#007: Dan Davy (26 yrs) on Drafting Laws, Fulbright Scholarships, and International Development

Welcome to the Hackiversity Podcast, where students learn how to achieve more by doing less in college. Learn the hacks from wildly successful recent college graduates as your host, Kyle Whiney explores the colleges, majors and paths that produce the biggest results in college using less effort. It's hacking time. Hello. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. This is Kyle Wynie bringing to you the Hackiversity podcast. Choosing a major is super complicated. There are literally hundreds of options. Where do students even start? Where can students turn for good advice? Meet Dan Davey. At the age of 22, Dan cleverly crafted together a resume using a strategic major selection process which has helped Dan land a job. And deep within the Florida legislature, even though that position was designed for law school students, Dan impressed enough to score the job. As a result, Dan drafted pieces of legislation which are still in the books today. Can you imagine drafting laws as a 22 year old? Truly impressive stuff. If that's not enough, Dan received the prestigious Fulbright Scholarship which has single handedly allowed Dan to compete with Harvard graduates and inside the job market, that's how effective a Fulbright scholarship can be. And Dan explains how students can score their own. Ultimately, there's a ton of actionable advice inside this episode, making this episode one of my favorites to date. Without further ado, let's dig in. Dan, thanks so much for joining me today.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Dan.

So we've been friends for a while, but obviously I don't know everything about you. And so one of my favorite things about doing a podcast is that I research everyone who comes on air, including my friends and including you. And what I learned about you is that you worked at the Bicycle House at Florida State. Now I know that we chatted about previously you kind of tinkering there, but I didn't realize that you ever officially worked there for an extended period of time. And the Bicycle House holds a special place in my heart because that is where I stayed at on one of my nights when I was rode my bicycle across America. So I love that we kind of share that commonality of your college roots together.

Yeah, that's crazy. You know, the road, biking and cycling community, you know, nationwide, is actually a much smaller community than one might think. And so, you know, once you start getting into it, you always know someone who knows someone or you know people who have been to the bike shops that you've been to.

Yeah, I think that's great. And shout out to Scott if you're listening. Scott is the kind of leader of the Bicycle House and he's the one who let me crash on this floor. So Scott, you're the man. Thanks for being part of my journey across America and just running an amazing kind of service. Dan, if your best friend were to introduce you as a keynote speaker, what would he or she say about you?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think he or she would open up probably with some background on really where I consider home, which is Nebraska, and growing up with, you know, on my family's farm and working in small town rural America and having a real appreciation for blue collar culture and a blue collar society and understanding what hard work really means.

Awesome. That's perfect. So, Dan, just to set the stage, how old are you?

I am 26, so I'm still rather young.

You are still rather young and you've accomplished a lot and I'm excited to kind of dive in and explore those things for the listeners. So Dan, the first thing that I want to tackle is the position you held immediately after your graduation, and that is you worked at the Florida House of Representatives down there in Tallahassee, where Florida State is located. So Dan, can you explain what you did in the House of Representatives?

What you're referring to is the Florida House Committee Analyst Fellowship that I did. It's a program that's primarily built for lawsuit. And so there was 20 of us in our program and there were two of us who were not law students.

So Dan, as part of that position, were you directly related, directly involved rather with drafting pieces of legislation?

So I worked on the Transportation and Highway Safety subcommittee. And so we worked with the, you know, with the Department of Transportation and with the Department of Highway Safety. And we would work with them to write the legislation then that would go into this large sort of omnibus bill that would get pushed through the legislature. And typically those bills were less controversial than member sponsored bills because leadership don't want any kind of hard to swallow pills hanging up other priorities that need to get passed for state agencies. And so in some of those larger bills I got to write the essentially amendments that became part of those larger omnibus committee sponsored pieces of legislation. And that was actually one of the highlights from the experiences today. There's language in Florida law, whole sections that I personally wrote.

You actually drafted laws?

I did.

As a 22 year old approximately then, right?

I did indeed.

And Dan, what made you want to apply for this position?

I felt like gaining quality experience in the policy making process and really learning how policy is made and learning how the political process works would really be valuable in understanding how development and international affairs works. In a place like D.C. and furthermore, so much of the international development work that goes on is in the areas of democracy and governance and helping countries run effective democracies. And how do they effectively run a legislature, how does an executive branch effectively engage with the policy making process, and how do they integrate civil society into those things?

So you wanted to look from the inside, is what you're saying?

Yeah, so precisely. So I felt like working as an analyst from the inside would give me a really great view and how it works well in American democracy, and then that would be applicable then to doing development work, which it has in some ways.

Cool. Why did you choose to double major in both history and economics? Why not just history or why not just economics? Why both?

Going into college, I went to an academic camp. It was a Christian academic camp that was tremendously influential on me and I think really set me on the track that brought me to where I am today. And one of the key takeaways from that camp was this idea of loving God with my mind. And many Christians think about the passage where it says, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength and mind. And we think about that and we think like, oh, just love God with everything you have. And it's this, like, put all your emotion into it, all your passion into loving God. But what that camp taught me was that loving God with your mind encompasses so much more than that. And it really, it's about learning to think well and learning to think well about the world and learning to think critically and truthfully about the way the world works and understanding why it is the way that it is so that we can influence it to make it a better place. And that that is an actual worshipful experience. And understanding the way that the world works and understanding and being able to effectively communicate those things. For me, I felt like really the best way that I could do that was through studying history and studying economics. I think that for a couple of reasons. One, history provides the context for why the world is the way that it is. History is not really about, for me, at least, memorizing facts and memorizing names and dates, but rather it's about understanding why the world has developed and changed in the ways that it has, and why societies rise and fall in the way that they do, and why economies grow and develop and crash in the ways that they do. And history really provides you with the narrative side of the story. And on the other side of the story is understanding the mechanisms that create the incentives that really drive change throughout history. And for me, economics provided really the perfect window in being able to truly think through and analyze the incentives and the reasons why the narrative of history has changed in the way that it does. And it provides that analytical framework and the right questions to ask when you're looking at the historical narrative to be able to understand it.

So Dan, really for you, double majoring in history and economics was really about two different windows into the same issue, and that was understanding the big questions in life. And you were just coming at that issue from different perspectives. So it's more of an intellectual move on your end. It sounds like.

Definitely.

What exactly do employers think of someone like you who brings a double major to the table? One that is technical in nature, such as your economics degree, and one that is non technical in nature, such as your history degree?

Yeah, So I think that combining a, combining the technical and the non technical sorts of degrees provides to employers an ideal mixture of being able to communicate effectively, AKA history, being able to research things well and in great depth, being able to effectively contextualize. But I think the biggest thing that it provides is the ability to communicate and to write.

And those are all under the history umbrella that you.

Under the history, exactly. And under the economics umbrella. Economics provides a analytical mindset that you bring to problems and the ability to effectively problem solve and to effectively understand what sort of incentives are going to be needed to make the changes that you want to see, even on a small level on the projects that you're working on at work. Then of course, economics also has a very rigorous quantitative side, mathematical side, and it provided both. An economics major requires that you take a lot of math classes, but it also forces you to actually apply the math in really interesting ways and using math then to solve really interesting issues and questions about. About the world.

So, Dan, what are some strategic double majors you would recommend for current or incoming college students?

Well, I'm biased and so I would recommend to someone who is interested in history. I think economics and history are a great, great combination and I think it makes more sense than mixing something like, let's say engineering and history, where engineering is still a practical application of math, but it doesn't dovetail in any of the same ways or really in any way with history.

There's no overlap.

Yeah. So what I would encourage someone coming in is to really think about the big, kind of like the big areas that you're interested in working in and figure out majors that are going to have effective overlap. So for example, if you want to study engineering and you want to work in that field. A great second major that could complement it well could be like business management, because someday you'll advance through the ranks in your engineering firm and you'll want to manage teams of engineers, or you may even want to move up and be a CEO someday of your engineering firm, and in which case having quality education in how business works and how to effectively manage teams and how to effectively manage finances is going to be really crucial. So I think it's all about looking at the two majors that you're considering and making sure that they complement each other in a way that makes sense and that you're going to be able to really leverage to have a more productive career.

Dan, I know that one of the biggest objections to a double major is just that students say they don't have enough time. They don't have enough time to do economics, for example, well. And so they by no means want to add another major to their already full plate. So what do you say to students that, you know, object on those grounds?

I would want to ask a few questions in general to understand their background. In many cases, many students today are, as they go through high school, studying at local community colleges, and they come in with like a semester's worth of credit, or in my case, two semesters worth of credit, or they've taken a bunch of AP classes or ib. And so as they're entering college, they're already set up with tons of their gen EDS already knocked out. And in which case I can understand maybe you just want to take 12 credit hours a semester. But I would really want to explore more what are your actual circumstances? Because sometimes students look at the course requirements of a major and they don't really think through what there are already bringing to the table. And in many cases, people have far more ability to link up those sorts of majors than they may otherwise think. And the second piece to this is two, lots of majors outside of engineering and pre med don't have that large of core requirements. So as a history major, I think I was required to take a grand total of 35 credit hours in my history major, which is obscenely low.

So that's basically a year, right?

Yeah. Or as an econ major, I think I was required to take 40 or 45 hours, which is a year and a half. Yeah.

So what you're saying, Dan, is it's totally possible. It's totally possible to double major without burning yourself out.

Totally. And if you're, if you're studying something like poli sci or international affairs, or history or sociology or any of those kind of like interesting degrees that aren't necessarily very technically rigorous. Like, those degrees almost always have a very low course requirement for the majors and you have the ability to pair them up with other majors that are going to be technically more rigorous and provide a more appealing overall resume that you can present to employers.

I just really want to drive this point home, Dan. And that is a strategic pairing of a non technical major and a technical major is so effective that it opened the door to the legislature for you, is that right?

Yeah, definitely. I don't think that I would have gotten into the legislature without the two together.

So, Dan, I want to transition to your Fulbright scholarship now. And you want the Fulbright scholarship your senior year of undergrad. Can you explain to the listeners out there what exactly is a Fulbright scholarship?

Fulbright has really two components. One is sending us students abroad. So you could send like a master's student, for example, to go or an undergraduate student to go and conduct a research program in another country, usually in partnership with another university in the other country. And then the other piece is there's a reverse side where we bring people from other countries to come and conduct similar research in the US Then the specific program that I did was sending us students to go and teach in institutions abroad. So I taught in an English. I taught English in a Malay school in a small community, but far more than English. And I think my impact was much more than what I taught them about English. I taught them about American culture and understanding the world and understanding why America is the way that it is, and all these things that oftentimes people in other countries don't naturally think about, just like we in America oftentimes don't actively think about why other countries have developed the way that they are or why they have the cultures that they do. And so it was an amazing experience for me to teach them, but also for me to learn from the Malaysians and then ultimately to bring back everything that I learned and really to promote more understanding and more effective international relationships among my friends and among my colleagues and peers.

More of a citizen of the world.

Exactly. Yeah.

So, Dan, just so everyone can have an understanding about. About Fulbright, can you explain what kind of requirements are demanded for entry into the program and sort of the prestige that surrounds it?

Yeah. So Fulbright is a very competitive process in which you write a series of essays about why you believe that program is really strategic and valuable for yourself. You write about who you are as a person, what your strengths and unique experiences are that make you particularly valuable for that program. And you get recommendations from your faculty and from professional recommendations, all these different things. And then you go through an interview process where usually faculty at your university will grill you on who you are as a person and why that program really makes sense for you and why that makes sense for the US because you're really being evaluated on a national level and you're competing against people from Harvard and Yale and Princeton and all the top institutions. One of the cool parts about Fulbright is it provides a playing field in which someone like myself who went to a state university like Florida State was able to compete with people who are going to top level institutions and to really prove myself and obtain a valuable credential and experience that sort of levels the playing field now for me between Florida State and other top level institutions that typically outrank Florida State.

Wow. So to be clear, Dan, what you're saying is that even though Harvard may be more prestigious, as it were, in a given field, when you couple your Florida State degree with a Fulbright scholarship, all of a sudden you become just as competitive for those jobs as a Harvard graduate?

I don't know if I'll say just as competitive. That's a bold statement. But I will say it definitely helps level the playing field and it makes a really big difference.

Yes, and that is a key move though, because the tuition difference between Harvard and a state school such as Florida State can be huge. It can be 20, $30,000 a year times four. So we're looking at perhaps a hundred thousand dollar difference. And then if you do this Fulbright program, you basically get the cost savings of going to the state school, but you also get the prestige when you couple your state school degree with a Fulbright. That allows you to compete effectively with the Ivy League schools while saving money at the same time. So I think that's a really strategic move for students to remember.

But Dan, let me add one more point to that.

Yeah.

And not only does it level the playing field like, you know, professionally, but oftentimes people think like, I need to get an Ivy League, you know, credential under my belt and it's going to make all the difference. And in many cases it does. But with something like Fulbright under your belt, it opens the door to graduate education at an Ivy League school that would never otherwise be open to you. And so many of my colleagues from that Fulbright program have gone on and have gotten their law degrees from Harvard or have gotten gone to the school of Government at Harvard and Yale and Princeton and all these amazing institutions, and they came from state universities or small liberal arts colleges that aren't, are not normally thought of in that same tier. And you're able to pick up those credentials down the road as a result of working hard in your undergrad, doing well, and then obtaining those sorts of valuable experiences like Fulbright, which are available and accessible for all students.

Yeah, I think that's so critical and let's unpack that this will be the last point under the Fulbright and that is the Fulbright scholarships and other scholarships like it Dan, are often under the radar. People don't often think about pursuing these kind of scholarships even though they may be qualified. So what should students do to go about learning more about the Fulbright scholarship and more importantly, to learn how to angle themselves for acceptance into the program?

Yeah, good question. So the biggest piece of advice is one, pretty much every university has an office. They call it different things at different universities. We call that the office of National Fellowships, where they have professors and administrators whose primary job is to help students think critically about their long term goals and ambitions and abilities and then shape their college experience then around giving them the tools and the experience that they need to achieve that, including these sorts of programs. So for example, if you want to achieve, if you want to go do a Fulbright when you graduate from college, it can be really, really helpful if you take certain classes while you're in undergrad or maybe if you participate in your university study abroad program, maybe not just in France, but maybe where it's kind of the sexy location that most people want to study at. Maybe you should think about doing the study abroad program in Hong Kong, which will provide a much more cosmopolitan experience for you and ability to really develop those experience. And depending on what your goals are, there's a whole host of different ways that you can leverage your college experience around. And your university is filled with different opportunities and tools and resources to help you do that. And your Office of National Fellowships, or Office of Prestigious Awards, whatever you want to call it, is there to help students do it. And they will hold your hand through the process and help you write really good essays that will help you get in and help you think through how to build effective relationships with your professors so that they will write you really good recommendations. So like if I had one piece of advice for a college student, it's go into that office of National Fellowships, get to know them, tell them what your goals are and be like, what sorts of rewards and fellowships are out there and available for me to, you know, to achieve these things or to achieve more than I thought was possible.

And those fellowship offices then will tell you what classes are strategic in helping you get into the program. And they will also help you determine what study abroad program would be advantageous. Because you mentioned study abroad and course selection as as far two high leverage ways to get into the program. But the office itself will help you strategize what exactly those things are.

Definitely. Yeah. As a student, it's difficult to know what kind of faculty there is out there in your school and who has that kind of ability. So an office of National Fellowships really provides invaluable networking, where they're like, oh, you know what? In light of your goals that you have, we need to hook you up with this professor and you need to go take that course. Or even if you're not going to take his course, we need to help you go have lunch with him and discuss your ambitions and learn from him and his experience or her experience. And that's where the real value is, I think.

Yeah, that's so cool. In my book, Dan, I talk about one of the keys to networking is that you don't necessarily have to know all the influential people, because that's very laborious, it's very time consuming, it can be very stressful. But what is advantageous is to know the person who knows all those people, because then you only need to know one relationship and you get access to dozens. And so what you're saying is that the connector person here in this instance is the Office of Fellowship, and you go to them and they'll plug you into all these different people because they already know them. I think that's a really great strategic play. Cool. So, Dan, let's transition to my favorite part of the podcast. And that's what I like to call the rapid fire question section. And this is where I offer up some quick hitting questions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your answer needs to be quick hitting. So you ready?

Yep, we're ready.

Dan, who is the first person that comes to mind when I say the word successful?

Yeah, I would think of Walter Russell Meadow. He is my intellectual hero and someone that I read a lot of and would love to become someday. So he's a professor at Bard College up in New York and also a member of the very prestigious Council on Foreign affairs or Council on Foreign Relations, which plays a really pivotal role in working with the State Department and the decision makers on Capitol Hill on engaging with our foreign policy and thinking well about the world and about foreign policy and all of those sorts of things.

Awesome. Yeah, you don't hear that name mentioned very often. So I love that. You just introduced so many people to that, man. It's really cool.

Yeah.

Dan, would you say there's a specific college track to get you where you are today?

No, I would not say there's a specific college track. If you want to work in international development, you can study pretty much whatever you want. Study business, study history, you could study English literature. It doesn't really matter. Some might be more valuable for you long term, but in terms of what you need to get where I am now, you can study anything as long as you demonstrate throughout college and your first years out of college, a fascination with the world, commitment to engaging with it, and then beyond just fascination and commitment, actually going out there and engaging with it. Most people who are working in this industry start out in the Peace Corps. They go out and they live abroad for a couple of years, and they experience and they learn about the world and they design and implement programs to help it. And that's really what it's about. Whether you do Fulbright or you do the Peace Corps or some of the other programs that are out there, it's all about demonstrating that commitment to engaging with and helping the world.

Yeah. Wow. That's really key for those out there wanting to model the same kind of career that you have, that there's so many different ways to win. And I think that's really important for students to know. Cool. Dan, what's the best lesson a teacher, a parent, or a mentor has taught you?

I'll go back to what I shared about that academic camp I went to. I mean, Jesus said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. And you think about that. In my mind, he's the greatest teacher who's ever lived. And loving God with your mind totally transforms the way that you approach academics and learning and your career. And it totally changes your motivation and doing a good job at work. Once you start your career, it's. It becomes a spiritual experience rather than just working hard for yourself.

Yeah, I think that's really. It's really simple, but yet profound, but beneficial all at the same time. I think that's really cool. Dan, what book do you think every high school senior should read?

There's a really, really great book that I read. I read it in college, but I wish I had read it in high school. It's called the Education of a Wandering man by Louis l'. Amour. Louis l' Amour was really famous western novelist who had an awesome life where he traveled all around the world. And has done tons of different interesting jobs and had tons of different interesting experiences. But the reason why that book was so influential for me was because of how he displayed such a consistent fascination with the world and passion for learning. And I think at as young of an age as you can, you want to surround yourself with those sorts of examples of people who are really passionate about achieving the best that they can and about learning as much as they can and about thinking as well as they can about whatever their chosen field is. And for me, when I read that memoir, it was truly inspirational and really was sort of midway through college renaissance for me in terms of my commitment to really learning and thinking and forcing myself to continue to grow and improve as a person.

Yeah, one of my favorite quotes is that you are the average of the five people to whom you most surround yourself. And I just. I think that the influence we experience with other people or that. But the influence other people exert over us I think is often underestimated. So I think it's just so key that people, particularly college students, are mindful of who they surround themselves with on campus. Dan, what is one thing you want a college sophomore listening to this podcast to?

Know your university has an office of national fellowships. Go find it and go meet with them.

That's perfect. Sophomores and everyone else listening to this podcast, go into that national fellowship office. Dan, last question for you. If you could recommend something to a college student in the form of a tweet, what would it be?

Teach yourself to be a curious person. Whatever you're doing, whatever you're working on, you know, have curiosity in it and, you know, really pour yourself into it and really learn about it with all that you are.

Yeah, I think that's key. I think that's key because you can keep pressing and pressing and pressing, and that is really, I think, some of the raw material to getting ahead of other people, because they'll stop. So, Dan, this has been fun. I just really love doing this stuff, and I always enjoy talking to you in particular. So thanks for coming on. Where can people learn more about you and the work you do?

I have a LinkedIn. Daniel K. Davey, look me up. Feel free to shoot me a message if you are interested in learning more about the work that I do and the experiences that I have. I'm always glad to chat with people or do informational interviews, and that sums it up.

Cool. Awesome. Thanks, Dan.

Cool. Thank you.

Hey, all. There are two major takeaways from this episode, and I want to emphasize them before you go. The first is double majoring. In this episode, Dan and I discuss the advantages of strategically double majoring in a technical major and a non technical major. In my book, I call this becoming a math loving people person. The idea is that the double major demonstrates that students bring a complete toolkit to the table, both from a technical side and from a non technical side. In fact, this move is so effective that it was responsible for scoring Dan a position within the Florida legislature. The second big takeaway that I want to emphasize is that Fulbright scholarships are extraordinarily powerful from a job prospect point of view. Winning a Fulbright scholarship can make virtually any student competitive with that of a Harvard graduate. Plus, Fulbright scholarships will pay for students to travel abroad. Talk about a high leverage play. That's why I strongly encourage students to figure out how they can score a prestigious scholarship, just like Dan did with the Fulbright. That's all for now. Catch you all next time. If you want more hackiversity and achieving more by doing less in college, you can subscribe to the podcast on itunes or grab the book on Amazon. For the show notes and the latest on Hackiversity, check out KyleWiny.com don't forget to follow Kyle on Twitter at kylewiny and on facebook@facebook.com hackaversity Till next time, Happy hacking.