Creators Interview Tim Grahl; The level of resistance is to the level of how important it is

Hey, hey, you're listening to the Level Up Creators Podcast. Amanda Northcutt here, founder and CEO. We help digital creators and thought leaders like you turn your knowledge and experience into rock solid recurring revenue. And we are so glad you're here. Welcome. Today, my special guest is creator, author, and CEO Tim Grahl, who has built his company from the ground up to 7 figures and beyond. We're going to unveil his secrets to success and show you how to apply those strategies and tactics in your own creator business. But first, a little bit more about Tim. Tim is the CEO of StoryGrid, a university and publishing house dedicated to teaching and publishing complex stories. He is the author of the bestselling book, Your First 1,000 Copies and The Book Launch Blueprint. His memoir, Running Down a Dream: A Warts-and-All Confession of the Trials and Tribulations of a Contemporary Small Business Owner, drew accolades from Ryan Holiday, Daniel H. Pink, Derek Sivers, and Steven Pressfield, who described it as indispensable. The writing, writing of his first novel, a young adult science science fiction coming-of-age story, The Threshing, was the subject of the first 3 years of the StoryGrid Podcast, a perennial chart-topper on multiple podcast bestseller lists. His new novel that came out this week as we're recording, The Shedhead, tells the story of a man struggling to find meaning in a meaningless world. Wow. And Tim is joining us today from beautiful Nashville, Tennessee. Welcome, Tim.

Thanks, Amanda. Thanks for having me.

I'm pumped to have this conversation. You've literally written the book on a lot of what we're going to talk about today in terms of the, uh, potential perils of being a small business owner. Uh, StoryGrid is almost 9 years old. Very, very few businesses make it that past the 8-year mark. Actually, that's a really big sort of, um, marker of success. And statistically speaking, something like 95% of businesses fail before the 8-year mark. Is that right?

Yeah. Well, we almost went out of business last year, so that makes sense.

It's like the 7-year itch in your marriage, except it's the 8-year issue in your business. Yeah. Well, take us back. Tell us the origin story of StoryGrid. We'd love for you to hit the highlights on, you know, kind of how you've gotten to where you are today, and then we'll unpack from there.

So the real brains behind StoryGrid, as far as the methodology and how we actually help writers and help books come to be, is from my partner, Shawn Coyne. And he started in publishing in 1999. 91, he became an editorial assistant, and he kind of assumed when he got the job they would teach him how to be a great editor. And turns out there is no way that they teach anything. They just all kind of assume it's all intuition and magic, which is why 65% of books published by traditional publishing lose money. But this wasn't good enough for Sean, so he started reading a ton, researching a ton, researching everything from Aristotle and Plato to modern philosophers, information science, information theory from the 1950s, Claude Shannon, and everything in between to really develop a full narrative theory. And as he was doing this, he started applying it to the books that he was working on through the '90s and the early 2000s. And what he started seeing is more and more success because of this, because there is an actual science of story. There is objectively Right and wrong ways to create stories. And so through all of this, he started putting together these ideas, and then he wrote a book called The Story Grid and released it in 2015. And so I was aware of Shawn. I was following him, and so I knew who he was. And what was funny is he actually bought my online course about how to market books and started doing what I said. And then I was following him, so I bought the book when it came out, but it's this like 8.5 by 11 textbook looking thing that's super intimidating. You open it, there's like charts and graphs and shit. And so like, I immediately put it on the shelf and just was like, I can't read that. But I've always wanted to write fiction. I'd been trying to do it off and on my whole life.

Hmm.

And so then, uh, we ended up that year moving. I sold my consultancy, um, moved all into online courses and Right about that time, we moved to Nashville. So I had all these big changes in my life. And then finally, I was like, all right, I'm going to take this fiction thing seriously. So I pulled his book off the shelf and I started reading it and I was just blown away. It was like, I've read all the craft books out there and this was the one that I felt like the guy actually understood what he was talking about. And so I emailed him just to see if we could do a quick phone call and On that phone call, we were just talking through a bunch of stuff. And towards the end of the call, I was like, hey, you know, what are you doing with like your website to promote this book and stuff? Because I've been a book marketing consultant at that point for a long time. And he's like, well, you know, I've been blogging, but I'm not really sure what to do next. I was like, well, why don't we start a podcast and I'll just ask you all my idiot beginner writer questions and you just answer them. I'll do everything. You just have to show up on Skype once a week. He's like, fine, let's do it. So I didn't think it would turn into anything. I didn't care. I just wanted the free writing advice. And, uh, but lo and behold, a year later I was like looking at the stats and I was like, you know, Sean, people are listening to this thing. You want to do something? And he's like, yeah, let's partner. And so we partnered up and we just started doing all kinds of different things, uh, trying to figure out the right way to start putting this stuff out into the world. All the while he's teaching me how to write on the podcast. And so the podcast was I mean, we had a rule for many, many years where we were not allowed to talk about my writing unless we were recording the podcast, because I wanted to make it as real as I could possibly make it. I feel like so many writers lie about the process, and I know they lie because I've worked for many of them, and they always like talk about it like, you know, the gods come down and hand them the words to say, and that's just complete bullshit. And so So I, I, every, if you listen to the first, I forgot how many years of the podcast, 7 or 8. Literally, if we, we almost never talked about my writing, if we weren't recording the podcast, it was like a hard and fast rule. And so, and so then, you know, the company continued to grow, but we really hit a hard spot towards the end of 2022 of just realizing the model we were running Couldn't scale, couldn't grow the way we needed it to do. And so all of 2023 was just like this shit show of me trying to figure out what to do with the business. And, you know, I ended up talking to— over the course of 18 months, I talked to over 550 different people one-on-one, just customers, potential customers, people that have been following us, people that never heard of us, anybody that would get on the phone with me. And then we finally figured out the business model. And, and again, all through this, I'm still trying to become a writer. I'm still trying to learn how to write. And, and so this year has been a big swing of like, now we're growing, now we're starting to scale. And I finally like am coming out with a book that I'm really proud of fiction-wise. And it just came out, you know, in the past week. And that brings us to today. So right now we're like 30-something percent up over year on year after 3 years of being completely Completely flat, a little down last year. And, um, you know, I'm starting to wrap my head around how this whole thing's supposed to go. So there's a relatively quick intro.

Okay. Well, that was a lot about Sean, but it sounds like you were, you have a deep background in book marketing. So I can see how this is a very logical business marriage, right? You guys are, you know, kind of right place, right time, right methodology, and then I love kind of like whether you realize it or not, working in iterations with regard to the podcast, you achieved proof of concept and some of the kind of the beginnings of the product market fit you were looking for. So that's very interesting that that's kind of how your relationship began and then it not organically, but naturally I think led to a business partnership.

Yeah. So I've always done the op— I'm the operations and marketing side and he's the, you know, curriculum and figuring out what we're teaching. He's the brains of the operation on that side. And so it's a really good marriage. We've had exactly one argument in nine years of working together, and it like was resolved almost immediately. And so we get along really well, just naturally know kind of what each other's strengths are and support each other really well. And and really, like my whole career before him was like working for people, like working for authors and other people that were thought leaders. And there's a really good. There's a good story you could tell about my whole career. I was just trying to find the person that I wanted to really throw in with, you know? And so I love StoryGrid. I think it's life-changing for really anybody, but definitely writers. And so, you know, I plan on dying at my desk working on StoryGrid. So not anytime soon, but— Right.

You're all in. Yeah. So signals that you knew that the, the revenue that you, that the revenue model that you had from years, you know, 0 to 6 or so.

Yeah, 2022. So that would be, yeah, something like that. Yeah. Okay.

So you knew something was wrong because your revenue was flat and then declined. And so your, what was the impetus for, I need to talk to as many people as possible? And then you end up talking to 550 of them. How did you know that was the next

Yeah. So what happened was, uh, we were kind of a typical like course and, um, we had a small membership, but it was mostly course mod— uh, model. And what happened was we, we did this big promotion and we had this really new thing that we were offering. And I thought it was gonna be like our biggest promotion ever. And it was just flat.

Hmm.

And it was just that moment where like, I was just like in my gut, I just felt like, Uh-oh, something's wrong. Like, this is not growing the way it needs to grow. And so I hired a consultant. You know, what do you do when you don't know what to do? You hire a consultant. And so, and she was just like, she started asking me questions about my audience. You know, basic stuff, demographics, what are they into? Why do they buy your stuff? Why are they not? And I couldn't answer most of the questions. And she's like, Tim, you need to just start talking to people. And One of my strengths that can be a weakness, but one of my strengths is I'm like a train. So like if you put me on the tracks and tell me to go, I will just go until somebody tells me to stop. And so she's like, you need to start talking to people. So I just started talking to people. And so basically every day, Monday through Friday, I would try to fill up at least from 1 to 4 or 4:30 with half-hour phone calls. And it started by just like emailing my list. I would email the list. Um, asked them to fill out a survey. If they, once they filled out the survey, they would automatically get an invite to my, uh, to my calendar. It was just Calendly. I just had it open. They could pick a time and I just tried to fill it up. And then as I start, that's, so the first thing I did was 50 interviews asking everybody the same exact questions. And then what I did is I went back through that and started looking for Similarities between all of it. And I started seeing things like I talked to exactly one person that was under 40 years old. So I'm like, oh shit, my demographic is like, really, it's like 45 to 65, maybe 70 years old. Oh, that's really interesting. Oh, not a single person talked about selling a bunch of copies or becoming a bestseller or anything like that. They don't care about that. All they care about is finally doing the thing they've wanted to do since they were a child. and leaving a legacy. Those are the 2 things. So I got rid of everything on our website that talked about selling a bunch of books or becoming a bestseller.

Mm-hmm.

So stuff like that. And then we started experimenting with different product offerings. And so I just started selling all of that on the phone so that way I could find out like, what were their, why wouldn't they buy, you know, what questions did they ask? How could I be helpful? And, um, and then that just continued. I just kept going. I just kept going. And so, um, Yeah. So I just, uh, it was, it started with, I didn't know my audience and then it became like, uh, I, I have a, my friend Josh Kaufman wrote the book, The Personal MBA, which has now sold like, I don't know, like over 1.5 million copies. It's, it's an amazing book. I think every entrepreneur should just read it.

Yes.

It like solves all the unknown unknowns. Like you now know everything you need to know in business just by reading that book. You don't know all the things, but you know what you need to know. Anyway, one of the things in there is Gauss's Law. And Gauss's Law says you can't build a complex system. You have to start with a simple system and complexify it over time. And so I decided instead of, you know, I'm a tech guy, I have a computer science degree, I can build super complicated tech systems and, uh, and I can spend all of my time doing it, you know? And so I was like, all right, I'm going all the way back to the '80s with the infomercial. So I'm like, I'm gonna put YouTube videos on and I'm just gonna try to get them to call me. And, uh, and I was like, that's a simple system. And so I just did that over and over and over and over. And now I'm starting to complexify the system a little bit. Um, so I don't have to do as many phone calls, although I, I accidentally did like 40-something phone calls like 3 weeks ago or something. But, uh, I, I opened up my calendar too wide and I thought what I was doing wouldn't work. And then it worked. And then literally every spot on my Before I could stop it, all the spots filled up. So, um, yeah, so it's like, that's, I, that's what I knew what was wrong. I needed to start talking to people and I've really come to believe this, that like most people don't talk to their customers enough. And so, um, I've now, this has become just, I don't think you have to talk to 600 people, but like at least talk to 50 and ask them the same questions and just find out like what's going on. Mm-hmm. And it really takes away any fear of like selling, telling people about your product, talking to people. Like all of that fear just kind of goes out the door once you've done it so many times. So, uh, it helps with that too.

That's a great point. And I love what you're saying about starting with Gall's Law, you said, and starting with a simple system. So what I'm hearing here is you're looking at your numbers going, oh shit. This isn't working. You brought someone in outside, you know, eyes are always super, super helpful if they're intelligent, worth their salt, all those things. Um, and they told you, go talk to your customers. So, you started doing that and you did it at a level that I don't know if I know anyone else who's like done it at that level. Um, but you kind of put your nose to the grindstone and you just got on the train and you stayed on it to, to borrow your analogy. Yeah. And you worked in iterations, right? Changing the landing page language over, talking, changing about kind of the desired value outcomes and transformation that the people you actually, that were coming to you actually wanted. Had nothing to do with bestseller, you know, and every, all of your marketing now is centered around leaving your legacy and creating something that people are really, really incredibly proud of. And you and I have had lots of conversations At this point about kind of your ICP, your customer profile, and I think the program that you all have at Storygrid at this point is phenomenal. Phenomenal. I don't know if you guys could have any more social proof if you tried. If y'all go to storygrid.com and just scroll down, like you would not believe. If you're trying to write a fiction book, you need to go do their their program. But I love the thoughtfulness and level of intention that you've taken in designing the customer journey, starting with something simple, not automating it. Until you got it figured out. And now you're layering on kind of level after level of automation using the right tools, but you're working in iterations still. It's not like, oh, now we've got this massive complex gear train of a backend customer journey system, but it's still simple, but it's lightening the load that you have been shouldering for quite some time.

Yeah, I think, I think a couple of things here. So one is it's easier to play around in Zapier and ConvertKit and all of these things than to just talk to customers. So I think, and I, I'm saying this from experience, right? So I'm 43. I've been working for myself since I was 24. And so like, I've made every mistake there is to make. There's a reason I'm just learning how to scale a business when I'm in my 40s and I started when I was in my 20s. So I've made every mistake you can make. And one of the mistakes I made for the longest time Was like, um, pretending, doing things. So I felt like I was working, but it wasn't actually making any progress.

Mm-hmm.

And like, you're, you're trying to build a complex system when you don't even know if it works or if the people even want what you're selling yet. And so it's like, I remember I heard Tim Ferriss talk about this one time of like, um, Like something like, uh, if you're talking to somebody and they want it, then just say, I have one in my trunk. Can I sell it to you now? Like, that's as simple as it gets, right? So it's just like, how do I talk to somebody? How do I offer them what I have? And if they say no, be like, cool, why not? You know, and just ask a bunch of questions. And it's like, okay, you know, I'm— oh, people, people will say stuff and you're like, wait, no, you don't understand. Oh man, I explained it wrong. Right? So it's like, oh, I gotta explain it again.

Mm-hmm.

And then it's like, next time I explain a little bit better. And a little bit better and a little bit better. And then when I go to do the sales page, I just like write out everything I've said to 100 people.

Yeah.

And so, um, it's like, um, so I think that, and then the other thing that, um, that has really shifted for me is I have now taken it as my responsibility for my students to get the end result. So I think too many people in the course creator world, they, their goal is to sell their course. And once that sale comes in, they're like, cool, I've hit my goal. I've sold my course. I've given them the thing. It's now up to them. And they might do some like follow-up, like live calls or whatever, but they're kind of like, well, it's on them. And so I started thinking like, how would I build my, my workshop or my program or whatever it is, if I'm only successful if my, my students are successful, if they get what I told them they would get when they sign up. Because like the, the finish rate for most online courses is like 15% or lower, right?

At best.

Yeah. And like right now we're running at like 95% of people finish our workshops. And so far, 100% of people had said they'd become a significantly and demonstrably better writer at the end of it. Wow. And so, and even that 95% bugs me a little bit. And so, um, you, it just changes everything if like, okay, I want every single student to get what I told them they would have by the end. One is it forces you to confront the promises you're making cuz you're like, well, I actually have to be able to deliver on it. Yeah. And then I restructure everything so that at the end of it, I've actually delivered on it. And so it just changes everything. And so again, that comes from, and some of that came from, I've now looked in people's eyes and told them they should sign up for the thing.

Mm-hmm.

And that, and so now I'm like, and people, I'm looking at these people and it's like, you know, I've wanted to be a writer since I was 9 years old and like I've accomplished what I've set out to do and it's like the most meaningful thing I've ever done. And now I'm looking in people's eyes that are like 52 years old and they're like, I, I have to do this now because I'm literally running. I'm on the back half. Right. And so I'm like, oh shit, I better deliver. Like, Yeah. And so I think talking to the customers helps with that side too, of just making sure that we are committed to that above all. I tell my team all the time, I don't care what we have to do as long as it's not illegal, immoral, or unethical, I will do whatever it takes to get our students to where they, where we say we'll get them by the end of our programs.

And that sets you so far apart right there. And that accountability comes through, through and through and through on your website and in all of your marketing. And I know you to be a very genuine person. Um, I very much enjoyed working with you in Level Up Creator School this year. You and I met, got to have lunch at Craft and Commerce back in June in Boise, and that was great. So I love your business model. I love your commitment to figuring out that customer journey. And now we talk a lot about in Creator School, once you've got kind of your product ladder in place, your product suite, and you know in what order you want your customers to buy things and in what order you want them to come into your funnel and then do next and next and then the first purchase, the next purchase and the next. It's a game of conversion rate optimization, right? Running your business is all about Conversion rate optimization. And now that you, again, know the customer journey because you have done this on a very one-to-one human level, look people in the eye like you said, and are telling them that you're committed to their success. It's all about getting as many people as are best fit customers into that pipeline and then into that first 6-week program that you all sell. So, I just want to point out, I have noticed from you this absolute commitment to continuous learning and experimentation to get the right people into your pipeline now that you've got the customer journey and the product ladder set up. And I know you founded a handful of businesses, and I'm wondering if you've always kind of taken this iterative, rapid experimentation approach, or is this new, newer for you in the last year or two?

So I think we all have things that we're naturally good at. And there's something about the way I'm built that like, um, I am able to sacrifice my ego for what I want. So the people ask me all the time, how can you go on a podcast, put out your shitty writing, let this guy rip it apart live on the podcast and just keep doing it over and over and over and over? And I'm like, I don't know. I wanna be a writer and I think he can help me.

Yep.

And so, um, I think that to, that One thing that I'm naturally good at, so because like the okay, so we have a guy kind of in our community, and he came to one of our workshops one time, one of our live workshops, and he came up to me, and he's like he said kind of what several people have said to me is like oh you know it's really cool that you put yourself out there blah blah blah blah blah, and I go you know hey thank you you know whatever you know and I accept it, and then he kind of stopped and looked at me, and he's like. You kind of just do that, don't you? And I'm like, yeah, it's not very hard. And he's like, okay. And so for some reason I'm able to do that. And the way it translates into business is like, I just want to get better. Like, I don't care about anything else. I want to make more money. I want to help more writers. I want to be successful. And especially now that I have StoryGrid and that's how I want to impact the world and what I want to leave behind. And I know I have a business model that I think can actually scale and grow. It's like all I want is for that to work. So then what I do is I just go out and I try to find people that know what I don't know. And then I give them money and I just do whatever they tell me to do. And I do that Because like so many times, for lots of reasons. One is I was a consultant for a long time, and if you want to drive me absolutely fucking insane, hire me and then argue with me when I tell you what to do. You know, it's like, so what you're saying to me if you're arguing with me is that you don't trust me or you don't want to do what I say or whatever. So why did you hire me? Go find somebody you trust and then give them money. And so one is I try to be a really good customer. Or client. So if I hire somebody, I try not to argue. I've tried to be extremely clear on like my rule is I'm only allowed to ask a question if I truly don't understand what they're saying, or like I need more clarity. Otherwise, I just do what I'm told. So literally, like a month ago or five or six weeks ago. Like we needed to fill up our next workshop and our workshop sales had been going down to the point where we had a workshop that was supposed to start in 3 weeks. I had 1 person signed up for it and we need, we need a minimum of 15. I really needed like 30. So I found this guy, you know, it was kind of random how I found him, but I found him, did a quick call with him and I told him, I said, you tell me what to do. And I will do every single thing you tell me to do. And he sent me this giant-ass list of shit to do. I did everything he told me to do, and we sold 35 spots. And so it's like, and a lot of it was very uncomfortable in different ways for me because it was like selling it in a way I wasn't super comfortable. It was wording things in a way I wasn't comfortable. Um, but I was like, look, I would rather do it It fail, and then I can be like, what the hell, man? I gave you money. I did what you said. And so to me, it's just like, it's a commitment to a goal. And it's like what people think of me or me looking stupid or me being wrong. Like every time I find out I was wrong, I'm like, oh, thank God I was wrong. Now I know I was wrong. I can do something right. So, um, you know, and it's like, again, I'm a little bit older. Um, I've had my ego fuck me up so many times in the past that I'd rather just like get stuff done than worry about ego. But most people I've run into that struggle with, with not wanting to iterate or whatever, they're just afraid. They're afraid of looking stupid. They're afraid of making a mistake or doing it wrong. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I've just like, I'd rather get the outcome and You know, and, and get the outcome and, and be happy with that. You never look back and be like, oh man, I look stupid, dude. I mean, it just doesn't ever feel that way. It feels way better to have something work than, than not, you know?

Oh, absolutely. I love that approach. I love your sort of like, um, just throw caution to the wind. I'm gonna hire someone that's trustworthy.

Yeah.

Uh, first of all, and then really listen to them and, and follow what they say and yeah, put my ego in the backseat. What's your vetting criteria? criteria before you'll listen to someone? I mean, how did you decide that Creator School, if you remember back that far, like, was a good thing for you to do? Or hiring this consultant a couple years ago that told you to talk to customers? What's your decision-making framework?

Um, I don't have one of those other than like, I just kind of trust my bullshit monitor. Because again, I've been doing a lot of things for a long time. So like with this particular marketing guy that I hired like 6 weeks ago or whatever, a month ago, I know enough about marketing that if I sometimes I like watch people's stuff or I'll watch their YouTube videos or I'll hear their pitch and I'm like, nah, they're full of shit. Like I've done enough to know they just don't really know what they're talking about or that won't apply to me or whatever. And so his stuff was so Clearly, like, like taking what I was already doing and like tweaking it. And then I'm like, I think that'll actually work. And he also pointed out like one thing that he said on the call and I realized it was a change I had made 6 months before. And that's when all our sales started dropping off and I was like, oh no.

Hmm.

Um, and so, so it's stuff like that. And like when we talked, it's like, I was really interested because you came from the software world. So you had a lot of structure to everything that you were doing, which I really like that. And so I thought, okay, that's like a perspective I don't get a lot because most of my friends kind of come up the way I did, which is just like figuring out online sales stuff. So to me, you bring a level of like, I want to grow a big company. And so you've worked for big companies. And so the idea that you're bringing that kind of a structure to a creator company, I thought was interesting. So I'm like, all right, Let's give it a try. So that was you know that kind of stuff. And then like the one I hired a couple years ago, she was been a friend of mine for years. So and I know she knows marketing. So I just like reached out and was like, "Can I start paying you to give me advice?" And so um so it's just that kind of thing. Probably referrals. This guy, I you know I don't really believe in God, but if there was a God, somehow he like gave me this person to call like a month ago because like this he just popped up on YouTube, this shitty video with like. 700 views and it wasn't even on a topic. It was for like coaches and I'm not a coach. And I like clicked on it and watched it and was like, oh, okay, he knows what he's talking. And then I ended up hiring him. So, um, you know, I don't know.

Serendipitous.

Sometimes a mentor shows up when you need 'em.

Yes. That is kind of an interesting cosmic thing, isn't it?

Yeah.

Um, okay, well, I'm gonna shift gears just a little bit here. Uh, I mentioned a minute ago, You know, you're in Creator School. We met at Craft and Commerce. We both spoke at Craft and Commerce, uh, this past year. Unfortunately, our sessions were at the same time, so that was unfortunate.

Yeah.

But you gave me a recap of yours afterwards, and it was clearly a very powerful session. So I'm wondering if you could give us kind of broad strokes, share a few key tidbits from your talk about how our mindset really deeply impacts our success or lack thereof. Yeah.

Yeah. So, um, I have a, I have another, uh, business coach I've been working with for about a year now, um, that, uh, is, he knows, he like helps companies grow and scale.

Mm-hmm.

And so one of the first things he did with me is he walked through this idea of, um, I'd never really done like goal setting in this way. So a lot of times You know, goal settings, like where do you want to be? You write it down, whatever. You know, there's lots of different systems, but this one was interesting because what he did is he's like, all right, we're going to take where you're at in your company and we're just going to add a zero to it. All right. So 10x wherever you're at. And when I did the, the thing in the workshop, I think I put a minimum of like $100K or something. So if you haven't started, we're just going to make it $100K. And so then what he did, there's like a whole, there's a whole system to it that I can't do off the top of my head. But generally what it is, is you now then go into the future. So it's like you get on a time machine and you go to the future and it's like, hey, welcome to the future. You don't, it doesn't matter yet how long in the future it is, but you are now there. You're now making, for me it was $7 million. And so, 'cause we've been stuck at the $700,000 mark for years. And so he's like, all right, um, what did you do to get here? You're, you're made, you made $7 million this year. So what did you do this year to make $7 million? And something about that shift of like assuming it's already happened was like, you know, so then it's like, oh, well, you know, this is how we do it. And then it's like, how long did it take to get you here? And it was funny because the guy I worked with is this kind of old school guy. He's in his 60s. He works with like engineers and architects. And so I remember he's like, how long did it take to get you here? And I was like, do you want me to answer from my gut? And he kind of looked at me weird and he goes, I don't care if you answer from your fucking earlobe, just answer the question. Okay. He's not like a gut guy. And so, you know, I said 3 years and, and then we came back to the now and it's something around like Well, you know, what are the first three things you need to do now to move into the to actually start getting there? And then like you go through this whole process, and then and then at the end you have this like you know what did you take away from this? Like not just the the the exercise itself, but it's like what did you learn about it? And I remember. The biggest, my biggest takeaway was like, I can do this. And I realized like I've been struggling for so long. I kind of just had this feeling of like, you know, it's never going to happen. But something about like this assumption that, well, it is, it's already happened. I just have to figure out how I'm going to get there.

Yeah.

So, um, I figured out relatively recently, the less I talk in my, my workshops, the better it goes. So I've just started doing things where like I let everybody teach themselves. Um, and then I, and then I did a little thing about how you need to talk to your customers and, uh, something else I can't remember off the top of my head. But, you know, thinking about like, uh, 10x-ing your business, assuming it's going to happen, then actually building a roadmap of, well, this, if that's going to happen, this is how it could happen. And then that becomes, it be, it really kind of focuses you in on like, oh, what I'm spending half my day doing every day is not actually moving me in that direction. And so let's do things that'll move me there faster because it's gonna happen. Let's just see how fast we can make it happen.

Yes. Thank you for sharing that. Mindset is so important cuz if you don't believe you're gonna be able to do it, you will not be able to do it. If you surround yourself with people who say you can't do it, you will not be able to do it. Yeah. But if you get that straight Right in your head and you surround yourself with people who are uplifting and a net add, you know, they're an investment, not a bill, you know, that kind of relationship, then you will succeed. I mean, it's just keeping your ear to the ground and doing the tactical stuff. I mean, you and I have talked a ton about, I love this qualitative data gathering you've been doing for a long time, right? The voice of customer stuff, that's all qualitative because it cannot be, there's not a number on the words that the people spoke, but you are taking, like you said before, those commonalities and rejiggering your homepage and making pretty broad changes in your business based on that information. And then you and I have started talking about now that we're in this kind of conversion rate optimization period of your business, the quantitative side of things. And so we're big on metrics dashboard and tracking things and making adjustments based on both the quantitative and the qualitative side of your business. So those go together. They're inextricably tied to be wildly successful and definitely a prerequisite to scaling your company, but, uh, I, the mindset piece is, is so big, especially in creator businesses when the creator doesn't necessarily have the marketing, sales, operations, customer success background required to be, you know, ultimately successful selling your knowledge, uh, packaged up as courses or workshops or masterminds or whatever the case may be. So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it.

Yeah.

All right. I know we're kind of nearing the end of our time here, but we gotta talk about your book and I wanna back up one step. So what has surprised you most about being both a CEO and a creator slash author? And how have you married both of those roles in a way that's helped StoryGrid achieve the success that it has, especially over the last couple of years or year?

I think the thing that I underestimated the most was the amount of work it would take. So, um, just over a year ago is when I had kind of the insight of what would fix my, my business, what would fix StoryGrid.

Yeah.

And around the time, so I'd seen this guy popping up on YouTube, but he had like long hair and he would wear these nose strips and he wore tank tops and he was jacked. And I was like, all right, that dude's gonna sell me cryptocurrency. So I'm not watching his stuff. And then a buddy of mine sent me one of his videos. So it's Alex Hormozi.

Yeah.

So I watched one of his videos and I was like, this is the best sales training I've ever seen. And so I was like, all right. So I just started watching a bunch of his videos and I, I have no idea which one it was. I mean, he said it, it's kind of one of his things, but he was just, it was this one moment I was like open to it and he's like, You, you just—it's not this. It's not this. It's just not this. You just need to work harder. And I was like, got it. And so I started. I had already made some changes in my life around the time that I had the first insight. I was like, okay, if somebody followed me around. Turned down the volume, just followed me around with a camera. They wouldn't guess that I was trying to build a business or become a writer. They would think I was trying to become a professional jiu-jitsu fighter in my 40s. And so I was like, something needs to change. So I started like cutting some things out of my life. And it— but at that moment a year ago, I was like, it became clear to me that to get where I needed to go, Because already in most of 2023, in all of 2023, I took my full paycheck from StoryGrid 3 times. So like my savings was already dwindling and I realized like I, it was going to take everything I had to turn this around. And I remember About a month into this, because then, you know, when you make the decision, when I made the decision on how the company needed to change, I cut, um, all the products that had made 80% of our income the year before. I just overnight, we don't sell these anymore. I took them off the website because they weren't helping the students get where they need to be. And so in October, um, The company just basically made no money. We barely paid everybody, and and I didn't get paid, and my partner didn't get paid. And I told my wife, I was like, "This is." I kind of let her in on what you know, like this is gonna take everything. So I need you to let me do this. And she kind of gave me the Spartan speech of like, you know, come back. holding your shield or on it. And so I just decided to put my head down and just literally do whatever it takes. And so I cut everything out of my life that I possibly could. Um, you know, I was like, I still tried to be home for dinner. Um, you know, that kind of stuff, but I was like up at 5, 5:30 AM working all, you know, a full day. You know, full, you know, 10 to 12 hour day on Saturdays. I was up at 5, 5:30 AM working until noon at least, usually doing some more in the afternoon. Same thing on Sunday. Um, and just was like, I will do this until, um, I decided I was gonna ride this to hell or it was gonna be successful, one of the two. And so, um, And I'm just starting to get to the point where I'm starting to pull back from that kind of a relentless pace.

Yeah.

And it's over a year later and like, I'm tired. I've gained weight. Um, you know, I, thankfully my marriage is still strong, but like, you know, I haven't seen friends in a long time. Craft and Commerce was the first time I had gone anywhere in a long time. And I was just like, I'm just going to sacrifice everything for this because we, to get from where we were to where we need to be was just such a huge lift. And it had to, it had to happen as fast as possible. So, you know, there's this dream of like passive income, working for yourself and all that kind of stuff. And I, I've had moments of those, you know, but I just didn't realize to get the company where it needs to be. Mm-hmm. And I feel pretty confident that like My life is going to, I'm going to get it back, you know, sometime in the next 6 months. Um, at least that's what my business coach keeps telling me. And, um, but like, I just had to make the decision of like, I want this so bad. Um, it's got to become, you know, besides my wife and kids, it's got to become the main thing. And then marrying that with the writing. I think that like one of the core stories of StoryGrid is that I always go first, right? So I never ask any of our students to do anything I haven't already done, not only done, but done it in public.

Yep.

And so when I ask you to write and I ask you to send us your writing and then we tell you that it's bad and here's what you have to do to fix it, you can go listen to years and years of the podcast of that happening to me. And so there's one thing I, you know, tell my partner and everything is like, I always have to be writing and putting stuff out. Otherwise I'm a fucking liar. And there are so many people that run businesses teaching people how to write and they never fucking write anything. And I think that's a coward. And I think it's like the worst thing you can do. And so, so it's like putting a book out, there's already pressure, but like we go out, we go further and say, this is proof of concept of StoryGrid. If you don't like this book, you might as well not even pay attention to what we're doing because this is what we're striving for. And that's like a lot of pressure to put on your writing. But I think like when— but the people that get it, they trust me now, right? Yeah. Because it's like, oh, Tim puts himself out there. Tim sends his book out. I gave copies to everybody on our email list that wanted one for free. And I was like, read it and just you decide if we're full of shit or not. And I've had some people tell us like, you're full of shit, but most people haven't. But so I think the writing for me is like, to a certain extent, I have to keep it separate because that pressure can kill you when you're trying to do the creation. But I feel like if we're gonna, I always have to go first as the CEO, right? with the employees and also first with, um, all of our students and, and everything else. I don't think that fits every company. Um, but like for our company, it makes sense that the CEO is always out front going first and doing everything in public so they know he's not full of shit.

Yep.

And so, and it's a nice accountability of like, I gotta keep writing because, you know, I gotta put something out eventually. So, uh, so that's how we kind of look at it. Um, and what was definitely Uh, the hardest part of— I don't— I think it was surprising, but it was definitely the hardest part of being the CEO.

That is so much to manage. It is so much to manage. So I think that's very impressive. But again, I think you're very genuine. You're actually a for real human being who is genuine and you're genuinely showing up in your business and you are leading your business and you are leading your staff and that example I'm sure carries forward into all, you know, client interactions and living by your values. And I think that is really commendable. I also love what you're saying about it takes so much work to run a business and you can hire, you know, consultant, you can come to Creator School or you can figure it out yourself. It's sort of like DIY, done with you or done with you or like our consulting firm, for instance. And you can get there faster and with fewer Uh, trip-ups and headaches and wanting to beat your head up against the concrete wall kind of a situation, uh, depending on how much money and/or time that you have. Like, these are the different level levers that we can pull, uh, in order to like accelerate the growth of our business and, and get it right earlier on, as opposed to hitting this 8-year mark and going, uh-oh, we gotta completely change our whole entire business model. Totally. So, again, I love the, the commitment and dedication to your craft and to leading by example. Living by your values and acknowledging that there are levers that you can pull and that you have pulled in the past in terms of time and money, but you have to work really hard to make a successful business, especially one that is in the 7 and 8 figures.

Yeah. And I mean, it was a typical kind of what got you here won't get you there, right?

That's exactly right.

Yeah. And so I, I try to tell these stories cuz like, I don't think everybody has to go through it. But also, like, if you are going through it, it's not because you did something wrong. Like, I don't see it as like I did anything wrong. That's why I found myself in this position. It's like I'm trying to do something I've never done before. This has never— what we're doing at StoryGrid has literally never been done before. Like, you look at MFAs and creative writing programs, other writing courses, they're all complete Shit compared to what we can do for people in literally 6 weeks.

Yeah.

And, and it's because my partner's a fucking genius that has figured out how this stuff actually works and then figured out how we can actually teach it. And I was the first one he taught. So again, go read my book, you know, like go read, go back to the early days of the podcast and read what I was putting out then and then read The Shithead and just tell me if I'm full of shit or not, right? And so we can actually teach people how to write. So we're trying to do something that's literally never been done before and trying to build it into a business model that's scalable. And I've never scaled a business before, right? So it's like all of this stuff at the same time was just like, it was so much that it had, you know, and I don't know how I feel about all this, but it's like there was something in me too that was like, So Sean, a lot of people listening have probably heard of the book The War of Art by Steven Pressfield and this idea of resistance, right? And Sean edited that book. So he's, he worked with Steve to write that book. And something in that book is there, there's like this tenet in the book that like the level of resistance is, um, to the level of how important it is The thing you're setting out to do. So the bigger the resistance, the more important the thing is that you need to do. And so that moment a year ago, it was almost like, okay, what this is asking, whatever this is, is asking me to sacrifice everything for it. So I'm just gonna do it. And, you know, and it's like if I. I am unsuccessful, but I gave everything. I can file bankruptcy and sleep well at night. But so it's just like, I think sometimes we get scared by our own dreams and seeing something that exists but doesn't exist yet and being willing to set out To go get that thing. And, um, if it's a big thing, uh, it's going to ask more of you. I always say, if I, if I ever knew what something would take, actually take to create what I have in mind, I would just never start anything. Yeah.

And that all comes back to mindset, right? We're bringing this full circle and we're gonna do a little summary here next, but, uh, again, congratulations on dropping the shithead. I am right in the middle of it, like smack dab in the middle. I cannot not read it every night before bed. It is gripping. It is cringe deluxe, sort of like it's the train wreck and it's happening in slow motion and you can't— you see it happening, but you cannot look away, right?

Yeah.

So it's been a really fun book to read and your writing is really, really incredible. So I do want to encourage everybody to go out and grab that. Uh, and it was cool for me. It's not, it was, it is cool for me right now to have, you know, we've had months of, you know, I have months of conversations about StoryGrid's positioning and how you run your programs and how you teach your students and where you double down, what you don't do. And it is really cool to see that all come to life. So congrats again. And we'll make sure we, uh, include a link to that in the show notes as well.

All right. Thank you.

All right. Well, let's do one more quick question and we're going to wrap And I think we've probably covered all these key points, but just to summarize, knowing what you know now, what do you wish someone would've told you 10, 15, 20 years ago about business?

So there was this moment, um, about a year ago too. I had lots of moments a year ago where, um, I got really sad because I'm like, okay, at the time I was 42. I'm looking around at people I knew, I met when on at the beginning of this journey, right? 15, 20 years ago. And like so many of them are like super successful, way more successful than me, especially monetarily. And I was talking to my wife about it and she's like, you know, Tim, she's like, the amount of personal transformation you've had to go through to get to the point where you can do what you're doing now, both as a husband, as a father, as a business owner, as a writer. She's like, that was so time-consuming and effort-consuming and consciousness-consuming that you are behind everybody else that didn't do all of that work or didn't have to do all of that work.

Hmm.

So it was like this reframing of like the work I've done. And so most of the work that has unlocked all of this stuff, I didn't do until about 4 years ago. And that was all sitting in a therapist's office. And, um, and so if there's one thing I wish I could have done 15 years ago was start going to a therapist and taking the same mindset of I will sit here and I will do whatever it takes to fix whatever the fuck is going on with me and holding me back in every area of my life. And so it didn't really break open until literally 2020 when like everybody's life was falling apart. And I did this form of therapy that was super helpful for me called EMDR therapy. I've had friends that like ketamine therapy has changed their life. I've had normal therapy has changed their life, whatever. So like, if there's one thing, even as a business owner, I wish I could go back and redo, it would be do all of that shit in my 20s or early 30s instead of when I was almost 40.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that would have changed the trajectory earlier, um, of not just my business, because I don't think I could have Um, held all of this if I hadn't built the internal structure that I needed because I was so weak internally for so long. And so, um, that is the thing that if I could go back and get my early self to do, it is like the seed of something that would affect everything in my life so much better. So like, um, yeah, so that would be the thing I would, I would go back and, and do. Yeah.

Sage advice. Thank you for sharing that.

Mm-hmm.

That's a big one. We haven't had one, that one shared, I think, in this interview series yet. So I love that. I'm also a big fan of therapy and whatever modality, you know, works for you, but try things until you find something that, that does work. But we all have stuff to work through, even if you had a wonderful, delightful childhood and amazing parents and nuclear family and all that kind of stuff. Like, we all carry things that we don't even We aren't even necessarily aware of. So, oh, that's awesome. That's a great, that's a great place to put a pin in it for today. I really appreciate your time, Tim. And I'm wondering if you would tell us where listeners can find you online and we'll again link to your book in the show notes.

Yeah, storygrid.com. Um, the most active social channel I'm on is our YouTube channel, StoryGrid. And then, uh, my book, The Shithead, is on Amazon in both ebook and print.

Very nice. Thanks again.

Thanks, Amanda.

And time is precious. Thank you for sharing yours with us. We help creators like you at levelupcreatorschool.com, where our team becomes your full-stack team of advisors and also includes no-fluff creator courses, a vibrant creator community, and more, all on a subscription basis. And you can come hang out with me and Tim. See the show notes for more information and a suite of high-value free resources. We'll see you next time on the Level Up Creators Podcast.