#022: Dr. Mordecai Brownlee (St. Philip's College) on Community College vs University

Welcome to the Hackiversity Podcast, where your host, Kyle Whiney, deconstructs higher education inside the new economy. Get ready to learn how students can hack their way to the best results before, during, and after college. It's hacking time. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Hackiversity Podcast. Today, I'm excited to welcome onto the show Dr. Mordechai Mordecai Brownlee, known as Dr. Mordecai. Dr. Mordecai currently serves as the Vice President for student success at St. Philip's College, which is a community college located in San Antonio, Texas. Dr. Mordecai has a lot of experience working directly with students, having previously served as the Dean of Student and Chief Student Affairs Officer at the University of Charleston. Dr. Mordecai brings a great perspective to students thinking about attending community college and offers compelling reasons why students who aren't thinking about attending community college should do just that. So, without further ado, let's dig in. Dr. Mordecai, welcome to the show.

Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.

You're welcome. Dr. Mordecai, I'd like to set the stage by giving our audience some perspective on who you are and why you do what you do. So currently you are the Vice President of student success at St. Philip's College in San Antonio, Texas. What does a Vice President of Student Success do?

A whole lot is the short of it. But I would tell you that Vice President of Student Success is essentially what others may have heard when you hear Vice President of Student affairs or Vice President of Student Services, except the focus component of it all is student success. So that's all the onboarding, the matriculation of students all the way from what we call pre to 0. So that's from the K12 system, funneling themselves into college, the onboarding and ensuring that all the processes that we put in place ensure the student success on their academic pathway in preparation for their career pathway. And because of San Antonio, Texas, for those that are not aware are familiar with San Antonio, it is Military City, usa. We have three military bases in San Antonio, Joint Base San Antonio. And so also part of what I do is oversee the courses that are taught, the academic delivery of courses and the quality of courses and instruction and service that is provided at the Joint Base San Antonio sites as well as we have what's called the Good Samaritan Veterans Outreach and Transition center, where we provide services to veterans, their dependents, including active military, free of charge. So that's part of what I do as a Vice President of Student Success.

Cool. Well, my in laws will be very grateful that you gave a shout out to the joint base there in San Antonio, because they were actually stationed there, gosh, I don't know, 20 years ago. So.

Is that right?

Yeah, that's right. Small world. So that's awesome. Dr. Mordecai, so what you're saying is you do a lot of interfacing with seniors in high school and people who are approaching the college selection process generally, is that right?

That's correct. That's correct.

And what are some of the biggest challenges and questions that they approach you with?

Yeah, so, you know, it's not surprising, but one of the questions that just continue to hear from families is, where do we start? Where do we start? It's the idea of, I know that college is a, a way to promote social mobility, economic mobility for my family or my child, but where do we start? And so the easiest thing that I tell them, the first thing that I tell them is that, you know, you need to ask yourself, what is it that you desire? Are you desiring to enter into college, you know, with the opportunity of being, you know, as debt free as possible? Are you looking to stay local? You know, there's some key questions that if they ask themselves, and you know, sometimes they can answer those questions, sometimes they can't, sometimes they just, they just know, I want my kid to go to college. And so just trying to get at the heart of what is it that they're hoping to accomplish through college? Because sometimes families approach college with the wrong ideology or the belief that it's going to be a magic rabbit in a hat. And that's not necessarily the way that it works. There is a way to approach college in a way that can work best for that family, work best for that student. And so it's so important to have realistic goals when approaching college.

Yeah, I love that. One of the things that I do when I work with students is I emphasize that self awareness is the first step in the entire process. Figuring out what you want to do before you even figure out how to do it. So everyone is so obsessed with trying to get into Harvard or trying to get these great grades. But the preliminary question is, for what purpose? What is this going to get you at the end? So I love the idea that you are trying to orient students to that idea. But here's my question for you, Dr. Mordecai. A lot of 18 year olds that I work with say, Look, Kyle, I'm 18 years old. I just really don't know what I want to do. And so how do you encourage students or, you know, direct them when they say I'm only 18 years old, I don't have a clue about what I want to do with the rest of my life?

Yes, I was there, I was there. I remember being 17 years old, graduating from high school and asking myself, what's next? You know, some of the best advice that I received is what I share with others and that is that it start with the basic foundation. No matter what degree field you end up going into, whether that be the applied arts and sciences or, you know, applied technology, it all depends on which direction you end up going. You're still going to need a basic foundation of the academy, the foundation. So that's the English, that's the histories, those are the sciences, the social sciences, humanities, those things. And so just getting started, not breaking momentum. I tell students that, you know, in my personal opinion, the first two years of college is the hardest because you're going to essentially have to take courses that you may or may not have an interest in. It may or may not play to your natural strengths. And so it's going to call for a lot. It's going to be a challenge, however, by orienting yourself with the resources that are available at that institution, which is another thing to pick an institution that has an array of resources that speak to you and has an environment that will support you, who you are. But just getting started and having the idea that, you know what, I've got it. Because, you know, here's the thing, I'm in Texas, I don't know necessarily your listeners. I'm sure they're all over the nation and the world, but depending upon the state in which they live, there may already be some rules and regulations when it comes to college that says that they have to take English in a certain amount of time or they have to take math within a certain amount of time. And a lot of times it's within the first semester. So just getting started and then from there they begin to expose themselves to the liberal arts or the sciences and their interest. And that's when some sparks can begin to fly because they're being exposed to various curriculums.

So then what you're saying is, look, Even if you're 18 years old and you're not really sure what you want to do, go to college anyway, knock out your prerequisites, particularly the liberal arts and kind of general studies courses, and then that'll be a tool to provide this kind of self awareness about what you want to do for your next steps is that right now that's one.

Well, and that's one pathway. Right. And so with me, my mother was very instrumental in saying, you know what? Go to college, you're going to go to college. It almost in a sense wasn't a choice for me. I'm glad I decided to go that way. However, there are others that go directly to the workforce. They have an interest and they say, well, maybe if I get a job and maybe if I do a study abroad or maybe if I look at some other opportunities that it will spark something in me. And sometimes yes, sometimes no. You know, there's. College essentially is a tool. It's a means to an end. And so the question really becomes, what is it that you're hoping to accomplish? If college is something that you're saying, okay, I may not know what I want to do, but at least I want to get started. By all means, I encourage that. However, I've come across some students that say, I really don't know what I want to do, but my family is in need for finances. I need to be able to provide financial support to my family. Well, then let's have a conversation about what you can do to still be productive in approaching the workforce. But it's also going to give you a reality about some of the realities about our country and industry and the expectancies of having some form of credential in order to excel in some of these industries. So everyone's pathway is different.

Yeah. And if people are on the fence about do I go to college to figure out this self awareness or do I go into the workforce first to figure out the self awareness, how do you direct those students who are unsure which way to go for the first one or two years?

Yeah, you know, so one of the things I tell, and I also teach the summer we make my fourth year in teaching. And so one of the things that I tell students when I've had a chance to teach a freshman year seminar or course is my personal belief is, is that college is where you discover your own truth. And what I mean by that is, is that, you know, when you're growing up in your parents household or family household or whatever that reality may be for that student, you know, a lot of the ideology and approach to life is, is thrust upon you. You don't get a chance necessarily in some of these households to choose your thoughts on politics and economics and religion and society. You know, all of those views are essentially shaped for you. So when you come to College, then that's when, especially if you're going off to college, but certainly when you approach college, it's where you begin to battle with these ideologies that you've been taught. Because of the exposure of the various curriculums and environments which those curriculums are shared, you now begin to ask questions of what's true, what do I believe this is what I've been taught? Do I find value in what it is that I've been taught? And you begin to wrestle with that. So hopefully a student, if they're willing and they accept and jump full force into the experience, when they leave across that stage and walk across that stage with that credential, that award, they will have a better sense of who they are and their beliefs because they've had an opportunity to wrestle with those thoughts and have discussion with those thoughts and work through those things. In comparison to approaching college for the very first time as a 17, 18 year old, fresh, brand new, and you haven't had an opportunity to work through your own ideology of the mind. Mm, mm.

Cool. So Dr. Mordecai is St. Philip's College. That's a community college, correct?

It is, it is.

Okay, so I work with several community colleges here in Northern Virginia, which is where I live, and they have some really fantastic programs. Let me just kind of give you a few of the programs that they have. So they have virtual guaranteed admissions into traditional form four year in state universities only after spending two years at that community college, which is really incredible because we have some really hyper competitive universities here like University of Virginia. And so to get almost guaranteed admission into UVA is really incredible. They have another program that basically offers almost a guaranteed job placement at data centers, which are really booming. It's really booming industry here. And those jobs pay around $80,000 right out of graduation. So does your community college, Saint Phillips, offer similar programs that not many people know about but are just fantastic in that light, or what is the edge that St. Philip's College I guess just generally brings versus going to a traditional four year institution?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So great question. Great opportunities available there in northern West Virginia. Excuse me, Northern Virginia. I will say that St. Philip's College is one of five independently accredited colleges that make up the Alamo Colleges. And so one of the things that we have available to us is some strong partnerships with manufacturing industry. And so we call that the fame. It's known as Texas fame. And so these are organizations that either work in grocery manufacturing, Toyota, I'm thinking heb, some of these organizations where Students can test essentially to enter into these programs where they are paid to receive their classes and earn their credit. So as they're earning credit, they also are receiving workforce experience as well. And they're being invested in by these organizations. And once they're graduated, now they are entering into the workforce for these companies and beginning to make the 60 to 70 to $80,000. There's some other opportunities as well. Down here, certainly in the south, health care is huge, I'm sure all over the nation, it's booming and especially in some metropolitan areas. And so some of our students are able to take advantage of those health care health scientists opportunities where they're getting the exposures and then entering into the workforce, making the 50 to 60 to $70,000. There's also some other partnerships as well that we have with industry that we're expanding upon here entering into the 1920 school year where we are going to be looking at what's called Alamo Promise. We're going to begin that campaign where students that graduate from the Bexar county, which is the San Antonio, the primary San Antonio county, they can receive their education for absolutely free as long as they graduated from the Bexar County. And so we begin that campaign in 1920 and go live for fall 2020. So really excited about that. So when you talk about that value proposition, we hope to instill in students that by looking at community college as a viable option, you have an opportunity available to you that's going to provide some free to nearly free education and is going to have a direct tie into industry, local industry, which can begin to have a return on investment very early on.

Yeah, I think that's great. You know, you talk about value proposition, you highlighted a lot of the avenues that your college provides incredible value to students. And you know, I mentioned some of the incredible ways that community colleges in Northern Virginia provide incredible value to students. But still, at the end of the day, many students just say, look, I can't go to community college for no other reason other than it's a community college. And you know, that is a really hard, it's a stigma, right? And so it's a really hard challenge to get people to see through that stigma and see the value proposition at the end of the tunnel. Now, Dr. Mordecai, you mentioned that one of the things you believe about college, which so do I, and that is that college is a means to an end. So it's not an end in and of itself. And kind of how I see that is college will help you get to wherever you want to go. But, you know, when you walk across the podium and snag your diploma, that is not the end of the road for you. And I think that a lot of people think that it is. You know, I hear buzzwords like, I'm now educated or I'm now enlightened. And these kind of words indicate that the job is done for them. That, you know, they're 22 years old and they just accomplished everything that they need to do, and they're seeing college as an end in and of itself rather than a means to an end, rather than a tool to help them get somewhere. So how do we orient? And before I ask you this question, maybe I should just apply to what I was saying, and that is this means to an end versus an end in and of itself, I think, is one of the ways that people aren't able to see through the stigma, because they say this diploma is the only thing that really matters to me. And it can't say community college, because that's how important the diploma by itself is to me. So how do we get students to see through that stigma and see the real value proposition that community colleges all across the country offer?

Yeah, so I think it's important. And this is a conversation that's going on right now through social media, you know, in the community college stigma. You know, it's. It's community college. Let me, Let me go here. College itself, for too long, especially when I think about Generation Millennials and Generation Xers, the messaging that was told to us was that, get an education and you'll become successful. Get a degree, you'll be successful. And all of a sudden, these images of success in wealth and money and cars and houses, and somehow we begin to see that, well, if I get this piece of paper and hang it on this wall, and it's from a prestigious organization or prestigious company, excuse me, institution, that all of a sudden that the riches will just come to me and the opportunities will come to me, and it's false. I tell folks all the time that, that we, the generation Exes and millennials, we were the first to essentially be generations, really the back end of Generation X, in my belief. And certainly millennials were the first pathway generation, essentially, when it came to education, you were fed this belief that if I, if I get A, then I will automatically get B. And so you have all of these highly credentialed, full of student loan debt individuals trying to hit the workforce, and then they're not getting hired and. Or they're Having to land jobs in areas in which their degree focus wasn't even, even centered around. And it's just a bit been a very interesting reality over the 20 years for these individuals. And so with that I say ask yourself, what is it that you're hoping to accomplish through college? So being a means to an end, if it's an opportunity to receive a quality education and has the biggest return on investment, then community college is one of those opportunities to truly consider. It's certainly the route in which I went. I was able to earn my associate's degree in a year and a half and also had a half a semester where I was able to have an internship. And so I was able to get some true, some honest working opportunity experiences along with my associate's degree and then transfer that right on into my junior year, into my other, my senior institution. So I think a part of the reality is that the degree doesn't create the opportunity, the individual creates the opportunity. The degree is meant to provide you with the basics, or at least a survey of knowledge which is going to say this person has been exposed to these various elements of curriculum, but you still have to build upon that. And so students have to understand the strategy of education. It truly is a means to the end. And so it's about surrounding yourself with experiential curricular opportunities, co curricular opportunities along with the curricular opportunities to ensure that you're developing yourself holistically as a well round individual. So when you show up to the interview, then you're able to truly speak the language of the industry and say I can add value. You know, we can't look at these degrees and these names, names of these institutions on the wall like brand name clothing and think that the Pradas and the Gucci's of the higher education industries will automatically give me access to an abundance of opportunity. Maybe I would, maybe at one point in time, but certainly I haven't seen that occur in modern time. For some it does, for some it doesn't. But I think it has more to do with the relationships and what they have versus the name that may be hanging on the wall. And the reality is, is while that name on the wall, while if you're willing to invest in that name that you hold to be so true and dear, while it may give you the opportunity for an interview, it may be, it's not. Maybe it may give you the opportunity for the interview. And it's what you know the company is looking for, your knowledge base, your skills, your abilities. And so when it comes down to that in value add. Well, community college is going to give you a basic foundation. You can then take that debt free in a lot of cases and then move on to a senior institution and then make a name for yourself if that's what you so desire, or take that community college award and move right into the industry. But we need to educate our students more and more to understand that it is not a magic one. That what's hanging on that wall that's going to create the opportunity. It's the person that creates the opportunity.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. Kind of one of my, one of my theses, Dr. Mordecai, which is I think a slight tweak to what you're saying. So I'm curious about your thoughts on this, is there are still a lot of Gucci's. Well, there still are some Gucci's out there, some brand name colleges that go a lot, that go really far. So like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, those brand names have a lot of signaling power and therefore a lot of value. And so my thesis is that for those schools, those elite schools, it makes sense to pay up for them. But those are a very small handful of schools. And there's some debate about what constitutes an elite college versus what doesn't. But generally speaking it's the very creme de la creme. But outside of that, then there's everyone else and there's not meaningful distinctions between everyone else. And so since there's not a meaningful distinction between everyone else, that is the reason to go value hunting. And that's one of the reasons why I encourage so many students that aren't going to Harvard to strongly consider community college because it does provide so much value outside of those elite schools. So do you also kind of see the, the Harvard's and the Yales as kind of being a Gucci brand and a League of their own? Or do you kind of see them all as in just one kind of big pot and it's just truly all about the biggest bang for your buck when you graduate?

You know, I'm somewhere in between. Now let me say this total respect to the Harvard 10 yales, right? These are elite instit and certainly are doing some amazing work. So let me start there. I have a friend of mine, won't say the name. I remember this. He was accepted in the Yale, earned his degree from Yale, came back home, could not land a job. And I mean he was on interviews again, I mean interviews galore. But could not land the job. It got to the point to where he. It was about two years in and he said, you know what, I don't know what it is that I'm experiencing in the market at this time. I have a Yale degree, can't land a job. So he decided to go to Harvard. He got into a master's program in the Harvard, then received his master's from Harvard, came back to the workforce, and then finally landed the job. The interesting thing was the job that he landed certainly wasn't the amount of money that he was expecting to make, and it didn't trump the amount of debt that he had incurred by any means. I mean, it was humbling. But he has now made his way through the industry and he, and he's doing well for himself. So it's because of watching him go through that experience. I think for me, as his friend and his part of his support team was to say, you know what, for me, that was my first exposure to say, wow, it isn't a magical. It isn't as magical as I thought. Now granted, these institutions do prepare their students to succeed, but so many other institutions do the same, if not more so. I do give credit to the Harvard's, the Yales, the elites, the Ivy box all means thank you for what you do for the industry and for education. However, I would tell a student that at this particular point in time, economically, from a societal standpoint, you need to ask yourself, the value are you looking to, you know, what is the amount of value that you're looking to gain from your experience? Are you looking to be in the Ivy environment? Is that where you find most value? Are you looking for the opportunity to have a biggest return on investment, Investment in a fairly quicker amount of time? And so there are some better options out there in that regard for those families. All depends on the realities that they may be facing.

Yeah. One of the things that I've been really thinking about, because I've been living it out in my own personal life, is debt. So I've really never been in debt until I went to law school, which is kind of very ironic. But be that as it may, debt really is limiting in a lot of regards. And the way I kind of think about debt is it just equals risk. So if you pay up by going to Harvard and taking out all these student loans, if things work out for you, that's great. But if they don't work out for you, kind of like your friend, now you have all this debt and so the risk kind of materialized and now you have to kind of bear the burden of having risks that didn't turn out all that well. And so, yeah, I mean, I totally get how one of the safer plays and maybe more certain plays would be to say, look, I'm just going to minimize my student loans. I'm going to trade off a Harvard or a Yale, even if I can get in. And I'm just simply going to go to a college where I can get my degree and then go into the workforce right after that. And so I, I think that is a good play too. You know, it's like you're saying, Dr. Mordecai, it's these, these are complicated questions. They're, they're complex and the answers really depend on the individual. And so, yeah, that's why I love chatting about this. Yeah.

You know, and one of the things I will say is too, there is, you know, to the families in which you have a chance to work with Kyle, I would say that this is where it becomes scary for some families. Right? It becomes one of those, well, how do I take a step forward to know that I'm making the right move? Everyone's situation is different. And so where there is opportunity for Harvard, for Yale, for Ivy League, by all means, I encourage those families. Go and seek out those opportunities for your children. Look at those opportunities, look at the environment and ask, does it feel like home? Does this look like a place that's going to be vested in my child and what it is that we hope to accomplish? By all means, take a look at that. However, I would also tell that same family, if that's not a reality for you, then let's talk about some realities that are. Is a private institution, is a liberal arts private institution, is a research institution, is a community college going to be the first step towards these other opportunities? They should see community colleges as a gateway, a strong opportunity to build a basic foundation in the academics and then to move on to these senior institutions. So it is not a one size fits all. I would encourage each and every one of these families to take a look, look beyond the brochures and know that all private schools are not created equal. All private institutions are not created equal. All institutions public are not created equal. You really have to take a look at the resources that they're providing. Also the program of study. Take a look who's teaching the courses. Have they been practitioners? Do they have an understanding look at the curriculum? Does it expose your student to some true lab working environments or some hands on working environments fairly early on in their academic program versus some of these Programs, you may never get an opportunity to work in the field while you're in the program, or you won't see the light of day of some of these labs until the senior year. Well, you mean to tell me I've got to wait three years years to start working in a lab and working in some of these environments or internships, externships. So there are a lot of factors to look at, but there is a lot of opportunity out there. Yeah.

Amen. Great. Dr. Mordecai, we just have a few minutes left here, so I want to transition to the final segment of the show, which is the rapid fire question section. And that's where I offer up some quick hitting questions. But that doesn't necessarily mean that your answer has to be quick hitting. Okay, so my first question for you is. Suppose that you are Dr. Mordecai, the 18 year old high school senior, preparing to graduate high school in four months. But this time you are graduating in 2019. So where are you going to concentrate most of your energy in an effort to best get to the next step?

Oh man, I'm going to focus on persisting, persisting with my, with my desire and my desire at that particular time. When I was 18 19, I really thought I was going to be in television, radio. And you know what I would still tell that 1819 year old self, still go to college, still get involved and begin to look for opportunities where you can, where you can outside the classroom, where you can begin to get that experience again, it's that outside the classroom experience that can really bring life to what's going on in the classroom. So I would tell that, that 18 year old me go to college, get involved, go to class, do your best, utilize the resources available to you and then begin to go out there and have fun and look for opportunities to chase your opportunities, your interests and dreams.

Cool. I like that. So get internships, get take jobs, network with people, those sorts of things.

Absolutely, absolutely. Again, creating the opportunity for yourself.

Yeah, love that.

Cool.

Next question. What is one thing you want a college sophomore listening to this podcast to know.

To know that now is the time where you, you've already had a freshman experience, so you, you are advancing on your academic pathway. Now is the time to really think about where your interest lies. If you haven't already had that conversation, your career interest. And know that you can begin now more than ever shopping around, looking at opportunities for yourself in terms of where your career interest may lie. And know this, know that it is okay to lean towards your natural Abilities and skills, get that initial degree and then your master's is where, if you so choose to go down that path, is where you can begin to hone deeper into areas of concentration. You know, a lot of times these four year degrees are just surveys of knowledge. It's going to expose, give general exposure. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're ready to go in and master that, that particular industry. So enjoy the process, shop around, take a look, lean towards your interest or your natural ability, and above all, earn that degree, earn that award.

Cool. Dr. Mordecai, last question for you. If you could recommend something to a college student in the form of a tweet, what would it be?

If I could, man, ask that question one more time for me, my friend.

If you could recommend something to a college student in the form of a tweet, what would it be?

Hmm, that's a hard question, Kyle. Believe in yourself. Believe in yourself. Be careful where you seek your validations. By that I mean that, that you have those that will tell you that you're great, you're awesome, you're going to be amazing, you're going to be successful. There are those that are going to criticize that may even tell you that you won't amount to much. And I would tell that individual, be very careful where you seek your validations with the same people that praise you or the same folks that will criticize you or even say hateful things to you. And so it's so important to believe in who you are. It's so important to find things that are going to feed you as a person and an individual, your mind, and find strength in those things. Because while we have our close friends, we have our family, we have loved ones, sometimes they can be that support for us, sometimes they won't. So believe in yourself. Be careful when you seek your validations.

Awesome. I love that. Dr. Mordecai, we'll leave it there and I'll give you a chance to wrap up here. But one last thing before we do, I just want to give a shout out to San Antonio and Texas in general. I rode my bicycle across America in 2014 and Texas was by far my favorite state. You guys have some really awesome people in Texas and gosh, I don't know, so many good memories from Texas. But the barbecue is amazing and I can't wait to get back soon.

Come on down, man.

Dr. Mordecai, thanks for coming on. Where can people learn more about you and anything else you find interesting? Interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, thanks for the opportunity. Kyle, I would say I have a web site. It's its Dr. V R Mordecai. M O R D E C A I. It's Dr. Mordecai. Calm. I post information there, I post videos there, content there. Come check me out.

Cool. I will put all that stuff in the show notes so everyone can easily click and find that information. Dr. Mordecai, thanks again.

Hey, thank you.

One major takeaway that I want to emphasize. Prior to wrapping up at a 3,000 foot level, Dr. Mordecai and I discuss how college is a means to an end. That's much different than college being an end unto itself. Here's what I mean. If college is merely a means to an end, which it is, that means you don't start with college in life. Instead, your life starts by asking where do you want to go? College simply fits within that answer. But the question doesn't start with college itself. Yet so many people who make this mistake believe that college is an end until itself. These people believe that simply by graduating, they have completed their life's work. They've made it to the top. Everything else is just icing after that. Here's how this mistake has practical consequences. If you believe that college is an end to itself, you will pay significantly more for college tuition. Because who cares if you're in debt? You have a college degree and that's all that matters, according to these people. But to really succeed, as Dr. Mordecai stated, we need to ask how college can work for the student. And going to community college is a terrific option for so many students because community college blends together affordability, job prospects, and practical training. That's a rare cocktail these days. In fact, when I wrote my book Hackiversity, I was surprised how many students I interviewed said that they wish they had gone to community college in the first place instead of a traditional four year program. That's why if you're a student listening to this episode, or if you're a parent whose son or daughter is preparing to go to college, you should strongly consider community college. That's all for now and until next time, happy hacking. If you want more Hackiversity and our optimized approach to hacking college, subscribe to this podcast on itunes or grab the book on Amazon. For the show notes and the latest on Hackiversity, check out Hackaversity.com don't forget to follow @Hackiversity on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Until next time, happy hacking.