#015 Dietrich & Carlie Linde (29 yrs) on Paying Off $155k in Student Loans in 5 Years

Welcome to the hackiversity Podcast, where students learn how to achieve more by doing less in college. Learn the hacks from wildly successful recent college graduates as your host, Kyle Whiney, explores the colleges, majors, and paths that produce the biggest results in college using less effort. It's hacking time. Hello. Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the hackiversity podcast, where I, Kyle Whiney, show students how to achieve more by doing less in college. Today, I. Welcome to the show Dietrich and Carly Linde. Right after college graduation, Dietrich and Carly represented the vast majority of college students broke together. Dietrich and Carly graduated with over $155,000 in student loans. That's enough money to buy a house in many parts of the country. That's why this episode is so timely and and so important for students in particular. During this episode, Dietrich and Carly explain, first, how they managed to accrue over $150,000 in student loans. Second, what students can do to prevent falling prey to massive student loans. And third, if students already have college loans, how they can repay them in rapid fashion. Without further ado, let's dig in. Hey, Dietrich and Carly, thanks so much for joining me today.

Hey, thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

So, Dietrich and Carly, congratulations on being my very first couples interview. I'm super excited to have you both on the show today.

Woo.

Hey, we're glad to be here.

So, Dietrich, you and I share a really special connection because you were the one who actually inspired me to ride my bicycle across America.

Hey, that's good. I'm glad to be of assistance in that way.

Yeah, well, your story about riding your bicycle across America was super inspirational to me and really pushed me to kind of get outside my comfort zone and pause and reflect after law school. And I thought, what? No better way to do that and disconnect from everything than ride 3,167 miles across the country?

Hey, that's right. It is the best way to see America.

It is the best way to see America. And America is beautiful and awesome.

It is, for sure.

So, guys, I want to set the stage here before we talk because so I love to do with all my guests and to do that, can you tell the audience, how old are you guys?

We are 28. Both of us.

Both of you guys are 28. That's really, really awesome. So not all that far removed from graduation, correct?

Yep. Yeah, we graduated in 2011.

Awesome. So let's get into your college experience. So you guys graduated in 2011, and Dietrich, you graduated with a degree in engineering And Carl, you were a double major, right, with psychology and kind of a interdisciplinary studies. A little mishmash.

Yeah. So that was really fun. It's English, history and religious studies combined.

And so you both graduated from Virginia Tech. Why did you guys choose to go to Virginia Tech?

So I can answer that. First, I wanted to go out of state, and I wanted to go to a big school. I'm from Pennsylvania, and I wanted to go south, and Virginia Tech sort of met that. It's very comparable to Penn State, but like I said, I wanted to head a little bit further south. And it's a good technical school. Obviously, they're very well known for their engineering. And I studied MC Mechanical engineering, so that's why I went there.

And Carly.

Yeah. I actually did not want to go to college. The place where I grew up, it wasn't a big thing to go to college. People just didn't really talk about it, so I wasn't that interested. But my brother was very interested, and he's three years older than me, so he went first and he found a major he liked there. So then that was the only college I knew. And my parents said I had to apply somewhere, so I applied there and I got in.

Cool.

But I'm very happy. Happy about that.

Yeah. And so when a lot of people think of state schools, like Virginia Tech or like Penn State or something, if I think that they believe that those sorts of schools have relatively low tuition, and people who graduate from those schools don't necessarily have high debt burdens. But you guys did. Right. So can you walk me through how you guys actually financed your way through college?

It's a good question. So we had. It was $155,000 debt that we had when we came out combined. Mine was about 120,000 of that, and Carly's was 30,000. And Carly's is pretty normal. If you max out your government loans, a lot of times it comes out to around 30,000. So her parents covered the rest. All the government loans that they could take out, they did. And so Carly carried that burden. The 120,000 that I had, I paid for all of my college with loans. And I didn't. I didn't save up any money beforehand. And my parents didn't. They weren't able to offer any financial assistance. When I went to school. They had paid for all of my education up until school. I went to a private school, so. And the reason I racked up 120,000 was because I was out of state. But I actually also transferred schools and went to UNC Charlotte for one year, and then I transferred to Virginia Tech. And not all of the credits transferred, so I had to take a lot of extra classes, take some summer classes, and four years later, I had $120,000 of debt to my name and a degree to show for it.

Wow. And, Carly, for you, what was it like trying to figure out how to finance your way through college?

So the whole debt thing for me has been a process. I really didn't under. My. My dad really tried to help me understand money. I just wasn't interested in it. So I didn't. It didn't really make sense to me what kind of money I was getting into. Even when Dietrich and I got married and he was explaining how much money he had in loans, it just didn't make sense to me. I was just like, okay, cool. Like, whatever. So when I was. Yeah, I didn't save any. I didn't save up any. And my parents couldn't. Couldn't afford to, like, save a ton either. So they took out loans under their names and I took out loans. So the first year, I tried to get, like, a work study, and it just. It didn't work out. So this. The next three years, I did work about 12 hours a week, and that helped pay for a little bit of rent and, like, some food and some, like, fun money, I suppose. And then my dad actually took out, like, extra loans for rent and books and stuff like that, not just tuition.

Yeah. So when your dad's sitting you down, Carly, and he's trying to explain what this kind of money means? And when I say this kind of money, I'm talking about, you know, the size of it. So, you know, you. You graduated with $30,000, and Dietrich graduated four times that amount. So, you know, what was it that or how was it that he tried to explain it to you? And do you think that his messaging was ineffective, or is it just one of those things where it's like you don't really get it until you're actually in it?

Maybe it's a little bit of both. I think it's definitely something you don't get until you get into it. Like, you know, work or marriage even, or having a baby. I know a lot of friends with babies, but I don't really know what that's like unless I had one. Just the everydayness of it. But for that, he. My parents really didn't want me to worry about anything, and I don't think they wanted me to worry about money. Not sure if he ever really, really tried to explain it, he just. I don't ever really remember having a conversation about the tuition funds and stuff like that until after maybe a year or two after I was in school. And he asked that I get a job to help pay for rent. I was like, okay, sure. But it. He didn't try to explain the, like, massiveness of it. Like, what $30,000 could mean on, like a monthly scale.

Yeah. Did you guys work those numbers out freshman year, even before you enrolled in college, or was it just one of those things that you kind of accumulated throughout your four years, and then all of a sudden you looked up at graduation and you're like, oh, I have a bunch of student loans now.

Yeah. And that's actually. It was. We graduated. We're like, wow, we got a lot of student loans. Like, I had no idea how much I had when I graduated. Which for me to say that is, like, kind of embarrassing. I'm like, how did I not know this? But, I mean, I was a young college student, but it was that idea of just swipe, swipe, swipe. You know, the credit card. It wasn't obviously a credit card. It was a loan. But every year, this is how much tuition is. This is how much extra you should take out. I work my way through college as well, but it only covered rent. And so you just kept taking out loans to finance what you finance the tuition.

Yeah. So. So basically you guys just, you know, even if people did try to explain what debt meant to you, kind of you just went through college and you just, you know, signed the student loan applications, and then at the end of your four years, you're like, oh, gosh, we are swimming in student loans. And we didn't even realize it.

Yeah, pretty much. And I. I feel like I don't really want to fault anyone, either the school or my parents, but I would encourage other parents and I mean, obviously students as well, to look into it for themselves. But even if the school could have some kind of, you know, educational program that you could go into and explain that before you go to school, before you take out loans, or even during, so you don't sneak out even more. But I mean, I think now I'm thinking about it. I do remember looking at the numbers online, but it's just numbers, you know, there's no bills. And I've never worked with that kind of money before either. You know, I had minimum wage jobs in high school, so they were just numbers, you know. Yeah. They didn't really mean anything until we graduated and they were our numbers that we had to pay for. And then they were very much real.

But to kind of contextualize this for people because, you know, I think Carly's right. A lot of people, they work minimum wage jobs and they don't realize what these numbers mean with so many zeros behind. And so, you know, like, I talk with my fiance a lot with, you know, what we could be doing with this if we didn't have student loans and have to make these kind of monthly outflows. You know, like, we're basically giving up, you know, trips and vacations and stuff like that. So, you know, what, what were you guys forgoing? You know, what did you have to forfeit, basically, and just making your minimum monthly payments after graduation with a balance of $155,000?

Well, I feel like we. The biggest thing that again, might not. That might be a little hard to grasp is that a lot of our friends did buy houses and we still are not close to that. Like, you know, we're still in the fundraising stage of savings and the down payment stuff because we spent all of our time paying off something. So I'd say houses are like, we didn't want a new car, but, you know, a lot of our friends got new cars, cars, or they have nicer apartments, stuff like that. Like, we always just had. We never felt like we were missing anything. But we're pretty like low key people. So I feel like if it was someone else, maybe you would feel like you're missing a lot. But I mean, we never had much more than we needed. We lived for a year. We did live in a normal apartment. It was the cheapest one we could find. It was nice. But north Virginia is pretty expensive. So we ended up living in a basement apartment for a year and a half, which didn't have the kitchen or. I mean, I think it was. How many square feet was it?

Like 600 square feet.

600 square feet, which is really small.

Really small.

Yeah, that seems big. We just moved out of a tiny house, which is 150 square feet. So that actually seems really big to me. But yeah, so really small. And people thought we were. Were crazy, you know, living like a married couple living in someone's basement. And we shared laundry and a fridge and we didn't have a kitchen or a guest room or things like that, but it didn't really bother us. But stuff like that, if you can't. For us to make those payments, we really needed to downsize our rent bill, which was the biggest you know, that's your. Usually your biggest monthly expenditure is your rent. So I think we cut ours more than. About. About in half, I think.

Gosh. Yeah, so. So basically what you guys had to do just to make ends meet after graduation was live in this really, really, really tiny basement apartment without even a fully functioning kitchen. Right, you just, like maybe a microwave or something, right?

Yes, we had a microwave.

So, you know, I think when it comes to student loans, a lot of people are okay with student loans. They think it's just very normal, very routine, that it's just the way it is for a college education. And then others say, look, debt of all kinds, including student loans, is to be avoided at all costs. Do not borrow any money to go to college. And then some people fall in between. So do you guys believe that there's a healthy amount of student loans? And if you do, how much is that on the spectrum?

That's a good question. We do fall into the part of debt is good debt. Like, people. I do think people say, no, that's a. That's bad debt, and this is good debt. Like, I don't have credit card debt, so I'm doing okay. I only have student loans. And we see that as. That is still debt, and you should be working to get yourself out of that as quickly as possible. And so no amount of debt do I see as, like, a good thing coming out of college. But I do think that there is an investment into it. So. And that's how you can get ahead. Like, right now, I'm able to run an engineering business and all that stuff, which is based off of my college education. And if I tried to pay for my college education, if I went to, like, Virginia Tech for four years and I tried to pay my way through it, it might have taken me 15 years to pay my way through Virginia at Virginia Tech, if I didn't take on any loans. That's just a rough example. And so that would still put me at, you know, maybe 33 years old, and I wouldn't be where I am now without that. So I was willing to put in some investment, take on some debt, because I knew it would get me somewhere so much faster.

Yeah, well, you know, so it's interesting because I. I really took a deep dive when I wrote my book and tried to advise students about what is the optimal amount of student loans, if any. And what I found is that. So like you guys said, there is. Debt can really, really crush people. And there are just so many stories out there of people getting suffocated with debt. And then they have to work at jobs that they hate simply because they pay well, and that's the only option they have to repay their loan. So you don't, obviously don't want to get suffocated by debt. But on the other end of the spectrum, you know, I don't necessarily think that zero student loans is what you have to do either. A lot of reports I found is like, hey, if you have $10,000 of student loans or less, you can handle that. And so, you know, I think for the audience out there, like, $10,000 is kind of a good number to keep in your head. It's 2017, so, you know, if we listen to this, maybe five years later, that number will change. But, you know, I'm with you guys, though, that no debt is certainly more ideal than debt, right? And I think kind of like you guys, I have really altered my. What? I don't know if you guys have altered your stance, but I have altered my stance on debt and kind of embraced what you guys are saying. My stance used to be very much one of, let's actually make minimum payments because I will invest in the stock market, or I'll invest in other things and make money off of that investment. And then, you know, the difference on that, I will actually use to pay down my debt and I'll have some leftover. And so I thought that's how it went. I thought that's how it was supposed to work, because that's kind of what my finance teachers taught me. But in reality, what I found is that debt equals risk. And I think that what you guys are saying is that you don't want to be saddled with all that risk in your life, because what happens if your debt snowballs to a point where you can't make minimum payments? And I've actually seen that with a lot of people that I work with that they're just so swamped with debt that their life is actually in chaos because they have creditors knocking at their door. And there's something to be said about the peace that comes with no debt. Is that right?

Yes, definitely. The night that we actually ended up selling his motorcycle to pay the last little bit. Totally worth it, just so we could have it on the. Like, it was five years to the day of graduation, and I just was so unbelievably happy. And the next day, just realizing I didn't owe anyone anything. And, you know, even, you know, worst case scenario if something bad happened, which, like, three months later, we both Ended up in the emergency room within a month of each other. And that's like 5,6000. But it was okay because we had saved up money and we didn't. Oh, we didn't have any debt. So it was, you know, really annoying and terrible, but it didn't hurt us. It didn't. It didn't, you know, throw our lives into catastrophe because we had debt. We had this, we had that. Like, we had. We were fine. Even if we had to take out money alone to pay those that, you know, we could have paid that off. Really cool.

So the peace that comes with not having to pay anyone is definitely worth being out of debt.

Yeah. So much.

Yeah, I agree.

You brought this up. You know, the borrower. The borrower is enslaved to the lender. And that was something with our jobs. Like, I felt like we had to just work that job. And I stayed in jobs I didn't necessarily like because of the pay that it was giving us. And now I'm doing something that I absolutely love. And there's no way I could have done this without my. If we, if we had the debt.

But. Yeah. Dietrich, I want to get to your point about the borrower being slave to the lender. I know that's a line that Dave Ramsey uses a lot, which I love. I love following him and his kind of philosophy on money. But I think what's critical is, I think it's so important for students to do what they love in the workplace because it takes such a large portion of our life. And I love the fact that you can take those risks in the workplace to actually pursue what you love because you don't have that debt hanging over you. So can you elaborate a bit more on that?

So once we paid off the debt, I ended up starting my own mechanical engineering business. And there's a. Our income is a lot more influx. I mean, if I get a contract, we're doing okay, and if I don't, we're not. And so it's all over the place. But I. I have full ownership over that business. I feel like I've got a lot more. There's a lot more responsibility of getting to do what I get to do instead of working for somebody that's telling me what to do. And I, I enjoyed my other jobs to a certain degree. But. But the flexibility that I have now to be able to do this is. Is incredible. And I'm not right now. I'm going to be six months into this, this, starting this, and I'm about at half the salary That I was in engineering, but I love it so much more. Like it's, you know, it's been an incredible opportunity. And like I said, I wouldn't have been able to do this if we didn't have the debt. And that was one of the first things we dove into once we did pay it off.

I love that kind of. One of my life mottos is be safe at home when it comes to money, but take risks at work when it comes to money. And it's really hard to take risks at work like you're doing dietrich with your kind of entrepreneurial endeavors when you have all this debt hanging over you at home because you don't want your risk at work to follow you home at night. Right. And so the fact that you don't have to pay any debt in your personal life frees you up to take these risks in the workplace, which puts you in a great position not only in terms of your career, but just in terms of your personal welfare. You're loving what you're doing and I think that just translates to. It translates to a better life overall. So guys, when people graduate from college and like you, they have hundred plus thousand dollars in debt, what do you tell them the secret to getting out of debt is?

Don't freak out.

Step one, keep your calm.

One of the things I think that is remarkable about our story is that it is unremarkable. We weren't doing anything like special. We didn't find some like lost token and it ended up just like wiping out the deck and all that. But what we did, it did just come down to numbers. And the numbers. One thing I say is the numbers don't lie. And so we went and the first thing is we figured out. I ran my credit report right when I got out of school and I ran Carly's and so I collected all of the data as to. All right, where are all of our loans? Because that was another thing we didn't know is where were all of our loans and how much were they? And so I collected all that. That was over the summer after we graduated. And then we just set up the plan. I figured out what the highest interest loans were, figured out what it was, and we were like, we want to pay it off in five years, what do we got to do to get to it? And so we just set up the plan. And then it's just, you know, you just stick to the plan and the rest will take care of itself. And I felt like the biggest stressor for us was that we didn't know. Like in the beginning I was like, I have no idea how much this is. Like, is it $60,000? Is it $150,000? And no matter what it is, what does that number actually mean? What does that mean with respect to what we're making? How long does it take to pay off $60,000 in debt when we're making this much and all that? And once we got to just set up all that and see the numbers and know, okay, it's 155,000 and we can pay it off in five years, a lot of stress went away and then it was just a day by day thing of just making it happen. And the rest took care of itself.

Cool. So just slow and steady wins the race. Perseverance, trust the process. But to set the goal, Reverse engineer is what I hear you guys saying. So figure out how long it takes to be out of debt at the salary you make and just stick to that process.

Yes.

And oh, this is our. This is my secret. I do have a secret that I will share.

Secret alert. I like it.

Yeah, once we did this, it was about a year or a year and a half in or something like that. It completely changed everything. I feel like that's what you say on like one of those titles like read this. And she completely changed everything. Anyways, so if when you're budgeting so you have your income and you know, you just start putting out budget lines and you know you end up paying whatever you can. But if you budget your that number that you found out how much ever you are going to pay per month on your debt, you budget that out first. So you know, if you have to pay a thousand dollars and you get $2,000 every month, you budget out that thousand dollars. You pay that as soon as you get your, your check and then you budget the rest of your life on that, on whatever's left over. So if you can't go out to eat, you can't go out to eat. If you can't pay Netflix, don't have Netflix. Like you need to budget that your debt first because if you don't, you're not going to get around to pay for it. Because we are creatures that like immediate gratification. No, I want my Starbucks drink. No, I did some calculation a while ago about like how many Starbucks drinks. You know, if I got one every day or even every week, we would have like, I think it was like a year extra of paying our debt just because of Starbucks. Adds up, you know. So you need to budget out Your debt payment first, and then budget the rest of your life on the rest of that, if that's what you can, you know, figure out how to afford that.

Yeah, I like that. Treat it as kind of a fixed expense, if you will. If you will. Even though it's not a fixed expense. That way, you know it's going to go to your debt and you're not going to mess with it. Well, guys, I'm looking at your repayment chart that you have on your website, which I want to get to in a second, but let's talk about your repayment chart. So I can't help but notice that the curve, and that is kind of your repayment trend line, if you will, slowly goes down at the beginning. So, you know, it doesn't look like you're making all that much progress at the beginning, but about year, I don't know, two. I mean, it plummets. In other words, your debt goes from really high to really low. It looks. I don't know what happened there. Did you guys just kick into high gear or what happened there? It's awesome.

Well, I think it was a mix of things, but I'll let Dietrich explain the first part. We used to joke that it was our backwards square curve because it, like, didn't do anything for a while, and then. Yeah, just kind of plummeted. But go ahead.

Right, yeah. The big idea in the beginning, obviously, we are. I think when we started out, our interest that we were accruing on a monthly basis was somewhere around a thousand.

Bucks, just an interest alone. So basically, you're paying a thousand dollars for really nothing, for just decisions you made four years ago.

Right, Exactly.

Yeah.

And so. And that's why those years are so critical. Or like, right in the beginning, it is so critical to really chip away at it, even though it really feels like you're not making a lot of progress. But when we were taking that, you know, we were putting $3200 a month into it. Now $2200 is going into principal, and it's slowly, you know, chipping away. And then that number slowly transitions. You know, it's $2,200 a month principal in the beginning. Halfway through, maybe it's, you know, it's much less. We're $300 in interest a month and $2,900 of principal. Right. And so that's why you get this very steep curve at the end and a very shallow curve right at the beginning, and it rolls off.

Yeah. At what point, guys, did it become real to you that you were actually going to pay off $155,000 maybe the day it happened.

Yeah, I just always thought something was going to happen and we weren't going to do years. To a 22 year old, that's a good percentage of your life, you know, trying to plan something and then execute it. Having like a five year goal. I've never had a five year goal, you know that. So that was pretty crazy to me even thinking about it. But I think when we got halfway, I was doing a blog along the way. It really helped. It helped us not freak out and feel like we were able to like give back at what we're learning and how we were doing things cheaply. So we did of a lot blog post on being halfway there. So what is it, 77 something, 75, something like that. And we felt, we were like so excited, like, wow, we're halfway there. And it was a little bit more than halfway through. So we were like, okay, maybe we won't hit like exactly the five year mark, but we could say, oh, it's been five years since, you know, we started school. You know, that would give us like a few more months or something like that.

So.

Or you know, even five years after that first six months mark that you have to not pay. Like we just kept trying to say like, oh, if it didn't happen five years, we could, we could kind of like skew that or whatever.

So guys, let's transition to what you guys are up to now. So Dietrich, you mentioned that you are a mechanical engineer running your own shop, but I understand that you guys are also running your own website or your own side hustle, if you will call it fatsol Slim Kitchen. So tell me what that is.

Yeah, you can tell. Fat Soul Slim Kitchen.

So the blog Fat Soul Slim Kitchen started I think in 2013 or 12 when once we moved into the basement and I needed like an outlet for how crazy I felt for living in a basement. When we moved all our stuff in, I just, I was like, oh my gosh, what did I get us into? Because I was kind of pushing us to do that. So it was at first a lot of like food recipes, like how to cook on a budget, how to eat out on a budget, how to like sewing lessons and stuff like that. Just so you didn't have to buy new clothes. Anything that we were doing at any part of the day. I was just writing about it to kind of feel helpful for my friends, but also just kind of an outlet for me. And one of the Big things that the point of the blog was, was not only to figure out how to do your budget, but how to pay debt. Because like I said, I didn't know anything about money really until after Dietrich and I were married. And he has taught me so much. And I know that there are other people like me who don't know anything. And I wanted them, I didn't want them to miss out on the knowledge that I've gotten from Dietrich. So I would have him explain things to me and I would write them up about like interest or taxes or anything like that. So there was a lot of blog, blog posts about that. I was really hoping to monetize it, but that just didn't work out. And that is okay because it was really fun. And I had a lot of friends and family tell me that they, you know, they were inspired and that, I mean that was kind of like part of it. Did want to make money off of it. It's cool to find sweater. But now when we moved to the second town, we lived in for a job. It was a very time consuming job. And so I stopped doing the blog and turned it into just like kind of a static. I hope to return to it one day, but it's just a static website that explains like from those five years of experiences, I've put them into like a four step process with like a ton of like extra links and stuff, stuff like that to other, like to my blog post kind of like summed up in a nutshell. So if anyone asks me, I can send them right to my page and I can tell them everything I want to tell them in very like succinct, succinct way. So, you know, basically the steps are know your debt, pay your debt, know your budget, stick to your budget. And then those are like the main steps and then it kind of branches off from there. And what is interesting, what is your debt? How do you find it, how do you pay it? What's you know, a budget calculator like mint.com, how do you keep control of your finances and stuff like that. So that, that took me about a year to kind of sum up all of our stuff. So right now it's, it's just on, it's out there for people to look at and I hope it helps. But I haven't kind of gone back to it in probably, probably a few months. It's just kind of chilling right now.

Yeah, no, I. Carly, I think your blog is great and I think I really just like the simplicity of it and Just, you know, you make real your debt repayment, which I think is really cool, and you lay out just really simple facts and visuals that it really hits home because it says, hey, this is possible. And here's how. Well, guys, I would love to transition into the last segment of the show, which is also my personal favorite segment. That's what I call the rapid fire question section. That's where I offer up some quick hitting questions. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your answer has to be quick hitting. So you guys ready? Cool. So would you guys say that there is a specific college track for students who want to get to where you are to get there today?

I would say no. There's many different paths to get there. I mean, and you got to define, I guess to get to where we are today. The job that I'm doing, the mechanical engineering contract work I do sort of need the degree for that and obviously that helps. So going to college is helpful, but somebody could have gone to a two year community college and then transferred in and done that. So there's many different ways to get to that degree that we got that could have been a lot more affordable.

And I think it depends, depends on what you want. So if you want to, you know, have your own small business, which I mean, we love, but I know a lot of people we've talked to said they would hate it. They would just hate having to like figure out all this stuff on your own. And we love it. So maybe someone wouldn't even want to do like necessarily what we're doing, but to get to where you want to go. I think it obviously just depends on where you want to go. I loved my college experience and I loved, loved the knowledge. I probably wouldn't have needed it to get where I want to go. So like currently, I think if I wanted to do, you know, some of my dreams, I'd have to go back to school for something completely different just because I didn't know at the time what I wanted to do.

Yeah. Cool. So guys, my second question for you is what major college experience or even post college experience unique compared to everyone else?

That's a great question.

I think. I don't know if it's unique, but I might have been maybe unique compared to the people I knew. Because I didn't grow up in an area where like college and school was a high priority priority. People just didn't care about it that much. Most people that I knew just got ups and hope they passed high school. So that wasn't my main concern when I went to college. And so I had a ton of fun and made a lot of friends and we were part of a student organization. And so I pretty. I just like kind of threw myself into that and I did schoolwork and I did enjoy the stuff I was doing, but that was not my main priority while I was there. So that's why I probably said I probably shouldn't have gone at the time. I maybe should have waited, which I think is totally okay. And a lot of people do and they are older when they go into college and can make a better decision about their life. But you know, I went as an 18 year old who didn't know what they wanted to do. So then I already spent and not wasted, but I spent that first year or two already investing into something I had no idea about.

Yeah, I think what made mine unique, I come from a pretty. My parents raised us in a pretty like independent way. So my parents actually never even came down and visited Virginia Tech until graduation and stuff. So I very much felt like I was down there on an island, but in a good way figuring things out. So I ended up sort of making my own side business while I was in school doing like farming, helping out on some local farms all around getting some craigslist up there. So just even the way of money, I feel like it was a little bit unique. I could have worked on camp, but I felt like the amount of money I would have made on campus versus working on a farm was I could just make more doing other things and stuff. So.

And you enjoyed it.

And I enjoyed it a whole lot more. It was good to get out in.

The fields working on a farm. I like that. That is unique. I like it. Guys, next question for you. Suppose that next month is your first day of freshman year at college and you must retake all of your courses. You must reselect a major. Basically you must do everything over again. So where are you going to concentrate most of your energy developing your college approach?

I have a question.

Yes.

Do I. Does this like erase my previous college experience or do I get to have both?

You get to have a brand new college experience with the knowledge that you have about college right now.

So I would end up, if I can take the do the same major, I would end up doing the same major. What I would do or at least focus switch my focus on is I would have gone to class less. I think I relied too much on class and not enough on just working out the problems with engineering. And I assume that this is with most Degrees. At the end of the day, you either got to write the paper, you got to work out the problem and all that. And that's what determines your grade. Like you have to pass the, the test and all that. And so had I focused on just practicing those things, like working out problems and all that. And we're like talking about things and actually verbalizing it instead of just going into class, listening to a professor and expecting that I retained everything. And then, yeah, of course I could just spit out exactly what he just said and I could do all that. I think I depended too much on that. Instead of really focusing on and working it out for myself and verbalizing it myself.

I think that if I can have both experiences, I really did appreciate my first experience. And I think it helped me grow as a person. And everything I learned in my degrees, I think helped me out in life. And they will help me out in life until I die. Like with interpersonal communication and all that stuff. And just, even a general college education just helps so much. Any college education. But if I was going to take it, like more seriously and like, have, you know, the most bang for my buck and all of that stuff, I would probably, and this is what I encourage other, like, new students to do, is figure out what you want to do. And if you have no idea, like I did, then if you're still in high school, try to shadow, like, not pay an internship, but just try to shadow like a bunch of your parents or your friends. Parents, your parents, friends, whatever. And see what they do. See if any of that kind of jumps out at you so you can get more. I think before I went to college, I thought there were like four things you could do, like doctor, lawyer, teacher, and banker or something. You know, I had no idea there were thousands of different kinds of jobs and things you could do for money. And so just figuring all that stuff out. But me, I'm more hands on, so I need to like, go. I wish I could shadow some people, see what their everyday life is like. If I want to do that every day for the next 30 years or at least 10 years or something, or like their ultimate goal, like someone researching cancer, maybe they don't like doing that every day, but their ultimate goal of figuring out how to cure cancer, like, that's worth it. Figuring out what you want to do and what you like doing, I think that helps. But if you still can't do that by the time you enter college, I would suggest researching a few that you think you might be able to do or at Least ones that help you in life in something that you might want to do. So I would, if I could go back, I would love to do like physics or engineering or something like that because I think it's so interesting what Dietrich gets to do every day. And I mean, honestly, I hate money and it's just not a incentive for me, but I know that you need it. And so my degrees, I have a lot of them and I had a good gpa, but they don't make me any money because I would need to do master's programs or have more, just more education to do the things that I was looking at doing. And we just didn't have the money for that. And also I figured out that I don't want to do those anymore. But. And even if I, like from my 2 degrees, I could not have got a job of those degrees when I graduated. So try to figure that out as well. Like when you graduate, can you get a job in the thing that you just studied? Or do you have to do more? Or is the college that you want to, to go to, does it even do that? Like, I. The interdisciplinary studies was geared towards education, but I could not get an education job after that. It wasn't an education major. It was like kind of a mashup so you can get your master's and stuff. Like, so figuring out that, like looking longer term, having a, like talking to your school counselor in college and high school, trying to figure all those things out, like, just try to be practical. Like, I think I just want to, wanted everything to be fun, which was fine, but then I had no practicality. And so then I graduated and I was like, oh, I can't really get a job anywhere because I don't have the skills to.

Carly, I think you just summed up hack adversity in a nutshell. So basically step one, I think is what you're saying is, look, it's all about self awareness. So figure out what exactly you want to do. And there's different ways to do that. So, you know, job shadowing people is a great way. Working actually part time or interning in those experiences is a great way because you actually get to see for yourself by doing it for yourself, whether or not you like that. So I am 100% on board that self awareness is kind of step one in this. And then you just figure out a game plan that helps you get to where you want to go by reverse engineering whatever that game plan is. And then, and step number two is execute that game plan towards you Know, with an eye towards practicality. So how can I develop a game plan to get me where I want to go that actually is going to, you know, get me a job in light of what I want? And so, you know, that's. That's basically what hack adversity is. Number one, figure out where you're going, and then number two, figure out the optimized path to get there is really what this is all about. So I love that. Cool. Guys, next question for you. What is the best lesson that a teacher, a parent, or a mentor has taught you?

I'll just jump in, I guess. My uncle, I really respect him, my mom's brother, and he has such a keen eye for, like, detail. It's just. It is impressive. And so for me, I always took just, like, I would get most of it there, but, man, the details just really paint, I think, a different picture on life all together. Like, the fact that we paid off our debt at five years to the day just makes it such a more, like, beautiful thing than, like, had it been like, five and a half years, like, sometime in September. And so I think, like, just the details, like, all the way, like, through college and all that stuff, like, maybe don't try to do every single thing, focus on a few things, but really, really work out those details and make it happen.

All right, what is one thing that you want a college sophomore listening to this podcast right now to know?

I. I would say just as hard as it is, you can't have everything that you want, so you can't have all the time that you want. You probably should work, and if you have loans, you should work and pay off at least the interest to those loans. If not, you know, already start paying on the loans or saving up money for when you graduate. And if, you know, you don't move back in with your parents or even once you do move out, there are so many payment amounts that just hit you with right away, regardless of debt. Like, if you get an apartment, you have your security deposit and your first month's rent and then your water bill and all of this stuff and furniture and gas and new clothes for your new job. Like, it just adds up really quickly. So saving money now, because you probably won't be working 40 hours a week, you're probably working 12 to 20 if you're in school. You know, saving that money. If you don't have any loans for future, I think you would just be so much more relaxed when you graduate knowing that you, again, nothing's gonna hurt you if you have or not, nothing. But, you know, all the major things that hurt people aren't gonna hurt you if you have that buffer. So I think that would be. I know a lot of people that we, that we've known over the years would have done well to know that. And me as well.

Like for me, I always took, I always took one day off a week from school. I pretty much had the Sabbath. And that was really, really good for me that I could end up going and having a really awesome like time just to go out. And there was. The new river was near us, so we'd go down to the river and we go swimming and stuff like that. And that was really good. So yeah, it knocked down my GPA just a little bit. Maybe because I wasn't studying all the time, wasn't studying seven days a week. But I, I had such a more like full life because of that, because I was able to do that. But on the other side too, I think sometimes there's people that go into college that just party non stop and that probably gets really boring after a while and they end up doing bad in school too. So a little bit of balance of really trying to be like, hey, I'm gonna study for a while, really put in that time, but then I'm gonna back off and it's gonna be okay. And the difference between, between a 4.0 GPA and a 3.5 GPA in that when you graduate and the jobs that you get, I really don't think, or at least in my experience will get you that much different of a job. But it probably takes twice as much work to go from the 3.5 to the 4.0. So be okay with taking a day off and going and just living a more full life.

Dietrich, I think that you just read step number two in 30 seconds of HackaVersa because that's, that's exactly it. Actually. Hackaversity is built step number two, at least on the kind of execution side of it after self awareness is built on. I use the 8020 principle that a few things matter really, like really matter and a lot of other things just don't matter all that much. And I am 100% with you that I think grades are one of those things that just don't matter all that much because of the reasons that you mentioned. You know, there's really diminishing returns when it comes to GPA that people, employers don't distinguish with fractions of a point like students think that they do. And so the student would be much better Served, I think, professionally, but also personally. Just like you mentioned with getting out of the library, getting out of the classroom even, and just go do things that matter. And if that's hang out by the river, then go hang out by the river. Or if it's go, you know, hang out with other people, then go do that, but do things that matter and be intentional with how you spend your college time. And that's exactly what step number two is in terms of the execution mode of the college approach. And it's built on this idea of the 8020 principle, as I like to call it. And that's a few things generate most of the outcome. So I love that. Cool.

And I think, just to add. Sorry, just to add to that one last thing. What they should do is like, Dietrich said he didn't have a super awesome gpa. He was even on the, you know, academic probation. Yeah.

Just one semester.

However, some of our friends that had 4.0s did not get jobs for a year or even two or three years because they didn't have the sufficient experience or background or something like that. But Dietrich. Yeah.

Or.

I mean, but things that you like working on the farm, people are, like, really interested in that. And like, oh, you did stuff. Like, you didn't just study. You actually, like, went out there and tried and, like, did stuff. And so I think an internship of any kind, paid, unpaid, would really help get you that first job. Not just. Not just a gpa, because, you know, a lot of places turned away teachers because of his gpa, and they're like, no, I'm sorry, we can't take anything below this. Just, period. But then people who looked beyond that and really understood that Dietrich is amazing in all the stuff he says he can do, and they saw it because he, you know, did it already on his resume then that. I think that was even more helpful than a 4.0.

Yeah. And actually, Carly, that's my story is that I worked really hard in college and I got really good grades, and I graduated at the top of my class. And then I went to employers, and I'm like, okay, you want to hire the smartest people, right? So smartest people have the highest grades, so hire me. And they were like, we don't even know you. No. So I couldn't even get a job despite my high grade senior year. And it didn't make sense to me why that was. And I realized I was really good at doing the wrong things. And just like you said, I. I watched other people, particularly one of my fraternity brothers, Score the dream job that I wanted. And one of the reasons why was not because he had stellar grades. It wasn't because he spent all his time in the library, but rather he had things like internships, and he had practical skills that were very marketable to employers. And I didn't have that because I spent all my time in the library rather than developing practical skills. And so when I talk about the 8020 principle, when I talk about executing in college, it's doing things that matter. And those things that matter today are developing practical skills through internships and real job experiences, and not necessarily by having the highest gpa. And so that's what I just love telling students to focus on things that matter and just kind of lay out what those things are. So. So the tagline of hackiversity is achieve more by doing less in college. And a lot of people think that's kind of a tagline for laziness, but it's really not. It's saying, hey, look, if you do what matters most, those things aren't. You don't have to just grind, and it doesn't have to be a drag, and it doesn't have to take 24 hours in a day. If you're just intentional about executing on what matters most, you can generate a huge bang for your buck and not. Not just wear yourself out. So that. That's the idea of Hackiversity in a nutshell. Last question for you guys. If you could recommend something to a college student in the form of a tweet, what would it be?

Okay, so mine is. I have a hashtag that goes with it. Is that okay?

Sure.

Okay, mine is dollars are made of name. Nickel and dimes, Nickels and dimes. So, you know, hashtag, every little bit counts. So that's, you know, that's in regards to debt and budget. Budgeting. So, you know, Netflix, it's only $8. It's okay. But that. That's a nickel and dime. And again, over, you know, a year or two, that could be your trip to Paris.

I like that. Yeah. So true. Cool. What about you, Dietrich?

Yeah. The remarkable thing about our story is that it's unremarkable. And so maybe that's not a great tweet to, like, cast all around, but, yeah, it wasn't very pretty how we got it done. But at the end of the day, we did just get it done. And it just. Day in and day out, and we're normal people, and we're normal people, just stick to the plan and get it done.

So, guys, this has been really fun. Thanks so much for coming on my show. Where can people learn more about your story and anything else that you find interesting?

Yeah, well, thanks for having us. It's been really great to talk with you as well. I feel like we still learning stuff from people. I think you can learn more about debt repayment from our website called Fat Soul Slim Kitchen. And that's just about the fat soul being like, if you're working really hard, then you know there's this verse in the Bible that talks about the soul or the belly of the diligent is fat, but the belly of, of the lazy is lean or something like that. And so if you work really hard, like working really hard being diligent, but also having like slim kitchen, like either no kitchen or, you know, doing the abnormal thing or budget friendly stuff. Anyway, that's wholesome. Kitchen.com you can learn more about debt repayment.

Cool. I will put that in the show notes too for all the listeners.

And then if, if they go to lindysolutions.com that's L I N D E solutions.com the mechanical engineering company that I started. It's called Lindy Designs and Solutions. And so now I get to do what I love, which is owning all of my designs. And I. I have to do projects almost every other week and it's just been a really cool time so they can find me on there and end up. They can always email and Facebook us or any of those others too.

Cool. Awesome. Yeah, I'll. I'll put all that stuff in the show notes. Guys, thanks so much for coming on.

Yeah, thank you so much. Great to talk with you.

Hey, everyone, before I let you go, there are three major takeaways that I want to emphasize. The first concerns the optimal amount of debt. Students should assume. Many people fall somewhere on the spectrum when it comes to thinking about student loans. On one end of the spectrum, there are people who are completely okay with taking whatever amount of student loans for the sake of getting a college degree. Graduating with $200,000 in student loans does not bother these people. On the other end of the spectrum are those people who refuse to take any student loans whatsoever. They simply avoid debt at all costs. And of course, there are people that fall somewhere in between. But the question remains, what is the optimal amount of student loans, if any? In other words, if taking on student loans is okay, at what dollar amount should students should students avoid going over? The answer is that in 2017, when this podcast is being recorded, students should take on no more than $10,000 in student loans. $10,000 is the magic number. The reason is that many students can easily afford to pay back $10,000 in student loans, no matter their job. $10,000 does not force graduates into jobs they hate, but need to take simply to repay their loans. Furthermore, keeping things under $10,000 gives graduates what I call optionality. The ability to continuously experiment immediately after graduation in different roles, industries and careers. Graduates saddled with debt lose that option and instead are funneled into a rigid lifestyle of work, work, work simply to repay student loans. Notice that it wasn't until Dietrich repaid all of his student loans that he was able to experiment in different jobs, Namely by starting his own business. Dietrich could afford to take the risk of being his own boss, because after all, if things didn't work out, it wasn't like he was going to be sued by a bank for a missed student loan payment. He didn't have anyone to pay, which is exactly why he could afford to take that risk. Assuming massive student loans prevents this experimentation and is why debt burdens above $10,000 should be avoided. The second big takeaway concerns the gravity of student loans. So for Dietrich and Carly, one of the reasons why they took out so many student loans was that they just didn't know what it meant to be in debt for $155,000. To them, $155,000 might have, well, just have been $5,000 or even $500. At the time, $155,000 was just a number. To Dietrich and Carly, it didn't represent anything tangible. But it wasn't until after graduation that Dietrich and Carly realized the sacrifices they must undergo to simply make monthly student loan payments payments. Those sacrifices included living in a super tiny apartment without a fully functioning kitchen, Being unable to save for vacations, and being forced to postpone buying a home. In essence, Dietrich and Carly were forced to cut their lifestyle back to the bone to simply make student loan payments. Most striking, Dietrich and Carly didn't realize how many loans they had taken on until after graduation. Can you imagine any other life decision not knowing that you had just spent $155,000? There is no other decision like this in life except for college. And sadly, so many students fall into this trap. So the lesson for students is if you assume student loans, you will eventually discover the consequences of doing so. You might be able to disregard the implications until after graduation, but when graduation occurs, there's no avoiding it. As a result, why not learn about these consequences now so they can be avoided? Helping you answer these questions is exactly why I had on Carly and Dietrich. I wanted you to be able to hear from real people what it's like to graduate with lots of debt. The third and final takeaway that I want to leave you with is that one of the easiest ways to avoid massive student loans in the college game is to get the college selection decision right. Notice that Dietrich graduated with approximately $120,000 in student loans simply because he attended an out of state school. Going in state can dramatically cut your student loan obligations. And if you know what you're doing, going in state can occur even at a lesser ranked school with virtually no trade offs in your job prospects. For more ways on how to save on student loans, check out my book Hackiversity, which you can find on Amazon. That's all for now. I'll catch you all next time. If you want more Hackiversity and achieving more by doing less in college, you can subscribe to the podcast on itunes or grab the book on Amazon. For the show notes and the latest on hackiversity, check out kylewiny.com don't forget to follow Kyle on Twitter at kylewiny and on facebook@facebook.com hackaversity Till next time, Happy hacking.