9. Unilever Senior Sustainability Manager Olivier Floc'h on career pivots, infusing sustainability with profitability, and how consumers are wising up to Greenwashing

Hello, bonjour, ni hao and salut. Welcome back to the Impact around the World podcast. I'm Cassandra Pittman, EDEC's country manager for the UK and Ireland and host of the show. In this episode, I am so pleased to be joined by Olivier Flock. Olivier graduated From EDEC in 2007 with a master's in Management. He is now a marketing professional with over 10 years experience across food, skin and hair care brands at Unilever, where he currently serves as a Senior Sustainability Manager across the entire uk. He supports Unilever's marketing teams to define, embed and activate a sustainable living purpose that is true to the brand roots and products and relevant to the people it serves. Enough from me. Please enjoy my interview with Olivier Flock. Olivier, lovely to have you here today.

Lovely to see you again.

I know it's been too long. For the benefit of our audience, Olivier and I met. Gosh, how long ago did we meet, Olivia? Like seven years ago, Six years ago?

Yeah. So I think we met now seven years ago because you were instrumental to my career shift. So I remember very well when we met.

Oh, that's really kind. Yes, we met. One of the many hats that I wear for EDHEC is providing some executive coaching for our alumni. And I know we had some sessions and you came with a desire to move into sustainability and you quickly made that happen. So let me back up for the audience. Why did you decide to work in consumer products marketing? What was that decision like in the beginning? And then can you take us on the journey from when you decided to move from selling shampoo to working on sustainability?

I think I started working in consumer goods and marketing probably because I was attracted to this world. There wasn't like a very sort of. I wasn't convinced I wanted to do that from the age of 12 or anything, but I think I was quite interested and fascinated by the sheer size that these kind of businesses have. And it's something that's been quite consistent even especially now that I work more in sustainable transformation. I think I was also very interested in honestly what marketing is, which is that marketing is about understanding what people want and understanding how to influence people into desiring a product. The good thing about consumer goods is, versus, for example, more complicated industries because I work quickly in automotive industries, is that the marketing is a bit the lead role. So it's really about the marketing. And Uneven describes itself as a marketing company. So I was like, okay, I want to know about marketing. I'm going to go to the self proclaimed best marketing company in the world. That's why I joined Unilever. And I really enjoyed this sort of double talent that you grow, which is both understanding how people live, what people want, and also how to sort of influence them. And then this is when we actually met because I was not happy. So I was not happy because I think I was just not finding probably enough purpose in what I was doing on a day to day basis. And I think it was deeply personal, but I wanted to contribute something to something that was giving me more energy but also giving back more. And so this is how, I mean, we sort of like structured the coaching approach and during the coaching we sort of like had lots of twists and turns and at some point we clicked. I mean, I clicked and said, okay, I really want to work in sustainable transformation. And this is how I started sort of operating this career shift in sustainable business and sustainable transformation.

And since you have. So that was about seven years ago you did another course at Cambridge in sustainability. How instrumental was that? Further education in your ability to make the career change. Do you think so?

That's a very good question. Because when I considered doing this extra. So it's a postgraduate certificate. When I considered doing this extra diploma, I sort of consult a lot of people. Some people say, well, you shouldn't bother. You are in a company that has already kind of a lot of expertise in sustainability. And some people say, well, it's also a good opportunity to accelerate your understanding of the field. And I decided to go more for that rational and invest into doing this extra diploma. So I really saw it as an accelerator of my expertise in sustainability. The fact is that the role that I have right now, and I think that most of the roles that I will have in the future will probably always have an anchor in business, in strategy, which corresponds to my sort of original skill base, which I got at edhec around management. But I think sustainability was something I wanted to add as a big layer to my profile and the fastest way and sort of most serious way of doing it was to do an extra diploma. So I'm really glad I did that. I think it gave me a lot more credibility with the people I interacted later, gave me a lot faster understanding of issues. So, yeah, no, I think that was the reason.

As an outsider, it feels like Unilever has really consciously carved out a name for itself in this sustainability space. And without being able to name all of the different sustainability initiatives they have, I have this feeling about Unilever that they are trying to put sustainability at the core. And I Guess if I can expand the definition of sustainability that we tend to think about it, not just sustainability, but just kind of a positive social impact. Would you say that those are values that are lived at every level of the organization, or is it still kind of a learning process and development process.

Going to say something very commonplace? It's an always learning process, Cassandra. That is somehow true. It's an endless journey. However, that said, I think so the sort of big bang was 2010. The first big bang of sustainability was 2010. And it was still sort of somehow, unfortunately, early days for embedding sustainability within businesses. And it took a solid, I would say, five years. That's me talking, but I would say it took a solid five years to start trickling down in the culture of the organization. And throughout the sort of more various layers then you had other external factors such as the, I would say the plastic big bang. So the David Attenborough Blue Planets documentary really shook things up around the plastic issue, which is one of the most material issues for a company like Unilever. And although there were already lots of initiatives in the organization, I think it really pushed the organization to go further to your question. Everybody in the organization to live and breathe it. I think the thing that I'm mostly proud is when you look at Unilever now and its new sustainability strategy, which is called the Compass, and the way it's structured across the organization, it is a lot closer to the business than it was before. So before you had a sustainability strategy a bit on the side and a business strategy, business strategy being the most important thing. It's sustainability strategy a little bit kind of like, okay, we're going to try to do the thing at the same time, but not exactly sure it's going to work. When you look at this business now, it has a blueprint, I think, for a lot of other organizations to follow, where sustainability and business are completely integrated. You have dedicated sustainability strategies for each of the large divisions of Unilever, which means there's a lot of closer to the actual issues that each division has because a food business will not have the same problem as a home care business. And that's something I've been really, really, really influencing on because I've been working on pioneering different approaches of embedding sustainability strategies within the business. And we sort of trial many different things, but the things that work the most are the ones that are the closest to the business. And I've been working on trialing this for many years now. And I'm really, really proud because this is now the blueprint across the organization for sustainability deployment.

What ways do you see? I think sustainability can sometimes be construed as the thing that we do because it is responsible to do. And there's definitely that aspect of it. But do you believe there are ways in which Unilever is infusing sustainability that actually make it more profitable?

It's an interesting question because I think it's in probably every single communication manager Q and A around sustainability within Unilever there is this question because the answer is that Unilever says proudly it is about business and being responsible at the same time. Because if we are responsible, profit will follow. So it is an end. It's never be an or. So if you say, I mean the sort of criticism which honestly I've heard so many times, sometimes it's from very cynical people. Oh, you only do that for the profit. Well, this is a capitalist world and so far it's been the best system out of many failed systems. That seems to be working okay, not so well, but well, this is the game and the system will locked in for now. So if you take that as a starting point, then profits are not a wrong thing. And the answer that Unilever has is, well, if we are doing the responsible thing, profits will follow. And when you get a bit more granular, and I think it's something that has been a lot more evidenced in the recent years, is that sustainable brands or brands that are perceived as being more sustainable by consumers are brands that are winning in the marketplace. So if you look at a brand like Dove, which is one of the, and I say sustainable sustainable in this sort of wide terminology, so both environmental and social. But a brand like Dove is one of the strongest equity brand equity of the group. And it's because it's a brand that has invested in being more than just a soap manufacturer. Engaging society and conversations such as self esteem, positive representation of beauty, harmful stereotypes and consistently for the last 15 years or probably more, 20 years, and you see this brand growing and growing and growing consistently in the market. So when you do the right thing, profit, and you do it well because sometimes you can also do it wrong. But the profits will follow. And something that is in my remit is actually to ensure that sometimes we don't have greenwashing initiative, but it's not so much of a risk. I would say now in Unilever people have understood that it was not about greenwashing. But I would say if you are unsure about something you're doing within your organization and you think, is it a bit greenwashing? That's my piece of advice is like, don't let that go. Go to the bottom of it and see and never greenwash because you will ruin it and you will ruin trust.

So I'm interested in something you said at the beginning, which was a few years after your career, you work for the best or the leading marketing consumer products company in the world and you find yourself unhappy. Just interested for our listeners to try to learn from your experience. What was your process like identifying what could make you happier and then how did you go about making that transition happen in a time frame that was suitable to you? So not thinking for 10 years how you'd love to do this and then never making it happen or what have you, but making it happen in a suitable timeframe so that you could be on a happier track. Can you just tell us a little bit about that process?

Yeah, absolutely. I think the first is reaching out for help. And I think you were the helper being the coach and I think it's very, I mean, we're laughing, but it's really important because like you can't do that completely on your own. I mean, especially for, I think for most people you need to kind of bounce things at someone and get like someone to challenge you to, to reflect and help you reflect. And I think as a coach you do a lot of open questions and this is what you did. And that was like, it's something I couldn't have done myself. So I would say reaching out for help was. And kind of like being in this state of mind, okay, I'm not happy, I'm going to do something about it and oh, okay, maybe going through a coaching process could help then. I think what for me was really the sort of haha moment or unlocks was reflecting on what were the moments where I got the most energy from my job and deeply thinking about, okay, when was I the most happy to go? When was I like not dwelling on an email for like a week because I was like, oh, I don't want to do that. Oh, but this I want to do. This is so cool.

Oh, we can all relate to that. I think every person that's ever had a job can relate to the. I'm just going to pretend I didn't get this email for a little while.

Exactly. And this is the thing is there was a lot of these emails and a few of these emails which were really making me happy. And I would say now it's a bit the opposite. Of course I Still have the annoying email. I'm not jumping like a happy bunny every time I have a request, but I'm a lot happier to do most of the things that I do. So reflecting on these moments, and I think that's the second thing, the third thing was kind of talking to relatives, talking to my family, talking to some of my friends to kind of also help a little bit understand myself more and see where I could be interested. And then when I identified, so that was for identifying the space I wanted to grow in. And once that was sort of identified, well, it was a bit like taking a bit of a risk. I mean, I was convinced I wanted to do that, but it was taking a bit of a risk. So, for example, investing in this postgraduate certificate at the CISL at Cambridge without really knowing if it would pay off, then I was really lucky in the sense that I found an opportunity, which is a bit of a outlier opportunity, to work in R and D on developing a sustainability strategy for sustainable packaging, which was a short term opportunity. And I decided to take it. I was like, well, I mean, it might lead nowhere or it might end and I don't have a job. But I took a little bit of a risk. I have to say it's not easy because I'm quite risk averse. But I think I had reached that point where I was like, I need to make a move and make a change. And that was really important. And then the last thing I want to say is, and I think it's something that really stuck with me is I had reached that point where I was a bit like, oh, I want to ditch everything that I've done in the past. I'm not happy. And you say to me, well, sometimes it's not about that. You need to identify what are your strength, what are the things you like in what you've built already. Take these, leave the rest.

And what is next for you? Do you think?

That's a good question? Because I think it's, I mean, so it's been now six years, I mean, six, seven years, and it's a little bit like, what's the next, as you say, what's the next step? And something I could be either through maybe gaining more leadership and more influence. It could be, for example, going out of Unilever and doing something still in the same space, but helping other companies. I think the bottom line is I'm driven by impact. I want to have an impact because this is what kind of gives me energy. And the idea is like, right now, what's Next for me is really reflect on what's my next step and identify where am I going to get the impact that I want and at the same time get the same level of energy and happiness I get from my job.

Do you have any advice? I mean, as you're somebody who is working on infusing sustainability, making sustainability work for the business and for different parts of the business. Do you have any advice for people who might not want to have a sustainability career, but who care deeply about this issue, but how they can go about infusing a little bit more sustainability into the way that they work into their businesses or into their lives?

It's a good question. There is a personal dimension to it, which is that. And it's something I remember when I did this program, the postgraduate certificate program that was talked a lot is that infusing sustainability in your work can. I mean, you can't really do that if you're also not re. Infusing a little bit into your life. And I would invite everybody to kind of do these two things at the same time. And I mean, you can't be perfect, but it's at least doing stuff that will make you feel like you are more in line with your values. So, for example, I became. Most of my diet is vegetarian or vegan. I have a bit of flex, but it's something that for me was very in line with what I wanted to do, because most of these stability problems, they're systemic problems. We're not bad people who want to destroy the planet. We're just trapped into systems. And the more people understand that and are keen to kind of drive this system to change and pull the right levers, the better it will be. So I think without completely changing your role, understanding what is the impact of your role and the impact you can have and then grow from there.

When you and I first met, let me think. So if it was seven years ago, I don't think the Brexit vote had happened when we first met. How has that, if at all, the fact that we now have left the European Union affected you, either your business or you personally?

From a business perspective, I would say that I don't know enough about how it's been affecting Unilever, but it's a multinational, so most of the business is outside the uk. It hasn't really changed anything. Of course, I can't deny it's been very complicated for a lot of people within Unilever who had to adapt to this. And there's been a lot of work done in, for example, in the supply chain, to prepare for the Brexit. I know that there was also a choice to simplify the structure, which was a double structure both in the Netherlands and the uk. And it was decided that first they would move to the Netherlands, was rejected by the shareholders, then they moved to the uk. So now I work for a fully, legally British company. But I think the sort of main impact is that whilst before it was easier, at least for people to consider, for example, people like me in France or in Germany or in Italy in the Unilever business were like, oh, I could go to London to kind of like go to the head office and participate to the global team effort. It's a bit more difficult to think this way when Brexit has happened. I know it's made easier because multinationals can sort of have international talent coming, but it still makes it difficult. So, of course, lots of impact. But I would say from a business standpoint, because it's such a large multinational parading across so many countries, it hasn't affected too much from a personal standpoint, it's made me sad. It's made me really sad. I'm now a British citizen and when I got my passport last year, it was black because of the new color. It was not the European Union color. And I have to say, the only thing I'm hoping is that within my lifetime it will become this Burgundy. Call her again and that the UK will rejoin. And I'm optimistic, I mean, first, that I will live long enough to see that, but that it will happen as well. So it made me sad and felt a bit like I didn't really have a say. And, I mean, yeah, I mean, that was not for me to say anything and, yeah, quite disempowered. But I think it made me also feel like there is really a responsibility for people who are in power.

Yeah, I think I also. I didn't really appreciate how much the value of internationalism had to be defended. Right. I thought. I kind of felt that those battles had been fought and won and probably, like, a lot of people got a bit complacent about that. So I'm trying to do my part as well. Olivia, if people want to learn more about Unilever and what they're doing with sustainability, or just about the field of sustainability overall, where do you think they should go?

So, first, the Unilever website sounds a bit lame. I'll go to a corporate website, but apparently, according to the comms manager, it's one of the most visited corporate website Ever. And it's, it's pretty cool. You have a lot of good content on there, lots of articles and I think it expresses Unilever's vision on sustainability in a very approachable, fun, understandable way. So I would definitely go there. There is also a take action hub if people want to understand what, for example, some of the brands are doing and how they can get involved. There is for, let's say organizations who are like listed startups who have new technologies that want to contribute to sustainable transformation of some of the technology structure we rely on, there is an open innovation portal. So there are lots of kind of points of entries. Obviously there is the social media channels of the organization that LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. But I would say for people who want to have like quite more of a deep understanding and knowledge, the Unilever website is a good entry point. And then if you have a Unilever colleague, talk to them, sorry, Unilever friend talk to them. Because we're Unilever people. It's like, it's very creepy. As my therapist says, one of my most reliable and long term relationship I've had in my life was Unilever. So I wear that as a proud, weird mark of honor. Anyway.

Great, thank you so much. Have a wonderful day and enjoy some of this rare sunshine. Impact around the World is an initiative of the pioneering edhec delegations team and EDHEC alumni. A huge thank you to my fellow country managers, Patricia in California, CC in China, Nilesh in India and Joyce in Singapore for making these interviews happen. We are committed to building a community beyond the classroom for you, our 46,000 alumni in over 125 different countries. Follow us on Twitter @EDech alumni or visit the alumni website at Alumni Edec. Edu to find out more about how you can connect with the EDEC community close to you and around the world. Thanks for listening.

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