Industry Experts: Attorney Michael Garcia Shares Moving Laws All Movers Should Know About

Hey, my friends, it's Louis Massaro. And welcome to the Moving Mastery Podcast, where we help moving company owners all over the world take their business to the next level.

Hey, my friends, welcome to the Moving Mastery Podcast. We have such a special guest with us today. Mr. Michael Garcia is an author and attorney specializing in regulatory compliance, consumer protection laws. His firm specializes in interstate and intrastate transportation law, the representation of household goods, moving companies, brokers, bus and passenger carriers, and consumers. His law firm specializes in all matters relating to the moving industry, including regulatory compliance, training, tariff and contract publishing, safety compliance, marketing and advertising laws, and consumer protection issues. Michael literally wrote the book on the moving industry. He's published six books on moving company legal compliance, the most recent being Interstate Moving Consumer Protection and Legal Compliance Guide. Michael is a nationally recognized leading expert on all matters relating to the moving industry and someone that you definitely need to listen to. Michael, welcome to the show.

Louis, thank you so much. It is a pleasure to be with you. I'm glad to talk to you.

Yeah. It's been a few months. You spoke for us at Moving Sales Academy, and I gotta tell you.

You did an amazing job. Right? I mean, for a lawyer. I mean, most people think a lawyer's gonna be boring. And you had the whole crowd laughing and getting everybody engaged. So it was a great time.

Well, you know, you got to do your. I appreciate that. You got to do your best to make boring legal issues as entertaining as possible. I had a great time at the seminar. I was surprised to see how many people were there, that the quantity of movers and the engagement. I've done presentations where, you know, nobody wants to ask questions, but this was so interactive. It was a pleasure to do and I'm looking forward to doing it again.

Yeah, we're actually. You're going to be joining us again in October, October 5th through 7th, Phoenix, Arizona, for moving sales Academy. So I definitely look forward to that. I know there was a lot of people that weren't able to attend last few events, and, you know, people were actually asking about you and wanted to make sure you were returning as well. So we're definitely honored and glad to have you coming back.

You know, I'm excited.

Yeah, it'll be great. It'll be great. So, Michael, you know, someone listening to this show is typically, you know, a moving company owner, a manager or an employee that's kind of looking to come up within the ranks or possibly start their own company one day. And, you know, they're here for a lot of tips on how to make More money, how to have a, you know, better quality of life and set up systems and set up processes. So, you know, they're like, they may be asking Louis, why do you have this attorney on here to talk to us about legal issues? And for me, I think it's something that is so important that a lot of companies may not even realize that they need. And I, I, I mean, I know this from the companies that I work with and, and everything that I hear and all the comments I receive and emails I receive that, you know, I think there's a.

Let'S just say a lack of education or, and knowledge about the laws that govern the moving industry. And a lot of people, you know, will, will get into this business without.

You know, kind of making that part of their, you know, prerequisite for, for what they learn before they get going. And I, I just, I, I'm very familiar with, with the laws, you know, I've always had a copy of your book by my side. I think we've first met probably over 10 years ago when I, when I became a client of yours. And I remember just sitting there and you kind of telling me, you need to do this, you need to do that if you want to, you know, if you seriously want to build a long term business, you need to take this stuff seriously. And I sat there with my pen and my pad taking notes and implementing everything you said. And for me, I just think it's crucial that people hear what you have to say and understand the responsibility that they have as a moving company owner and the liability from a consumer standpoint and also from a legal standpoint. So I'm really excited to have you here. Thanks for joining us.

One of the things that I'd like to start with is, is, you know, could you share some, you know, laws that moving companies might not even realize exist and that they, they may actually be breaking the law without even realizing it. Are there some, you know, certain laws that come to mind?

Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, you made a good point. If you allow me to take a step back for just a second. You are correct. In the time that I've been working with moving companies, especially startup moving companies, it always surprises me how, you know, a company owner doesn't realize the number of regulations and the technical things that they have to do to comply with the regulations. People go into this industry thinking I'm a goober, I'm going to do good service and provide, you know, a good service to my customers, but not realizing that this is actually one of the Most highly regulated industries in the country. And when you ask about what laws a company could be violating without even knowing it, well, that's a pretty broad question because it could be many. I think the best way to answer that is to look at what the data tells us. Every year, the federal government, at least on the long distance side, releases its most common violations. What are the top nationwide, what are the top violations that moving companies have received? If we learn from that, we see that there's generally three categories of violations which are the most frequent out there. Number one is dealing with safety, particularly a driver's hours of service, how many hours a driver is on the road, driver files condition of the vehicle. That category of safety violation is probably the number one thing where companies can get into trouble and violate the law and not even know it. The second actually surprised me when I looked at the research. But the data actually shows us that a big violation for many companies has to do with the general category of marketing, sales and advertising. Giving false information and not even know that you're doing it. You know, not being particular in what you're telling customers. There's so many potential pitfalls that you can't, you know, that you don't know about or. And you may not even be able to see where you can get in trouble with your advertising, with your sales, with your estimates. The entire category of marketing and advertising. And then the third, I would guess, looking at the data where most moving companies get a violation is in the general category of tariff compliance. Tariffs, meaning what your rates are, how you charge your customers, what are the maximum and minimums, what services you can charge for. And a lot of companies really don't look at that because it is rather technical and they get in trouble for not charging the correct amount, whether it's on a state level for your local trust, state moves, or on the federal level. So generally those are the three main categories. Safety, marketing, advertising and tariff compliance. Where companies could be having violations, serious violations, every day and not even know it.

Yeah, I mean, those are, those are really good. Let's kind of go through those a little bit because, you know, I think the listeners might want a little bit more information when we talk about the drivers and the safety. I know there's some new laws out there that, you know, many are unaware of or maybe don't understand quite that much. Can you kind of elaborate a little bit on the new laws concerning safety and drivers?

The biggest change that happened very recently in our industry, and again, I'm speaking generally because there are some Limited exceptions, but generally speaking, the requirement for.

You know, interstate vehicles to have electronic logs, elogs, as we call them for it, to monitor their hours of service. And like I said, there's some small exceptions, but generally speaking, companies, trucking companies and moving companies should have transitioned already to using the E log systems. You have to make sure you're using. You're using it. Right. You have to make sure that you're using an authorized vendor. There's a lot of companies out there who are selling ELOG products. You have to make sure that the system you're using is from an authorized ELOG vendor from the fmcsa. But that probably is the most significant change on the safety side, I would say, even in the last 10 years. It's a big change, a big challenge.

Absolutely. Especially to implement that. And just to clarify, we are talking about interstate moving, long distance, moving state to state with the new E logs, correct? That's not necessarily a.

State. By state law, it's interstate law, correct?

Well, actually, no. Most states have adopted the federal rules when it comes to the safety side. So if you're operating a vehicle local or long distance, chances are you're going to have to follow the E log system. Again, there are exceptions, but we're speaking generally here.

Okay. All right. And that's. Are we talking about, like, hours for hours of service that the drivers are driving? Is that what this is all about?

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It electronically monitors the number of hours the driver is driving on duty, off duty, and so forth. So instead of, you know, the driver having to manually fill out a log book, now it's done electronically for the most part.

The.

Again, with some limited exceptions.

Yeah, absolutely. The advertising, to me, and the marketing is something that, for the most part, I think a lot of companies that have their trucks out on the road are hopefully up to speed with the laws and the new E logs and things they need to do. But one of the things that I find a lot of companies are completely unaware of is the laws behind marketing and sales. And, you know, what they can advertise, what could be on their site, what pictures they could use, what they can say and not say. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Well, yeah, and that is the second most frequent violation that moving companies are getting, at least on the federal side. But every state has an equivalent law that deals with what I'll just call fraudulent or advertising or misrepresentation. It doesn't have to be on purpose, by the way, a company could be, you know, violating the regulations and not even know it. And there's just small things that they could do. Not having their license numbers, whether it's their, their federal MC and DOT number or their local equivalent, not having the license number on their website. A false advertising violation can be as, as, as simple as having a picture of a, of, of a, of a truck that you don't use. If you have pictures of nice fancy tractor trailers on Photoshopped your logo on it and those vehicles don't actually exist and you don't even use tractor trailers, you're painting a false image to your potential customers. That's, that's not accurate and that's actually a violation. You can't say there's certain in terms of, that's the website. In terms of your estimates and your sales scripts, actual documents you use. The, that falls into the category of information you're giving to the public, advertising and marketing, and you have to make sure it's accurate. One of the most frequent ones that I see is there's some generic language that moving companies like to use that salespeople like to use. As they say, for example, that you know, we're providing a full service door to door moving service when technically that might not be accurate. If you know, if you're, you cannot say that the estimate the customer is receiving is full door to door service. If there's the potential for, you know, destination charges, unexpected charges, you know, it could be a variety of things, stairs, long carry, shuttle service, storage. If there's potential destination services that are not accounted for in the estimate, well then it's not accurate to say your estimate is complete door to door service. So you have to be very careful and precise in the language that you're using. Another big one that I see on the sales side in particular is when salespeople try to explain to consumers that, you know, the valuation options included for their move, the coverage option if something gets damaged or missing. On the federal level, the minimum valuation is limited liability of 60 cents a pound. I'm sure many of your listeners have heard about that. And then there's equivalent state laws. In some states it's 30 cents a pound. In some states it's 60 cents as well. But the minimum limitation of liability. But that is a valuation concept. It is not insurance. And your salespeople have to be careful in the language that they use. They, they cannot tell a customer that you're going to be provided $0.60 per pound per article insurance when they're really meaning valuation. Two completely different legal concepts. And it's actually misleading to a consumer to say insurance when you mean valuation. And those are just examples, you know, not using the correct terminology, leaving out information, forgetting to tell the customer, potential charges at destination, not fully describing the, the, the, the delivery windows, misleading customer. You know, there's a lot that can go wrong in the sales pitch. You're, you know, you're held accountable, the company is held accountable for what the salesperson is going to say. So it's not just the website and the advertising, it's what you're telling the customer as well. You know, there's a lot of potential hidden violations.

Yeah. And just to kind of dig a little deeper on that, I mean, so what you're saying is you can't take a picture of a moving truck or any type of truck, put it on your website with the, essentially to insinuate that that's your truck. Right. Same thing with even warehouses. Right. You can't just take a picture of random storage vaults or a storage facility and show that on your website, is that right?

Generally speaking, yes. What you have to look at is what image is this painting to a potential customer? You know, am I misleading them to be something that I'm not? For example, let's do a very clear cut example. You can't have a website that shows, you know, a truck yard with 50 tractor trailers with your logo on it, when in reality you have two straight trucks. You are misleading the customer as to who you are. That doesn't mean you have to show, you know, you know, just your two straight trucks. You're not showing any trucks at all. You're going to make or break a sale because you have a picture of a truck. But what you shouldn't do is have an image on there that's completely misleading to a customer.

And the, the one thing that we hear a lot in the industry is companies will tell customers that they're licensed, bonded and insured. What's wrong with that statement?

Well, there's nothing wrong with it if it's true. But if it's not true, you have potentially a lot of problems. And that's such a generic phrase, as generic legal phrase that people use in many different industries. But you have to understand what it means generally speaking, moving companies, especially on the interstate side, they're not bonded. They're licensed and insured for sure, but they're not bonded. So don't say you're bonded if you're not bonded. And insurance are not the same things. You have to describe what you Are if you're a broker, for example, don't say you're licensed and insured. There is no insurance requirement for interstate brokers, but there is a bond requirement. So a broker can say we're licensed and bonded and a mover should say we're licensed and insured. I know.

Somebody could be listening to us and saying, you're getting really nitpicky in terms of the words we're using. Why is it that important? And it is. I know I have my lawyer hat on here and I'm trying to give technical information, but it all comes down to is the information you're giving misleading to a customer? You have to be accurate, you have to be precise in your language and you can't mislead the customer. But you know, what are the consequences? What happens if you do violate it? How bad can it possibly be? Well, it can be bad anywhere from a minimum of thousand dollar fine per instance, upwards of tens of thousands of dollars depending on the circumstances. You know, I'm someone who likes to look at the data, likes to look at what, what the facts are before I make decisions or make statements or give advice to clients. One thing I've always found interesting is if you look at the history of the violations given to moving companies, this says a lot. The, you know, the numbers are very clear. Just in the last 10 years, if I look back at, you know, when I first started tracking these numbers 10 years ago, the FMCSA total fines nationwide were just over $18 million combined. In the last couple years they have more than doubled in terms of the total fines that they're giving people. There is such a push why, I wouldn't want to speculate, but there is such a push for higher fines, more aggressive fines, more frequent fines. You let you judge for yourself why the government is doing that. But the data doesn't lie. The, you know, the, the consequences to not following the, the regulations are real. And it could be as simple as misleading advertising. You don't even have to do it on purpose. If it's just misleading, you could have a violation.

So just to put in perspective for people, what, what are, you know, they might be saying, okay, there might be a fine here and there, maybe I get fined 100 bucks, 200 bucks, something like that. Give us an idea of the type of.

A lot more than that.

Yeah, give us an idea what, what your, what some of the fines you've seen on some of like just misleading advertising and stuff like that.

Well, you never get fined for one thing alone. That's the problem when they come in for, for one issue, they're not just going to put blinders on and only look at that issue while they're there doing a compliance review. Even if they came in on a consumer issue while they're there, they're going to look at all your safety issues or vice versa. If they came in because you had a safety problem, they're going to look at all your consumer side, your paperwork, your tariffs and so forth. So it's not just a fine by fine comparison. You have to look at the, the total action and the disruption to your business from going through an audit in itself. You know, generally speaking, when I first started working with moving companies just over 15 years ago, I would say the average fine that I would see on a company would be, you know, three, four or $5,000. Now that's, you know, substantially higher. The average fines, you know, go from 10,000 to, you know, 3,000. And in some instances, I'd say at least once a year, I get a company who comes to me who has fines, you know, you know, 100, $200,000 in penalties. Those are rare, but they do happen. They happen frequently.

That's, that's a lot of money.

It is a lot of money. And what makes it worse is that there's not a lot of wiggle room. You know, you're, you are, you know, you. The issuing entity is the federal government on the interstate side. And it doesn't cost them anything to pursue you or to, you know, enforce the fine. They don't have a limited budget that you do to fight. And one of the things I like to tell people is you have to be very careful because even if you, let's say you get a large fine for something that you didn't even know you were doing, even if you close your company to try to escape the fine, you say, you know what? I can't. I got this big fine. I'm done. I'm no longer going to be in the moving business. I'll just close down, actually close down my company. Well, that doesn't work. You know, the federal government has, you know, is immune from the bankruptcy regulations. They put in built in protections for themselves and they have the world's greatest collection department. They use the IRS to come and collect their money, and at the end of the day, they're going to get paid whether you're in business or not. So the best thing that you can do is not win your violations or win your fights with the government is to avoid all these problems.

Yeah, definitely. So let me ask you this. What I mean, so we're talking about the dot, right? Department of Transportation.

They have a division for household goods, correct?

That's correct.

And what would trigger, it's called the fmcsa. Fmcsa. And what would trigger a DOT audit of a moving company? Like, what would, you know, like what would cause that to actually happen for them to come to your office? And what could be done to avoid that?

Well, you mentioned the fmcsa, which is a subset of the United States Department of Transportation, and we're talking about that generally because it covers the entire country. But keep in mind. But even if you're just, if, you know, if someone's a local mover, only the majority of the states, with an exception of a very small handful of states, the majority of the states have an equivalent regulatory entity. Whether it's ODOT in Oregon, whether it's the California PUC or in Texas, it's the Texas dmv. Every state for local moves has an equivalent entity. So it's not just interstate long distance that you have to worry about the regulations. There's equivalent regulations at the state level as well. So when you say, what triggers an audit? This would be for both. You know, what triggers an audit, whether it's state or federal. These are, you know, I think are the main risk factors. First on, you know, just for every new moving company, if you just get a brand new license on the federal side, you're going to get audited. They call it a new entrant audit. Everybody gets visited and they just want to make sure that you have the basic operations in place. That's just standard. But, you know, other than that, there's really three categories or three main reasons why the government's going to come to see you. One is for a safety review, your drivers are getting poor safety ratings on the road. Too many violations.

You know, too many problems on the road where you're getting tickets that will automatically trigger a safety inspection where they're going to come in and they're going to see what you're doing, you definitely want to avoid that. The poor safety scores is a big trigger of violations. The other is consumer complaints. If you get a lot of consumer complaints, or quite frankly, even if you don't have that many, but you have one consumer who, who is complaining loudly, if you know what I mean. They're complaining to everybody and they just. The government's gonna come in and they're gonna take a look at what you're doing and what your records show consumer complaints is the big one. And then finally, even if you don't have bad safety scores or if you don't have a lot of consumer complaints, random, you can, you know, the government has typically about once a year, from what I have seen, the federal government conducts what they call task forces, where they pick a certain city or multiple cities and they send all their agents there and they hit as many companies at random as possible. How many reviews can they conduct? It's their way of making sure people are in compliance, despite what a lot of people would think. I know a lot of movie companies with my personal opinion in doing this so long, you know, the FMCSA in particular, they're not. They're there to help, you know, movers stay in compliance, which helps movers, helps consumers, and quite frankly, helps keep the highways safe. You know, and that's a very important job that they have.

Yeah, I agree. It's definitely. They're not to be looked at as the enemy. They are there to protect the public and make sure that, you know, we're all doing what we're supposed to be doing. You know, in the sales aspect, you know, one of the things that I teach and one of the things I preach is that, you know, you need to have a sales script. And I have many reasons for that. And one of those eight reasons is that it keeps you in compliance. Right. So what is your take on a sales script and its ability to help a company stay out of trouble?

Well, the biggest thing a sales script will do for a company is it lets management know what is being said to the customers. You know, and when you. When you have a uniform script that your salespeople are using when they're speaking to potential customers, you know what is being said, and you have a good way to measure whether or not you're in compliance. Are they saying the right things? But more than just a script, one of the things I like to advocate is monitoring as well. You know, management, sales manager or whoever in that company not only needs to issue scripts to their. To the salespeople, but you need to monitor the calls. You need to do, you know, compliance and internal compliance review and make sure that, you know, the salespeople are saying the right things. I'll tell you, one of the things I do for some of my larger clients who have, you know, large sales rooms is I'd say every. Every couple months or so, probably longer than that, you know, someone from my office or myself will actually call and pretend to be a customer and get an estimate just to make sure that the information we're being told is honest and accurate and following and in compliance with the regulations.

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree with that. I mean, in moving Sales Academy, we actually teach to monitor the calls. We have a form that we use called the moving Consultant evaluation Guide, and in that is making sure that they're accurately qualified, quoting the customers, that they're saying the right thing along with, you know, are they saying the right things to close the deal and get the sale as well? Because, you know, both are important. You need to be able to be in compliance and know that you can be in compliance and still book a very large volume of moves, you know, for companies out there. I, you know, I talk to a lot of people, I hear a lot of different things online, and, you know, some are. Feel that they kind of have to say things to be able to get a job booked, and it's just. It's just simply not true. Right. And not that it's, you know, not that it's illegal. It's. It's also just bad customer service. I mean, for me, it's. You need to have consistency between your marketing and your sales. So, number one, your marketing needs to be correct. I. I would think that you would say, like, definitely go through all your marketing and make sure that it's in compliance with the law, and that the message in that compl in your website, on your postcards with all your marketing is consistent with your sales message. Right. Like, whatever you're saying on your website should be what your salespeople are saying, and that should be what's also in your estimate. And that's what's gonna help avoid those customer complaints. Cause you said, you know, one of the main things that will trigger a DOT audit is consumer complaints. And one of the things that I hear, and I'm sure you hear all the time is, you know, my paperwork is correct. My paperwork is correct, or they signed for this or they signed for that. And, you know, talk to me a little bit about that, because to me, customer satisfaction and having correct paperwork are not the same thing.

Well, they. They're both absolutely necessary. But you're right, they're different things. The way I've, you know, one of the things I've Learned in over 15 years of working with moving companies of all different sizes is, you know, my takeaway has to be the key to success is 50% as a moving company, doing a good job, doing good work, just being a good, honest mover, getting honest estimates, being on time, you know, low Damage ratio and just doing good work on the operations side. But in a. But that's not enough. In addition to that, the, the remaining 50% is the technical compliance. This is a regulated industry. This is one of the highest regulated industries in the country. They tell you in most cases how to charge your customers, what you can charge for, you know, how you do your operations, when your drivers can drive, you know, it's a regulated industry and you have to be in technical compliance. Just being a company who does great work is not enough. You also have to have the regulatory compliance side and vice versa. Just because you're doing your paperwork perfect and just because you know you're following all the technical regulations, if you're not taking care of your customers and doing good work generally, you're not going to stay in business very long. You have to have a balance of both.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, the, the best thing you could do is have that repeat and referral customer base. Right. The best thing you could do is have those five star reviews and that a plus rating. I mean, that's going to only enhance all the marketing you do, enhance all your sales, help you close more deals. So it really should be every moving company's first and foremost.

Duty is to do a great job for their customers. Right. Put a smile on their face. What you're saying is they also need to make sure that the technical stuff is there. Because I know there's a lot of really great people in this industry with, I mean, they go out there and they put in the work, they ensure quality, they make sure that their customers are happy and have a big smile on their face. And for some companies like that, you know, that aren't getting complaints, they might overlook some of the technical stuff that could still cause them a problem. So, you know, what are some of those things? Like, I know you mentioned a tariff earlier, I'd like to dig into that a little bit too. But you know, what are some of the things that a quality company doing a great job, no complaints, could still end up having an issue with?

Well, it could be many different things. We talked about the hours of service, the safety side, marketing and advertising. And then the other, you know, going back to what we talked about a little bit earlier, what are the most common, most frequent violations out there? The third one has to do with tariffs, which is a big category for are you charging the customer properly? Are you following your tariff rates and services? You know, are you charging the right amount of money? Are you overcharging your customers? Are you allowed to give discounts or not. You know, some states for local moves have a tariff structure where it's a maximum rate tariff and as long as you're discounting the job, you know, under the maximum, you're in compliance. Whereas in some, you know, some states, and in particular the federal government, for interstate long distance work, it's what we call a fixed rate tariff. You have to charge precisely what your tariff says. So not charging the customer the right amount, whether it's overcharging or Are you ready for this? Even undercharging, charging too little in some instances can be a violation. That's how technical this gets.

And that kind of goes along with the price that you set is the price that you need to give. Is that right?

Yeah. So it's good on the technical side and it's just good business. Be honest with your customer. The price that you give them is the price that they're going to pay. Customers want as little surprises as possible, which is not easy to do in this industry, I will admit.

No, I mean, there's, there's, listen, there's no doubt about it. I mean, there's, there's people that, you know, once they find out everything that's really required to, you know, run a successful moving company, decide they don't want to do it. You know, I, it's like you said earlier, I mean, there's people that are just great, you know, there's, there's movers, right? They work for a moving company and they're like, hey, you know what? I am great at this. There's nobody that does a better job than me. I'm going to start my own company. And sometimes that happens without all the foresight of being able to, you know, know what's going to be required. Right. Not only from a legal standpoint, but just from a monetary standpoint. And just being able to, you know, have your team and the insurance in place and all, all the little things that you need to keep it going, the consistent sales. And you know, I, I know there's some new people that listen to this as well and that are just getting into the business and I, so I had some questions that, I mean, I receive emails, social media messages, I mean, hundreds, and you know, I can't get to all. And that's part of the reason I started this podcast, is to be able to share some more information for free out there to people. But, you know, as I'm going through some of these questions that we, you know, we keep them and we use them for you know, future content and videos and such that we know people need help with. I'm like, you know what some of these questions are? Michael Garcia questions? They're not. They're not really, you know, questions for me. I mean, I could answer them. But, you know, one of the questions I have here from. From someone that messaged me on social media says my company's waiting for the application process to be complete. Right. To get their license. Can they operate with a temporary or provisional license?

That's a great question. And I actually get that question on occasion as well, because in many jurisdictions, in particular for interstate, the licensing process is a lengthy process. There's a lot you have to do. Get your insurance set up. In some states, you have to take it and pass an exam. You have to go through a background check. So. So it could be several months in order to finally obtain your license. And what do you do in that time? You know, can you work? Generally speaking, the answer is absolutely not. You cannot work until your license is finally approved and you have everything in place. You know, and you have to be very careful, too. You know what you're learning? There's. I have seen that there's a lot of bad information out there, whether it's on the Internet or YouTube or just, you know, rumor or just talking to, you know, friends in the industry. You know, there's a lot of bad information out there. I even saw there was somewhere on the Internet where someone was saying, you know, it's absolutely okay to work without a license. You know, the government won't notice if you don't do it long or if you're just getting started. They'll give you a pass. And that's just not true. You have to follow the technical regulations. You Absolutely. One of the biggest violations you can get is operating when you're not licensed. So be very careful. Information you're hearing out there, whether it's on the web, whether it's just rumor.

Not all information is accurate. Check and double check your sources.

Yeah, I know there's a lot of different forums and groups online, and they share information, and that's great. I think it's very helpful for companies to, you know, be able to share what's working, what's not working. But when it comes to the law, I think you need to go straight to the source. I mean, I think they need to, you know, spend some time on the FMCSA website. I would. I know you're not. You're not a big salesman or anything, but I think everyone needs to Get a copy of your book and have that by their side to refer to when they have a question. Because, you know, it's, it's. For the most part, most of this is really black and white, right, Michael? I mean, it's not like, you know, the law is the law. Correct.

It's not only that. It's actually not that difficult to comply with the regulations. There's nothing in here that's extraordinarily, you know, hard to follow. It's, it's just, there's a lack of understanding. I, you know, probably at least two or three times a month I get a call from someone who's a foreman in a moving company currently and they want to start their own. And they have absolutely no idea what they're getting into in terms of, you know, how to start the business, the regulatory side, how to do sales. They know how to be a mover, but they don't know the other components in running a successful moving company. I, you know, one comes to, one example comes to mind. There was a guy, young, young kid, good, honest, hard worker, I'm sure, would have done a great move. But, you know, next thing you know, he, he gets a license, you know, he gets his, his federal DOT license to do interstate moving. And next thing you know, he gets a, a letter in the mail from the California puc, you know, threatening criminal charges against him because he did a unlicensed in trump state move. This guy literally did not understand the basic difference between an interstate long distance move and in intrastate local move. He didn't realize that there were two different licenses that you would need. That's just an example of, you know, you can get into this industry and get violations when just because you simply don't understand the full depth and breadth of the regulations.

Well, also, not even people that are new to the industry, but people that are in the industry that, you know, let's say they're a local moving company, but now they want to get into interstate long distance. You know, for me, for example, like, I started my company and I basically did local moves for the first seven years. I mean, I expanded into different markets, but in those markets we only did local moves. And you know, when I finally stepped into long distance, I had the time to personally, you know, invest into kind of setting it up and learning it because my other businesses were structured and, you know, in order. But I have to tell you, it was a, it was like a whole beast. It's a whole new animal that is totally different than local moves. And I Kind of warn people when they say they want to get into long distance that they need to be prepared to learn a whole new business, a whole new set of rules and regulations, and a whole new way of servicing the customer. Because it's totally different than sending a truck out for a local move that comes back at the end of the day with the money with one shipment on it. I mean, just not even legally, but just logistically and you know, customer service wise, it's a whole different animal. So, you know, it's not, you know, to your point, you said somebody that's getting into the business. I would say somebody that's even in the business, but looking to get into interstate needs to.

Yeah, but let me add on to that, but by saying just because it's different, and it is, you know, the difference between local, long distance, intrastate and interstate is very different when it comes to the logistics, the procedures and the regulations. But just because it's different doesn't mean it's difficult. We're not talking, you know, very difficult regulations here, but the first step is understanding what the regulations are. You can't follow the regulations if you don't at least know what they are.

So what would be some of the regulations that a local company that's used to doing local and now they are getting into long distance, what are some of the things that they would be surprised to see that would be different than the way they've been doing things for, you know, all the years they've been in business? If you could think of an example.

I'll give you a good example. But let me just preface the example by saying it's difficult to answer because every state has different regulations. But just as an example, what you call the estimate, what your paperwork, literally the verbiage on your estimate will be different. You know, there would be a state where you have to give what's called a not to exceed estimate, whereas on the interstate side you're only allowed to give literally either a binding or a non binding estimate. No other, no other way. And the tariff charges is another huge difference. In many states, if not most states, for local moves, they have what we call maximum rate tariffs. Where your tariff, which is your pricing structure, sets out the highest charge you can charge a customer for your services, the highest price per pound, price per cube, price per hour, depending on the service you're providing, it gives you the maximum rate. As long as you discount that to a number under the maximum rate, you're fine. What surprises most people on the interstate long distance side is on that side there's what we call a fixed rate tariff where you have to charge exactly what the tariff says. You cannot charge more, that's overcharging. And you cannot charge less. That's undercharging. So that would be an example of a big difference between how you would operate from a compliance perspective on a state level versus an interstate level. Just the basic pricing structure itself is different in most cases.

So for somebody that, that needs a tariff for interstate, you know, what are some of the different ways that they can, they can get a tariff, get it set up and get it, you know, basically written the way that they need to, to be compliant?

Well, you know, you really want to have a custom tariff that.

Shows what charges and services that you're, you're offering. You know, I would say go to professional, not to, you know, plug my services. But you know, that's what we do. We write tariffs for people, we make sure it's done right.

And with that you also do the paperwork, the bill ladings order for service, all of that too. Right.

Everything that's included. Whoever on the long distance side, on the long distance side, you know, whoever. What I rule of thumb, I like to say is whatever company does your tariff should also do your, your paperwork, your shipping documents, simply because they have to match whatever terminology and legal terms and conditions you put in your tariff have to be identical to the legal terminology and terms and conditions you have on your paperwork. But that's on the long distance side.

So you know, your business for the most part, and your book too revolves around long distance interstate moves. What advice would you give a local moving company that wants to have that assurance that they are in compliance with their state regulations?

The same thing I would tell a long distance mover. Find out what the laws are, understand the regulations, learn what they are, and then follow those regulations. And there's several different sources that you can go for that you know, moving storage associations, your state, your regulatory agency, whether it's the state or the federal government will have information on there for you. You can even go to my website. I have a ton of free information for moving company interstate side. But here's something that a lot of movers don't think about. A good tip. I think in most jurisdictions, in most states and on the federal level for interstate consumers are required to be given a booklet of some site rights of some type, rights and responsibilities when you move, consumer rights during the move, whatever it's called in your particular jurisdiction. You know, an owner of a moving company can start with simply reading that document. What information are you giving your customers? What are they being told the law is? You can at least start there.

Yeah, I think that's something that even if you've been in business for a long time, even if you've been doing things the same way for a lot of years, you know, if this, if this conversation and this episode sparks something for you and it interests you, and it would be worth it to spend a little bit of time and read whatever material they have in your state because you'd be surprised that you may not get notified of new changes and new laws that get implemented. You know, we had locations in, in several states and you know, sometimes we weren't aware of the, the updates unless you're being proactive about finding out what they are. So. Yeah, definitely. And Michael, just to make sure your website is. Michael Garcia, law.com.

That'S right.

Okay. So yeah, that you guys could go ahead and get some information on your state agencies there. I mean, you could also, you know, check out Michael, his books there as well. What would be, you know, three keys to success for any moving company listening?

And I already know what you're going to say. You're going to say it's a, it's.

A very broad, broad question.

So let's, let's say three keys to success for legal compliance in their sales and marketing specifically.

Well, if I wanted a. Someone listening to this to take away, you know, good information that they can actually implement in their company right away, I would say that it starts with, you know, take, do an internal compliance audit. Look at what you're currently doing. Look at your website. Read the information on there. Are you giving honest, accurate information? Is the imagery you have on your website an accurate reflection of your company? Look at your sales scripts. So internal compliance review. Look at your website, look at your sales scripts. Look at your estimates. What information are you giving to the public and is it in compliance? I think that is one. Do your own internal compliance review. Second, I would say is monitor the sales calls. You get a lot of information, you know, by listening to those calls or recordings of those calls, you want to know exactly what your salespeople are telling potential customers. Is it accurate information? Is it the message you want to give? And you know, and is it in technical compliance with the regulations as well? And then finally, I would say ongoing education, ongoing training and retraining in this industry, whether it's at a state or federal level, the regulations change frequently. The interpretation of the regulations changes frequently by the government and you have to make sure you're following the most current regulations. And also in this industry, what I have seen, there's a high amount of turnover. You know, you get new salespeople all the time. You get new, you know, foremen and drivers all the time. And you want to make sure that any new people coming in, you know, are up to your standards in terms of following the regulations. You know, they may have come from a previous company that didn't follow the regulations and they may bring those bad habits with them. So, you know, ongoing training. So I would again, just to recap, you know, take away from this, do a quick internal compliance review. Look at your website, look at your estimates, look at your sales scripts and make sure they're in compliance. Monitor sales calls, know what your salespeople are telling your potential customers and then make compliance and a priority. Make it an ongoing function of your business. Have training and retraining on a regular basis. This is a highly regulated industry with substantial potential penalties. You'll want to make sure you're following the law. I think it's a great industry. All the people I have come across who own moving companies, who work in moving companies for the most part for the, you know, are good, honest, hard working people who want to do the best for their customers, you know, and then they went in with, with the best of intentions and they're, they're just great people. You know, I just see my role is to help them on the technical side and, and that's the biggest takeaway I can give owners of moving companies is understand and follow the technical regulations as well as provide great service and continue doing a good job for your, for your customers.

I think that's great advice, Michael. And just to, you know, recap on that, I mean, you know, it, it may sound like a lot of work to someone, but it's really not. Regardless of what level you're at, if you're a one man show, you can do this. If you have a team, multiple locations, you could do this. I mean, what he's saying is internal compliance, audit, website, sales scripts. You know, take your website and you know, block an hour on your calendar and just sit and read what you have written on there and see if it's accurate or not. If there's something that needs to be changed, you make the change. If you have a sales script, which you should definitely have sales scripts to keep everybody saying the same thing and leading the customer to book their move, read those sales scripts and make sure everyone's following them, you Know, as far as monitoring your calls, you can do that with a very. You know, most phone systems will allow you to record. And if you are recording, make sure you do. Let your customers know you are recording. Download a file and listen to one sales call a week from a random person and just see what they're saying. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, Michael, but if you. If your salesperson is misleading a customer or saying things that are not accurate or not in compliance, wouldn't the owner of the company be. Or the company itself be liable for that?

Many people could be liable for that. If the sales. That's true. If the salesperson is giving wrong information, the corporation itself can be held civilly liable. But in addition to that, in some instances, the owner of the company can be held both civilly and criminally liable. And the salesperson themselves, even if they don't own the company, they can also be held liable. So there's enough liability to go around for everybody. And that's why I say prevention is the most important thing. You want to avoid these problems. You don't want to have to pay me by the hour to help win your cases. You. You know, I'd much rather see you not have the cases to begin with.

Absolutely. Better. Better to have some prevention. Number three, the ongoing education. I mean, that's, you know, it all starts with just starting, right? I mean, if it seems overwhelming to, you know, read all of the laws on FMCSA's website, you know, start, you know, read one a week, just, you know, get. Start getting in the habit of just absorbing information. Because if you're serious about building your business, this is stuff you need to be aware of. Why? Because you know what? You don't want to be in a position where you're moving along. You're crushing it. You're just, you know, getting to that next level, and then all of a sudden you realize you're doing something you're not supposed to be doing. A little technical violation that can come and. And really knock you off your track on that road to success. So, you know, I would highly recommend everybody pick up a copy of Michael Garcia's book, which is Interstate Moving Consumer Protection and Legal Compl. Compliance Guide. You know, read the FMCSA website for information there. Keep listening to this podcast where we share information to, you know, not only help you profit in your business, thrive in your life, but also stay out of legal trouble as well. And, Michael, I just want to say thanks so much for taking the time to be here. I'm I'm. I'm really looking forward to sharing the stage with you again in October this year at Moving Sales Academy. And I, I'm sure we're going to have a bunch of questions about this and a lot of feedback. So, you know, I'm anticipating we're gonna have a part two to this conversation coming up soon.

Well, I'm very happy to do it. It was an absolute pleasure, pleasure talking to you. I look forward to seeing you again at the next Sales Academy.

All right, so thanks everybody for tuning in to this episode of the Moving Mastery Podcast. Go out there every single day. Profit in your business, thrive in your life. I'll see you later.

I hope you enjoyed this episode. I'd really love to know what you guys are thinking about this particular episode. Do me a favor, jump onto itunes real quick and leave me a review about this episode. I look at my Apple podcast reviews to get an idea what you guys are thinking, what you're liking, what you're not liking. So please go there and leave me a review. It really helps more people to discover, to podcast podcast and really shows engagement in the community and lets me know what you're thinking. I'd love to know what you're thinking and be able to interact with you. And I do that through Apple Podcast reviews and also through Instagram. So hit me up themovingmasterypodcast. I'd love to see where you're listening to this right now, what device you're listening on, and what you learned from this particular episode. So take a screenshot of you listening to this right now. Drop me a message on Instagram. The Moving Mastery Podcast. I'm always giving shout outs to those that are listening and returning direct messages to those that are listening. So make sure you show me you're listening to the Moving Mastery Podcast. It really helps me keep this thing going and not feel like I'm just sitting here talking to myself. So thanks so much for being a part of this one. Until next week, go out there every single day, profiting your business and thriving your life.

Sam.