https://www.listennotes.com/e/4ece01969a774dd08e53c8b92c709ef8

Today's episode was sponsored by Birthing of Giants.

It's one thing to say that you want to have a great culture, but it has to be built and it has to be inherent to who you are as a leadership team and how you show up every day. And you have to be consistently looking at it over time. And you have to have the right sort of framework and structure in place to be able to actually have the culture be the living sort of breathing representation of the business.

Everybody. Welcome to another season of the Rocket Fuel podcast, where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind the scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create Rocket Fuel. I'm your host, Mark C. Winters, co-author of Rocket Fuel and an expert EOS implementer. Today, I'm thrilled to be talking with Meg Carpenter and Katie Johnson of FICO Partners, champion problem solvers who transform RIAs and wealth asset managers through multidisciplinary and human first marketing strategies. Meg acts as CEO and visionary, having co-founded FICO in 2012 after years in business development. Katie serves as the president and integrator with over 20 years of experience in communication strategies and employee management. In this episode, we'll explore how having the right person in the wrong seat impacts the visionary integrator relationship and company culture. Meg and Katie also share their insights into balancing a friendship and a business partnership, and how it's helped them both become better humans. We're kicking off the conversation with Meg discussing the challenges of switching integrators and her initial struggles with the Visionary Integrator relationship. Let's jump in.

So I'm actually on Integrator 2 and Implementer 2.

Okay.

And I think that what I really experienced is that it's so important to have core values Well defined and integrated in, in and across the business. And ultimately the former integrator that I worked with, and I just did not have cultural alignment. And so that, that got to a point where that just, it's unsustainable. It doesn't work.

Yeah. And I'm sure it probably was uncomfortable for both of you. So where did that first integrator even come from? How did you get connected with them?

Well, so she was employed at FICO before we started EOS. So her role was not to be, I didn't hire her to be the integrator. She was sort of the number two person at the company. And so when we decided as an organization to launch EOS and started working with an implementer, given her skill set and my skill set, it made sense for her to step into the integrator role in addition to, you know, what she was doing day to day.

So then you get into the relationship and, you know, things aren't Feeling right, right? The core values, when they don't align just right, you can typically, it's a feeling thing. You can sense it, you can see it, it just kind of shows up and it starts to get uncomfortable. So you realize this and you do what?

Well, I think every entrepreneur and business owner and also anyone on the leadership team has the experience of you often know what you need to do long before you sometimes do what you need to do because there's a lot of I don't know, uncertainty and people are people and I care about people and there's some fear associated with making changes, especially on the leadership team. And you've got clients and you've got people to take care of. And so hindsight's always it's much easier to say looking back, well, I knew what I needed to do long before I did what I needed to do. But I think that that's a reality that many of us live in day to day. So I ultimately it just came down to having to have the tough conversation around like, are values aligned? Are you the right person for this role? How are we seeing that or how are we not seeing that? And, you know, given, given the truths, what do we need to do to move forward? And ultimately it was the right decision for both of us, as it typically turns out when you have mismatch of values and you have wrong people, right seats, right people, wrong seats. It always works better to get people in the right place. And so it happened to be at a time where Katie was thinking about making a transition from her former place of employment. Katie and I have been friends for over 20 years. I've long wanted to work with Katie, and so it felt like the time was right to, and that was a sort of another reason that I think I gained some confidence to do what I should have done with the former integrator because I knew that I had the right integrator on the other side.

Got it. So you feel, you mentioned the word fear, which is very real and very common, right? So we get in that tough people situation and for all a variety of reasons, it's like, oof, should I do it? It's gonna hurt. Is it the right thing to do? And all of those things. So you get some confidence because Katie, now there's an opportunity that you can kind of make that change that sort of spurred you on. Before we move on to Katie, looking back on the situation with the prior integrator, if there was one thing you could do differently about it, what would it be? If you had that whole first integrator situation to do over again, if you could do one thing differently, what would it be?

You know, it's tough, Mark, because I think part of it is, for us, EOS was new. And so we were learning and growing into it. And a big part of EOS, which is why you're doing this podcast, is the visionary integrator relationship. But it's all new. Like it's all new concepts. And so I think it would have taken time to just understand like what the role was and what was needed and expected out of the role. And so I'm not sure. that I would have done anything differently. I think even forget about whether or not she was the integrator. I think anytime you have a person at the business who's not aligned with your core values, what I would have done differently is I would have acted faster.

Yeah, that's what I was anticipating you were going to say. But I love what you said before that, which is basically you had to learn. You had to learn certain things in order to be able to make the decision that you ultimately made, right? and so, and that's true. We can't forget that, right? We don't know everything. And frankly, that's a big reason for this podcast is to help us try to learn a little bit from each other so we don't all have to suffer through the same mistakes every single time. So perfect. All right. So, Katie, you are out there doing your thing, whatever it is. You've been friends with Meg for a long time, and then you get the call or email or however it happened to come down. And she says, hey, Katie, have you thought about And so talk to me a little bit from your seat about how that all went down.

Yes, well it definitely wasn't just one email or call. It was multiple over the course of at least two years. And so, you know, what originally, like my career journey, I had helped build a company that was acquired by Goldman Sachs. And so in that, they called me when that acquisition, 'cause it was, you know, well known in the wealth management space, they called me that day and said, Celebrating you and Let's talk. And so, you know, we just started talking and then I had made the decision, you know, what's best for me and my family to stay on at Goldman for a couple more years, but I knew that I wanted to end up at FICO. So that was my goal. Like it was part of my career journey. I had always worked in like smaller boutique businesses and helped build that. And I always thought, what would it be like to work at a very large company? And so Goldman was going to give me that opportunity and that experience. And I learned quickly I loved Goldman. I think if I would have started my career at Goldman, I would have been a lifer. It's wonderful people, smart people doing great things, but I miss that entrepreneur-like spirit. So I quickly knew probably within a few months that, sure, I had these old and handcuffs. I need to stick around for two years, but my long-term plan is I would love to land at FICO. And so that's really where the conversations had had. And so Meg was very transparent, and I think that's really the the foundation of our relationship is that transparency with one another. There was one point probably a year into that two-year sprint where she had shared with me, we made the business decision, we're implementing EOS across the org, explained to me a little bit about what it was. And she said, as part of this, I need to have someone in this integrator seat. And obviously she said, I know where you are, but I want to give you the opportunity to put your name you know, in the hat. And I just, I couldn't do it just based on what we had made a decision as a family. And so May was very transparent with me and said, Hey, I'm going to move forward with the person internally to put them in this role. And, you know, I celebrated it, but it was like, let's just continue to talk about it. And so and then through that, I actually over that course, the integrator had started, I had actually met with the integrator because the long-term plan was that I would love to land at FICO in a couple of years. So Meg, so let's just continue the conversation. I was going out to New York a lot. She was in New York, so I went to lunch with the integrator. I was really impressed with the business that was being built by FICO and it just reinforced wanting to be a part of it. And so it was interesting as Meg and I started, you know, continuing to talk about what that role is. And I separately with Meg in our previous integrator talking about it, the integrator had actually brought my name up as could I be a solution to her replace. So that it was a little bit serendipitous and beautiful in that sense because it truly, it was truly meant to be. And I think we all, including the former integrator, she is someone we still speak to often. We leverage her because she is amazing and she has zones of excellence that we do not hear. And so we tap into that still to this day. And so it was just something to be celebrated and it just kind of came full circle that it was like, okay, this is the right role for me and for FICO.

So Meg, back to you. One of the dynamics I see a lot is we get anxious to make a hire. We get anxious to make the pain go away of either having the wrong person there or not having anybody there and it's all on our plate and we know that if we don't solve this quick, more is coming on our plate. And so that shows up in the the visionary getting an integrator as well. So here, you've got history. I'm sure there's trust there. It's got this feeling of it's just all kind of flowing. It's just like all of it's kismet, it's meant to be, it's whatever you want to say about it. Was there something, knowing what it feels like to be wrong and knowing what it feels like to have made a mistake and kind of the pain and frustration that goes with that, was there anything in particular you were really trying to vet or just make darn sure that, you know what, that this piece of it is right before you actually made it official and said, all right, Katie's going to be the integrator. Was there something you were looking for there?

Well, first of all, I've made so many mistakes. I'm quite familiar with that.

Haven't we all?

And I still do every day. That's how we learn. I think that I had gotten to the point in my career. So Katie joined three years ago, 2021, about nine years into being an entrepreneur. and I think when I originally became an entrepreneur, I had a lot of confidence in my people management capabilities because I'm a people person and I care very deeply about people and I have strong natural leadership capabilities. And so I, I thought that that meant that I was a good manager. And the truth is, I'm a terrible manager. No surprise for all the Visionaries out there. But at nine years into having run my own business and having enough mistakes and enough people failures, I was fairly self-aware at that point that I had that was an area of deficiency for me is that I definitely needed someone, we're a professional services business, so so much of what we do is dependent on our people. And so when I think about Integrator, being able to sort of integrate the vision of the business, so much of that has to do with people. And so that was one of the reasons that I reached out to Katie to begin with is she's got a really strong organizational management and people development background. she likes to say she collects people. She's a really incredible leader and manager, does so much to help people develop in their own individual career tracks, build teams and build teams that support companies at scale. So I don't think that I had to really vet it because that's who she is and that was her track record of success. And so that was one of the reasons that I was originally so eager to have the conversation with Katie because I knew that that was an area that it was a gap. And the former integrator, she was filling other gaps, but not that one. And so much of what I believe about being an entrepreneur and a business owner is that I've got this tremendous responsibility to create an amazing work environment and to be really thoughtful about the culture of the business. I'm a working mom. I have three young children. And whether it's for kids or for pets or for caring for parents or love one, whatever it is, like we've all got stuff. And so felt like it was really important for me to have a culture that I wanted to be a part of and that I was really proud of. And so I knew that having that people element was critical. And so it was more so that Katie had already demonstrated all of those things that made it the conversation, I think, in the outreach really logical and intentional.

So you mentioned culture. So let's jump in on that for a sec. So did you always feel like the emphasis on culture was so important or did that sort of evolve over time?

I think it evolved over time. I think that I grew up in Katie as well. I mean, we've grown up as women in financial services, which is primarily an all male culture. And I didn't grow up in the industry or in my career in great cultures. So no, I don't think when I started my own business that I even knew what culture was or what a good culture was. I just never really experienced it. An interesting part of my story is that I had a 50/50 partnership with my former business partner who I bought out of the business in 2018. One of the reasons that he and I parted ways is because it was a terrible culture, just terrible. I hated it. I had anxiety about so many things. I couldn't sleep. I was stressed. It was a toxic culture. We had terrible Glassdoor reviews. We had an open Our back door was bigger than our front door when it came to recruiting people. We just couldn't retain people. So I learned through a lot of pain about the importance of culture. And it is naturally aligned to me and who I am as a person. However, it just took me, it takes time to sort of grow the confidence in yourself to believe in who you are and to believe that it's okay to be who you are and that I could build something based on who I personally was. and what I believe in and what I think is right and the type of culture that I'm proud of. So it was an evolution.

Got it. Perfect story arc there. So you've been friends for a long time. How long?

20 years? Since 2002, 22 years.

So, but who's counting? So 22 years. So sometimes business and friendship doesn't mix very well. Katie, were you concerned about that at all? Of course. That we get into this and what's even into our friendship? How'd you think about it?

Assistant' is something new, but I think it was more a growth mindset approach to it, where I knew it would maybe look different. However, I felt like the relationship Meg and I have always had is one based on transparency and trust. We've always been very candid with each other. You know, she was at my bachelorette party. We were at each other's weddings, you know, 18 years ago, we've seen each other and become We are very different for who we are today than who we, and I actually am getting chills just thinking about it, than who we were then. And it's awesome.

Thank God. Yeah.

I think, thank God. We were very fun, though. Let me, let me, I will say.

That we were really fun.

We were very fun. But I do think we're much better humans. We're much less, you know, we're more selfless. We take more of a human approach. we're much more real with each other rather than when you're early on and everyone's, everything's perfect, everything's great. It's like, that's not reality. And then life hit Meg and I, and we're like, oh, now we need to sit in this messy middle. So of course, I was never hesitant about moving forward, but I was like, what is this gonna look like? And I do think Meg and I have had to find our way over the last three years and be very intentional. I think the first year, you know, we would catch ourselves, like, almost acting like friends. And it's rather than, like, nope, now we need to put on our business hat and we need to look at the business. And there's Conver, like, even a conversation we had this morning where we were just very honest with each other, but we have to hold each other accountable, too. And these are just things that I think make our friendship even more beautiful than it was 20 something years ago.

Cool. So you use the word or the phrase we're better humans. And I know that your focus is humanizing the profession of wealth advice. So is that related? So your personal evolution of kind of becoming better humans, is that kind of related to why that's a focus for the firm? Meg, talk about that.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that we have the privilege of having spent a good amount of time in this industry and having seen the impact that a really good financial advisor has on the lives of the clients that they serve. And Katie and I both each have our own individual stories of how we grew up and the role that money played in in the lives of our families and what that meant to us. And and really everybody has a money story that they bring forward with them to adulthood. And I don't think that either Katie or I would ever want to be a financial advisor because that's just not suited to our unique abilities. But we do believe very much in this industry that we've both grown up in and we're quite passionate about helping great financial advisors and advisory firms grow so that they can ultimately serve more people. That shows up in a lot of our volunteer work and in, you know, where we donate money from a philanthropy perspective. So it is, we think, and this sort of relates to also how we approach marketing. Like we think the best businesses are those that are really heart centered and human first in their approach, because the best way to develop meaningful connection with the people that you seek to serve is by So showing up authentically and vulnerably as yourself so that you can make a really meaningful connection. And so yes, like showing up as humans and thinking about how we can be better humans, that's clearly core to who we both are as women and moms and spouses and daughters and friends and sisters. And so it absolutely bleeds over into how we've built this business. And like I said, we just have We've seen it time and time again. It's really hard for a consumer to connect with a financial services business that uses a lot of jargon and performance measurements and tries to show up like credibility first instead of human first. That's why financial services can be viewed as somewhat exclusive because it feels like it's only for the ultra wealthy or the ultra affluent. You can't help me, you know? And so we take that responsibility seriously and it cuts across the culture of the business and the type of people that we want to surround ourselves with.

So Katie, was that part of what drew you to the business?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, over the course of my career, you know, and I'm very transparent with everyone and kind of have shared my struggle of my career journey because that's really, I like to put on my coaching focus on the people and bring out greatness. I always feel like that's like my number one job as a leader is to like find that one thing that's buried in someone and pull it out. and you know, during my career, really my son, Asher, he'll be 13 in a month, which I can't believe, by the way, that I'm going to help teenager. We're already there as a teenager attitude, but hey, I love him to death. So though was interesting is when I first became a mom, I tried so hard to separate the two. I honestly thought that becoming a parent was going to be career suicide. I thought I was as far as I would go on that career ladder and it was just done. And so when I became a mom, I tried to compartmentalize who I was as a parent and then the Katie that was showing up at work every day. And after probably a year and a half of stumbling and being exhausted, I realized like this isn't going to work for everyone. And so I just started to kind of lean in and it's, I mean, I still work on it today, but I feel like I've come a long way. I find that, you know, where we should be saying yes to our immediate family, you know, like my, my partner and my children where we're normally saying yes is work out here. you know, and you really need to flip the two. So I've been trying to be intentional over that and just. I found fine. Calm was very much that, that we lead with that. Like, who you are as a person is. Is more important to us than what you're gonna give Fical. Like, how are you gonna approach it? Who. What are you passionate about? Like, pulling that out? Like, are you a parent? Are you a dog parent? Are you. Do you have hobbies and passions outside of the workplace? Like. we want to look at the person and take a holistic approach because we feel like if people are passionate with what they're doing and they can show up as their true authentic self, the bottom line is going to benefit. And so it was very, very much aligned with that. Not only it was twofold, it was one from a personal standpoint is Megan Pike I'm going to embrace me for who I am and where I am on this like parent journey. And Second, are we going to be a culture that allows other to do the same? Because often you see leadership team may be one way, they say one thing, but then you get down to the rest of the team and they're like, that's not what actually is happening. And so I feel like we really created a culture of that just to really support people who they are and how they want to grow.

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Call with a board member right now. So Meg, you'd already started your EOS journey, obviously before Katie came on the scene. So you'd gone through the process of answering the, what we call the eight questions on the VTO, particularly core values, core focus, ten year target, your marketing strategy, your three year picture, So you had done that. So as Katie gets on, did that change? Did that morph at all? Did it evolve at all? And talk about how that structure helped you and Katie kind of communicate maybe to get some of the stuff out of your brain into a little bit more structured format that we could move forward with.

Yeah, it absolutely changed. I think the biggest, most immediate change was needing to have clarity around core values. When we started EOS with our first implementer, we created the core values as a leadership team. There were only three of us on the leadership team, including my former integrator. And so it was sort of a consensus process for creating core values. And so the core values weren't actually aligned to who I was. And so I think that was the first sort of immediate, because Katie and I are so aligned culturally and believe the same things about what's important, what priorities are, the type of business that we wanted to build, the type of environment that we wanted to build, core values. We had to take a look at those and sort of start from there. And then also the real focus on it's one thing to say that you want to have a great culture, but it has to be built and it has to be inherent to who you are as a leadership team and how you show up every day. And you have to be consistently looking at it over time and you have to have the right sort of framework and structure in place to be able to actually have the culture be the living sort of breathing representation of the business. And so I think a lot of the goals changed. I think a lot of the areas of focus, the rocks really did shift quickly once Katie joined to like, how do we get this culture to a place that we can be really proud of? How do we move from a place where our employee retention was very bad to a place where our employee retention is Now very good. We were spending a ton of money working with recruiters. We had a hard time getting people to come and work for us. And now with Katie having been here for three years, we haven't worked with a recruiter for two years. We are now an attraction brand. We have people emailing us and saying, Hey, when you have an opening, I'd like to join your company because of what I see. So I think in addition to the values, a lot of it was a focus was focused and evolved focus on people and culture.

Nice. I love that. So, Katie, for you, a lot of times the integrator role being the number two and kind of having to deal with a lot of the tough conversations and saying no and being more of the internal face probably than the external face, some people that really struggle with that. It's tough for them. So talk to me about how that shows up for you. Is that really tough for you or you just wired that way?

Yes and no. So there's certain parts of the role that are extremely tough for me. So just high level, I'm pretty self-aware. I've always figured out what, you know, from a high level standpoint, like what I want to be. And it has always been, I just want to be the highest number two, period. I have had no desire to carry the burden of being a number one. And, you know, working for a company for 13 years that was being built you know, so I joined the first year in. So it was basically a startup when I joined and seeing the burden that was carried on the shoulders of the number one, I said, no, thank you. That is not my zone of excellence. I come up with great ideas, but I am not the big idea person. That's not my area of expertise. What I love to do is witness greatness of coming up with the ideas and then me help implement that greatness. So like, I just naturally knew I'd always want to be a number two like that. It was like COO type role that so that was very easy for me. I just, I had no, you know, desire to be a number one so that I really didn't have an ego coming in of like, oh gosh, I'm going to have to take second seat. Like that was just something I didn't struggle with. However, what I do struggle with is I am very much a people pleaser, you know, based on my childhood background, who I am as a person, I want to be loved. I've gone through therapy. I've talked about it all. I know why I am this way, but it is still something that I want to do. So saying no to people and holding people accountable for things is something that is probably a daily challenge that I'm constantly working on. And while I'd love to say I figured it out, it's still something that I'm working on. I feel like I've come a long way, but I still got work to do there. So the saying no part is, you know, it's, it's interesting because there are certain things I have zero and make will laugh. Like, I have zero issues of saying, nope, that's not happening. But there's other things where I feel like if someone's gonna like me less or, like, it's gonna impact, like, a perception of me personally. That's where it's very hard for me to say no.

Sure. Yeah. Well, I love your self-awareness there. And it's hard to reconcile the two sometimes. Right. That. That actually saying the thing that's hard for someone to hear or that may make them not like us is actually the best thing for them, too. It's not only the best thing for the business, but it may be the best thing for them, too. So, Meg. was it surprising to you when you discovered that there was actually somebody else out there that wanted to be the highest number two, that wasn't like fighting to be the highest number one, but they had kind of a different target in mind? Sometimes that's really surprising for a visionary to find out. Was that for you?

I don't really believe in hierarchy, so I understand why people say visionary number one, integrator number two, but I don't necessarily agree that it's a number one, number two. I don't think you have either without the other. So I think that they're equally important. And I guess in that way, no surprises. I think that it has been wildly beneficial for me to have someone who so unconditionally supports me and sees me and sees the burden and sees the challenges and how lonely it can be as an entrepreneur and Katie just really is always recognizing and acknowledging a lot of the pain and a lot of the hardship and a lot of just the isolation that exists when you're a business owner. And I think that that's probably what was a little bit more unexpected. And obviously, Katie and I have known each other for over 20 years, and we're really good friends, and so we've always had that support mechanism as friends. But to sort of have the support mechanism between visionary and integrator has really elevated me. Like my ability to step into my power as an entrepreneur and to really benefit from being a business owner, which is benefiting from a lot of the sacrifice it's made over the years. Like that level of support and encouragement is I like immeasurable beyond words.

So let me grab onto something there. So when you think of think about the last three years, okay, so since Katie has come into the role, think about how your life was at that moment in time. And think about how your life is right now. What's the biggest difference for you personally?

Oh my gosh, there's like so many. I mean, like there's so many. I'm a, I think I'm a different, not that I'm a different person, but I think I'm living a better life. I sleep better, I'm healthier, I'm more confident, I'm less stressed. Things that the business don't affect me in the same way that, you know, it used to be such like personal attacks when things didn't go wrong. I felt like I was personally failing and, or that I was a bad person or that I didn't know what I was doing or whatever. And I think that having that level of support has really changed. When Katie came on board, we actually had to accelerate her coming on board a little bit because I was having my third child and it's hard for an entrepreneur to be able to take time off when you have things happen in life because you're wearing a lot of hats. And we had gotten to a better place in the business when I had my first son. I think I took four or five weeks off, which felt like huge. It felt like how could I possibly take another day off? And I remember speaking, I flew to San Francisco to speak at an event when my son was like four and a half weeks old. And I remember being on stage and being like, this is actually dangerous. Like, why am I here? Like I was lightheaded and, oh, hadn't recovered, you know, physically. And so when Katie started, one of the things that she was really intentional about is like, you're going to take a proper maternity leave because I've got you and I've got this business, which was. And she, like, there's no way you actually could have. Katie, I did it a month.

Yeah.

And you were, like, a month into the business, but it didn't matter because you did. And it was really just like having someone who could. just like step in and step up and say like, Hey, I don't really know all the things because I'm new here, but we're going to figure this out so that Meg can have this time. I mean, that's the most incredible gift that anyone could give you. So I think that, you know, to boil that all down, I think that I'm happier and I'm a better leader.

Yeah. What a cool message and cool feeling that I've got you. I love that. That's fantastic. Okay. So, Katie, in the pre-call, my producer, you said something that made her laugh. and she said, I had to ask you about it. And so you must tell me about the inner Karen.

Karen.

So this is part of my self-awareness journey, Mark.

So.

This is all the people-pleasing tendencies that I have. So going back to what I was sharing earlier is I had an epiphany probably about a year ago. It was actually at an EOS quarterly session. And I'm just, again, because I want to feel loved, I am a perfectionist at heart. I am a high achiever that anytime I feel that someone is questioning me, I feel like I'm an idiot. I'm stupid. I don't know what I'm talking about. Or I go on the defense. Like, I literally have a Meg knows that she sees it. she's called me out on it. But ever since I figured out and identified my inner Karen, I am identifying it myself. So Megan helped me on that journey of being self-aware that you literally have a physical response where everyone in the room knows what you're thinking. And so it was interesting. I was trying to figure out a way because I always try to go to a toolbox and create a tool of like, okay, well, what can I do about it? You know, I just don't want to sit in this and be like, well, that's who I am. This is what I'm going to be dealing with for the rest of my life. And so I just kind of thought about, like, I'm just gonna name her. And so I was like, Karen, it's Karen. So I know. And it's so funny now. It's like I have been able to physically separate myself from Katie and Karen that, like, we'll be in meetings and they see me and I'm like, oh, Karen. Karen's getting a little over here. Karen's getting a little uncomfortable. And for me, because I'm just. I'm someone that leads with humor. It's just how I process things, and it works for me. I know sometimes it probably makes people uncomfortable because they're like, how could you possibly be laughing at that? But it's just something that works for me, so everyone just needs to deal with it. But I have just found, ever since that a year ago when I identified the care, and I came back to the leadership team, and I just owned it. And I said, everybody, I am naming it. I am seeing when it's happening. I'm. Because I literally feel it. I get hot. I get, you know, just kind of, like, tense, anxious, whatever that looks like. And ever since then, it's just. I. I find humor in it, and I have just been mentally. And now it's been nice because I'm also seeing it at home, and I'm seeing. And I'm like, well, it's not me. That's Karen. you know, and it's just been able to just kind of separate the two. And of course, I need to, like, own Karen's Behavior. So I do come back and, like, all apologize, but it is just. It's made me help with my confidence, too, that this is just a reaction. It's not reality, you know, and Karen's crazy, so Karen can go over there and, you know, Katie can show up, but, like, when Karen pops up, I need to, so.

Love that. That's so powerful, naming the thing, making it visible. So have you gone so far, and I see this among some VI Duos, where they sort of have a secret code between them, a little communication thing, where when you start doing the thing, they have a sign or something that they put out that sort of secretly reminds you that, okay, it's happening maybe even before you see it.

Never even talked about it, but I've known Meg for so long. She just says this thing with her eyes where I'm like, oh, Karen.

Karen, there it is. There it is.

There's no code needed. It's all non-verbal.

You're doing it. You're doing it.

And it's so funny that no one else in the room would know. Like there's even times where, you know, Meg will be feeling one way and I'm just like looking at her, I'm like, yeah, we're just gonna solve for this.

Oh, that's cool. That's cool. So, okay, so tying it back to your friendship. So you've been friends for a long time. You do this. VI DUO thing, you're having great success, you're getting really good at it. How has this changed your friendship?

I think it's actually given us more opportunity, obviously more opportunities to spend time together. So I think that in a way it's created a stronger bond because we're both in, for years have been in sort of really intense roles and careers in our professional lives have been a big part of what we've done. And so that, that that is what we commit to in our daily lives between family and career. And we've been equally focused on both. And so because of that, when we're in separate places and separate businesses, that just doesn't give you as much time to be together. Because Katie and I really do both prioritize family and spend as much time as possible with family, which leaves less time to have friendships outside of work. So I think it's been additive because it's sort of like well, we didn't get to see each other that often before, and now we get to see each other every day. Like, that's pretty cool. And as I've, there's been movement. She used to be in Portland. I used to be in Washington, D.C. I was then in L.A. she was in Orange County. We're now finally both in Orange County. And so we've also had opportunities to get together as families more often than we had in the past. I just had the entire leadership team over to my house on Sunday, and we went for a walk with my kids into a park and had dinner outside with my family and ice cream and Katie was there and has seen my kids grow up. And I think that that's actually been strengthened because we just have the physical proximity and the daily connection to one another that we didn't necessarily have before.

So we've got lots of visionaries and integrators listening and they would, they're learning from all your stories, they're learning from your experiences already. But if you could boil it down to, hey, if somebody had told me at the beginning, this about being a visionary, or this about being an integrator, or this about making the relationship work. What's one nugget of wisdom that you wish someone had shared with you earlier that might help them?

I think it sort of goes back to what I said about how impactful Katie has been on my life. I think for me, it took me a long time in my career to recognize that my inherent strengths were strengths and that it was okay to double down on those strengths And it was also okay, therefore, to have weaknesses and to not be good at things and that I didn't have to be good at everything. And so I think for me as a visionary where I've really flourished and grown into the role is like, not only is it okay to be the visionary, it's required. Like the business needs someone who's constantly looking out to the horizon and thinking about what's next and having those big ideas that sometimes feel endless that, you know, that that's It's, it's, it's not expected, it's needed. And so I think that that recognition of like, yeah, it's good to be me. Like it's, I'm, me being me is what this business needs. And then having an integrator and, and Katie, who is someone who I just so inherently trust and admire and respect, but who really elevates me into the visionary role because she's so strong in the integrator role. It goes far beyond business impact. It's, it really has tremendous personal impact too. So that's what I would hope. for others, if you're feeling like, I'm, I know sometimes visionaries feel bad. It's like, gosh, I have these ideas and I don't want to take them to the team because they're just going to roll their eyes at me and they're just going to say, stop bringing me these ideas. And you can, that can sort of get in your head. So that would be my hope is that other visionaries can be like, yeah, like this is, this is amazing. This is what the business needs, but you can't really do that unless you're.

Fully supported by an integrator that you.

Have that level of trust and respect with. Very good. Love that. Katie, what about you? Yeah, that I was going to lead with, you need to have between the two, 100% trust and zero ego, like hands down. If you don't have that, and if there's ever a point in your relationship, because obviously not everyone is lucky enough to know someone for 20-something years and have them move into this integrator seat. But as soon as you can build rapport, credibility, and trust with one another, the better. and when it's not there and there's times, you know, where Meg and I, there may be a little bit messy middle, then sit in it and talk about it and then move forward. And sure, Karen comes out in those moments. But that's what makes it better. And it just only makes sure, you know, your relationship and this venture so much stronger. But without 100% trust and zero ego, it's not going to work.

I think that's the perfect point to wrap up on 100% trust and zero ego. Really, really cool. So excellent conversation today. Very, very interesting. Lots of lessons, lots of things people can learn from. So before I wrap it up here, if folks want to learn more about you or your business, what's the best place for them to find out and get in touch?

The best place to go is to our website, which is FICOMpartners.com, that's F-I-C-O-M-M partners.com, and if you go to the team page, you can find bios for both Katie and myself and our LinkedIn profiles are linked from our bio pages. If you want to reach out, we'd love to hear from you. on LinkedIn.

Super cool. Super cool. Well, my gratitude to both of you for taking some time to spend with us. And I know you've helped some of our listeners. So that's the whole idea here, right? Is how can we learn from each other so we get there faster and maybe with a little bit less pain? So I'm grateful to you for that. And same thing for our listeners. I'm grateful to you as well, taking your time to listen to our little, our little show here. And if you like it and if you think it's helpful, tell somebody about it. If you leave us a review or let somebody else know, that's how they find out and maybe we can help them as well. So great conversation with Meg and Katie and so now let's go to the Rocket Fuel Toolbox, anchor things back to the tools. So a couple things that popped up for me in this one. So the first one is really a comment that Meg made it actually around hierarchy and she says, you know, I really don't see it that way. I don't see it as a number one and number two. And that's one of the beautiful things about the accountability chart is it really isn't about hierarchy. It is about accountability. It is about having clear groupings of what needs to get done and specifically who's going to do it and specifically who they're going to be accountable to for those things. But it's not about levels and entitlement and titles and all that kind of stuff that so many companies get tripped up in, right? Because they've got an org chart and that's really all they've got on there is it's the associate director of blah, blah, blah, or the vice president of blah, blah, and right. And it's those kinds of things which people interpret in, I don't know, a dozen different ways because of the companies they've been at in their own experience. And so it's different than the dozen different ways that someone else interprets them because of the experiences that they've had. And so it gets all twisted up and confused. And so simplifying those things, and just being really clear that we're focused on what it is that we're responsible for taking care of and being great at, and then who it is we're accountable to for those things, and then communication flowing freely all across the accountability chart. So that's the accountability chart tool. The second one that jumped out pretty strongly in this episode was around core values. So Meg talked about how the first integrator wasn't really a culture fit, wasn't a core values fit, and then she further got into the way that they formed the core values initially, small sort of a consensus approach, and it really didn't reflect her core values. It wasn't strong enough with the way that she saw the world and the way that she wanted her culture in her company to be. And so that's really important that that voice is there and it's appropriately represented. And so as it came out, of course, she is strongly aligned with Katie. And so the two of them, that was one of the things they went to work on, was revisiting those and making sure that they accurately reflect the core values that exist in that leadership of this business. And then they look to draw more people to them that are like that and keep people away from them who are not like that. So that was a very important tool for them in their journey. And then finally, the last tool I want to point to is LMA. So leadership management and accountability. And Meg make the statement that she's a terrible manager. Now, is she really a terrible manager? She's probably managed lots of people along the way and she's probably had to learn to do it and probably been pretty good at it, but it's probably takes a lot of energy, right? It's not easy for her. It's not natural for her where it's much more natural for others. And, you know, typically the integrator is great at it. And they need to be the strong, strongest example, frankly, in the organization, certainly on the leadership team for what great LMA looks like. And then you look at Katie's comments around that, and she talks about how, look, just because I do it and I'm good at it doesn't mean that I like it. It's not fun to tell somebody something that they don't want to hear. And so she's working on that. She can easily say no to something. No, that's a bad idea. No, whatever. But she's still the personal part of the session that's still going on in her brain. And she's reconciling how telling something that they don't want to hear in the end is good for them because it's good for the company and it's what's good for the company generally creates more opportunity and it's better for us. We get more of what we want. by getting more from the business and creating additional opportunity there. So she's working through that and nobody wants to be a bad person, nobody wants to be disliked, but that integrator role has that superpower being able to step into that situation and do what needs to be done and have the conversation that needs to be had. And many of those are what really creates the accountability in the organization. So clear, expectations and consistent accountability top to bottom, side to side through that organization. Ultimately, that is what's driving your culture, specifically as those that accountability comes back on the GWC of the roles that people sit in and core values. So that's what I got for you in the toolbox today. So love it if you'd go to rockefelleruniversity.com if you haven't already, take the crystalizer assessment, see how you're wired. see if this is something that could help you in your business. Are you a visionary? Are you an integrator? Would that structure help you get more of what you want from your business? We got other tools for you there. Check those out and become a part of our visionary integrator community. So with all that, this is it for this episode and I will look forward to seeing you next time. Until then, go rocket.

Thank you for joining me today for another inspiring story.

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