Creator Interviews: Bruno De Figueredo; AI will be everywhere in the future

Hello, you're listening to the Level Up Creators Podcast. Amanda Northcutt here, founder and CEO. We help creators and digital thought leaders like you turn your knowledge and expertise into rock-solid recurring revenue. And we're so glad you're here. Welcome. Today, my special guest is Level Up Creators' own head of technology, Bruno de Figueiredo. Bruno is a master of the technology and tools required to run a creator's digital business, and we're going to unpack the ins and outs of one of the most daunting yet important parts of your business, your tech stack. Bruno is one of the foremost experts in the world in ActiveCampaign, has a deep background in marketing and marketing operations, and his skills combine into a force to be reckoned with, both with his work in our consulting firm and the extraordinary tech help and guidance he provides to our members inside of Level Up Creator School. And he's joining me today from lovely Northern Italy. Bruno, welcome to the show.

Yeah, thank you. I'm happy to be here.

I'm pumped to have this conversation. I mean, you and I both know that both in the consultancy and Creator School, questions about tech and tools and what's the best thing to do and how to connect one tool to the other and what are the implications of that and the price and how much should I be spending? I mean, all of these questions are always swimming around in creators' heads, especially, you know, in kind of early to mid-stage businesses. And so I'm excited to demystify and hopefully provide some clarification for people today. But before we get into all the tech stuff, Could you share just a little bit more about your professional background?

Yeah, sure. I mean, I actually, I always loved like advertising in general and graphic design. So I started as actually a graphic designer and then moving, you know, during the years. And then I became like more a copywriter and then account management. And then I discovered like websites and I started my let's say my tech evolution. So I started with some websites on WordPress and then I discovered all the digital part of the marketing. So I started to love that part of the marketing more than the design and the copywriting. Then those years were like the beginning of social media platforms and digital campaigns like Facebook advertising and Google advertising. So I found those very interesting. And then I, you know, like shifted from the website creation to actually digital marketing stuff. And I became a digital marketing manager for a big company with like 500 restaurants in Europe. And there, you know, I explored a lot of different channels and strategies of digital marketing. And I discovered the marketing automation and then I found my thing. So I found really like marketing automation is super powerful and it was a few years ago and it was not so explored. I mean, still now it's not so used sometimes. And then I started working with marketing automation for a startup and then I just became a freelancer and Now I'm with Level Up Creators and super happy with this. And, you know, so I started like from like websites, simple websites, and then I discovered all the digital platforms in general and the automation, marketing automation. So, you know, I just became very interested in almost everything related to tech in general. So yeah, I mean, this is like in a couple of minutes what happened in the last like 15 years.

That's so interesting. And I didn't know, I just learned that you did copywriting. So Bruno speaks 5 languages, is that right?

No, it's 4. I mean, I studied Latin, but I cannot speak in Latin.

Okay, so in what language are you copywriting, writing copy for?

No, I mean, it was in Italian because I was born in Brazil, so I'm from Brazil, but I was living here in Italy, and so I worked for an agency in Italy. So yeah, it was in Italian.

Nice. Okay, cool. Well, that's more of a like linear progression almost, or path of your career than the people that are normally guests on this show who is like, I mean, especially entrepreneurs, I feel like, and creators who are thought leaders and starting businesses. It's a very meandering path. I mean, you took like a hard pivot after graphic design, it seems like, although, I mean, that is exceptionally helpful, um, to our organization, but just like to have that graphic design mindset in marketing and marketing operations, cuz you kind of have like a different lens through which to see the success or lack thereof of the campaigns and the work that you're doing. So, I mean, that's a pretty stellar, like, arsenal of skills that you've put together. Um, but then, yeah, we were introduced in 2023 actually by Natalie, our head of revenue here at Level Up, and the rest is history, so to speak. So, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you said it right. I mean, it's, uh, When we talk about marketing or marketing automation, we always think about, about like data and, you know, strategy and, you know, all that part. And that's completely fine. I mean, it's actually a really important part of all of your marketing activities. But, you know, having like some creativity and, you know, some ideas, even if you are not like that person that actually is making like graphics, etc., but, you know, like how to recognize or how to like give, you know, instructions to your graphic designer or, you know, people we are— you are working with. It's— I think it's super powerful because you, you know how to express what you need and you can like understand how things are working. So you have data, but you can also understand why it's working. And sometimes it's actually all about content. So can be copywriting, can be the design, can be, you know, So I think it's very important. So I like those soft skills that actually I think, I mean, for me at least, it helps me a lot. So yeah.

Oh, for sure. Yes. I mean, you communicate so incredibly well and that's part of the magic that makes you so helpful to our clients in the consulting firm and again in Level Up Creator School because you are such a linear progression thinker and can communicate On so many different levels. But anyway, okay, you're qualified for the conversation is basically what I'm trying to say here.

Thank you. I hope so.

I'm sure. No question there. All right, well, let's get into it. So what are the overarching most important things to consider when a creator is selecting the tech and tools they're going to use to run their business? How should they be thinking about tech?

Okay, I think we, I mean, not just for a creator, but in, I mean, every business in general, when we are talking about like a tech stack, so we are talking about more platforms, I think you should consider 3 main aspects. So the first one is the customer journey of your users and customers. So, I mean, you need to understand clearly, you know, from the beginning at the end, all, you know, everything that can happen there. So, you know, all the actions, all the products you have, all the sources you have, and all the— yeah, I would say like the products you are selling, etc., because you need to have like a very good overview of this map. I like to call it a map, actually. So you have like all your activities and you should like have it like on a Miro file or whatever you can use, even on your home, like on a piece of paper.

Anyway, whiteboard. Yeah.

Yeah, you just need to have it like clearly, because you need that to understand what platforms you need actually to use and how you can connect all the platforms. So this is the first point. The second is about scalability. So when I talk about the customer journey and this map, you should think about this not like as it is right now, but also how it's evolving or What is your goal? So let's say if you are a creator and you are just selling your courses right now, but you are sure you want to launch a community maybe next year or next 2 years, maybe you should consider that. So you cannot like select your tech stack right now and then say, okay, I will see that like next year. I mean, you can do that, but it's like thinking about, I know this is my decision for now, but I know maybe I will need to change. So this is very important. And so scalability is super important. You cannot think about your tech stack just for like a couple of months. I mean, a couple of months is just the time you spend to configure everything. So you need to think about like years, at least, at least one year, I would say. And the third aspect is about simplicity. So keep it simple because sometimes I see like creators and business in general, they start to use different platforms and they are connected somehow, but they are like used in different ways and they're not, not so organized. And, you know, it can become very, become very complex to manage all this, this platform. So keep it simple. So try to understand really the platforms you need and the features you need, because sometimes you have like a lot of features or you choose maybe that platform because it seems like great because it can do almost everything. But maybe you just need 2 of those 10 features. So, you know, try to understand actually what you need. And sometimes you can use like maybe smaller platforms than like huge big platforms that do almost everything, but you are using just a couple of features. So keep it simple. So I mean, you should have your map of— sorry, your map of your customer journey, your— so an idea of all the customer journey and think of about these not only for today, but for like a year, and then try to understand really the features you need and the platforms you need, like keeping it really, really simple.

Yes, I love that. And that is such an important way to look at technology. It's not like you pick your technology or such and such or so-and-so said, oh, you should definitely use Kajabi and ConvertKit or whatever the case may be. There's a plethora of options out there and you're, and you're like, okay, I'm starting my business. My friend said I should get these. They're running a similar business. Like that's what I'm going to do. That is not the right way to think of this. The first thing is to think about the customer, just like Bruno said, and we are designing a frictionless customer experience. I mean, really like an experience, like you have the opportunity to create something amazing for your customers. And so we want to think about what, how do they find you on the internet? How do you nurture that relationship over time? What's the first thing you want them to buy from you? And the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, and then I like to think, I mean, really in our consulting firm, we're thinking 36 months ahead in terms of like technology decisions. So, we're doing a lot of really, really in-depth planning. We're asking a lot of questions, challenging assumptions, and all those important things when you're doing long-term business planning. Because to Bruno's point, it takes, yeah, it takes a couple months to get everything connected and up and running and tested and working right. And so, and also migrations can be— Yeah. Extremely painful. So you can, you know, change like yeah email service providers from ConvertKit to ActiveCampaign or the other way around, and depending on how like built out your system is, how many automations you have running and things like that, that's painful. You can generally do it though without your email subscribers knowing what's going on behind the scenes. But if you sold a course that there's a login associated with it, and you've promised lifetime access to that course, and you just then that was on Kajabi because that's what you started your business with. But then you wanna do a community, do challenges, live events like Bruno's talking about, and you wanna move to Mighty Networks, all your customers have to move with you unless you wanna keep that like legacy now piece of technology on Kajabi and continue to pay the $250 a month or whatever it is to keep your course there. And then now you got customers on multiple platforms. I mean, it can just be a tremendous, tremendous headache. And then I won't even get into the implications of migrating a community because Those are far-reaching and can be so painful.

Yeah, I mean, 100% agree. If you want a happy life, you want to avoid a migration of your users. Really, it's like, you know, because also every platform like works in a different way. So sometimes really, I mean, the migration is not just like, you know, download your contacts and then upload there your contacts because platforms like work with tags and lists in different ways. So it's not only complicated, it's also risky. risky because, you know, you have your users, maybe they are like unsubscribed and then you upload the users to the new platform and you subscribe them again, but they was unsubscribed and, you know, it's bad. So it can be really, really painful. So yeah, I mean, that's why it's very important to have the right platforms from the beginning. So yeah.

Yes. Okay, so let's drill into this a little bit further. We're already covering some of the information on like common pitfalls. pitfalls that creators should attempt to avoid when choosing a tech stack. But let's kind of round out this list. So what else you got?

Yes, I mean, okay, you, you want to understand all the features you need. And, and, you know, sometimes you have like just platforms really not, I mean, not so easy to use, also because they have a lot of features. So sometimes it's super hard to understand, you know, where to begin. And you know, what is the most actually important feature I need. And so I should start with this or that. So sometimes it's not easy. I mean, today we all— almost all of the platforms are no-code platforms. So you can just, you know, log in and create your account. And they should be— I mean, they say they are super easy to use, but that's not true because you have different features, you have different things to understand from the beginning. So I mean, it's easy if you know how to use the platform, but if it's your first time, it's super can be painful. And I like this example, for example, of Notion and Slack. I think Notion and Slack are 2 platforms with a very different, let's say, onboarding for like the platform. So Notion, you can start using Notion and I mean, you'll take like weeks to understand how it works. I mean, even to create your first page, it's not easy to use. But when you understand how to use it, it's super powerful. I mean, we use Notion, we love Notion, and we know that. But I know that it's not so easy to understand how to use and to start using it like alone, you know, by yourself. At the other hand, you have like Slack. You just open, you open your account and just enter the chat and it's super easy to use. You know how, I mean, they have like very quick tips about how to use Slack. So it's super interesting. So, you know, those are like no-code platforms. And if you talk about also like ConvertKit, you have like all the steps you can follow to create your account, etc. But again, sometimes it's not so easy. So I think the most, you know, sometimes a real problem creators or, you know, in general when you have a new platform is actually to understand how it works and how you can actually use it properly. So the best way you can use that platform. And yeah, I think these are actually other pitfalls they can find.

Yeah. It is so worth taking the time. If you don't have someone like our team and Bruno, you know, at your beck and call, basically to help you with things like take the time to do tutorials and understand the tool. And even as you're selecting your tech stack, for sure, make sure that you are watching videos on how to use the tool and that that aligns with your sort of technical capabilities. And also don't ever discount your technical capabilities. We do run into that a lot with just like, it's a mindset hurdle. Like, oh, technology, like I'm throwing my hands up in the air and I just can't focus. I can't concentrate. Yes, you absolutely can. It takes time and intention and affirmations, honestly. Like, yes, I can do this. But I wouldn't go buying a tool actually without going and having a look on the backend of it just through a YouTube tutorial and be like, okay, this is actually what the user experience Is like. And I want to draw a quick parallel, Bruno, because I love what you said about Notion and Slack. The onboarding in Slack is so simple, it's intuitive, and they give you an instruction exactly when you need it. Like if you try and, if you highlight text to hyperlink text and you hit Command K instead of just Command V for paste, right then and there Slack says, hey, try using just Command V. You don't have to like do this step anymore. And that's really helpful. But with Notion, yeah, it's like this giant overwhelming blank canvas without the instructions. Although Marie, the Notion lady, I'm forgetting her last name right now, but there's like excellent Notion training out there. But it is, yeah, it can be so frustrating. I mean, we were using Notion very, very wrong until you came along, Bruno, and fixed everything. And now it's great. And we're big time like Notion fans. Notion you know, product evangelists. But think about these software as a service products next to whatever products and service you are building and selling, creators listening, and think about the onboarding experience from your customer's point of view. Is this more like Slack or, you know, Apple? I mean, Apple has the most amazing intuitive onboarding. Yeah. Their, their, everything that they have is so intuitive to use. Or is it more like Notion where people are gonna come into your course or, you know, your community even worse and throw their hands up and have no idea what they're supposed to do first or how to get the value that they promise, that you promise them in their marketing. So there's some kind of like interesting parallels here. But you should always be thinking about the customer experience, just like these software companies that you're paying monthly subscriptions to are by and large, and definitely should be thinking about your experience with them. So. Yes. Right-sizing your tech stack and reducing complexity wherever you can is huge. Okay. Creator, what does a creator tech stack actually look like? What kind of tools are actually needed in a typical stack?

Well, this is a very long list. I mean, it's, there is a lot because I mean, of course it depends on your business. So If you have like courses or newsletter or maybe you have a paid newsletter or you have a membership or not. So it depends on— but I mean, assuming like a creator with all of these possible products and mediums, etc., I would say you need for sure a newsletter platform or in general an email marketing platform. So it depends if you have like just a newsletter maybe you can use ConvertKit or something similar, Substack. But if you have maybe some products or a community, you need not only like a newsletter platform, but you need an email marketing automation platform. So in that case, you need to create like complex automations, maybe, I mean, or maybe not complex, but you know, different types of automation. So onboarding, upsell, abandoned cart, etc. And in that case, it's it's better to use something like ActiveCampaign. So you have like more possibilities to create those funnels and you can also create your landing page there. So it's just easier than if you have like courses or tripwire, maybe if you have like a guide you sell online, something like that. So you can do some of those things using ConvertKit if it's just like a free guide, like a PDF. Otherwise, if you have like courses, you should use a learning management system like Podia or Kajabi so you can actually host your course and you can sell your course with those platforms. And of course, in this case, things can become a little bit more complex. So we are talking about like an email marketing platform and then we have a course LMS platform for your courses. So we have like, let's say, Podia. And then you have also your email marketing automation. So you need to connect those maybe using Zapier or Make.com. Those are connectors you can use to connect via API. So main, more platforms so they can talk to each other and you can sync your users. And so, I mean, it can become really complex. So when I said, I said like, keep it simple, it means like try to understand if you really need all those platforms. Because, for example, if you have an email marketing automation and your newsletter from ConvertKit, maybe you can use only ActiveCampaign for both of them. And if you're using maybe Squarespace for landing page and you are using ActiveCampaign or Kajabi or other platforms, you can build your landing page there. So maybe you can, you know, stop using Squarespace in that case or WordPress or whatever. And you can build your landing page on a different platform. So if you try to keep it simple, it's just better to, you know, mix and sync all your information and data. Then another important aspect, of course, is the membership. So if you have a membership, of course you have another product. And in this case, you need to use another platform. If we think about Mighty Networks, You can use Mite Networks for your community, but at this point you can use also Mite Networks to sell your courses. So you don't need to use Podia or Kajabi. So, you know, it depends on the— actually, that's why I talk about like customer journey, because you need to understand, map your products, your services, and then you can, you know, try to understand the best platform So you can actually manage almost everything with like less platforms and not like with a single platform for every, for everything, for every single product. And then, I mean, this is like the main. So you have like courses, newsletter, and maybe a community, and those are like your products and services. But then you maybe can use an affiliate program to boost your course sales and, and your membership, or you can use checkout optimization platforms to optimize your checkout pages and you can use SumoCart or ThriveCart for that. So you can use like more and more platforms, but they are, I'd say, not nice to have, but not at the beginning at least. So you can start from those and then you can add more and more platforms. And if we talk about payments, you probably need to use Stripe. So that's another platform and you need to use Stripe. You don't, I mean, you cannot like accept payments without them and, or PayPal or other platforms like that. And then if you need some analytics, you probably will be using Google Analytics 4 that you can integrate easily with all of these platforms. So ActiveCampaign, Squarespace or Podia or whatever, so you can integrate easily Google Analytics. So I mean, there are a lot of platforms, so it depends on the creator business actually. I mean, how many actually you need from those. But these, I think, are like the most common cases of like product services and platforms you need.

Yeah. And that's Let's see. I mean, covered email marketing, product hosting, actually selling the product, how the money gets to your bank account. You know, you also need like an online bank account, credit card. Um, we use Mercury for our online checking account and we use Chase credit cards. Uh, but then also thinking about just all the miscellaneous things that we pay for on a monthly basis. We're recording this podcast right now on riverside.fm, right?

Yeah.

And we are going to Um, distribute, strip the audio out of this video file and distribute it on all major podcast platforms using transistor.fm, another tool. We use canva.com and there's a paid version and a free version for, you know, a lot of our design stuff for social media. Uh, you mentioned Stripe and creators, y'all have got to be doing your monthly books. You have got to put together like a profit and loss statement and something beyond Just you know a basic budget, and so we recommend QuickBooks Online or zero xero dot com for bookkeeping. Another common thing I want to address really quickly because I know you're you agree with me on this one, Bruno, but is password management. I mean, if you've got like 500,000 followers on Instagram, 125,000 on LinkedIn, and your password is your dog's name one two three exclamation point, like you're asking for. Trouble. So you need an alphanumeric, auto-generated alphanumeric code that's like 26 characters, including special characters and 2-factor authentication for all your stuff online at this point. I mean, I feel like that's not quite table stakes, but like it should be. So the password manager that we recommend, there's a number of them, Keeper, LastPass, we use 1Password. It's the number 1 and the word password.com. And that's really great for uh, temporarily and safely sharing passwords with clients inside the consulting firm. And it's just like a really, really, really great tool. It's very inexpensive. So I think that's another one. Um, and one quick way to just level up your branding is to have a branded email address, right? So our email addresses are firstname@welevelupcreators.com, not, you know, amandanorthcutt@gmail.com or whatever the case may be. Yeah. And so it's just a lot more professional. So then you can pay a Google Workspace subscription. To get like those branded email addresses, we also pay for Zoom. That's super important for delivering anything you're delivering live, right? Domain management. We use Loom, Slack, and Notion are our primary tools to communicate as like a global remote team. Calendly. We have a ChatGPT subscription. Talked about Slack. So yeah, I mean there's the stuff to that you've got to have to deliver your products and services, and then there's kind of just like this operations tech stack as well. But don't be surprised. When your tech stack bills are $400, $500, $600, $700, $800, $900 a month. And then some of those fees scale, which I think we're gonna talk about in a minute. But yeah, it's, it's important that you understand the expectation that automating with technology is very, very cost effective when you talk about what the technology can do versus hiring a human to do it. And that's also just part of the cost of doing business at this point. If you wanna have an online business, you have to have a tech stack too. run the business. Okay.

Yeah,

we cannot have this conversation without talking about AI. So what role do you see AI playing in a creator's tech stack over the next few years?

Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a big topic. So I mean, it seems obvious. I mean, all of people are talking about this and, you know, everyone are saying actually that actually AI will not replace people. At working or let's say like copywriting and design, etc. I mean, it's more about people that can use AI that actually will replace, replace people that cannot use AI. So this is very important because, you know, there is this very, you know, this fear about AI, like, you know, now it can create like almost everything. You can do everything with AI, etc. But that's not true actually. You can do a lot of things with AI and but it's, it's not easy. I mean, it's super difficult to create something really, really well done with AI. So actually it's how you, you use it. So how good you, you actually you can use it. So this is important and it's kind of related with another topic. It's about all the higher expectations people have about AI. It's— I mean, you can, as I said before, you can do a lot with AI. So it's changing everything, almost everything. But you need to know how to use it properly. So really it's not like just I just need to ask this and I have like, you know, all my things done. So like my copywriting done or my like strategy. So just create a strategy for this product. It's not like that. It's more like I can ask for some ideas, I can brainstorm with ChatGPT or whatever, and I can have some ideas and some inputs. And with my knowledge, I can create something really, really good. So it's, it's a little bit different. And so I think it's— this is how we are right now. And for the future, I think we will be using AI even without knowing it because AI will be just almost everywhere. So, you know, like Apple is working on this, on Google, etc. So you have like your mobile phone and we'll have probably Siri finally that can understand you. And so you can talk with Siri like normally and not like today or Alexa. And so I think it's more about that. So we will be using AI a lot. But actually not like just ChatGPT or Claude, etc., but it's more like on all of the platforms we are talking about. So ActiveCampaign have a lot of different features with AI. ConvertKit has a lot of features. If we talk about like Clarity, you can use for a heatmap analysis of your website. You can ask AI directly on Clarity for some analysis of your website. So the AI can like read your heatmap and give you some instructions and some ideas. So, you know, and we are just at the beginning. So the idea about the future of AI for me, it's more about like how we will be using AI with all those platforms, like, you know, incorporated on the platform, not really just like using AI as we think about it, like ChatGPT, just, you know, asking for an image or an analysis or a copy for my email. And so I think this is more like what's going to happen probably. I mean, it's happening actually. So the example of Clarity is just a really nice example actually.

Yeah, that is really cool, especially since we're talking about landing page updates right now and we use Microsoft Clarity, like Bruno said, for our heat mapping software. And that's where you can see The heat mapping tool basically anonymously logs behavior on your landing page that like prospective customers are come on, coming on. This is the section they're focusing on. These are the buttons that are clicked most often. And so it really helps you understand the most important information on your website, on any landing page. So that's a very, very cool tool. And yeah, I think you're right. AI will just be part of all the software that we're using and it will, it will enhance, it should enhance everything. But I love your point. A few minutes ago about it's your ability to leverage AI to be able to use the tool that's really gonna be, I mean, a major, major difference maker in more of the like macroeconomic climate and the job market in particular. So that's gonna be super interesting. And shameless plug for Creator School, Bruno and Natalie just dropped an incredible AI course in Creator School. So it will help you no matter kind of like what your familiarity level is with using tools like ChatGPT and Gemini, but the course is phenomenal. We've gotten great feedback on it so far and all to the end of helping you, you know, further find efficiencies and time-saving things that you can, yeah, just finding efficiencies in your business and how AI can be used right now in order to do, to do that well. So everybody should jump in Creator School and take that course and everything else that's there. That's incredible. But that is the newest addition. So well done, sir. All right, let's talk about money or come back to money rather. So yeah, how much does all this cost? I put kind of like a floor at, you know, $300 to kind of like get started. But let's talk about helping creators have correct expectations with regard to how their fees are going to scale as their business grows. How does that work?

Yes, I mean, this is very important and I have an exact example for that. And when we talk about like the customer journey and, and that you need to pick your platforms based on your actual but also your future customer journey. So your future products, etc. So we talk about like community. If you are thinking about like launching a community next year, you should consider that in your tech stack. I'm not saying you should buy like a community platform right now, but you just should like, you know, know that it will be like a new piece there. I mean, somewhere like next year maybe. So, and this is important because almost all the platforms actually have different prices based on features you are using sometimes, but also on how, I mean, how many users, how many triggers, how many events you are using. So if we talk about like ActiveCampaign or ConvertKit, The price can, I mean, depends on the number of users you have and the features you want to use. So of course, if you just have like 100 email subscribers today, I mean, you should like, you know, see how much it will increase that price with maybe 1,000 or maybe 10,000 because sometimes it can be like a lot and sometimes you have like similar platforms. I mean, the same platform, I mean, different platforms for the same purpose, but with very different price strategy, let's say. So Zapier and Make.com is a good example of that. So with Zapier, for example, you can start your free account and you have a lot of zaps. So a lot of events you can use and you can create, I think, 3 like scenarios. Scenarios or something like that. So anyway, it's like super, it's perfect for like for the beginning. You just need a couple of zaps maybe. So it's like perfect. But then when you start to pay like for the first tier and the second and third, it became like really expensive, but like really. On the other hand, make.com, for example, have like a very, I mean, a not so popular, not so interesting free trial. So it's not so great. But on the other hand, for like more and more events and users, it's like a really, really better pricing than Zapier. So the problem is that, you know, maybe you start using Zapier because it's free and you have, you know, almost everything you need. And maybe with Make you need to pay like since the beginning, but it's just like $9 per month maybe. And Zapier, it's free. But you know, when you have like 105 users and you need more from Zapier, you need to pay like, I don't know, $49 per month. And we like could have the same for maybe 15 from Make. So it's just to say, to say every time. So try to understand not the price for today, but also how price increase. And basically it's based on number of users and/or events, depending on the platform and the features you use. So also the features, sometimes you think about some features you are not interested in right now, but maybe can be useful tomorrow. So try to understand. I suggest, yeah, to understand, you know, also the future, not only what you need today. So yeah, but I mean, the price can depend like on It's, it's, it's very difficult to understand. I mean, to like, you know, give a price like for all the tech stack. So really it depends a lot on this.

Yeah. I remember before we switched to make.com from Zapier, I think we're gonna have to go back to Zapier because of like Make doesn't have the number of integrations. But anyway, I mean, we got up to where we were spending $300 or $400 a month on Zapier and that was a little bit crazy in terms of like, The value equation for me did not really work. So that was very frustrating. But your email service provider, certainly the cost is going to increase as you add more users. The only exception to that I can think of right now is Substack. If you are only running a free newsletter, it's free forever, no matter how many people are on your email list. But then they get you when you start your paid newsletter and then they take 10% of your revenue. Which is pretty extraordinary if you ask me. And then Substack has extremely limited capabilities and features in terms of marketing automation and things like that. So like we're saying, there's pros and cons to everything, but if you're thinking, you know, even 12, 24, 36 months ahead and you're planning out that customer journey a little bit further, like stretch yourself to think further. Well, not like locking yourself in, you still want to build a tech stack and a business that helps you do what's called retain optionality. That's really, really important. is to not pigeonhole yourself. And certainly don't pick a tool, like I said at the very beginning, and then build your business based on what the tool will allow you to do. 'Cause that's inherently self-limiting completely unnecessarily. But remember, your tech and tool stack is very, very important. It's gonna save you a lot of time. It's worth the time to learn how to use each tool and even give it a little trial run in some form or fashion before you commit. Um, and then as with tools, like if you have cash in the bank, that's great. You can typically save quite a lot if you pay on an annual basis rather than a monthly basis. So that's kind of one saver, but yeah, it, it costs money. It still takes money to make money, um, in the world today in 2024. So, uh, yeah, pay your bills, you know, take your medicine. That's just part of it, right?

All right. Yeah. I, I, I suggest in this case, always to start with a monthly plan maybe. And, you know, just to be sure it's actually the right platform. And then maybe after a couple of months you are using and you say, okay, that's great. So you can upgrade to an annual plan so you can save something. And but yeah, from the beginning I suggest like the monthly plan so you can be like sure it's actually the right platform. Of course, if it's a platform without like a trial period, of course.

Yeah, that's, that's great. And that's, yeah, I really am a big fan of working in iterations. And so is there a low-risk test that I can run before I commit to something bigger? So yeah, that's a really great point. Okay. So I mean, you and I both know that the technology can just be such an overwhelming hurdle that sometimes people will get paralyzed, frozen, um, and won't start their business because of the technological hurdles. So for anyone that finds themselves in that position who is listening to this episode, how can we help them move forward? What are some specific steps that they can take to get going?

Yeah, I mean, okay, I'd say the same steps I said before. So, you know, your customer journey and, you know, try to understand all the features you need. But basically in this case, I mean, if you really like don't know, you know, what platforms you need, etc. And I usually don't suggest this, but in this case could be the best option to find like in those platforms that can do almost everything. Usually those type of platforms are not so great on everything, so you probably will need to upgrade after maybe a year or something like that. So, but so that's why I usually don't suggest those type of platforms, but at And on the other hand, if you just don't know how to begin and I mean, you need to start and you are not sure about like the features and maybe you just need a newsletter and you need to sell a course and maybe like a guide. So product, something like that. But you need also some marketing automation. So, you know, you can need like those first features. I suggest a platform that can do almost everything there. So in this case, Kajabi is an example. So with Kajabi, you can like send your newsletters, create some email automation, you can create your course, your guide or whatever. So you can do a lot of things. You can manage your community. So you can do really a lot of things there. And so in this case, I would suggest like to use some of those platforms so you can test them and you can understand. But just, you know, just know you need to migrate. Something. I mean, maybe after a year, maybe after 3 years. I don't know. It depends. It depends how your business grows. So yeah. So in this case, I just suggest try to pick those platforms like, you know, most famous and known like for, you know, for creators maybe that cover almost everything. So in this case, they probably don't cover everything like greatly, but they do their job. So That's probably the best solution instead of like, you know, this for newsletter and another platform for this and another for that. So I need to connect them with Zapier. So, you know, just pick one platform for everything and then we'll see maybe a year later or something like that. So.

Yes. Just get started. That's the goal.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

All right. Let's wrap this up. If our listeners only remember one thing from this episode, what should it be?

Okay, I would say keep it simple. So again, you know, try to understand really the only features you need, the only platforms you need, etc. But I'd like also to add a bonus because we talked about how you can select your tech stack. But we, we didn't talk about like how you, you should use your tech stack, because it's another very, very important aspect because you can have like the, you know, the best platforms for your business and they are like connected and they are working and it's perfect. But you are like using different tags with different names and you have like your fields on ActiveCampaign that are like different from, I don't know, Podia or whatever. So I mean, try to like really use those platforms like in a simple way. So again, keep it simple. So try to understand how you want to create your tags. So with this specific like sequence, so every time let's say you have like lead magnets and you are using tags to tag those people, those people, so try to create something like, I don't know, LM and then the name of the lead magnet and use that for every lead magnet and don't do something like, you know, LM and sometimes lead magnet 3 or another name.

Yeah.

You know, otherwise, I mean, at the beginning is not a problem. You just have maybe one lead magnet and one product. So, you know, your products. But if you start having like, like us, if you have like different lead magnets, different products, different courses, it can become like really, really complex to manage and to understand. And, and if you have someone new on your team also to explain how your systems are working. So use the name of like your automations, your products, etc. Make them like, you know, easy to understand and organized. So I think this is like, you know, how you can actually make the best with your, your tools and your platform. So yeah.

Yeah. Naming conventions and organization is really, really important. We didn't even hit on documentation and how your tech stack is used and how you can begin to delegate. I mean, this is an entire side of your business, right? And so there's multiple layers of complexity and depth to this process. And that is the stuff of Creator School. And so we have an extremely comprehensive tech and tools guide inside of Creator School. You can also come and get one-on-one help in a small group setting with exactly what you need. We can gather the right information from you and tell you exactly the tech stack that will work for you for, you know, the coming next couple of years. Uh, and we'll help you go from wherever you are to wherever you want to go in your creator business. Uh, we work primarily with Thought leaders. So I think that's really, really important to remember is we're helping people create you know a very a value laden customer journey where they've married their area of passion and expertise, and they're selling a very again thoughtful value suite or product ladder of products and services. So we did not mention things like Shopify, Shop Pay, and Klaviyo today because you know this is not a specifically like e-commerce podcast. We're talking about digital products and services, and so that is all. Under the guise of that lens. So, okay, Bruno, thank you. That was amazing. I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom and knowledge. And obviously it takes a lot to stay on top of the latest and greatest offerings and upgrades and everything like that. So we, we appreciate you and thank you for coming on the podcast today. Do you have a quick parting shot and where can listeners find you online?

Oh, that's Okay, I will just keep it to maintain the same topic. So again, keep it simple. I love that. I mean, it's just because every time we talk about like tech and automation and AI also, you know, it seems like very complicated every time. And it is actually most of the times. And but again, the only way you can actually, you know, have the best platforms for your tech stack, etc. It's just trying to keep it simple. So you're from your customer journey, from your to your platforms and the features that you are using. And yeah, so I just say keep it simple. Yeah.

Love it.

And of course, you can find me on LinkedIn or on Level Up Creator School.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you again. And thank you, listeners. We know that time is precious. Thank you for sharing yours with us. We help creators like you at levelupcreatorschool.com. Where our team becomes your full-stack team of advisors, and also includes no-fluff creator courses, a vibrant creator community, and that one-on-one guidance in a small group setting, all on a subscription basis. See the show notes for more information and a suite of high-value free resources. We'll see you next time on the Level Up Creators Podcast.