What It Takes to Have Great Leadership Training with Stephanie Taiwo

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Welcome to the live Better Sell Better podcast with your host Kevin Dorsey of Inside Sales Excellence, the number one Patreon group and YouTube channel for tech sellers and tech sales leaders where we dive in deep for tactical advice on how to book more meetings, close more deals faster and lead sales teams to success. But we don't stop there. We also focus on the person in salesperson. We talk about about mindset goals, time management and so much more. So thank you for listening and if you're interested, head on over to patreon.com InsideSalesExcellence now with that, grab a notepad, get ready and let's dive into the good stuff. What up everybody? Welcome to another episode of the live Better Sell Better podcast. This is your host Kevin Dorsey, AKA kd. And today we are talking about, truthfully one of the topics that is nearest and dearest to my heart right now, which is leadership development.

Development.

It's actually mind blowing to me how companies will invest in training their salespeople. They will invest in all the tech stacks, all the tools, all the everything. But they do not invest in developing their leaders.

Right.

If you especially in technology. None of us went to school for leadership. There was no run a 1 on 1314 or how to have tough conversations 212 in college and high school. We are all out here learning as we go. Which is a huge mistake because one great manager can pay for themselves 20x but also one bad manager can completely destroy a team. And that is why I'm so excited to have Stephanie Tywell on the show with me today. She is a manager at Remote in Germany right now. But the beauty of this is not only she doing this but but she's helping develop other leaders to get into the position and succeed faster at a whole different level than if they hadn't. So I'm excited to dive in. Stephanie, welcome to the show.

Kd. I'm so happy to be here. Let's get stuck in. There are too many bad managers in the world.

There are. There are way too many bad managers. But I blame the VPs first. Now there are plenty bad managers that it is their fault. But I blame the VPs and the companies first because they were never taught. Right? So let's talk about this a little bit. Right? You think about a lot of bad managers. What do you think are some of the most common mistakes managers are making that make them fall into that bad bucket?

So from what I've seen, it's just this typical, hey, I'm the manager. I, I have all the Answers, I am always right. You all need to listen to me. And that's it. No room for negotiation, no room for openness, to actually listen to your team and to learn from each other, which is what a good team culture should be. I think it's that mindset. It's, hey, I'm in charge, you do what I say, end of story. And unfortunately, it still persists.

And why do you think that persists? Because if you were to sit down with any, like, manager, like, you know, you meet up at a bar and you go, hey. And you say all of those things and go, is that a good manager? I feel like most would be like, no, that's awful. But then they still go and do it. So, like, where do you think the disconnect lies then?

To be honest, I see two things. I see a lack of leadership coaching. So there's nobody who's actually holding them accountable for these actions that are really destructive. But a second thing, unfortunately, is the ego of the said manager. The ego is a huge barrier to any personal or self development in your career.

Right, okay. All right, we're gonna unpack that in a little bit here because now as we start to go through it, I am a huge believer in role fit. Right? Where there's certain roles that are better for people than for others. And I actually think there's a lot of people in management where management is not actually the right fit for them. Right. Like, I believe I am, you know, relatively talented. I'm a very hard worker. I have somewhat okay, levels of intelligence. But put me as an engineer, that's just not the right fit for me. Like, I could probably do it, but it's not the right fit. So let's start from kind of the beginning here. How do I know if management is the right fit for me? What types of questions should I be asking myself if I'm considering to get into management? What sort of thing should I be asking myself to make sure it's the right fit? Because if it's not the right fit, none of this matters.

Oh, couldn't agree more. And yeah, I actually wanted to say this to your audience. Not all of you listening. Would be a right fit for a leadership role. It's a skill just like any other skill, just like learning how to do sales, anything at all. It's a skill that must be honed. And some of the things you must start off with, and I talk about this in my course, is honest self reflection. So get to know your personality type. Get to know how introverted you are how extroverted you are, what are your intrinsic motivators in life and what are your values? It must tie back to that. So for myself, five years ago, when I jump started my leadership career straight after being an AE at SAP, I sat down, I was like, right, what is it that drives me? What is it that actually makes me tick? It's not just closing deals. I'm doing that. Something is missing, something is not being fulfilled. So then I realized I am extremely driven to help others. And for me to share something that I learned and then to see someone else apply that and to see them improve, that is what is my biggest intrinsic motivator. So that's step one, be honest with yourself. A huge misconception. I see especially in sales AES who want to be managers, they think that's the ultimate goal and then you'll earn the most, you'll be comfortable. And that's not the case. As a sales leader, you typically earn less than your top performer. So that cannot be a motivator. Yeah, that's. As soon as I hear that, I'm like, okay, that's not really the right fit for leadership.

It's so true. I asked three very pointed questions. In fact, I got a message on LinkedIn the other day, you know, should I get into leadership or not? I was like, I want you to think about these questions and get back to me, right? First question I always ask is, are you ready to have your paycheck in someone else's hands? First question. And that almost always catches a top performer off guard because they've never thought about it that way. And I was like, are you ready to put your paycheck in someone else's hands? Second question, are you ready for your work ethic to no longer be tied to your results? When you're a sales rep, you can work your way to success more often than not. Like, if you're just willing to put in more, you can't do that as a manager. Just because you're working harder doesn't mean your team is going to do better. And then the third is like, are you willing for me to be upset with you because of what your team is doing? Are you willing to fall on that sword? Are you willing to potentially lose your job because of other people? And that almost always catches some people off guard because to your point, a lot of first time managers, they're thinking about just the good side, coaching people, and they do it and success.

And it's easy.

It's easy. And it's just so Fulfilling. Being a sales rep is way easier than being a sales leader. I miss those days.

Yeah, right. It's like, hey, I want to have control back. Yeah. When you're a leader, you give up all control.

Yes. So then what do I do about that, Stephanie? Right. So, like, because that is. You nailed it. Right? As a rep, you're in control. And I think that is why a lot of managers then try to control their team is because that's how they used to succeed, is they controlled what they did. So now I got to control my team. So what's the counter to this? Right? So like, how should I then be leading my people?

Absolutely. And this is a very common mistake to be this micromanager, to even do the work for them. I see that so often when you just start, it's like, hey, let me. You know what? I'm going to take this call for you. I'll handle it. Don't worry. Then you can listen back and then you know how to do it. That's the worst thing you can do. As a sales leader, your job is to enable your people to do their best work. How do you enable your people to do your best work? You need to focus on the people part. As a sales leader, you are basically focusing on influencing others and understanding human psychology. So, kd, you need to really get to know your people on such a deep level where, you know, what are their intrinsic motivators, you know, what are their dreams in life. You can then tie in that sales role they are doing every single day to those dreams in life. And that is how you as a leader come in. You guide them by their hand, and you basically are cheerleading and inspiring them to do their best work for those reasons. And very few managers actually even sit down and have those conversations. It's just about their everyday, okay? If you hit 120%, you hit accelerators, you earn a lot of money. That's it. That's why you should work hard. And that's not it at all.

No, it's. It's not. Oh, here. Now we're starting to get into the good stuff, right? Because influence, leadership, sales to me are all the same things. You're trying to change minds, to change behaviors, to change results. That's leadership. That is sales. That is influence. So let's go a little bit deeper on, okay? Like how to actually influence your team to do the things that they need to do. Right. You touched on goals a little bit, talked on, like inspiration a little bit. Let's keep going down this path, right? Let's start with goals. What goals do I need to know about my people and how do I find them out?

Well, I like to do a. The first question I ask when you join a new team is like, hey, talk to me about the height of your career. Like, how do you see the height of your career looking like, keep it really open. Some people will talk about a five year plan. Some people will talk about when they're retired. Some people will talk about, hey, I want this promotion in it year. So let them guide whatever their goals look like. I cannot go in there with my own preconceptions. Once you've identified that, we can then work backwards to the backwards timeline technique that you also use to close deals. Like, hey, okay, so your goal is to have your own consulting business in 10 years. Right? So what does that mean? While we're working together here? What skills can you learn now that will help you to be that consultant one day? Okay, we've identified this list of skills. You do that together with them, then you create a simple Google sheet and you're like, okay, so this quarter here is how the work you're doing is actually helping you develop that skill that you really want one day. Okay. And here's how we're going to measure it. At the end of the year, we're going to look back at all of our sessions and you're going to see how far you've come. And that is how you inspire somebody to stay in your team to have these deep quality conversations where you're really listening and you're putting all the assumptions out of your head and you're truly listening to them.

But Stephanie, isn't that invasive? Isn't it far to ask my people these personal goal questions?

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. You can't afford not to these days. The talent shortage. Justin, Justin, sass. Justin, sass. My little niche is unbelievable. Top performers who I call superstars, they are sought after in the market. You can't afford not to. This is how you stand out. This is how you build trust and a connection with your team. Even if you feel awkward or uncomfortable, that's. That's you. You need to manage that emotion. That's where your emotional intelligence comes in. Yeah. Ask it anyway. You will. You'll engage their response. You will. Then, okay, they gave me like a high level answer. Okay, let me ask another probing second level question. Let's see the response I get. At some point you can say, hey, I can. You know, I can hear that your answers are pretty broad. How comfortable are you having this conversation with me and ask them, that's the worst. That's the worst thing that can happen.

It's just funny because I hear that from time to time. Well, doesn't that cross a line? I was like, you know what? Then don't cross it. Don't find out what your people want. Don't find out how to get them there. Because, you know, that's the recipe to great leadership. Yeah, if I just don't, it'll be all right. Okay, so now let's keep going down that, that line because you mentioned something very important. Okay. We've identified the goal and then we identified, okay, what are some of the skills they need to develop to get to that goal? How do you develop those skills in your people? Right, because there'll be, you know, skills for their current job and also, you know, if there's skills that they're trying to do for down the road. So, like, let's talk about skill development. How do you actually develop the skills of your people?

Oh, you have to be an excellent coach. For me, the ideal leadership style in 2022 is the coach. So somebody who goes deep into, I don't know, the reports, the KPIs, the metrics. You're direct with your feedback. You pick out things that you have observed in your people and then you directly tell them what they need to work on. And then you have a measurable check in with them a week later or a month later. So you have to coach your team on whatever those skills are. Sometimes you have to do a little bit of research yourself and guide them to, I don't know, a course that you found or connect them with an external coach or whatever they need. But it's you as the manager. You should hand them the hand and show them the way. That's it. You're not there to solve their problems like yourself or to, you know, make sure their dreams come true, but you need to just enable them, give them the resources to do so, whether it comes from you or an external resource. That's it.

So what does it mean to be a good coach, though? Let's keep going down that level because that's, that's feedback, right? Everyone you know, it's good LinkedIn fodder. Don't be a manager, be a coach. Everyone goes. But then to your point, most managers never taught how. So let's keep going. Let's get into the how. How do you become a great coach?

You know, it's actually pretty simple. A good coach has authentic, frequent individualized conversations with their team. That's it. So you praise them regularly, you tell them regularly. Wow, you did a good job there. You really did a good job there. And even better if you do it in public next you challenge them directly. So every time you see that they could have done something better, you don't wait until the performance review next quarter and you just collect them and then you just sit and blurt it all out. No, you owe it to them to tell them as soon as possible. Hey, look, I heard you say this on the call. This is the impact that I've seen on the customer. This is what I would do differently. Easy, frequent, two to three minute feedback, that's it. Everybody can move on. You retain the information and that is exactly what a good coach does. And that's the missing piece. I see a lot of first time managers are very afraid to give direct feedback and it's the only way that really counts.

No, and I like the frequent and especially the individualized. That's the difference between coaching and training is training tends to be one to many, right. With a little bit engagement. Coaching is to the individual, what does Stephanie need to work on? But then also the key, the one thing I didn't hear there was practice. And that is always the thing that to me is what makes. Because if you're not practicing, then you're only training and teaching. You're not actually coaching. Right. Your coaches ran practice. Right. No matter what your sport, your instrument, your music, right. If you were in choir, show, whatever, there was always practice involved. So talk a little bit about practice in terms of skill development.

Yeah, absolutely. You nailed it. Practice is everything. Well, for example, let's say you're coaching one of your team members on active listening and you've heard a few discovery calls, you've identified whether it can improve. Then you collaboratively. And this is also key. Coaching should be collaborative. It's not just me barking what they should do. They need to have buy in and they need to really believe and be behind it. So you're like, okay, so I want you to, whenever you hear a prospect say this, this is your response. And you give like three example phrases that they are also comfortable with. And it's like, right, you have two weeks and we are going to do role plays in this time. We're going to schedule another session where I'm going to be the prospect. You're going to say these phrases just so you practice and then I want you to send me an example of you doing this on a call. Okay. And Then we'll review how it went in two weeks. How does that sound? Practice. It's also amazing to do kind of these peer review sessions. So it's not just me or the leader or the manager, but just with each other to do role plays. I find that a really great technique, especially for sales teams.

Now, 100%. I always tell this, this story. I had a rep on my team, her name was Tiffany. And like just getting feedback from me, getting feedback from her managers on like, where she'd improve on her call. And she just wasn't. This wasn't having it, just wasn't buying into it, like, wasn't like making any sort of changes. So then we had three of her peers review her calls and they gave the exact same feedback. And that was when it hit, when I was like, all right, this is not just my manager, this is not just KD giving me this feedback. It's like, dang. Even my, like, peers are like, yo, Tiff, like, you're not asking this question. You're letting them off the hook at the end and the way you're presenting pricing is off. Like, we gotta fix this. And that's when it clicks. So I love the peer to peer setup there. And so now let's take this a different direction here, right? Because these are the things that managers should be doing. Let's talk about how teams should be developing their managers. Right? Because again, I want to be careful with like, all right, here's all the things that you're doing. But at the end of the day, what we're talking about is the, the companies are not developing their managers. So let's pivot to the company side, let's pivot to the VP side. What should leadership be doing to help their managers get better at these things?

Wow. I wish every organization would think from this perspective. What I see, especially in our industry, unfortunately, VPs, VPs want to hire perhaps people similar to them. I did a post recently about vps or C level need to stop hiring clones of themselves. Because here's where the issue comes with diversity and innovation and creativity bringing in another perspective. So first of all, hire the right people, hire with diversity in mind, bring in other perspectives, hire people different to you, smarter than you, that you can learn from. That's step one. I also think C level execs, they don't spend too much time actually maybe shadowing or just being present whenever there is a new leader and they are doing their thing, but there's just no one else in the room and they're Just, you know, you're trusted by default. And yeah, okay, the team gave not such a good feedback for that, but that's fine. I really like this guy. So we're going to keep him on and he'll learn and so on. So I think they need to take it a lot more seriously because the cost of attrition is way more detrimental than just keeping on somebody who you just get along with or you don't really have the time to mentor or coach. At the very least, just hire a leadership coach for all of your first time managers who is a unbiased person in the room.

Yeah. And it's funny because this is a place where like ego comes back in, where it's like, well, I don't want someone else training my managers because that's my job. But at the same time you're not doing it. So which, which would you prefer here? You know, to go around, around this? Because it's true, right? Like I told this story, many of Hines, there were a couple hires that I made at my last role where they were hired specifically because they were different than me. Like that's quite like we had two, we had two amazing candidates, Ali and Jessica. And they were both amazing, like phenomenal. In fact, sometimes I look back and go, man, like how would, how would Ali have worked out, right? But I went with Jessica because she was different. She didn't think like me, she didn't talk like me, she wasn't like the rest of our managers. And that's exactly why I went that direction because like you have to diversify there because I, I don't want a team full of me's. That would be a nightmare, right. I'm a handful. Building a team of me's is a really bad look, right. And so I love that idea of like, you know, getting them a leadership coach, like teaching them how to do this. Because I think that is one of the biggest misses in SaaS that they've gotten away from. If you look back at, you know, kind of a history of business, right? The companies that did well, IBM, Oracle, you became a manager, they sent you off, like they sent you to management school. You went on site for like three to four weeks and got leadership development and then went back two times a year, right? Like that's, that's how these companies build, right? Like was, you're going into leadership, you got to go to this academy, we're going to fly you out to it. You're going to stay in dorms for a week. Like that's what's happening then here in sats? Like, hey, you hit your quota two years in a row, you're a manager.

Come in, come on in. Do your thing.

Totally go do it. So then, so let's kind of keep going down this path, right? So, like, there's the leadership coach. But what other things should be happening within an org, right, to make sure that the managers use the word there, like being held accountable to these things. What should managers be held accountable to? Because most leaders hold accountable to a number. What are, like, the behaviors and process things that a manager should be held accountable to?

I'm so happy you brought this up. It's something I just did recently with my team. It's something called the team accountability pledge that we have. So the beginning of each quarter, I share with my team. Okay, team, here are our goals. These are revenue goals, pipeline goals, etc. But that's not what I want you to hold me accountable for. I'm responsible for our team. So no matter what, I'm responsible for us. What I want you to hold me accountable for is how often am I giving you feedback. Am I consistent and reliable with my coachings every week? How many new skills did you learn from our coachings this quarter? That is what I want you to hold me accountable for. How often do you feel like I give you recognition? Like, it's a. It's more subjective, but it's so, so important that I give my team permission to say, hey, Steph, you know what? I don't feel like the coaching agendas the last quarter have been so, so relevant. I don't know. I don't think I. I've learned that skill that I wanted to work with you on or. Steph, you know what? I don't feel like you're celebrating my small wins enough. Like, do you even see what I'm doing? That's what I want to know. Because that is what. What keeps my team happy and motivated. It's not just the number and hitting target.

Well, it's interesting, though, so you took the question different direction. That was your team holding you accountable. What should your leader be holding you accountable to? Is it the same thing in your eyes? Right. So if you work for. For me, should I be holding you accountable to those things as your leader as well? Or do you see that as a different type of kind of like accountability conversation? Because I think so.

Yes.

This is what I held my accountable to.

Absolutely.

Questions about how should people lead the managers. And you went to the, well, my team. This is what we Do. What should the boss be holding you to? Is it those things?

Yeah, I mean, just thinking back to my previous role, I was, I had two team, team leads reporting to me. I held them accountable for their coachings. I held them accountable for the feedback the team gave about their leadership style. I hold my team accountable for this because it's, it's not just the numbers. You can be, you can be a, a very unfortunately toxic leader with a high performing team. Like you can just have one or two high performers who are consistently delivering your numbers. But then the rest of your team are miserable because you are not recognizing them, you're not coaching them, you're not spending time to have these deep, you know, life goals, career goals, conversations with them, what I call stay conversations. Then your team will be miserable. So I would absolutely keep an eye on that as a second or third, third line manager.

Yeah, like that. Those are the things that I held my managers accountable to. Are you doing your coaching sessions? Are you running your one on ones? When is the last time you gave recognition to this individual? Right. It's to the things they're supposed to be doing that should lead to the results. Not just the results. Because to your point exactly, there are a lot of bad managers out there hitting the number. A lot of bad managers out there hitting the number because they got two or three great reps. Those reps carry the team. The other 70% are missing by a mile. But hey, they still got to the number. So I was very, very clear with my leadership team. I would never be okay with revenue blindness. I would never allow just because you hit the number for me to be blind to how you got there. Because it's so easy. We hit the number. Yay. We missed the number bad. There are 100% times where we've hit the number and I put my entire team on notice because of how we got there being unacceptable. And there's been months where we've missed the number. And I couldn't have been prouder, couldn't have been prouder because how we did things was the right way. I just think it's very, very important that leaders are held to the right things there.

Absolutely. I love that. I wish more leaders were like you. Katie. It's about the details. It's about the journey, not just the end result I'm working on.

That's why I'm doing what I'm doing, which sounds similar to you. That's why I have the course, is why I'm doing the coaching, is why I do the consulting. Is because I truly believe that if we can improve the managers, that's how you change a company. Because when you have a team, you know, right now I think your team is like 8 to 10. Right. Somewhere in that range. When you have, when you have a team of 150, it doesn't matter how good I am. It literally means nothing how good I am. It all matters how good my managers are. Right. And that that ceiling tends to break once your team gets to about 30. Because when it's like 20, even if you have two managers as the VP, you can still get involved enough to kind of do things. Once you're at 30, 50, 100, 150. It is all about how good your managers are. And that is something that I don't think enough companies real. I think it's actually funny. I do think they realize it. Like if I sit down with you, it's pretty unarguable. Like if I bump in you and say, hey, oh yeah, how good your managers are? Does that make or break your, your company? Yeah, right. Like you can't no to that. But then the behaviors don't match. Now I do want to flip this as we start to wrap up here because I think this is important. I want to talk stress management for managers because as much as again, like we focus on the skills managers need to have, I also think there's a pretty large gap around how we take care of our managers. Being a manager is stressful. Like it is hard. What advice for, you know, managers? I wanted to say first time managers, but this is any manager. It's not like first time's the only time it's stressful. Like it's always stressful. What's your advice on handling that stress, Handling the pressure that comes with being a leader?

Oh, I love this question. Because mental health for managers is absolutely critical. So two things. You need to learn how to manage yourself and the second thing is setting boundaries. I'll start with managing yourself. You need to know yourself. You need to know what you need to do to have the most energy of the day, how to release stress. So for me it's exercise and my morning routine. So I know that in order for me to have a good day at work, I need to wake up early, I need to do a 30 minute workout, I need to then hydrate, I need to do some meditation and then I am set to face whatever work throws at me. No matter what. I am balanced. I am balanced. And I think if you don't even know what brings you balance and how you can regulate your emotions and your moods, then you're going to struggle tremendously as a manager because then you're reacting to every situation, every curveball that comes your way. The second point is setting your boundaries. You need to really be clear and communicate with your team, your managers, whoever stakeholders in your organization your boundaries are. So what I love to do and I recommend this for any first time manager, block your calendar. It's like right between these hours is my deep work. I'm just, I'm not going to respond to Slack or email. I'm, I'm just, I'm doing tasks that I need to get done that day. Between these hours I'm available. Here's where I do my one on ones. Keep it consistent. And these are my out of office hours. I will not be responsive. It will have to wait till the next day. Do this within your first week as a manager and stick to it. There's no point setting boundaries and then just replying to every Slack ping that you get. I don't know in the evening when you're supposed to be with your loved ones. So manage yourself, self care, exercise mindfulness and set boundaries. That is the key.

I love it. I love it because it is important that you, you know a phrase actually funny enough that I heard from Abby Williams who was a guest also over the pond and I told her I'm going to steal that and I love it was she said something along lines of like first lead thyself. And I was like, yes, that is everything. I was like, Abby, if that's not the title of your book, that's going to be the title of my book. Like I love that. And you have to be doing the things for you to be able to get through it. Most of my time with my managers almost always came down to calendar management. Where are you spending your time? Right.

Yeah.

When I would get slacks from my managers on the weekends, I'd be like, get out of Slack. What are you doing? When I would get the late like emails, I'd be like, I swear to God, you sent me another email at 9 o'.

Clock.

I'm putting you on a performance plan. And it's not because you're sending me the emails because we're not focused on the right things. You shouldn't have to send this email at 9:00'. Clock. You shouldn't have to be working on the weekends if we're doing the right things. Don't during the week. Right. That was almost always where conversations would end up going. Of like, wait, wait, wait. You're so busy on what I want understand where this time is going. So we make sure it's on the right things because otherwise you just never get it done. And you're always on that, that hamster wheel. And so go ahead, go ahead.

No, no, it's just. And it's time that this is not celebrated anymore. That working until the night or at the weekend is not like a thing to be proud of. I see that a huge shift as the revolution has begun where people are like, okay, you know what? Thanks to Corona, I can see the damage this is happening when I'm still working, when my family and I are supposed to have dinner. This has to stop. So luckily, hopefully we're all moving to a brighter future regarding a healthier work life integration.

Yeah, 1, 100%. 100%. So, okay, as we wrap up here, Stephanie, right, so the name of this podcast is Live Better, Sell Better. So I have this weird idea, right, that if we took better care of ourselves, if we had more energy, more joy, more fulfillment in life, that the sales would improve. And on this topic, right, it's like, live Better, Lead better might be my spin off, you know, podcast from this because I believe that for leadership too. What would your Live Better advice people be for people listening? Like, what are things that you've done or seen that have helped outside of the office actually make you better in the office?

I have to mention meditation. This has changed my life. I don't do it very long either. You know, I'm doing it for 10 minutes a day, proud of that. This has changed my life because now I am able to have the self awareness to understand what emotion is rising up within me, essential for leadership. Then I'm able to label it. So say, okay, I feel somehow frustrated right now. Then I'm able to act from a position of intention rather than react and just mindlessly, you know, respond in an, in an inappropriate maybe way as a leader. Yeah. When you're having difficult conversations. So with mindfulness and in my life, I'm able to be like, okay, I'm feeling this. That's fine. I'm gonna, I'm gonna respond in a thoughtful way to this or I'm going to take some time or whatever it is. I need Life changer meditation.

I love it. I went so far as to go to my HR team and ask them if I could make meditation mandatory for my team.

Oh, yes, that should actually be a policy. Without a doubt.

And of course, the answer was no. And I was like, why Though, like, if I can make cold calling mandatory something that destroys your soul, why I make meditation mandatory? Why can't I? Why I still. I never really got a great answer. I went and I did this twice, actually. I was like, I want this to be mandatory. I want this to be 15 minutes during the day blocked, where they have to do this. The science behind meditation is so overwhelming, it's so positive, it's so strong, it's almost comical that it's not mandatory because of all the benefits that come from it. And so I love that that was your call out there, Stephanie. That was phenomenal. So as we grab, I mean, this was, this was great. I love what you're bringing to the table. I love the insights here. Where can people get more of what you're doing? Where you're putting out content? Where can they connect with you? Like, where can they get more Stephanie Taiwo in their house. In their house. In their life.

In their life. Wow. Thank you, Katie. So I'm very active on LinkedIn. Follow me, Stephanie Taiwo. You'll see that I have the link to my website. So, Stephanie Taiwo me. And there you will be able to find my Jumpstart into Leadership course on Udemy where I guide you through a 30 day, 60 day, 90 day plan for your new leadership role that I use myself. And I also have a calendar slot there. You can book a 45 minute, one on one conversation with me about your career. So LinkedIn hit me up.

All right, well, go find her on LinkedIn, everybody. Stephanie, this was phenomenal. Thank you so much for your time, your energy and insights today. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, kd. It was amazing. Fantastic experience. Thanks, everyone.

All right.

But.