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Today's episode was sponsored by Birthing of Giants.

What do you do with what you have? Like, what are these skill sets that you bring to the table? Like, what's in your hand? And like, where have you accumulated these skills over the time? And what are you gonna do with them in the future?

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another season of the Rocket Fuel Podcast, where visionary and integrator duos from entrepreneurial companies share a behind-the-scenes look at their relationship. These amazing leaders blend their unique skills to create Rocket Fuel. I'm your host, Mark C. Winters, co-author of Rocket Fuel and an expert EOS Implementer. Today, I'm thrilled to be talking with Jonathan Reynolds and Scott Seifeld of Titus Talent Strategies, a hiring and people development company. Their vision is centered around finding quality talent that's the right fit and makes a lasting impact on your business. Jonathan works as a CEO and visionary and hosts his own podcast, Talent Talks. Meanwhile, Scott acts as President and Integrator with his years of experience in entrepreneurship and startups. In this episode, Jonathan and Scott discuss the process of finding the right seats when it comes to the Visionary Integrator Partnership. We'll explore how each role allows the other to grow and cover blind spots in the business. We also highlight the challenges that come with the hiring process. We're kicking off the conversation with Scott, sharing the story of how he, as the founder, hire Jonathan into the team before joining EOS.

Here we go.

Yeah, there's a good story behind that. I had a previous firm, so I'm a CPA by background, had a previous firm that specializes in forensics auditing as well as accounting special projects. And I had a lot of people come to me and say, Hey, Scott, can you help me find a CFO? Can you help me find a controller, finance person, whatever? and I said, no, we're consultants. We're staying focused. We're not doing recruiting. And it just, it kept coming up. And I went to a Vistage meetings who were part of the Vistage, and they brought in a speaker and she said, you need to listen to your clients. They're telling you where they want you to go. So that was a moment when I thought, wow, I just walk, got hit over the head by a two by four, and I haven't been listening. And I said, you know what? I need to listen. I need to explore for this. The one thing that was really, I guess, important to me is I wanted to be different because I was tired of people always just slinging resumes towards me and not really having a quality, not really caring about what I'm looking for. Hey, maybe this is a fit. You know, it's like a deck of cards. And so I sat down, I really talked, thought about, talked to a lot of people about what should I look for in this person? And came up with a profile for Jonathan. And then I started sharing it with some people. And of all people, my executive assistant said, I know the guy. I know the person.

What were you calling the role? So at that point, what were you calling the role you were looking for?

He was a director of recruiting.

Gotcha.

Because at the time, we had a lot of internal needs. And I wanted to get a product that we could give to our clients. And so so that administrative assistant said, you know what? I've got the person. And I met Jonathan and it was it was a great meeting, almost too good to be true. I think we make it a long story short. We met four times. Jonathan said, I will meet you a fourth time. But you got to give me an offer. And I said, yep, let's meet for breakfast. And we did. And I guess the rest is history.

All right, so you jump in, Jonathan, you come on board as director of recruiting and things roll along. And at some point, the two of you realize, hey, what's going on here? Something, there's maybe a different combination of our talents that we could move into. So tell me about that. Tell me about how you discovered EOS, the visionary integrator. structure and how that sort of unfolded.

Yeah, it was amazing experience coming in, working with Scott as a founder, entrepreneur, visionary, and who built an organization, made it to 600 something on the Inc. 5,000 fastest growing companies list. It was impressive organization. And here I am to launch a recruiting division. And it took on a life of its own. I like Scott, he wanted something different. I remember knocking on the door of Milwaukee Tool, because we were Milwaukee at the time, both of us. And they said, Jonathan, we love your, you know, the energy, love what you're talking about, but we're not spending money on recruiting. This is 2010, nobody wants to spend money on recruiting in 2010. You know, there's like 12% unemployment rate or something, you know, it was, They're like, we get 500 applicants. And I said, yeah, but are they the right ones? And they said, no, not necessarily. And I'm like, well, where are the right ones? And they're like, they're probably working for these other great companies. And I said, exactly. There's nothing good in our database. Let me go find the right one. That's how we kind of launched. And it took on this very different approach. We said, we're not going to be like used car sales people saying, I'm going to sell you a car on the lot. There's going to be an empty lot and we're going to go and steal cars for you. It's kind of like that was this kind of different by design approach. And it took on a very different life of its own and arguably different than the rest of Scott's company. In finance and accounting and tax and forensics, then you put a bunch of wild headhunting recruiters in there who want to scream and ring bells and celebrate when they get the right hire for a client. It just didn't sort of jive. And so it was a, as we were taking on this life of its own and almost a different subculture. I remember sitting, talking with Scott at that point, saying, you know, what's the plan for the future? What's your, what's the exit? And so that was the opportunity when we get to just sort of flesh out, what could this look like? And should the recruiting division go with the rest of a, an exit and it just didn't make sense.

So how long did it take to hit that inflection point?

That was four years, right? That's when we started having those discussions.

So.

Scott, for you, was that more exciting or concerning that there's something different here than kind of with the rest of the family of business?

It was exciting. I think to add to that story, I discovered the Traction book through Mutual business friend. He was, I remember watching March Madness and he said, I said, Mike, you are so relaxed with your business and everything. You're very successful. What's your secret sauce? Is what I said to him. And he said, I don't know. Traction. And I said, what's traction? And so he said, It's a book. And so I got on the phone and ordered it on Amazon. and it looked at traction and said, wow, this is impressive, but it's quite a bit. And so that's how we first got introduced. And then several years later, all of a sudden, probably a couple of years later, right, Jonathan, a couple of years later, all of a sudden, your book came out, Mark, where it said rocket fuel, and we really gravitated towards that. So I was still in the CEO role through that time. and then realized, you know what? I'm in the wrong seat. We're in the wrong seat. And your book really helped bring that clarification for us, which was Game Changer.

So talk about how you waded into that conversation between the two of you. So you're reading this, did you both read it? Scott, did you read it first? How did that kind of come together?

Yeah, I think I took the lead, but I discovered it. I was very excited about it. And so we kind of did it together. My thought on this, I really said, Hey, Jonathan, take this assessment, take the crystallizer. I want to see how this fits. Because I took mine and I came out, I was a little bit in the middle, but much stronger on the integrator side. And that was, I kind of knew that, but I guess I really didn't. And then Jonathan took his and he was very high, very high visionary. And it was a moment where I went to him and said, I think we're in the wrong seats. I think we need to flip.

And then you want to- so Jonathan, you hear that and where does your brain go?

I was floored. Scott was my boss's boss and founder and he says, you know, you're the visionary, I'm the integrator. And I'm thinking, what is going on here? You know, like this is just wild. Number one, I love studying entrepreneurs and understanding what makes people tick and how founder founder-led companies function. And there's that wiring in me, but I'd never launched anything. And so here I am working with somebody who's being a, somebody I look up to as a mentor, somebody who's run and built and sold and like, like many of the Visionary entrepreneurs who run on the US. And I'm looking at Scott, I mean, the humility first to just say for him to say that, I think it's huge because I've not met many people who would do that. This is my company I started, you know, like, it's like, no, no, it wasn't about value. It was about recognition of roles, unique abilities, superpower, whatever it is. And it wasn't that Scott wasn't visionary. He wasn't Scott wasn't any of those things. he would just say, go and do that thing that you do really well, and I'll do the thing that I do really, really well, and let's do something amazing together. And that when we started talking about carving out this recruiting division and launching what's now called Titus Talent Strategies, a completely separate company, the only way I could see it working is that visionary integrated where I'm like, well, I couldn't do it without you. There was a period of separation, but yeah, I knew that there was no way that I, it wouldn't have become what it was without Scott. But also a recognition, I don't think it would have become what it was without me. It was that joining of combination. It works well.

So how long did it take to really transition from where you started? Once you kind of had this epiphany and you're like, okay, and Scott, you're like, hey, I think we need to kind of flip seats here. How long did it take to move into that truly and begin to operate that way as Titus?

Yeah, I mean, we started working on it right away. It felt like it was right away. I'm sure there were awkward moments along the way about, hey, you need to, like, let's define the roles, right? What are the top five? What are the metrics? Those type of things. It took us a little bit of time to do that. And one of the things that I remember that really kind of stuck out is when you're in that moment of really launching something, you have to be able to try and fail. And so one of the things in the Rocket Fuel book was the R&D. That's one of the top five things that you recommended for the visionary. and so I think I just saw that as Jonathan's God-given talent. And so we needed a, you know, okay, let's, that's one of his sayings is trial and error. And if we fall, we fall fast and adjust.

No, we've never failed. I've never fallen. Ridiculous. I don't know where that even comes from. I take that. Okay, so Jonathan, it's not perfect. Yeah.

So Jonathan, he clearly sees you as a test pilot.

Come on, God. the other thing is not. Right?

No. So you step into that role, right? And as you're defining, you talked about defining the seats on the accountability chart. And you've got some models there to kind of look at and pull from. Were there any areas where you're kind of like, no, no, no, actually that one normally falls over here, but I feel like it belongs in this seat for us. Was there anything like that that you had to kind of work through or did it all kind of fall into place pretty straightforward?

Nothing's coming to mind right now of how we functioned in that. I think they were just, I think probably one of the parts, I think there's Scott is phenomenal when it comes to some of being a CPA, he sits in the finance seat and there's, which has been an amazing gift, great relationships with our banking, governance, things like that. That's fantastic. There's this moment where Jonathan says something that's a little bit out there, a bit wild, you know, we're going to go do this, you know, and the company like, yeah, you get a whole bunch of, like half the people start smiling, like, yeah, let's do it. And then the other half live at Scott, like, Is this for real? And is this gonna work? And if Scott gives the nod, then he's got, okay, yeah, Scott's on board. It must be okay. It's not Jonathan being crazy. So I think those are things where we just, at the beginning, just kind of figuring out the footing on it.

So I understand, Scott, in the pre-call, you mentioned that Jonathan was basically a tornado.

Pretty cool.

Yeah. and, and you, well, you were gone, so. And, and, and you, you come along and kind of, you know, sweep up behind. Is that, is that a fair visual of what happens when he starts talking out loud or thinking out loud?

Usually it's, it's a good tornado. It's, it's a tornado causing, you know, good things to happen. There was definitely some of the things that, that I would say. Why, Jonathan, I would have to interpret some things because Jonathan moves really fast, which is a gift. and it's awesome and I love it. I love moving fast, but there's times when it's like, well, where did Jonathan go on? And I, you know, I'd have to fill in some of those blanks. But there's also times, admittedly, where Jonathan's like, come on, come on, catch up, Scott. Let's, you know, let's be, it's time for us to run right now. And I'm, oh, yeah, you're right. So then I gotta, you know, I gotta pick up my pace and it's.

It'S kind of a good, good counterbalance to each other. Yeah, I think I'll just add to that. Some of the things partly because of my wiring is I didn't come into this like, how do we make as much money as we can? I want to make a big impact. And so significance and impact, this big sort of life kind of stamp on me. And so at the end of my days, I want to know, I really, really made this big significant impact, which when that drives you versus financial stability or operation or Financial stability and stewardship so that you can keep all of the teams, you know, to let people go. If that's driving you, you can make some stupid decisions out of, under the name of significance and impact, like, let's do this thing. And it's kind of like, how's that going to be funded and how's that going to operationally work and how's that going to be financially viable? And so there are times where that those two, not just the gas and the brakes, it's just wisdom. Just going, okay, great. How are you gonna fund that? And I'm like, you know, and I know there's sometimes where we kind of hit these roadblocks and I'm like, just take it out of my paycheck, you know? And then Scott's like, okay, now you're getting stupid. You know, it's driving you way too much. Oh, okay. All right. But I want to do it. I just wanted, you know. And so I think that sort of the Visionary and the greater combo, having somebody who's covering these blind spots. Like Scott's not wired in the same way. You know, he wants to make an impact for sure. Yeah, he wants his life to count. Yes, absolutely. He wants to be a good steward. Absolutely. But he's not letting, he knows that.

There'S a long journey ahead and we need to budget well. And so it's just a great combo. So when you think about these differences and, you know, you mentioned pace, what do you do to stay in sync?

What do you do to stay on the same page? What do you do to keep from getting, as we say, the circles completely disconnected? Well, you've helped with this actually, Mark, because I know you weren't trying to dig for a plug on the Rocket Fuel University, Scott's in the forum. Masterclass was really helpful for me and we both got together afterwards and were like, Hey, just exchanging notes. And we'd be doing these every single week for the last 10 years, same page meetings that last 90 minutes every single week. And it was like, it was great. We're doing them. And you're like, no, let's say just like, what? Once a month, half a day, essentially two to four hours. I'm like, oh, we don't do that. And so straight away, we had a quick adjustment and it was awesome. So we've been doing that since then, other than me just getting back from a sabbatical. But it was way better. One of the biggest things was the true same page. It takes time to get through some of the checklist stuff that needs to be talked about, but then you get into this free space of ideas, visionary things. What does the future look like? What is, are we still on track for this? And are there any other wild ideas that I'm suddenly musing on and that have been going on for months? And I'm like, yeah, we need to do something about this. It just gave space for that. Otherwise, we're like, are we, are we check boxed everything? Yes, we've check boxed everything. Okay. But it didn't leave enough time to talk about real things that get me going.

So, Scott, what about for you? Was that a, what was the big difference you noticed when you sort of changed that model of how you were doing the same page meeting?

Yeah, I think it was a breakthrough because I think we were doing it for about an hour to an hour and a half, and Jonathan was just warming up and during those times. And so what I, one of the big things that, that I took away from that is he was able to flush out Just as he mentioned, a lot of his thoughts and ideas. And I realize that it helps to put all of those ideas down as on paper and then start to kind of, okay, which ones do you want to... Like, which ones do you think are the best ones we should stop? You can't work on all five or 10 ideas. So how do we prioritize what kind of impact is this going to have on the organization? Good, bad, good and bad. And those meetings have been, I think, a lot more rich for us from a strategy standpoint versus just the day-to-day.

Where do you have them?

We actually, so Jonathan lives in Illinois. I live in Wisconsin. And we meet halfway in Lake Geneva.

So what kind of a spot do you go to at Lake Geneva for these meetings?

It's a restaurant. Sit there, long breakfast all the way into lunch. So, yeah.

Very cool.

And then Scott's a snowbird as well, so he spends half his life down in Florida. So in the off sides of the year, then we'll just, we're often traveling or speaking at things or events, so we'll just try and find time to do that and schedule it around.

We try to connect as much as possible in person. That makes a big difference. But when we can't, because of all the things Jonathan just mentioned, we'll get on Zoom and do the best we can.

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So set a little context for the listeners in terms of the size of the firm right now. So how many employees do you have?

I don't know. I've been away. 160. 160. 160. Is that roughly?

Does that sound about right, Scott?

Yeah, that's right.

Okay, so let's go to this. So you've been away, Jonathan, on sabbatical. What's it like for you to be able to do that and know that everything is under control?

Right before I left, I went to my, I'm part of Strategic Coach, and I was in the group there, and I'd only people believe that I was about to take a whole month.

Off.

But it's something that Scott and I set in our sort of partnership Manifesto at the very beginning when we started the company in 2015, was every five years, each of the partners take a month to completely disconnect for a couple of reasons. One is get refreshed, get re-envisioned, Etc. To not work on the business, you're not to check in, we're going to disconnect everything and come also to prove that, you know, you can develop the people around you to do the work that you were doing, and it's great to have that principle in there that everything's not hinging on you and come back refreshed and ready to go. We're going to celebrate you while you're gone and can to cover you too. So in the middle of there, COVID happened and so it was kind of like, ah, do we still do this? So it was a delayed a little bit. So we're playing catch up. Scott took his last year and finally took mine this year. Technically, I get another one next year. I've not told Scott that because I waited four years to do mine. So really, I should have another one. But yeah, and so the strategic growth group didn't believe that. I was like, they can't take a month off and not check in. And I said, it'll be a test if we've done this thing well. And I don't know, today's my first day back, so I've not really had, this is the first time seeing Scott in over, he was gone a week before I left, so it's been five plus weeks. But yeah, I made a mental discipline and it was hard at the beginning. I'm not going to even ponder and think about this stuff. I'm really going to have some self control when it comes to the business. I was focusing on some other areas in my life, relationships, purpose, health and things that I really wanted to work on because I really love doing what I do in the business. And so it takes a lot of my dreaming and my ideation and visionary kind of stuff going on that creative juices are in that space and the other stuff gets neglected. So that's what I wanted to focus on intensely for the month. But it was awesome. And the first week was tough, but after that, I'm like, okay, I got this. And I got this. I'm not going to think about that. And I trust Scott, and I trust this amazing leadership team.

So, Scott, let's hear the other side of the experience. So, one, what does it feel like to be able to have a key member of the team, you know, you're the visionary out of the, out of the, out of the mix for a month, and then what's it like back at the ranch to kind of hold things together and what are the things that are difficult or easy and kind of how that process goes through the month. It took him a while to kind of get in gear and really embrace the discipline of not thinking about the business and not doing all that. So what's the experience look like on the home side?

Yeah, I would say first the team was really excited for Jonathan to spend that time and with his family and get to have that life experience. So they really rallied around it and they were really saying, Hey, let's give this as a gift. This is something that Jonathan has really earned and he's very excited about. And so the leadership team was very supportive and let's do whatever we need to do to support Jonathan being away. From a back at the ranch perspective, we knocked off a lot of processes and process documentation because there wasn't a whole lot of new ideas coming in. It got towards the end of the month and I felt good, but I missed the ideas and realized that there is that. I love the Walt and Roy Disney analogy. They needed each other. And so, you know, there was two sides of that coin where, yeah, we got a lot of great stuff done and pushed over the goal line. But then again, we were missing some of the energy, some of the Jonathan's phenomenal with people stuff. and just communications on our huddle and being a remote or mobile company, that's really important. So we had people step in and they did great at our, we have a weekly huddles every Friday. They did an amazing job, but we're glad to have Jonathan back because he brings a whole huge energy to that and people just really gravitate towards him.

I love that there's two things that come to mind the way you described that. So one is sort of this, the cycle of focusing on production, versus focusing on building production capacity, right? And we kind of move back and forth between those. And the other one's a little bit of longing makes the heart grow fonder, right? So when absent the energy that Jonathan brings day to day, you miss that, you know, me some Jonathan back. So that's very cool. All right, so a couple of other things I want to talk to you about of your business and specifically. So you talk about the concept of the head, the heart, and the briefcase. explain that to me.

I think just recognizing there's a heck of a lot more to people when it comes to hiring, onboarding, engagement, development. Like when people live at somebody's whole career, how long they're with you as an organization, there's so much more to them than their resume, CV or whatever. And so many of the algorithms that are out there with job boards and job postings, you can like write meticulously, you get your job posting perfectly right, the job description perfectly right, and it matches you with somebody's resume. And it's like, it's a 90% match. And you get so kind of caught up on this is they're almost perfect, you know? All right, but that's a piece of paper that is not a person. And then you bring them in, and you're like, yeah, I feel like they kind of duped us. Like, what? You know, you got so excited about the resume and the job description perfect match. The you thought it was going to be the easiest onboarding because they've done the job for the last five to seven years. And you're just like, what are you doing? Like, it's a real person, not a piece of paper. So what goes into this makeup of a real person? Well, hopes and dreams and history and traumas and past toxic bosses. I put in quotes because it's kind of like, you mean accountability, right? That was your toxic work environment. They held you accountable. Sorry, speaking to certain generations. But it's this dynamic of they got a whole bunch of baggage, everybody brings it, and hopes and dreams and aspirations. And so let's try to figure all of those things out. So a simple way of the head, their behavioral wiring and cognitive processing. Intrinsicly, if I shouted the word fire in a movie theater, and then you're not supposed to do that unless it's true, but everybody's going to behave differently. Some people are going to start running for the door. Some people are going to try to assess who needs help to get to the door. Some people are going to figure out, How are we going to get 300 people through the door? Everyone's going to calculate it differently and behave differently. And so that's just how they're wired. And so if I can understand what do I need before to get this job done and then figure out what is needed in this thing, let's say we talk about the head and then how they process information. So cognitive and behavioral processing, that's the head. The heart is all about value alignment or core value fit, as you might say. But I just think value alignment. What do they bring to the table? Why do they make the decisions they make? And how does that process? And what are their motivations for the future, not just past, but also future? What are they hoping? These values, I talked about significance and impact as a worldview I have. Well, that's going to affect how I do my job. Versus just pure, I want to do it accurately and please my boss. I've just never thought that way in my life. Probably why I'm in the role I'm in. I'm like, okay, I want to make an impact. But that whole heart wiring, like, affects the way I do what I do. And then I wish I could change this, but people won't let me because we wrote a book about this and it's all about the head heart briefcase. Nobody carries around the briefcase. I would love to call it hands because it's more anatomical, but head heart hands. But it's really, what do you do with what you have? Like, what are these skill sets that you bring to the table? Like, what's in your hand? And where have you accumulated these skills over time? And what are you going to do with them in the future? So I say resume, kind of like the whole sort of slap down on your resume, or a briefcase, like what is in there? What have you done in the past that would be useful to us in the future? And if somebody's done it for the same thing for the last five to seven years, it's unlikely they're going to be that inspired to go and redo it for the next five to seven years. So yeah, so head heart briefcase. that's what that all is.

And so that's a right person in your book, right? And so, you know, we talk about GWC and we talk about core values, both sides of that equation. And so you told a story about one of the first clients that you talked to there in Milwaukee. And so they're flush with applicants, but not the right applicants. So talk about the value and the difference that a company will experience having just a warm body in the seat. versus having somebody that truly is a right person in the right.

Well, if you hire a resume, which is usually what people go, where did that resume? 45 days in, they're like, where's that piece of paper that I saw and got in the interview process? You'll end up firing a person because there's so much more to people than the resume, you know? So it's just like, have a process to, first of all, Benchmark what you want to do. Like, you don't decide, you don't. You don't do a household project without a design. Well, I have in the past. It's not a good idea. Don't do that. What do you want the outcome to be? So write your job description, not as a list of duties, but what outcomes do you want? How would you know if this person was successful? What are you looking for? So look at the future state of how you want your business to be. And the same as your VTOs, where do you want a company to be in three years time on the three-year picture? What would that look like? if I was to hire a mark, I just saw somebody's marketing director job description today, and it was a list of duties. And I'm like, okay, but what do you want the impact on the business to be by hiring this person? How would you know if they are successful? I'm like, oh, that's a different way of looking at it. But that's where the breakdown is. You're matching job descriptions and resumes, but you're not really looking at defining what the future looks like. And that's inspiring to the right person as well. So, Where do you want the outcome to be? And what do you want them to do, achieve or accomplish to be considered successful? So start with the end in mind.

So do you have a way to sort of simplify for folks the value delta? And I know it's different for every situation, every seat, every person, right? But when you think about the general value delta between, okay, just having somebody in there that's just doing the job versus truly having the right person in the right seat, what kind of lift, what kind of value lift do you think that brings?

I spoke to a founder visionary just before my sabbatical and he said, I was talking about like, what are A-players? Let's just say baseline, it's them doing 100%. If they get 100% of what you hired them to do, we'll just call them an A-player. We're not even saying above and beyond. We're just saying, I paid them... Let's just say simple math. I paid them $100,000 to do 100% of this. Here are the three to five things. Quantifiably, they did them all. Wow, that was awesome. That's an A player. And he goes, based on that, I probably have 25 to 30% of my employees would be in that category. And I said, okay, what would the impact be then if you were to define all of the roles? And he goes, I don't even know how to define the roles. And I said, well, we can help you define every single seat by quantifiable output and performance that equals 100% of the compensation in your budget. and we'll get you there, and then we'll work out how to manage them up or out or replace. And it was like, oh my gosh. And I said, what would that do to the future of your business? And he goes, I don't know, 10x. And I mean, I don't even know how to calculate. I don't know how to calculate either, but let's do this over the next 36 months and let's fix this thing and let's go. So we're in the business of journeying with companies as a talent strategy company, not a recruitment company, because it's a lot more than just the bodies or hiring. You can do a great job of hiring. It's like, I don't know, like a dating app, I guess. The dating app didn't work. I'm like, maybe it was you. It's not just the app. It's not just about the match. It's about the relationship afterwards, the onboarding, the integration, and date nights, and all this kind of stuff that goes into the success of the relationship. Same with hiring. Some people go, We do a bad job of hiring. Maybe it's not just the process of hiring is actually training managers to be better managers. and valuing and bringing people accountable and strengths and things like that. So I think there's a lot going into hiring and hiring often gets the blame. And I'm not saying hiring shouldn't be blamed or talent acquisition shouldn't be blamed. I'm saying it's about career journey and your success of your business, a whole lot more to hiring.

There's another X factor is your culture. So you bring in a top performer that raises your culture, which you're existing people perform better. You've got a new running horse, so to speak, and it really lifts the whole organization. So, you know, bad hires oftentimes, there's a lot of studies out there, but it could be as much as four times the cost you lose, but then there's also four times the gain. And that's where one versus the other, that's kind of the 10x that, that people often talk about is the worst case scenario versus the best case scenario.

Yeah, it's a big number. And what I see again and again and what I hear in both of your explanations is, like it or not, you're in the people business.

Yeah.

When I say you, I'm talking to every other business that's out there. Almost, right? It's 99.5% of the businesses out there. They're a people business, whether they like it or not. And so getting clear on that and how much doing that well, can move the needle, it's a long lever and can make a huge difference. So Scott, you touched on culture and how the people obviously impact the culture, every single one of them does. Of course, what our intent, our vision for that, that has a huge impact on it as well and how we hold people accountable. So I think about, you know, I know fun is important in your culture that you have at your organization, but I also know that accountability and healthy conflict are important as well. So I'm curious about between the two of you, what does healthy conflict look like? So talk to me about a time when you're not seeing it the same and how does that play out?

I could talk to that. One thing that comes to my mind is, you know, we were coming out of the pandemic and we were really growing. Jonathan saw that the spike, being a visionary, he saw that coming up before, I think, before many others or most others. and said, Hey, we need to get ready. We're going to really, we're going to rebound here and really like, let's go. And I was, you know, being the CPA and, you know, I was being a little more of the conservative. And so I was bringing them back. And so we were having this back and forth. And what we ended up doing is kind of compromising and one of the things, and Jonathan knows this, but I'll give him like a little, well, I bet you can't do this. Well, do that to a visionary. And if they take it seriously, they're going to blow it out of the water, which he did. And so that was an opportunity where he was saying, okay, Scott, speed up. And he was right. I mean, we saw some really tremendous growth post pandemic. But then there's also the time when you need to see when you're cresting or, you know, when the economy is cresting and things, and that's where, you know, I kind of saw that come in. And, and so I said, oh, there's some economists are putting some dangerous signs out there. So I had to slow Jonathan down. And so he's like, no, no, I want to keep growing. We're going to double. And I said, yeah, we're going to double. But now's probably not the time for us to do that. We have to pump the brakes right now. And I think those are healthy conversations to have because neither one of us were right. And it just, you know, when you look back at, when you can look back, it's always helpful. But I, I would say that's where those healthy conversations that we would have, where one, we would encourage each other, but then we also had the humility to not always have to be right. Like, well, maybe, maybe that other person has, has a valid concern here, and so. when we were coming back down and saying, hey, Jonathan, pump the brakes, he had the humility to say, okay, what are you seeing that I'm not?

So, Jonathan, talk about that. How does it feel to you to be told no?

It depends who it is.

Well, okay, so in this example, so Scott, there's something you're on fire about, you want to do it, you want to go make it happen, and your integrators in this case, Scott says, you know what? It's not, not now. Or, or maybe, you know, it's a, that's a stupid idea or whatever. I'm sure he doesn't say that.

But, yeah, totally. Yeah. It's funny. Like we talked about, I've been, Scott and I had been, had zero communication for five weeks, maybe a little bit more. And so I got my, you know, Scott gave me a week by week summary of everything that happened while I was gone. He just kept a tracker on it. Any major things that I need to be aware of and any decisions that were made, just so I can be sort of up to why. And it was just a written report. It was great to arrive back to today. And based on some of those things, after when we hang up here, we have a one-on-one, we're going to reconnect and go through some of those. And some of those are going to require some tough conversations. Both of them. He's going to tell me some tough things and I'm going to come back, well, what about this one? And some of the lenses, I have to ask myself, why do I feel strongly about this? That's just, I am like, why does that would that thing bother me? What is it about this? And usually it comes down to how we spend money. Those are things because it's that lens. Yeah, but this is really, the people need this. Our leadership team needs this. Okay, and Scott's got his, well, here's what the next six months look like. Here's what the economists say. Here's what this is going. And I don't like that stuff. I don't like reality. I like living in the dreamy, exciting, it's going to be great. Just trust. But I know that I can't go trust me. It's not really about trusting me against what's going on in the world. And so then I have to ask, I've learned and I was like, even today as I read through his report, I'm like, okay, why is that bothering? Why is no? Because I can tell there's a no here. I don't get to do this thing that I want to do. Why is that bothering me? And really kind of peeling that thing back, is it ego? Is it significance? Is it I want people to like me. I want people to feel like, I'm like, what is that? And if I can figure out why, and there are times where I'm like, no, I just believe. I really believe this is the right thing to do. We have a conversation around that. And Scott's like, there are plenty of times Scott's been like, Hey, I trust you if that's what you really believe. And it doesn't mean he's going to be like, well, I told you so if it doesn't go well. It doesn't always go well just because I believe something. there are a few things I've gone out like on a limb, I believe this thing is the right thing to do, like this strategic investment we're going to make and it just doesn't go as well as I thought. And I don't feel like shame or anything like that. I'm like, well, that's part of putting your neck out on something, having some belief, having some guts. But I think asking the question, why do I care so much about this? And if it's ego, that's where I'm like, I gotta just be, I gotta humble myself and trust wisdom in this one.

And one of the things that I learned, and it really came through the R&D, going back to that R&D, is it's always hard to say no. I shouldn't say it's hard to say no to an integrator, but it's hard for or to a visionary. It's hard for the visionary to hear that. And if they believe strongly in it, if I know Jonathan is strong, how can we test this? Right? Not put it in a full production where all 160 of our employees are doing this. How do we beta test this to see if he's right? Because he is right. He's got some phenomenal ideas. But part of my job is I need to protect the organization from some of the whiplash, I call it, some of the good and bad. So a little nugget that I had to learn over time was, Give Jonathan his R&D to test if he feels strongly about it, how do we do that in a safe setting in a way that won't upset the entire organization who thinks everything is fine. We don't need to change anything.

Like that. Like that. Okay, so one other area I want to explore with you before I let you go here is talk to me about how your partnership with EOS has really helped your clients and your community.

Well, it's been an absolute privilege. We self-implement implemented originally. Then we, okay, we need to hire an implementer. So we hired an implementer to help us on our journey. And then we say we self-graduated we got this now. Thank you very much. And then we brought another implementer in a year ago, and that's been great.

So.

But then serving the implementer Community has been awesome and just gaining just their trust. And it's a vulnerable thing when you refer or introduce somebody to clients and knowing full well that the work that we do is all around people, which is not a science. It's not perfect. So it can go, it can not go great always, you know, when we're dealing with people. So that's a risky thing. But we just feel so privileged that the implementer and the EOS implementer Community have been raving fans and so kind to entrust their clients to us. So I really appreciate that. It's been a big part of our growth. EOS is a huge ecosystem has been fantastic from a not all of our clients run on EOS. Actually, quite a lot of our clients don't. I don't know how many, somewhere 1500 to 2000 clients across the country, nowhere near a majority work run on EOS. But it's been great having a language that people get really quickly, those who are running on EOS, and then also helping, I think the framework of EOS has been really helpful for our clients who do not run on EOS yet. to understand so many things like GWC and just people analyzer and the accountability chart, really understanding those things, which are great three people components that are helpful for them to frame an understanding of how working with us on a three-year journey. So that's how I would respond. Scott probably got a lot more to add on that.

So let me dig in on one piece of that. So, I mean, I know you've been really good, really strategic partners with EOS for a while now. And so one of the versions of that is that you show up at these events, right? So like the EOS conference and, you know, being involved in the different programs that we have for visionaries and integrators. And so when you're at one of these events and there's all these other people there from these companies that are running on EOS, what's something that you see? What do you take away from that? Not just as a participant, really not as a participant. That's what I'm curious about. So just almost as a, adjacent participant and observer and just kind of watching what's going on there. I'm curious what you see.

I would answer that with community. US has an unbelievable community, which a lot of organizations, similar organizations don't have, in my opinion. And the community has taken on that help first mentality, which is really what's in Jonathan and myself and Titus, we resonate really well with that help first. And so when you go to those events, whether it's a conference or one of the IMF or Visionary, you just, you get this sense of, okay, if you need help, you can ask for it. There are no dumb questions. And just, there's a great culture there. that is really caring, I would say caring about helping first. And I wish I would have discovered this earlier in my career because being an entrepreneur is very lonely. And so having that community to reach out to is so impactful.

Love that. Love that. Thanks for sharing that. And really thanks to both of you for spending time with us here today. Our listeners, as you know, visionaries and integrators and others that are trying to figure out what they are or are interested in visionaries and integrators. They may want to find out more about your business or either one of you. What's the best way for them to reach out to find out more?

Titus talent.com is a website. All of our details are there. Any social media channels as well. You could find us on podcast, titus talent, YouTube, all of those.

Very cool. So, Scott, Jonathan, I'm super grateful for you taking time out of your busy schedule to spend with us here today. And I know that you've been helpful to our, to our listeners. So, you know, this whole pain is about, look, how can we learn from each other so we don't have to make the same mistakes on our own? And if we can listen to each other's experiences, there's nuggets in there that can help us not have to step in that same pothole, maybe get there a little bit faster with a little bit less pain. And so that's what it's all about. I know that our listeners have been helped by your time here today. Thanks to our listeners. Your time is super valuable as well. And so by taking the time to listen, we're grateful for that. and if you like what you're hearing, if you like our little podcast, tell somebody. Let them know, leave us a review. That's how others find out about us, and maybe we can help them get there a little bit too. So great conversation there with Jonathan and Scott. So let's go to the Rocket Fuel Toolbox. And so there's a couple of things that jumped out for me out of this episode as it relates to Rocket Fuel Tools. The first one was the Crystallizer. so the, the crystallizer assessment for them was really, really powerful. They read the book, Rocket Fuel. They went and took it, and lo and behold, they saw that their numbers actually aligned opposite of the current seats that they were sitting in. And so they talked about how they, they waded into that conversation about swapping seats, flipping the roles, and then defining the specific roles that were going to be appropriate for them in the Visionary and the integrator seed, using that as a guide. So that goes back to the you know, the three-piece puzzle, really the old two-piece puzzle of how the visionary and the integrator fit together. So that crystallizer, a tool, if you haven't used it already, to get that clarity for where your energy is going to serve you and your company the best, your business the best. Second tool that really jumped off the page for me here with these two was the same page meeting. And so what happened for Jonathan was he goes to the visionary master class. We talk about same page meeting. and he hears that the way it's really prescribed as this longer, deeper meeting once a month is different from the pattern that they've been on, which is more of a weekly 90-minute one-on-one touch point sync up. And the difference in having that longer time period that gives you the space to get into those deeper issues, super powerful. So many people, the first time we introduced the same page discipline, they're like, ah, but yeah, we, we see each other every day. Our offices are right next door to each other. We see each other in the hall. You know, we probably see each other 15 times a day, and we talk every time. It's a different level of conversation when you're just kind of hitting the Superficial stuff versus what you get into when you have a few hours to spend. And you can kind of knock off that Superficial stuff and, yeah, but there's something left. Yeah, but there's something left. And you get into these deep issues that are super meaningful, super impactful. They're super meaty. and that's where the magic happens. So again, that's why you hear them talk about that simple, simple shift was really a breakthrough in their relationship. So that's it for the toolbox today. Please go to rocketfueluniversity.com, take that crystallizer assessment, learn more about yourself and whether this structure is going to help you get where you want to go, learn more about the other tools that we have available for you there, and really become a part of our visionary and integrator. communities. Hope to see you there. And until next time, go rocket.

Thanks so much for joining me today. I really hope you were inspired by our guests. If you're interested to discover how your current visionary integrator relationship compares to the relationship you'd like, I invite you to go visit rocketfueluniversity.com and take our free crystallizer assessment. You'll get both your visionary and integrator indicator scores, and that's going to help you figure out your next step. Whether you're a visionary or an integrator, Rocket Fuel University was created to help.

You master your craft.

And get more out of your business. If you haven't already, join now to access resources like educational videos, interactive community forums, and monthly IDS sessions, all for free. Go to RocketFuelUniversity.com to get started.