A conversational interview where Katy McFee describes how she reached VP-level sales leadership by overcoming limiting beliefs, addressing perception gaps (not appearing as a senior leader), and shifting focus from fixing weaknesses to doubling down on strengths. Key tactics she names: ask explicitly for the role/feedback, hire complementary talent (e.g., sales ops leader) to cover weaker areas, clearly state and own your strengths (people skills and—when resourced—strategic pattern-finding), and use careful framing to avoid the gendered "likability backlash" when self-advocating.
Chapters
When women advocate for themselves or negotiate for a higher salary, we are seen as less likable. There's this intuitive perception that your brain is like, don't go there, use qualifiers or soften your speech or whatever it might be. And so it's like this double edged sword. Whereas if you don't advocate for yourself, you're not willing to tell people what you're good at, that does not serve you.
What do you think led to your ability to break in first? Let's go there first. So like, okay, so you're coming up in sales, you're like, I want to be a vp. And you did it how? What are some of the things that you think you did, whether differently or more of or more strategically that allowed you to get to that level?
Yeah. So for each person it's going to be a little bit different. I kind of think of, you know, what was holding me back. So there was a few things that, that were holding me back because I was trying to get there like I was asking to be a vp, you know, weekly. So the things that were holding me back first I had some limiting beliefs holding me back, which were holding me back from really showing up as the best version of myself, I guess is the best way to put it. I think I was just so afraid of not being like these other guys on the team that I was reluctant to just bring my sort of full, authentic self to work. When you do that, I think you're not able to really shine. The second thing that was holding me back was, was a perception issue. And this is what I work with lots of clients on. I was not showing up as, as a senior leader. And I realize that now in retrospect, I didn't realize it at the time, but simple, you know, relatively simple things like the way I framed ideas or the way I presented strategy to, to, to. My boss was just, was not creating that perception in him and the rest of the leadership that I should be a VP or I should be an evp. And the third thing was I think I spent too much time focused on my weaknesses and not just leaning into my strengths. And I remember my boss even saying to me, like, what do you think's better to focus on your. To. To, you know, build your weaknesses or to focus on your strengths. And at the time I was like, I can't, I can't not, you know, grow these areas where I'm weak. And in retrospect, that was probably the wrong. I probably spent like so much time and effort focused on that. When what really allowed me to, like, you know, hit the gas as a senior leader was when I was able to hire, compliment my skills so that I could do what I was really good at. And then I had, like, a right hand who was doing the stuff that maybe I wasn't as good at.
Yeah. And I love that call out because it's the truth. Right. And you mentioned two things in here is that it was very subtle, but one of the first things you said is that you were asking. You were asking for that role. And they have studied this, they've gone into this, that minority and women tend to ask for it less. Right. I mentor quite a few women in the space too. And what I hear more often than not from them than my male mentees is I'm just gonna let the numbers speak for themselves. And I always gonna be like, so numbers don't talk. You need to speak for yourself. You need to ask for what it is that you want. And so I wanted to call is one piece of this is making sure that you ask if this is something that you want, you have to ask for it. You have to ask for that feedback. You have to ask for that path and to go through it. And then now let's talk about strengths and weaknesses, because I agree there too. Focusing on the strengths get you further. How did you identify? Like, how did, like, a lot of the theme here is around, like, self awareness, which I'm loving. How did you identify, like, what your strengths were? Like, those kind of unique, you know, areas of genius. Walk me through that a little bit.
Yeah. I mean, so I probably have two sort of superpowers, like, things I'm really good at. The first one is the people side. And that was something that I've always known was a strength of mine. And people have told me this for a long time. That's why I was good at sales. And my boss at the time when I was trying to get through to BP and I wasn't progressing, would say, you're great with people, but you're not strategic. And I was like, what does that mean? I'd be googling what is strategic? Reasonably intelligent person. I'm educated. But I was like, I don't understand what this person wants of me. I'm reading books. And it turned out, and I only really realized this as I started to get access to more resources. So I'll give an example. When I moved to my next company, I was able to hire a director of sales ops who was able to get me a lot of useful data and When I started to dig in, I realized I'm actually really good at connecting the dots and finding trends and figuring out patterns and understanding how to leverage those to build a winning strategy. But in my previous role, I didn't really have access to that. And so there was like this hidden superpower that I wasn't able to tap into because I didn't have the resources, I didn't have the people. And so it seemed like I just wasn't that good at this sort of analysis, strategic piece. But in fact, as soon as I had something to work with, it was actually probably one of my biggest strengths. So part of it I think does, you know, doesn't matter where you are, but, you know, you, you hit it on the head when you just talked about being introspective. I think a lot of us just go through life and, and sort of see what happens and we don't spend a lot of time thinking about, about stuff like, what am I really good at? You know, how do I leverage that? And perhaps had I just gone straight up to vp, maybe I never would have done that. It's true, right? Like. Like my struggle was kind of a blessing in a way because it forced me to really think about, you know, what does it take to get to this level? Where am I falling down? How do I, you know, how do I complement that or supplement that? And yeah, had I had a really easy journey to the top, I might have never taken the time to do that.
That's true. And I love there's little things that you're doing in this conversation I want to come back and highlight for people because you did something else that a lot of just people in general, not just women, not just minorities don't do is you opened up with these are things I'm good at and being okay saying that. So often we are taught, you know, be, be humble, don't be both. Whatever else, it is okay to say, I'm good at this, this is something I am good at. And not downplaying, not saying I'm all right or, you know, something that I do well. Like, I want you all to rewind back and listen to how she feel. Like I'm good at this. Like I know I'm good at this. And that is another place that I think is very important in leadership as you continue to move up is like that self belief has to there before you can get other people to believe in you. Like if you don't believe you're good at it and know it. Like, yes, you can be good at something and still need to improve. Those are completely different things. But just I love that because I wish more people as they're trying to get into leadership and then once they're there like I am, and they know.
It and they believe it, it's a tough thing because women face this thing called the likability backlash. I don't know if you've heard this before, but essentially when women advocate for themselves or negotiate for a higher salary, we are seen as less likable. And so there's this intuitive perception that your brain is like, don't go there, use qualifiers or soften your speech or whatever it might be. And so it's like this double edged sword. Whereas if you don't advocate for yourself and you don't, you're not, you're not willing to tell people what you're good at. That does not serve you. But at the same time you have to deal with this weird, you know, psychological phenomenon called the likability backlash, where, you know, as a woman, people expect you to be collaborative and to be nurturing and not to put yourself first. And so I talk to women about this a lot. To me, it's really the way you frame things that helps you get around that. So, you know, if you do, because it is important to advocate for yourself, if you don't do it, chances are no one else is going to. And so finding a way to say that and still have people like you, I guess, which maybe shouldn't matter, but it does, right? Especially if someone's, if you want someone to promote you, then it matters. So it's a difficult topic.
