again, it's so crazy to think about, but I remember being very pregnant and going to a conference and thinking, like, everyone's going to know I'm pregnant. But, like, it's okay to have children.

Yeah, it is.

It's wonderful, in fact. And so I really had to, like, that was something I had to get over and. And really be like, no, I'm just. This is who I am. I'm gonna own this for a reason. So. So, I mean, that I would say, that's a big one. Another one would. Would be continuing to think about the framing piece. This is a big one, I would say, with people in general, but especially with women. And it's because we are oftentimes conditioned to soften our language, to use qualifiers when we speak, or even to frame an idea as a question.

Thank you. I was hoping you were going to get to this, because this happens so much. Yes. Keep going.

And so this is something that I think is really important at every level. So whether you're trying to get to the leadership level or you're there and you want to show up as a leader, people respect and listen to the way that you frame your ideas is super important. And so part of that comes down to just being well prepared. I work with lots of women on this. We will prep for these important meetings, and I'll. The first step is just being, like, very well prepared in terms of your material. We work on how the material is presented. So I don't know if you've heard of the Minto Pyramid, but this is funny because I just learned about this framework recently. The idea is, start with the answer yes, and then work down from there. And I've been telling people for years, start with the punchline, don't work up to it. And then I realized, oh, a consultant at McKinsey had made this into, like, a really useful picture. So that's a key element, which a lot of women I see do the opposite. If you think about it, when you're talking to your buddy, you're telling a story, you're like, yeah. So I was walking down the street the other day, and then I, like, I was going to the store, and then I saw Joe, and Joe, like, had this dog with him, and I was like, where did the dog come from? And then at the end, it's like, he's Getting married, you know, or whatever. And so you work to this punchline, but when you do that in business, it's not well received.

So I have a KD operating guide. So I legit have like the unofficial guide of working with kd, right? And I share it with my managers, my teams, my cross functional partners of like, this is, you know, how I communicate, how I prefer to be communicated with, like, all this. And the very first bullet point under how to communicate with me, direct and straightforward. I can struggle staying patient if the story or example is rambling. I'm all for a good journey or story, but I like things to get to the point. I may ask you to start with the end so I know the middle is worth listening to. That's the very first bullet point on my operating. So it's like, okay, the close rate's 13%. Now talk to me about the why. I don't know if I should be listening or not. If so, I love that call. What's. What was the name of this pyramid?

The Minto Pyramid. And so the interesting thing is most people, and especially leaders, like to be communicated with this way. However, we're conditioned to speak the opposite way. Right. And so it's just the idea. We talked about intentionality already. It's. It all goes back to intentionality with me. So it's being intentional about the way you are presenting this data or this strategy or whatever it might be. So that you start with the punchline, yes, then your major supporting facts, and then all those details. So that's the second thing, which is just the framing piece. And then the third, as I mentioned, is this idea using qualifiers, speaking, softening your language, posing things as a question. I see people do this all the time. I see, especially women do it, where I think it's kind of a fear of coming off too strong a qualifier. Could be. Well, I'm not exactly an expert in this, but I think that blah, blah, blah, right? Or it could be, you know, what would you think if we did something like this? And in fact, it's like this person feels very strongly about this idea. They've thought through, you know, all of the facts. And yet when they present it, it sounds like, you know, here's an idea, give or take, you know, take it or leave it. And that often just won't get the response that you want.

Oh, like you are. You might as well have been sitting like third wheel at a dinner I had with one of my mentees a couple months ago. And this is exactly what came up and What I asked her is like, are you stating or suggesting? Because a lot of this sounds like you're suggesting. I think we should. That is not. You are the VP now. The VP has to decide, not suggest. So if you're suggesting, what that's creating now is they have to keep giving the stamp of approval on your decisions. And now it feels like it was their decision, not yours. And so it's like, there's places to suggest and ask for feedback, but there's other times to state, this is what we're doing, this is how we're going to move forward versus suggesting, right? Those. The word that keep coming up there right when you're giving the qualifiers is thinking, I think we should. I think this is how it should work. What do you think about this versus I've done the research. I know what the issue is. Here's what we're going to do. Any feedback on it? That's a totally different way of. This is how we're going to do it. Any feedback on it. And so I want to take one step back here. I think this is important because, you know, you were talking about, you know, learning about yourself and being your authentic self. And like, the phrase was like, you know, so eventually I just had to get over it. Were there steps you took to get over. Were there steps you took to lean into the authentic self? Right. Because that's a topic I think is incredibly important and it gets written about, right? Just be yourself. And people are like, yeah, but then they go, but how? Like, so, like, what steps did you go to? To like, hey, like, no, like one. Who you are authentically is a whole different question. Like, how do you know what your authentic self is? But, like, what steps did you take to really start to own that? To. To bring that up and to lean into that a little bit more?

So some of it was more symbolic for. So, like, how maybe I would dress at work, so old Katie would have still dressed, you know, more conservatively, kind of business casual. Like, maybe I'd wear jeans, but I would. I would always dress, dress up a little bit. Even though at home I'm like, I'm a ripped jeans girl all the way. Like, that is my whole life. I've been made fun of it my whole life. But, like, that's what I like. That's like the style I like. And so some of it was. That was like little stuff like that. Like just these like, little symbolic things. When I felt like I was dressed as myself and I was, I would act more like myself. Another one for me was not holding back, I guess. Right. So two things, really. One is, you know, I've got lots of opinions, and I think that's a good thing about me. But I used to think that was maybe a weakness or something that I had to hold back a little bit. And it was likely because when I looked around the table, I worked with a lot of. A lot of men that were older than me on the leadership team, and. And they were also introverted, pretty. I think they were all introverts except me. And so if you think about it, when I was looking at my example, it did not look like me. I was always too, like, bubbly and loud and too much in a way. And so that was. Part of it, was just being okay with that. And the other thing is, at heart, I'm a big believer in just, like, kindness and, like, I love everyone. I want to help everyone. Like, a little bit of, like, a hippie inside. And that was another thing that in business, I was kind of, I guess, embarrassed about where I thought, you know, you have to be straight and professional, and there's no emotion in this. And. And so I think I also held that back a little bit. And then, you know, when I really started to be like, screw this. Part of it was I just. I started to get older and think, forget it. I am who I am, and I want to be this person. So that was definitely an element of it, which is why I love to work with women, ideally to do this sooner in their lives. But, you know, I thought, this is who I am. And if. If people don't like it, well, you know, that's too bad. I'm not hurting anybody. And so I just leaned into all of those aspects of who I. Who I really was. And, you know, to my pleasant surprise, people liked it. Right. People were okay with it more than okay with it.

So it's. It's crazy how being authentic seems to be so rare now that people will thank you for it.

Yes.

Like, half of the feedback I get from when I'm on stage and I'm presenting half of the feedback I get from people's. Thank you for being real.

Yeah.

Thank you for being you. And it's like, when did that become such a rarity that someone would literally thank you for being you? Not the content, not the fact that I taught you how to maybe close more revenue. It's like, thanks for keeping it real. And you're like, you're welcome.

Yes. That's the number one thing I have received in terms of messages on LinkedIn. The things that I'm thankful consistently are being vulnerable and authentic. And the interesting thing is anybody can be that. It doesn't require. There's no skill.

It is. It's crazy to me around that, but it is. It's just something. Again, you've mentioned it a couple times. Like, you know, working conditioned to. We're taught to. We're told to talk a certain way, be a certain way. And it's just. I can't remember where I read it, but it was like, everyone is faking it for everyone else. Like, no one is being themselves because they're trying to impress someone else who is not being themselves because they're trying to impress someone else who's not being them. Like, no one's actually being themselves. So who are you trying to impress? Right? And I was like, I love the concept there. So I want to take a hard pivot here real quick because as we start to wrap up around this topic is how do you know if it's the environment or you? Because I think this is important to address as well. You're into a leadership role or you're not getting the role that you want. How do you separate whether it's okay, maybe I'm not doing the thing, like, maybe I'm not being my authentic self.