How to Build a STRONG Team with Wizehire CEO Jay Niblick

All right, welcome back to Real Estate Business Builders. We've had Jay on the podcast, I think maybe two or three times previously. And, you know, we each come into this conversation with, like, what's going on in our businesses that, you know, can help folks that want to grow and scale. And, you know, Jay, one thing I've really appreciated about you is just your, your willingness to kind of share your heart around, you know, your true passion and superpower is, you know, just people and understanding them and feeling forward. And so that's where the conversation is going to be today. But co founder of wisehire, which is an awesome tool, helps do as good as any tool to figure out. Yeah, got the. Got the gear to back it up. Really helps figure out how people are wired and how people can fit together and build teams that have all the superpowers, but they can play nice. So we're going to get into that a little bit. And then you also founded or co founded Intermetrics, which is a lot of the IP that's behind these disk personality tests and all that stuff. You were the, you didn't really love it, but everyone would go to Tony Robbins site, right?

Just.

Everyone was like, yeah, I just go to Tony Robbins site. I think they fixed that, that loophole. But so tell us, give us like a little bit of an intro. I know Wise Hire is on a tier in terms of growth, and then we'll have this conversation. You know, you kind of teed it up as in the middle. You know, if you want to grow and scale outside of a solopreneur, which is most real estate agents, you've got to at least introduce one other person and that's not going to be your personality. And so for everyone, this conversation is going to be applicable. But give us a little bit of an intro. Fill in the gaps that I had there in the intro, and then we'll get into the nuts and bolts of adding people and growing.

Yeah, no problem. So, yeah, 99 started in metrics. That's where I've written all the assessments that we own. So the disk index, the values index, the attribute index, ohcomports, adv, all that stuff. We're licensing that to independent management consultants and coaches around the world. So I think we're like over 2000, 2500, something like that. And maybe 50 world, 50 countries, 50 worlds. Someday we'll say that depends on how well Elon does the. The reason behind Wise Hire was Sid and myself looked at the gap and those management consultants wouldn't want to come to your House and do anything in your shop for less than five or ten grand. Right. So when it came to the small businesses out there, we saw this neglection. They just. Nobody was really caring for them. Everything was for big business. All the research is in big business, all that stuff. But like medicine, you can't say that Pediatrics is just small adults. It's completely different medicine. And so the rules and things that apply for the SMBs, and I call them MSBs micro and small Business, it's the solopreneur, it's the person with three employees. You know, where do they go? And so we created wisehire as an automated way of having like a consultant in a box so you can still use the assessments to understand your candidates.

Right.

We just pick that one vein of hiring and recruiting, understand what their superpowers are, map them to a benchmark where we've studied best performers and said, here's what the best performer superpowers look like. Their D scores or that this, their I scores are that, you know, and then it automatically combines them. But the, the algorithms do it. So you can do that for unlimited people, unlimited candidates at a fraction of the cost is bringing a human in to do it. So Wise Hire is good. I don't normally like talking about it because it sounds braggadocious, but I guess you were saying beforehand we got to be authentic. Right? I was going to be in a different location, but this is me. The office is under construction. So you get what you get. Right. If it helps to understand, you know, why should we listen to Jay? Does he just pontificate hypothetically about some assessment or psychometrics or crap like that? No. So Wise Hire, we're currently around 259 evaluation with 140 employees. And we started it with just myself and Sid. So it is feasible, it is possible you learn a metric button of lessons in doing that. We just finished up our Series B earlier this year. So institutional investors, and we're still going to double headcount year after year, and we're. We're skyrocketing revenue. So if you really understand the inner workings of people is the topic today, I think that's crucial. Right? I think it's probably the biggest shift you have to make. And you nailed it. It's a great intro. So I can give it back to you if you want, but we can pick up on that intro because it was perfect. Is you're gonna bring on somebody. Not. Maybe not, but you're probably gonna bring on somebody if you want to grow. And we are Shooting for the stars and hopefully they ain't you. Yeah, that's the first mistake we see people make, right? How many times have you seen the highly, you know, high D type a go getter bias towards actions off the roof guy go out or lady go out and go, I need someone else to help me. And they find someone who's just like that, like, man, I love you. You talk like I do, you think like I do. And then they go, now do all the stuff I hate to do and I'm not good at it and it doesn't work.

And I like the way you said, you know, because I heard this stat, I don't know if it's true. Maybe you know, in, in real estate. So a couple million agents in the US only, only 15% have any form of leverage in terms of a person like a part time administrator or so. I don't know if that stat is true, but it probably rings pretty true. 10 to 15% only. And I love the way you call. I've never really heard msb, so I don't know if you've coined that term, but from now on I'll just attribute it to you. But really, I don't even think agents have a mindset that they're, that they own a business, you know, so this whole concept of, you know, so maybe I definitely want to get to like, you know, if you want any freedom whatsoever or consistency or repeatability or, you know, to know that your business is going to run, you have to, you have to hire somebody. It's not even an option. There's no option to not hire someone if you're not where you want to be financially. So, so a hundred percent of agents in the US must, you know, use a tool like wise hire so they can avoid, you know, you guys have all the profiles and stuff built out by position. And just for the one position of administrative assistant, like there's a right and a wrong way to go about it. So let's kind of start there because I think if you're running a bigger team, you know, and you're listening to the podcast, you're still always going to be hiring. You're always going to be making mistakes in hiring, I can promise you that. And so, and the administrative role is going to be the main person that helps us get leverage and to grow and scale. So maybe talk a little personal experience. I love this concept of in the middle because I know I was not that person. It was like you come all the way, like you said before we hit record you come all the way to me, you know, and, and because I'm not changing, I'm not going to change my communication style.

I'm the boss, right?

Yeah. Why?

Why, why should I move?

Yeah. So, so, so maybe using wisehire and that growth trajectory and your personal experience, maybe talk through, you know, how this in the middle concept, specifically as it relates to hiring someone that's a good match for you and how do you work well together. So they're going to want to stay in your world for a long time.

Yeah, glad to. And I, if it helps, we started specializing in real estate when in the beginning of Wise Hour. That's all we did. That's where we got our kickstart. And I happen to own founded with two tremendous partners a ReMax here in the area. So, you know, we're still deep into understanding the intricacies of running a real estate business. It's still at our heart, it's where we started. So we understand that. So the concept we're talking about, to give it a context, is it's hiring, but it's also management, right? It's how do I interact? So think collaborate, communicating and collaborating. So everybody that's listening, go to Lars to understand all of the other intricacies of growing your practice, your team, whatever you're looking to do. But when it comes to hiring, you're spot on, Lars. It's. You're gonna need somebody and that doesn't have anything to do with real estate or anything else. If you want to grow your business, you can't do everything. It's trading your time for their money is an old phrase. And if you were to be put to put on your consulting hat for a minute, why would you, the person who, let's say Your value is 500 an hour, when you're doing your genius, as we call it, right? When you're in your zone, if you're selling, you should be knocking out $500 an hour. Why would you stop selling to do a $40 an hour, a $20 an hour job, you know, a 35, 40,000, $50,000 a year salaried employee who can be doing the admin work, the detailed work. So most people hopefully understand and appreciate this. That's why teams developed, right? I can go get listings or I cannot go to get a new listing and go off and try to show 20 houses to the Joneses. You know, the ROI doesn't even compare, right? So you see showing agents specialists, you see, you know, buyer agents coming into teams, that diversification around all of these different jobs is because they can do it better, faster and you're freed up. So we take that and say, well, the person who you're looking to bring into any role should be freed up to do their most authentic work. Now what's authentic mean? Back into the personality assessments we use disc, right? It's an old 80 plus year old behavioral model, D, I, S and C for those that may not be familiar with it, created from Marston at Harvard. This is our interpretation of the science, one of the more contemporary ones out there. And that's natural, it's universal, it's observable. And every human on the planet has these same behavioral traits. If you want to pretend that they don't exist, you're going to tell somebody, look, I need your square peg to fit in this round hole. That's another way people have said it for eons, right? That's the problem. So you need to find somebody who is working in a role that best allows them to just behave you the way behave the way they always naturally do. So for those that whether without familiarity with this, maybe they're super fast paced and they want to go, go, go, maybe they're very deliberate and they want to think about every decision. Which of those best serves the job. Sales, for example, really low D, very high C, Conscientious, detail oriented people who hate chaos, who hate flexibility. Put yourselves those are listening back into the last sales process you were in. It's not structured, there's no script, it's not ordered. It turns 90 degrees on a dime in a second. When the listing potential listener says, well I want to do this or the buyer says I want to do that, you have to dance. You've got to be as flexible in jiu jitsu and you know as you can. Administrative assistance, right. Running through all the paperwork to make sure everything's done well requires the exact opposite. It does need that rigidity. It needs somebody who is very detail oriented, who wants to make very slow decisions without change in standards and policies and procedures and compliance. So one person can do that job but not the other. It's just based on what their traits are. So the main topic today, and I'll shut up and let you ask, is if I'm leading that individual from hiring them to leading them, those styles might differ drastically. And the most common trend that we found was without knowing that the leader, the person with the authority tends to assume, even subconsciously, this is how I prefer to communicate and collaborate. I want to come in, I want to kick the door open, I want to go 30,000ft, nothing below that. I want three bullet points and I want you to get up out of your seat and get the heck out there and start doing it. You know, right now that approach might work with somebody else who's like that, so maybe another listing agent on their teams, like, done. But if they're talking to somebody who's doing a job that's very different, likely if it's a good hire, the behaviors are very different. And so expecting them to adapt to that is usually what causes breakdowns in communication and collaboration. And then the person's stressed out, they can't get their job done. They feel like you don't respect them. And it doesn't work to go the other way either. And now everybody on this call who's in sales appreciates that piece. We adapt to the client, right? If the prospect wants a thousand bullet points with details and minutia, if we're making the sale, we have to adopt 100% of that. It doesn't work to say, look, I don't prefer that kind of detail. Let's just stop right here. You're not going to make the sale. So what happens with two people is they have to meet in the middle. And so the words today to write down are in the middle. And we can talk about how that, you know, how that works to help develop a business in sales. I've actually got people who are saying, this has actually made a wonderful difference between me and my husband, or me and my wife, or me and my kids, or, you know, it's basic human communication style and leadership style at work.

And I just got off a coaching call. So I've taken on four, one on one coaching clients. I was out of the sort of daily coaching, but I wanted to get back into it. And I'm working with a husband and wife where the wife is the hunter. So she goes out and kills everything. And he cuts it up meticulously. And they have a team. And so. But I wanted to touch on something and I definitely want to get into like the actual process of in the middle because I think it's going to be really valuable, you know, so let's say that 8515 is correct that 85% of agents do not have an administrator. And I made up this next statistic. So it's based on just me making it up. But I think 85% of what an agent does, a typical agent is administrative in nature. So you have, you know, 85% of agents don't have any admin support. And most of the things they're doing you can do for like far below $50 an hour. This is a valuable exercise if you struggle with this. You know, even the statement around like how could anyone possibly show homes to my client? Like that's the essence of the job of a real estate agent. It's like, well, you just need to decide if you're making the kind of money you want, working the hours that you want to work, and enduring a level of stress that's manageable. And typically like showing homes on a Friday night at 7:30 in the summer. It's not something that I wanted to do, but there are agents out there that love showing homes and they're, they're not attached to young kids and you know, they, they'll love to make 25 bucks an hour consistently showing and honor the relationship with, with you and your, with your clients. So. Oh yeah, this is all mindset, right? It's just deciding. And the first time I did this calculation, it was aspirational. I came off my first 10 months in real estate. I made, I netted on 250 gross, which is a lot of money. I sold a lot of homes, 27 homes in 10 months. I netted 37,000. So I wasted a lot of money and I had a really bad split with my broker. This is before I knew anything. And I worked about 2000 hours, which is $18.50 an hour. I left a corporate job where I made a hundred dollars an hour, but there was no, like, I couldn't just make a thousand, right? I couldn't just decide. And then I committed mentally. And this is something everybody has to do if they want to make more money in less time with less stress. I committed mentally. I'm going to make a half a million and I'm going to work 40 hours a week. So half a million divided by 2000 was $250 an hour. And then everything I did was seen through a completely new lens where I was just pissed off most of the time because I was doing $20 an hour work. So if you don't really understand that, you know, then, then you're not in the game of being a business builder. Probably want to turn off the podcast because it's, it's literally the name of the podcast.

But which, there's nothing wrong with that, right? You know, I mean, if that's what they want to do, that's what's right for them. They, they, some people want to be the solopreneur. They don't own a business, they own a job. And they have to be honest about that. And I'm not saying that in a derogatory way. That's awesome. You know, it's. It's that if that's what they want, but inextricably, if you. I can't agree with you more. If you want to build a company, a business, you will not do it alone. And that's not owning a business, that's owning a job. So you at least have to get one person. And yes, in real estate, many times the first one is an admin or a transaction coordinator. If they get big enough to be even specific to that or virtual, somebody is contracted. But normally you get to the point where you want to bring them in and make them a dedicated employee. And understanding what is that. Here's the problem with interviewing, right? There's about 120 different cognitive biases. But one of the cognitive biases influences interviews in a bad way. When I'm interviewing somebody with a drastically different personality that's needed, I need that transaction coordinator. Let's take it past even a broader admin and say, this is all you do. And they're basically like an accountant. You know, they're a quality assurance person. They are rigid, defined, disciplined. You know, every last box has to be checked for compliance. That personality is 99.9% of the time completely opposite from the person who's in charge, the lead listing agent or the lead agent, depending on the size. When you're interviewing that individual subconsciously, that personality doesn't jive with your. They don't answer questions the way that you would. They want to move in a different pace, at a different pace than you do. They may be a lower eye, so they're a little more introverted than your high. I. You know, and you're like thinking, why aren't I clicking with this person? I was joking about football game or the fishing trip or my kid's birthday. And they're like. And it actually undermines your confidence in that interview. You're not even aware of it many times, but you'll walk away going, man, I just didn't feel is a common phrase. I didn't feel quite jazzed about them. No, but you'll get jazzed about the person who's just like you. But then that would you. The question to ask yourself is, okay, they're like you, but would you want to do the job that you're asking them to do? So having systems, having some metrics, making those intangible things Tangible helps give you a reference point to say, okay, they look like all of the other admins in the country or transaction coordinators or showing agents or whatever, you know, receptionists, directors of first impression, whichever company you're with. So that helps to do that and.

Talk a little bit. And I don't know if you guys went deeper on this, but when you guys presented at one of our intensives, I think it was the one in Charleston where a hurricane came through. So that was exciting. But they presented scorecards for the purposes of interviewing. Did you guys go any deeper on that? Is that still a tool that you guys are using?

Yeah, it's in a different version now, but it's built into our customer interview guide. So in the dashboard where you would see all of the applicants with rankings stacked of excellent, very good, average or poor, based on comparing them to the top performers around the country for that job, you can go further in. And there's a whole wide variety of different tools in our applicant tracking system. It's native to us, we built it. And there's an interview guide. So it actually stacks up different questions for a phone interview or a screening interview or a deeper dive interview or a multi team interview or, you know, so all those are in there for those that may not have the most experience interviewing and asking questions. You know, I mean, a structured interview is very accurate. Lots of studies support that. An unstructured interview is no more predictive at gauging whether they're going to be a good fit or not than the resume itself. Just shooting the, you know what, Casually getting to know them is a nice part of it. But then you really need to get into some structured questions that are designed to probe for strengths and weaknesses and correlation to the job they're going to do and have done in the past. Behavioral interviewing, all that stuff is in there. Otherwise you're kind of just like, what do I ask? You might as well. Statistically you might as well just look at the resume and say based on what they sent in, I think they'll be a great fit for the job.

Yeah, let's end the conversation with this. So let's talk about some personal examples or like in the trenches of building a business in your experience, how is this in the middle played out? You know, because I know I can sort of be super stressed. Everything's chaotic around me and I'm triggered and, and I think everyone should serve me, you know, just truth. That's how my first five years of business building went. I didn't have great coaching around leading and managing people. So what advice would you give somebody that is in that, like, top producer, they're starting a team, they're triggered and stressed, and they think everyone, like, like I did, and not an egotistical kind of way, but like, can't you guys see I'm drowning? I'm selling more homes than any of you and I'm running the team. I'm managing the overhead. Like, I'm dying over here. And, you know, what advice would you give for someone, you know, as they're sort of entering the process of growing and scaling as it relates to this in the middle, like, you know, meeting people in the middle so that you can actually get stuff done and build a. Build a real business.

Yeah. And we've talked about, you know, okay, first off, being aware that you have a need. Right. You covered that. You know, you're going to need somebody else. You're going to have to depend on somebody else. Scary as that sounds, but it gets. You know, the water warms up once you're in in a little while or the shoes wear in. But that. That's a hard jump for many people to make is I'm letting go. If you've ever had kids, you're sending them off to school. You know, you're not in charge of them anymore. You put them on a bus or dropped them off in the school. So that takes. That's the first hurdle to get over is admitting you need them and then letting go and hiring somebody. The biggest mistake we make we see made, myself included, is after we hire them, we don't continue to use that same understanding. So if you're using our system or any system to understand the personality and the strengths and the natural talents that you're needing, more often than not, people leave that at the front door. They greet the person, they'll say, welcome to the team. You're hired. And then they kind of put it in a file somewhere. But you need to carry. So in the middle is about taking that understanding and carrying it forward into every interaction you have with that individual. Because you're going to the very next day go back to that same bias that you have. That's what's natural for you. That's your authenticity. As I wrote in one of my books, you are just going to just do you is what I always sign. You know, let yourself do what you naturally would want to do. And what's your proclivities for action. Let them do the same thing. So it comes down to once they're hired, if You're a big fan of, like, servant leadership, green leech work. Other than the heel part, we follow it very religiously here. And your job is to give that person everything they need to develop and grow, period. So that's the best coaching advice I can give or consulting advice, whatever you want to call it. If you're leading people, their job is not to serve you. And I'm looking you in the eye right now because I know you know this. But those that are listening or watching, if you don't agree with that statement, I would stay a solopreneur and own your own job. Because I guarantee you, and I've been executive coaching for 23 years, if you approach an employee as they are there to serve you, it's not going to work very well. I've seen it countless times. They'll roll over, they'll be not engaged, they'll not feel happy, they won't do a great job, they'll quietly quit. As the new phrase on the street in the last month or so, your job is, how do I support them? Now you're creating strategic growth. So everything they do and succeed in benefits you and your company if you have a smart structure. So when it comes to serving them, to get them the best way to do their job and be happy, you got to meet them in the middle. And all that simply means is if I'm a super high D and they're a super low D, I can't stand there like we said in the beginning and go, we're going my speed. I have to start adapting my behavior when I work with them. And they have to have a conversation with you to understand they're down here, you're up here, or vice versa. And they have to know that we're going to make you a little stretched at times. And I'm going to stretch at times to try and close that gap. Because those polar opposites are where communication conflicts happen. We call them in channel. Now, the psychology behind that is if I'm not aware of this, I see your behavior and I interpret. Here's the quote if anyone wants to write it down. I interpret your behavior through my own emotional filters. Now, what's that mean? I'm a high eye. I'm in front of an audience of 20 people and I'm up there going, rah, rah, you know, let's go, let's go. I'm talking, talking, and I'm excited. My hands are moving. And I see a person in the front row, third seat over. They're a Very introverted person. Now, I don't know that, but I see their expression, I see their behavior and I interpret that behavior through my emotional filter and go, well, in order for me to sit there like a bump on a log, I must be thinking, insert some thought. What would you think? You know, like, this guy's a moron. I'm bored, man. I hate this. You know, I'm definitely not excited. I assume that's the emotions driving the behavior because that would be my emotions. And what do I do? I respond accordingly. I'm thinking in my head while I'm talking, this guy hates me, man. How do I win him over? And I move over in front of that table and I maybe ask him a question. I'm trying to get him to engage in that person's head. They might be thinking, this is the greatest thing I've ever heard in my life. But as a very introverted moai, they're just, you know, not going to express that. And it happens in every channel. The super low D thinks the high D is super brash, irresponsible and doesn't even bother to think. The super high D thinks the low D is afraid and cowardly and not willing to just jump and go for it. You know, Come on, have some guts, man. So when we meet in the middle, we have to start by saying, I understand your profile, I want you to understand mine. Super simple. Sit down, talk through them, talk about communication preferences, styles. And then when we meet, remind yourselves, especially you, the leader. I know who I'm getting ready to meet with. They're a unique person. They're different. I need to remember to slow down or speed up. I need to say, look, I know I didn't give you enough detail. Will this suffice? I know I'm asking you to move faster than you'd like to. Missed as high s, but we kind of need to. At least I'm justifying why. I'm trying to explain that we're doing something in a way that's not naturally comfortable for them to do.

Yeah, that's awesome. A couple, couple things that I want to add. What we did on our team was we had and I, yeah, I know that wise hire we got it from, Wise hire was that everyone had a laminated sort of like this is who I am essentially with their disc profile and all the, what you just said, all their communication preferences and you know, whatever byproduct of the test was we put it on a one page laminate and then it, it, it's, it was by everyone's station. So in sales it was like right. You know, they're, they're at their prospecting station and it's right there. So when, when they're communicating an admin comes to talk to a salesperson. You know, it's bullet points. It's like, you know, let's.

Yeah.

And vice versa. When, when you know, don't bark at your admin. Right. Because they're there to serve you. Um, so that's really helpful. And then there's a really good book. I don't know if you read it. It was called the Way of the Shepherd. Did you read that book?

I have not.

It was like that. That one book really changed my mindset. It's about, it's about. It's a fable and this guy sort of guides of, of someone that just got a management job and he's like, will you mentor me? He's like, yeah. And they spend all their time like this guy is a billionaire but he has like sheep and he, all his lessons are around like you know, a flock that is well cared for versus like, you know, sheep that are not and diseased. And it was really, really powerful. I love fables because they kind of drive the points home. Yeah, that's anyone struggling with this because it goes through all the stuff when you have to encourage, when you have to reprimand, when you have to, you know, what does it look like to really care for and the investment and so that's a really good resource. But what's the best way that people can get in your world with Wisehire?

I mean you can go to the website wisehire.com, notice we spell it with a Z which is not the wise way to spell it correctly but it's just wisehire.com with a Z instead of an S. My email is Jay J a y@wisehire.com Glad to take any emails, answer any questions, provide any support we can. Um, but I think, you know, the, the takeaway is seek to understand what the job if we really bullet it breaking it down into bullets. Number one, appreciate you need somebody. Two, understands what the tasks and the job is so you can find somebody for whom. Number three, that's their natural talent. Right. They're not inauthentically trying to stretch and be things they're not. And for those that are familiar with disc, imagine hiring a low C and saying hey, you're my accountant now they can do it but it's going to take three times as long. Drain their batteries instead of charge them and probably be rife with, you know, all kinds of inaccuracies and 0.505, whatever, it doesn't matter, you know, and then once they get on board, continue to use that information. I love the way you described doing it on receipts. I had a client who, a manager who blew up like a two and a half foot poster of the communication dos and don'ts, laminated it, put it on his door like, beware all ye who enter here. My coaching to him was that was the only door that had that on it. I think it was all you conformed to me. There was no in the middle, but we had clients that had name badges and they put little, four little colored dots and they would sequence them as to which was the highest to the lowest. So it might have been a red dot in the beginning for a D, but it might have been a blue dot first. The moment you saw them in the hallway, you knew. So use, utilize it in the rest of the management and the interactions you have with those people. Don't just throw it away by saying, I used it to hire him and then I ignored it. Meet in the middle. Take advantage of that information. You'll get a lot better communication, a lot better collaboration. They'll be happier, which makes you happier, which makes the business grow. And it's kind of that simple. It's easy, it's harder to actually execute, but the understanding of it's pretty straightforward. Know what you're looking for, find it and continue to use that knowledge to. To lead it maximally. Awesome.

Awesome, awesome. Go to wiveshire.com and check out this will just shortcut the whole learning process around people and definitely recommend the tool. Jay, appreciate you as always, giving us time and your wisdom and your battle scars. It all comes from that, essentially. So much love, brother.

Appreciate you Wisdom with a Z. Thank you, sir. I really appreciate you having me on. Always good talking.

All right, we'll talk soon.