#023: Anthony ONeal (Dave Ramsey Personality) on College Finances

Welcome to the Hackiversity Podcast, where your host, Kyle Whiney, deconstructs higher education inside the new economy. Get ready to learn how students can hack their way to the best results before, during, and after college. It's hacking time. Hello. Hello. Welcome to the Hackiversity Podcast. I, Kyle Whine, am continuing a trend on the show, which is to interview influencers and gurus inside the world of education. And that trend exists because you asked for it today. I'm excited to welcome onto the show Anthony o'. Neill. Anthony is a Dave Ramsey personality. You know, that guy who tells you to stay out of debt. By working with Dave Ramsey, Anthony has developed a practical approach for college students seeking to manage their finances. Well, recently, Anthony published a book titled Debt Free Degree. So you can be sure that Anthony knows a thing or two about college finances. In this episode, Anthony and I will explore Anthony's perspective on one, choosing the most financially sensible college number two, if and how much to work at a job during college, and three, how to manage finances while at college. So without further ado, let's dig in. Anthony, welcome to the show.

Hey, sir, how are you this afternoon? Thanks for having me on.

I'm doing fantastic. Thanks for coming on, Anthony. I'd like to set the stage by giving our audience some perspective on who you are and why you do what you do. So currently you are part of Ramsey Solutions, which is the company founded by Dave Ramsey, who I love and actually follow my wife and I do. But you've had a fascinating journey leading up to landing there, particularly as an 18 year old being significantly in debt and sleeping in a car. So I'd love for you to explain and share that story with the audience.

You know, Kyle, I graduated, man, out of Fayetteville, North Carolina in the year 2002, graduated with four amazing parents. You know, I have two biological parents who married two parents we call Step, but they're all four gray parents. So one set of my parents live in North Carolina, the other set lives in San Diego, California. And they taught me everything from my spiritual background to, you know, the yes sir, the yes ma'. Am. But they didn't really teach me nothing about finances and life. And so when I got out of high school, got into college, started thinking I'm a grown man, started really just diving into the real world without the proper guidance. Before I even turned 18 and a half, six months after graduating high school, about $25,000 in debt. Probably about, yeah, about 25, $15,000 in credit card debt, $10,000 furniture debt. And unfortunately, because me making some bad decisions, got kicked out of school. I lost my father's GI Bill and a couple of scholarships that I had through my National Forensics League. And me and my father in California, we got into a huge argument over some decisions that I made. And I'm homeless. You know, I'm kicked out of the house. I don't have any friends that I can go to that can allow me to, you know, sleep on her couch. And I ended up sleeping in the back of my car at a Walmart off of Highway 76 in Oceanside, California. And here I am, 19 years old, homeless, $25,000 in debt, no friends, and I'm on my own. And so. And what's so funny is I used to say, you know, Kyle, that I found myself. And the truth is, put myself into that situation, making the wrong decisions, trying to please all my friends, the young ladies at that time. When I look back at everything that I financed, I promise you, I financed a lot of Burger King, McDonald's, pizza, roses, sound systems, things that had no value. Just to impress, hang into, blend in with the common folks. And I woke up in the back of my car and I was homeless for a good period of my life.

Wow. So did you say you financed $10,000 worth of furniture?

$10,000 worth of furniture from Aaron Sells and Lease.

Wow. So you were making these kind of crazy purchasing decisions even as a teenager.

Yes.

So what was the switch that flipped in you? What? Said, you know what? Being in debt is not the way I want to live, and I want to clean things up.

You know, it was just me. You know, I'm 19, I'm in the back of my car. For what? You know, neither sides of my family are broke. They're far from broke now. They're not filthy rich, but they're doing well. There was no reason for me being in that situation. There's nothing like being at the bottom, contemplating suicide, wondering, do people love me? And it was at that time I said, you know what? I'm going to change my life around. I'm going to get out of this situation. I'm going to admit that I was wrong, and I'm going to fix this. And my father said, you know what? Come home. You've learned your lesson. And he gave me a Dave Ramsey budget form when I came back home, and he said, you're going to get it. You're gonna get a job and you're gonna budget. And I got a job. And here's the funniest thing man, my first job out on my own as an adult was for a collection company. I am collecting other people's debt.

Yeah.

When I'm in debt.

Right, right.

And, and so got a job and just say, you know what? I'm gonna do this. I'm get out of debt. And I didn't make every right decision since then, I've made some, some, some, some decisions that I could have made better decisions on. But, you know, today I'm 34 years old, completely debt free, just built my first dream home. And I said, you know what? I'm going to change my life. And when I changed, when I started changing my life, I said, I want to travel the world and I want to help other young people, millennials, teenagers, and anybody who just really wants a better life. And it's not just finances. It's just making good decisions that also impact your finances and your future.

I love that. I love that. You know, I too, Anthony, work with a lot of college students. I work with a lot of high school students, and they face a critical decision when they're a teenager, and that is, where do I go to college and how much do I pay for that? And so when you're working with these folks that you do, you know, high school students, college students and their parents, how do you recommend that students approach selecting the best college? And in particular, how do you recommend that they deal with the issue of diet debt?

Yeah. So when it comes to choosing the correct college, here's my very, my very first thing. Select an affordable school. I'm gonna say an affordable school. I want you to gauge in state versus out of state. I'm a huge fan of whatever state that you're in, stick to it in state school. That's number one. The number two, once you stick to an in state school, I really want you to focus on what, what are you passionate about? What is that career field that you want to go to? There's a website out there that I love called find your calling, and it helps high school students really identify. This is what I like to do. Here are the career fields in that area, and here are the local colleges in my city or state that offer great programs for this career field.

Anthony, one of my thesis. So I completely agree with you. I completely agree that students should go in state. I actually went to an in state flagship school. I went to Penn State. And that was a great decision. So incredible value there. But one of my theses is that if students can go to an elite college and we can kind of talk about what constitutes an elite college, but let's just say Harvard. So if students can go to Harvard, one of my theses is that it makes sense to kind of pay up for that, even if you have to take on some extra loans. But if you can't go into those elite schools, then absolutely go in state. So what's your advice when it comes to paying up to go to these elite schools like a Harvard or a Yale or something like that?

You know, my philosophy is like, if you're going to go to a Harvard or a Yale, here's the very first thing that I always tell kids, that a college or university doesn't make you. Yes, those are great schools, but you are who you are and education is important. But I do not condone. I do not. And I would not allow my children to get in debt over going Harvard to go into a free in state or a cheaper in state to get the exact same degree. So my philosophy is, if you can go to Harvard, figure out a way to get scholarships, grants, get it paid for. If you have to take out student loans, we're not going to Harvard, we're going to stay in state. You know, I'm from North Carolina, and so we got some great, great, great in state schools there. Duke, Chapel Hill, NC State, some, some good HBCUs there, Central. So we're going to stick there. We're going to ride right there. But nothing wrong with Harvard, Yale, Princeton. I have a lot of friends who have gone to those schools, but a lot of my friends as well have graduated with 3, $400,000 in debt and only making maybe anywhere from 80 to $120,000 a year. And to me, that just doesn't make sense.

Yeah, and that sounds like a lot of money, right, coming out of school. But when you have three or $400,000 of debt, it's like all of a sudden 80 to $100,000 a year isn't all that great.

No, it's not.

So to be clear then, Anthony, you kind of had this bright line rule against taking out student loans, is that right?

That is correct. Yeah. I avoid loans 100%, and that's what I reinforce and teach as well.

So what happens then if a student comes to you and they say, look, Anthony, if I can just take out 5,000, $10,000, I can go to Harvard. But I hear you saying, look, I have a policy that there's no student loans. So then what do you tell that student? How do they kind of come up with that difference? Or you just Say you can't go, period. What's your advice?

If we're talking about five or $10,000 to go to Harvard, Kyle, then we can raise that cash, man. We can get scholarships. Your local community can. They will rally behind you. You can get that cash. And so I've never had a student come up to me and say, hey, I need five or ten thousand dollars to go to a Yale. I had one of my students call me and hundred thousand dollars to go to Princeton. And I said, well, we're gonna go to this free school because we're not gonna raise. We're not gonna do $100,000. But now watch this. This one kid got accepted into Yale, and he was, okay, but I do not have the money. I said, all right, this is what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to community college. Because no one ever asked you, where did you start? They always ask you, where do you finish? And while you're in community college, you can get a job. And every single day, you gonna look up grants and scholarships every single day for at least one hour. And what you're gonna do is you save it and stack it so by the time you get to your junior year, you can transfer to that Ivy League school and you can pay cash for it. And that's exactly what he did. He didn't borrow a dime. He didn't finance anything. He paid cash, and he ended up living with his aunt to save for the housing cost. So my whole philosophy is, if you dream it, if you work hard for it, you will achieve it. But if we just go the normal route and just stick to, oh, I'll just borrow money. No, now you're robbing from your future. Work hard in your present so your future can thank your past.

I like that. Yeah. And I think that's a great tactical play. Go to community college and stack up. What'd you say? Cash and stack? Or something like that with the cash.

Yes, sir.

I like that. I like that. And then pay up for the Ivy League college after two years. I think that's a fantastic play. That's very tactical and very practical. Anthony, when students are at college, how do they deal with some of the expenses that all students face? So, like, you know, they want to go out to eat, they want to, you know, hang out with their friends, whatever. Do they get a job for that kind of stuff? What's your recommendation?

Yeah, so one thing I recommend. I recommend all college students work the minimum of 20 hours. Minimum. And max. Well, Max, I would say 20 hours a week. Okay. Because I want you to focus on your education. That's. That's your number one concern. If you're in school, I want you to focus and finish and graduate at the top of your class. So when it comes to, you know, trying to go out to eat, when it comes to really having a college life, yes, I want you to work 20 hours a week, but at the same time, I want you to have a budget. Okay. I want you to sit down, say, you know what? I'm gonna go out to eat on Thursday, or I'm going out to a gathering on Friday. I'm gonna go buy this on Saturday. I want you to have a plan for your money and a plan for your time and a plan for your life, and make sure that all three of those are congruent together. And so I love and I tell colle students, have a good time, Enjoy the college life, but make sure that you're not making bad decisions. Prime example. One of my former students, when I was pastoring in Jacksonville, Florida, I had her do a budget every week because what she did was her parents made her get a job. Then her parents also gave her an extra $100 a week. So every single week, she did a budget. And we started noticing that she was spending a lot of money on eating out when she had a cafeteria plan. And I'm like, well, wait a minute. You're paying all this money for the cafeteria, but you're eating out more? So we cut that budget down by 75% and we made her eat at the cafeteria, and she started using that money for other expenses. And I always tell young people in college, like, hey, make sure that while you're having a good time, be prepared for an emergency. Be prepared for a flat tire, a cell phone breaking, or what if you need to get home, Something happens to a family member, you need a bus ticket or a plane ticket home. Make sure you have anywhere from 500 to 1000 dol. It's just sitting in an account for an emergency, which helps you avoid, you know, credit card debts and financing things and buy here, not buy here, but payday loan advances and stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah. What's your recommendation for students using credit cards generally at college?

You know, my number one thing is because of my past, avoid credit cards at all expense. Debit cards do the exact same thing credit cards do, but you just don't go into debt for it. I know the world says, hey, go ahead and get your credit card. Start establishing your credit score. You need three trade Lines so you can buy a house, so you can get a rental car. But I'm a firm believer in avoiding credit cards at all costs. You do not need a credit score to let you know or to determine if you're successful financially with your money or not. I know a 50 year old guy that I'm mentoring right now, has 820 credit score, but only has $160 in his savings account right now. Any less paycheck to paycheck. But his credit court, his credit score supposedly says he does good with his finances. Well, that's, that's backwards. But then I know someone who's a multimillionaire that got, declined to rent an apartment, but he has two, three million dollars just sitting in assets and in his account.

Yeah, totally backwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So stay away from credit cards is your advice.

Stay away from them and just spend cash. And here's the thing, if you can't afford to pay cash for it, wait, save and just pay cash for it down the road. And that's something that I'm doing. At 34 years old. There's a lot of things that I would like to get, but I'm not going to get into debt over it. I built a beautiful home. It took me a year to furnish my home because now I own everything in the home. I just recently purchased a new car. It took me three years to save up to buy that car. But here's the thing. I own everything that I have and it's mine.

Yeah. And how does that feel versus being in debt when you were 19?

Man, it feels great, Kyle. When I wake up on the 1st of the month when everyone is, is getting up and stressing, oh, I got to pay rent, I got to pay this, got to do this. All my bills are due, man. I wake up on the first of the month. I pay my mortgage and the rest of the money, I tell it what to do. It is, it is freedom. And it feels good because it's mine and it's. And I could do whatever I want. And it's not like getting a paycheck on Friday and then Monday I'm down to 100, 200 bucks to last me for the next two weeks. It just feels, it feels like freedom.

Yeah. Talking about ironies, Anthony, One of the most ironic things in my life is the fact that I had to go to school to find out what the limitations of debt were. Because it took school, took law school to expose me to that. Otherwise I would never be in debt. And I can, you know, vouch for me that it's significantly limiting as to what you can do with your life, with what you can do with your career. So what do you, how do you relate to and advise students when it comes to helping them kind of get released from those limitations, even if they want to take a job, perhaps that more aligns with their passion and their strengths, but pays less and you know, and this person's in debt, how do you advise that person if you're in debt?

I still want you to do what you enjoy doing, but I also want to make sure that maybe you pick up another job, you do whatever you do everything and anything that's legal to get out of debt, get you a second job and just work hard. Now, once you become debt free and you set aside some emergency funds, anywhere between three to six months, you know, I don't have a problem with you pursuing your dreams. That may not make a lot of money. Prime example, school teachers, they don't make a lot of money, but they're impacting the world. But if you're debt free and if you have a good emergency account, now we have, we see school teachers who are making anywhere from 40 to 60 thousand dollars a year, but they become millionaires in 20 because they're saving, they're living below their means and they're investing. And so I always tell people that your passion should not be something that doesn't make a lot of money because if you work it correctly, it can and it will, but you have to have the heart's desire to go after it. But here's the thing. If you're in debt, I really want you to consider doing something or having a job that pays a little bit more that you may not like as much just so you can become free to do what you really want to do.

Yeah.

And once you get there. Yeah. You'll have the freedom for there to do whatever you want to do with your life.

Yeah, I love that. I think that's excellent advice, Anthony. With our short few minutes that we have left, I want to transition to the final segment of the show which is, is what I like to call the rapid fire question section. And that's where I offer up some quick hitting questions. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your answer has to be quick hitting. So you ready?

I'm going to hit them quick.

All right, let's do it. Suppose that you are Anthony O', Neill, the 18 year old high school senior preparing to graduate in four months. But this time you are graduating in 2019. So where are you going to concentrate most of your energy in an effort to best get the to the next step?

I'm going to focus on my gifts, which is my mouth, in a good way. I love to talk. I love to inspire, I love to motivate. So in 2019, I will probably go to school, focus on communication or maybe seminary school, because I have a heart and passion for preaching and teaching.

I love that. Great. Anthony, what is one thing that you want a college sophomore listening to this podcast to?

Know that the caliber of your future will be determined by the choices that you make right now. And so if you really desire a bright future, make all of the right choices as much as possible right now. Because every one decision that you make will impact you in a good way or bad way in the next few days, the next few months, years, you name it. Just remember that the caliber of your future will be determined by the choices you make right now.

Great. Who is the first person that comes to mind, Anthony, when I say the word successful?

My father.

Why is that?

Because my. My father raised a young kid that was a knucklehead. Didn't make a bad kid, but, you know, I was a knucklehead. I made a lot of bad decisions. I didn't listen. And he taught me how to become a young man. He kicked me out of the house. He made me learn the hard way. And because of that, he is a successful father, a successful husband, a successful man. He's not rich, he's not famous, but he is a good man.

I love that. Yeah. And I know a lot of people like that, too. They aren't. They're not rich, they're not famous, but I certainly aspire to be like them. I think that's amazing. Anthony, last question for you. If you could recommend something to a college student in the form of a tweet, what would it be?

In a form of a tweet. In a form of a tweet. Listen, you are special. You are fearfully and wonderfully made. Go impact the world.

I love it. Great, Anthony. We'll leave it there. But before we wrap up, where can people learn more about you and anything else that you find interesting?

They can go to anthonyonil.com I am all over Instagram. I love dropping nuggets on there every single day. My Instagram handle is Anthony O' Neill at Anthony O', Neill, but Anthony O'neill.com has all my information, My tour dates, speaking engagement dates, some great resources for college and even high school students. And I'll be releasing a book later on this year for parents to help their kids get into college debt free. So all that information is on my website.

Great. And I will include all of that stuff in the show notes so listeners can easily access it. Anthony, thanks for coming on the show.

Okay, thank you sir.

Hey everyone. One major takeaway that I want to emphasize prior to wrapping up. Anthony highly recommends going to in state colleges. So do I. In state colleges offer one of the most valuable plays inside the entire college arena. The reasons are clear. First, students receive a heavy discount by way of in state tuition simply by being at an in state college. In other words, in state colleges are a great deal. Second, employers love hiring in state college graduates, particularly from flagship state schools. In other words, in state colleges offer good job prospects. Third, there tends to be a lot of school spirit at in state colleges, especially the bigger schools, meaning that it's often easier to make friends and build relationships there. Obviously that's a good thing. That's all for now. Until next time everyone. Happy Hacking. If you want more hackiversity and our optimized approach to hacking college, subscribe to this podcast on itunes or grab the book on Amazon. For the show notes and the latest on Hackiversity, check out Hackiversity.com don't forget to follow @Hackiversity on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Until next time, Happy Hacking.