Abby Nichols: The NAZ Elite Pro Proves Not All Pro Runners are Type A!

I would like to lead off with the announcement that we have a name change. We've gone from— with the, uh, the counsel of Ruby Wiles, who does our social media, um, and is coaching residents at our second house, um, we have changed the name of this program from Live from DreamRun Camp. Yeah, you're the first.

Wow.

To DreamRun Camp live. And we're also, also on Ruby's Council, we are a podcast. Now I understand, you know, I'm very old. I don't know. I don't know how, you know, TikTok— I don't know TikTok. But my understanding is that people don't watch videos or they would rather watch— listen to a podcast. Especially if they're runners and they're out running and they can just hear your conversation with me, Abby Nichols.

Yeah.

And, you know, not have to like focus on, I don't know, take 45 minutes out of your day just to do this. We are a podcast now. So Spotify, perhaps also elsewhere soon. And without further ado, welcome Abby Nichols.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Right on. You excited for lasagna?

I am.

Yeah?

I love lasagna. Italian before workout day.

Yeah, it didn't seem like you really wanted to come until I mentioned the lasagna.

I mean, I like food, so I'll come for food.

Right on. And hopefully a delicious conversation as well. So you are a professional runner. You are with the local Hoka Northern Arizona elite team.

Yeah.

Yeah. Dream job?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I actually, I was just talking to her about being a vet. That was my dream job when I was little.

Oh really?

Yeah, it was. But then when I was running in college, I just thought, oh, that'd be really cool to keep running Pro and everything. So, huh, lucky to have this job for sure. Right on.

Uh, well, is it too late to become a veterinarian?

Yeah, I don't see that in my future.

I mean, you majored in, uh, so you started off at Ohio State, right?

Yeah.

Um, and you were majoring in, uh, like speech and hearing?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I started off I was thinking about pre-vet, and then I like, all the classes were just really hard and everything, and I was having trouble balancing running with school. And then I thought about speech a little bit because I kept hearing about it. Like, my mom's best friend growing up was a speech pathologist, and I thought maybe I'd like that. And then the classes were fun and everything, and then towards the end I was like, I actually think I like PT better. So then I started to kind of like go for PT school, and I probably would have applied to PT schools if I didn't keep running. So yeah, yeah.

And is it true you have a master's degree?

No, I don't. No, no.

Shoot. Will you?

If I want to do like PT school one day, then I guess I'd be a doctor.

But yeah, yeah. So, um, Yeah, that's a weird kind of thing because like, you know, if you have like, if you have a gift for a sport, like that's pretty, you know, that pulls you along in a certain direction. Like, wow, I'm really good at this. And like, you know, there could be opportunity here, but also like, you know, you have a mind that has other interests too. And, you know, when you're young and developing, You might not know exactly which fork in the road to take. It's like, do I take like a body-focused one? Yeah. Or a brain-focused one? You know, was that—

Yeah.

Was that at all challenging for you?

Yeah, like I've just always been a very like active— I'm very focused when I can like be moving. Like I did gymnastics growing up and it was just like, I loved it, you know, 'cause I'm like moving my body and it's really fun. And school was just never fun to me. I mean, I was like decent at school, but— and then, I mean, I feel like a lot of kids like know what they want to be when they grow up, and I thought I wanted to be a vet and everything. And I don't know, it's hard when you get to college because you're kind of like forced to choose something really fast.

Yeah.

And you start taking these classes and you're, you're kind of on this like 4-year timeline and like you're trying to make the decision really fast. And so like, I feel like there wasn't— I didn't have enough time to like figure out what I wanted to do. But thankfully, like, running was something that I was like, I could see my— I was like seeing progression and everything. So it was just like natural to keep running and everything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. But also like, I mean, I guess you have to take your, uh, I mean, you're trying to make a smart decision, right? I mean, for sure you have like your passions and those need, you know, you need to honor your passions, right? But also you're trying to be smart. It's like, well, it's my future, you know, like I have to, like I'm presumably going to have bills I have to pay. So, you know, when you think about it like sort of rationally, like, you know, choosing a career, You know, like you have to consider like the context and the context is like that's what determines whether there are opportunities. So how, how did that element play out where, you know, I mean, it's like, well, I'm really good at running, but like Bill Rogers was really good at running in 1972 before you were allowed to be a professional runner. And it wasn't really a good way to make a living.

Yeah, yeah, I feel like it was scary for my parents a little bit because they like wanted me to be stable in life and like go get a degree where I can like take care of myself financially easily and all that kind of stuff.

Like veterinarian?

Yeah, or I feel like I just always have had the feeling that I'll find a way, and if like something doesn't work out, I'll find a different way. And if running didn't work out, if I had to for a while, I'd have a job I didn't like until I could like get a degree in something I did think I could like do for a long time. So I kind of, I feel like I'm more of a chill person, so I'm like not worried all the time. So I wasn't always worried about like that, but my parents were. And then I remember our coach at Colorado, Mark, he had like a talk with everybody like saying he's only had 2 athletes that have been able to like take care of themselves with running only. And so he basically was kind of trying to tell us like we need to worry about like other things outside of running, which is like a really good thing for him to tell us. And I remember thinking like, oh no, I need to figure that out because I'm kind of putting all my eggs in this running basket. But I mean, I'm glad I put all the eggs in that basket because I don't think I would have gotten here if I didn't.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh shoot, I was gonna— I had a follow-up question all teed up and then like, wait, so we're talking about Mark Whitmore here?

Yeah.

Okay, and like he's only had two?

Well, he said two. I mean, he might have just been—

I mean, I can think of like seven.

I think running has become something that you can like sponsorships are a little better nowadays and everything. In the past it wasn't always like that, so Yeah.

Yeah.

Now he definitely has more than 2.

Right. Yeah. Okay. But that wasn't that long ago.

Yeah. He's probably just trying to scare us.

Yeah. Okay. Rewinding. Well, yeah, I'll open up for questions. Like if you have one teed up, you and you are always welcome. Questions from the gallery. But before we get there, I'd like to rewind a little bit. So you grew up in Ohio?

Yeah.

Yeah, what was that like?

It was good. Yeah, I think, I mean, I still like Ohio and maybe I'll move back one day. I think it's a good place to like raise a family. It's a good family place. Yeah, there's a lot of cities you can go to, a lot of cool suburbs. Yeah. Yeah, very Buckeye Nation. Everyone loves football. And yeah, yeah.

So, um, were your parents athletic?

Uh, my dad, he ran in high school and he was pretty good, and then he was in the marching band at Ohio State and probably could have ran in college, but my mom wasn't super athletic. And my siblings are pretty athletic, like my sisters were dancers and cheerleaders. My brother is mostly just a musician and he still is a musician, so he went like more artistic route.

Right on.

Yeah, I was never musical, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But you were, uh, were you hyperactive?

When I was little?

Yeah. Um, borderline?

I feel like, I feel like no, I was very quiet and, but like in sports I just feel like I could just, it felt right, I guess. Yeah, but I wouldn't say I was like super hyper. Yeah.

And then did, you know, because there are like, uh, there's an infinite variety of ways to like move your body, did running like jump out quickly to you as like giving you like that extra right feeling? It's like, whoa, I was kind of born to do this.

So I did gymnastics for a really long time and we would run at gymnastics to warm up and I feel like I could kind of tell them that I was a pretty good runner because me and some of the other girls would like run really fast for the warm-up. And I kind of— oh, I also did little kid— we called it Munchkin Track. It was like all the little feeder schools for our high school like ran little track meets and stuff, but it wasn't serious or anything. You just kind of go race, and I was pretty good at that. And I guess I guess on the soccer field. I did some soccer, just run the ball really fast, so I guess a little bit. But I actually tried out for track my freshman year, and I did it for 3 days, and then I quit because I hated it. And then, yeah, it was just painful, and everybody was throwing up. I was like, this is not fun. Yeah. And then I was kind of mad at myself for quitting, so I tried again my sophomore year and it stuck a little longer and became fun.

So, wow. Yeah, I don't know if I have heard that before, you know, from a runner who's like gotten to the level you have to like, like, I tried it, I'm going to quit, I didn't like quitting.

Yeah, yeah, I remember like my friend and I quit together and I called my dad and I was like, will you care if I quit? This isn't fun. He's like, I'm, I'm never going to make you do something you don't want to do. And so I did not go back.

And until you did?

Yeah. And even the second time, the first few days I was like, why am I trying this again? This is awful. And then I stuck with it long. You just— running's weird because if you stick with it, it does start to feel better.

Yes.

And I'm glad I did. I don't know why. I think I just couldn't quit twice. I just couldn't be a quitter two times in a row. So Yeah, and then I think all the girls on the team were just super nice and fun, and that kind of kept bringing me back more than running did. Just the people, and I don't know, it's just like an activity, kind of— it's a very social activity. Like, I don't know how swimmers do it because they're like in the water and they can't really talk, but running is like very social and you're talking, and I guess unless you're running really fast.

Yeah, or yeah, just— I mean, if you're in a team environment which is like, that's all you've ever known, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so that helps. Yep. Questions from the gallery. Got Aaron here from North Carolina.

Originally from Ohio though.

Oh really?

Cleveland, Ohio.

Oh cool.

So I guess, I guess the question I would have is, you know, you're running, you're doing awesome, you're at Ohio State. Like, how did you end up as a professional runner? Did they reach out to you? Did you reach out to them? Did they just saw you running a race?

Similar to like college recruiting, I think pro teams are actively recruiting and looking at results. So I— my last year, I like— I did 4 years at Ohio State, then 2 years at Colorado. With COVID and everything, I had extra eligibility. In my last year at Colorado, I kind of had a huge jump, and the original coach for NAZ went to Colorado, so I think he was like interested in me like for that. And also like my results kind of looked like I could like get better and everything, so And then they reached out to me and I came on a visit and everything kind of clicked. So yeah, does that answer your question?

And then another question that, you know, I think a lot of runners like ask themselves is like, maybe the answer changes over time, but like today, what would the answer be to like, why do you run other than money?

I think I just really like how it gets me outside because I, I'm kind of like a nature-y person and I like getting outside. And if I wasn't running, I'd probably do like a lot of hiking and stuff and camping. So it just gives me that like fresh air. I need for the day. And also the exercise, I just like being active. And then I'm a really competitive person, like I grew up with a twin brother, and so I feel like that's made me a really competitive person. And like racing is something I just really like, like I like being in a race and like competing against other people and trying to win, even though it doesn't usually always work out. There's a lot of losses before the wins, but Yeah.

Um, so earlier you said that you're kind of like a chill personality and you're just like, I'll just figure it out, like I'm not going to stress about it. Do you see that playing a role in your running, and if so, how?

Yeah, for sure. Like, I think I actually talk about this a lot with some of my teammates, but at the pro level it's kind of funny because it's kind of weeded out like really Type A people. I think if you, some people do well being Type A, but like I think sometimes at this level it's better to be a little like lowercase a because you'll burn yourself out or get hurt if you're like going too crazy all the time. And so I feel like it's helped me to be more Type B and chill because like I can push myself really hard when I need to, but I can also really let myself recover and like I don't stress a lot, and I feel like my cortisol is pretty low usually. I'm pretty chill, so— but I don't— like, sometimes I think I need to be a little more, like, on everything, and I have to force myself to be a little bit sometimes.

Yeah, I was going to ask that very question. I meant to follow up on it, Lauren. And yeah, I mean, like, I've seen that over and over and over and over again where— yeah, you're right. Like, you have to have that, you know, you said you're competitive, so like you have to have that, right? If you're competing like at the world level, You know, you have to want to win, but, but yeah, it seems like the people who like get to the top and hang out there for a little while, like they are like, they're not uptight, you know, they're hungry, but they're not uptight.

Yeah, uptight's a good word. Like not being uptight, because if something goes wrong and you freak out, and that's happening all the time, I just think that will drive you crazy.

Exactly.

Or your body just can't handle that all the time and your brain too, so.

Yeah, it's maladaptive to be uptight, you know, if you're an elite-level athlete.

Yeah.

Yeah, you just have to be chill. Hungry but chill.

Yeah, sometimes I like try not to let myself get too chill because I want to be in a race and I want to be like on that edge where like if something, if someone makes a move, like I can't be too chill where I'm like, uh, I'll just let them go. Because sometimes I find myself in that, like in practice at least, like I don't always want to push myself every day, so like a lot of days I'm just like, ah, like I'll let them go today, it's okay, I did like, I did enough work. But I think it's good to sometimes have a little bit of that like readiness and pounciness, so I guess it's a balance.

Yeah, it is a balance, but like, you know, a lot of people are coming at it from the other side. Like, you know, you're chilling off, but you might like need to like hone your edge a little bit. But like, you know, the people— there's a lot of people over here where they're just uptight.

Yeah.

And they, you know, they— and, you know, you can be uptight and even not like have that competitive fire. So like that, you know, that was my like, you you know, when I was here with your team in 2017 and, you know, the team was smaller then, Futsim was there, Steph, Kellen, like, that's it. Like, everyone else is new. But I remember, like, you know, I was here long enough to get to know, like, each person on the team individually. I'm like, I am the most uptight person. I'm also the slowest. Like, coincidence? Yeah, it was really eye-opening for me because like, that's like, some things I did expect, like everyone would be faster than me, but I did not expect that, you know? Yeah, it's like, wow, I just have a stick up my ass that like no one else around me seems to have.

I've honestly noticed it more at the pro level too, just like, I feel like at this point everyone's kind of been through everything long enough where like On the start line, everyone is kind of making jokes and being funny, even though inside they're really nervous. But I noticed that, I think in college, my teammates and even myself, I might have been a little more uptight on race day and stuff. Like, what do I eat? What time do I wake up? All that kind of stuff. But I don't know. It just doesn't do you any favors in the end to be worried about everything.

No. No, it really doesn't. Yeah, that's interesting. What do you got, Betsy?

I was just thinking I wish I could be that chill.

Oh, that sounds nice. I feel like you're moving in that direction slowly.

I feel like being exposed to stress can kind of help you become tiller. You know, like, you get kind of used to it.

Yeah.

We have a question from, like, uh, a viewer. Um, I didn't get to catch the name before the message disappeared, but the question was, uh, what advice would you have for beginner runners who want to quit?

Yeah, good one.

I mean, I guess if you're going to quit You should just quit once. And then maybe once you quit you can decide if it was a good idea after and then try again. Or if you don't miss it or don't have any regrets, maybe it wasn't meant for you. I don't think there's anything wrong with quitting if it doesn't make you happy. But I also kind of think sometimes you have to give something long enough. Of a chance to figure out if you like it or not. Because I didn't give it— I only gave it 3 days the first time, so that was not enough time.

That's an eternity when you're 14.

Yeah, yeah, of pain. 3 days of pain.

Yeah. Wow, that's really wise though. I love what you just said. That's a really great answer. Uh, cool.

Great question.

Yes. Uh, um, so what are your PRs?

Uh, in the mile it's 4:26, in the 5K it's 15:09, uh, 10K—

we won't talk about the 10K.

Okay, yeah, that's coming down. No 10K.

Uh, 4:07, 1500, you can run faster than that.

Oh yeah, yeah, I think it's coming, hopefully.

Yeah, so I mean, for those who are just being introduced to your awesomeness, like, what is your specialty? Like, what kind of racer are you? I mean, we have a lot of pro runners come through here, and they're not all focused on the same thing. Um, what's your thing?

Like what, race distance or like type of race?

Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, uh, yeah, um, you know, uh, surface, distance.

Um, I think right now I'm a track 5Ker that likes to run miles. I just think like at this level it's been a little hard because a lot of the, like, span of how the, like, top end and the middle is kind of a big range. And so it's kind of hard to get in the 5Ks and feel like you're racing because the top end is so fast that you're kind of just hanging on and stuff. Yeah, but that's, like, been the challenge. That was even the challenge in college, was just get to the point where you can get competitive, and then it feels like a real race once you can, like, be in the front and, like, race.

To win, right?

And so that's just part of the process as a new pro, I think, is to just get to that point where you can be strong enough to be in the race till the end, where you can actually like do the racing part. Yeah, yeah. And then the miles I ran last year just felt like they were more— I was more like in involved in the race, right? Because I could like— they were like more in my wheelhouse, I guess. So those are just really fun to do, and it made me feel like I was a miler. And maybe I am, but I think my best distance is probably the 5K.

Mhm. Yeah, yeah, that's like, you know, that, that's a, a tough spot to be in. Um, you know, I, I can't relate, you know, where it's like, I mean, you, you, you're good enough where you ascend to the level where you are running against like the very best athletes, it's like, but you just got there. You know what I mean? So you can't necessarily just like jump right in and beat the very best. So it's kind of weird 'cause like you have to be really good, you know, like, I mean, you have won a lot of races, you know, over the years. You know, you have earned your way into the races where you're competing against the very best, but like, but now you're there and it's like, and the point is to— it's still a race, you know, you're trying to win. Like, what is that like psychologically? This is something like I have never experienced, never will experience, and I'm just curious, like kind of being the newbie. Yeah, yeah.

Uh, I feel like it's nothing I haven't been through before because like any level you're at, you're kind of trying to reach the next level. Like even if I ever was in a position where I was at the top of the US, like it's still like, okay, the next thing is the top, like racing the world. So there's just like always different levels and I think like as you're getting to the top of each level, there's— it's like the same mindset where you're kind of just like you have to believe that you can get there. And also like run your own race and be like, you have like, you can't do change anything like where you are at that moment in the race. Like you kind of just have to do your best that day and like with the abilities you have at the time. So I think kind of focusing on yourself and also like believing in the process and knowing that like all each like race and experience is kind of helping you get there. Yeah.

So the question I wanted to ask earlier but didn't because I got derailed by your saying that Mark Whitmore said that he'd only had 2 runners come through who could take care of themselves, but was like, so you talked about like experiencing like a jump in performance. Like, that's definitely a thing. Like anyone who's been running for a minute, like you know, progress is not linear. You know, there are times when you feel like I'm working hard and I'm just kind of treading water. And there are other times it's like, oh, I just surprised myself. And sometimes when it is more like, like a gentle slope of improvement. But two-part question, like what led to that, that jump that you experienced at CU and then You know, is that a replicable formula where you could like, you know, now even at the level you're at now, like maybe have another jump?

I think what led to that big jump, and I've had like other big jumps before, and I think a lot of it is kind of just like something kind of switches in your head. And if your mind can see yourself somewhere and believe that you're somewhere new, your body can kind of follow, I feel like. And maybe I'm just making that up, but I feel like it could.

You had me.

I feel like I talk about this sometimes and I feel like it's just from like weird TikTok videos I watch, but it's like quantum physics. Like your body follows your mind. But I don't know, I feel like I want to believe this. TikTok's a weird place. But, uh, like, kind of like both of the times I had like months and months of like base training, and so I was able to just get really, really strong, and it just gave me a lot of time, and you find this like meditative kind of flow state, and you're in this training flow, and your mind is following it, and you're also— your mind is leading it, and you're just kind of going through the ebbs and flows of like hard day, letting your body recover, and then you're getting a little better, and then the next hard day you're able to go a little faster. And like when you— I think when you have like enough base time to do that, you can have bigger jumps. And I think sometimes in college it's harder to have those Right. Because there's so many seasons, there's not enough like downtime to let your body just kind of like get strong and not be in this like I'm racing all the time state.

Yeah.

But that's just my theory.

Yeah. Uh, no, I mean, it totally— well, it just like, it resonates with, with my experience. Like, yeah, I think that's— yeah, it's like you have to, you have to— like a snake, you got to coil before you strike. Yeah, yeah, just coiling, coiling, coiling, like you got all this pent-up power. Yeah, then you race.

I also saw a graphic this past winter when I was like finding myself really out of shape, and I was like, I have to go through all this like base training stuff and getting myself fit again stage. And like, it was just this roller coaster graphic, and it kind of went like a little roller coaster and then a bigger one, and it was kind of the, the cart was up and it had to go down before it swung back up and then goes down again and they can swing even bigger. So I feel like that's kind of like running.

Yes. Yes, it is. Very much so. You know, one of the things that definitely helps is, well, I would say two things, like if you're going to, I mean, that, that is how it works. In my experience, it's like it's not linear. It is kind of those, you know, progressive spirals, like down and up and down and up. As long as the overall trend is like positive, good. Like, I think, you know, for people who like, you know, actually get somewhere with that, you know, kind of two steps forward, one step back style of progress, like 2 things really matter. Like, one is like, you got to stay in love with it, you know, the sport, you know what I mean? Like, fell in love, like, got to stay in love, you know, that, you know, that the spark has to remain there because it's just too hard otherwise, right? Like, you have to want to be there. And then health is the other, you know, it's like, you know, minimizing injuries are a part of the sport, but minimizing those interruptions, just health is the foundation of fitness. How are you? You seem to be on this course. Have you stayed in love with running and have you stayed healthy?

I stay pretty healthy. I think everyone kind of runs into certain things though throughout their career. I'd be surprised if you never did. I don't know. I think like, like physically, if you don't push yourself and you stay chill, you can stay more healthy and everything. And I think it's also really, really important to have the right people in your corner. Like, who are you seeing to keep your body together? Are they actually helping you? And do you trust them? Because I, I feel like it's taken like really like people I trust in my life to like keep my body together and my mind, like coaching, like the right coaches to keep your mind and like trusting the process and everything. So yeah, I'm thankful to have like really good— like I have a chiropractor in town that I see that I love and he helps me stay in one piece.

Who's that?

Wes.

Wes Greg? Yeah, Wesley Greg, everyone.

Yeah, he's good. Like even if I've had like little like anything pop up, I can like keep running because he helps me stay in one piece, and that's been good. And then also in college I've had good trainers and everything keep me together. I also think like strength training helps you stay healthy. And yeah, staying positive too. I think like your mindset can also really affect your physical health too. Like if you're not sleeping and if you're like stressed all the time, I you can get injured more easily.

Mhm. Yep.

Yeah.

Uh, welcome another question from the gallery.

Yeah, so what does a race day meal look like?

Do you have like a go-to race day meal? Let's think. If it's like a morning race, I like just pancakes. I feel like they sit really well in my stomach. If I have enough time, I'll eat some eggs too. If it's like a later race, I'll still have a big breakfast, and then I'll just try to keep it pretty simple before. Sometimes I'll have a sandwich. Sometimes I'll try to eat like breakfast again because I know breakfast is safe. But yeah, just like keeping it— like before you race, you don't— you want to have like just simple carbs and complex, like things that aren't gonna like irritate your stomach. And like you don't need a ton of protein, and also you don't want to like a lot of the extra veggies or anything because that's just too fibrous and then your stomach will get upset. Like, but everyone has like different like tolerances of their— what their stomach can handle. Like I heard Alephine can basically basically anything before she runs. Yeah.

Excellent. Thank you very much. Yeah, and so we're in a— we are in an Olympic year. Would you like to go to Paris?

Uh-huh.

What would that take?

Definitely.

What would that take?

I'd have to get top 3 in the 5K trials.

Mm-hmm. When and where?

I think they're in June. I actually don't know. I see this is like my Type B coming out. I don't know the actual date.

You see, people.

I just know. I know what I have in like 3 weeks. I have a big race coming up first. I have to check that out.

Yeah. One step at a time, right?

Yeah. My parents know the date. They already have plane tickets. They'll be there.

Right. They'll remind you.

Yeah. Sometime in June.

I love it. So, um—

I'm caught.

It's— no. Like, you're normal.

Maybe not though.

And then, Sarah, have you met the qualifying time standard yet?

No. So in 3 weeks, I'm doing—

That's the next thing.

Grand Prix. Yeah.

Write it down.

On the 17th. And that's a 5K. I think it's going to be paced at the standard for the Olympics, which is 14:52. So my goal is to get close. Because with world rankings, we— you can all— if you're top 3 at USAAs and you have a high enough world ranking, you can still go to Paris.

Yeah.

And right now I'm under the standard, like I have a good world ranking, but things will probably shift around, right? So gotta keep the world ranking good enough.

Yeah. What does that look like when, um, because like a lot of us like who, you know, run at the amateur level You know, we're just trying to PR every now and then. It's like, you know, hit like some kind of qualifying, like Boston standard. But it's like, that's like, you know, well, the fastest I've ever run is this. I like one second better is yay, I'm better. But for you, it's like, it's 14:52.

Yeah.

You know, what's that like? So do you train like, you know, just like for 14:52 or bust, or are you just like trying to improve just like us?

Um, so we do like a lot of strength threshold workouts, and that's just supposed to kind of like help support our ability to be able to run 14:52. And then we hit these like VO2 workouts every once in a while. We don't do them all the time, but Jack tries to separate them like 10 days from each other because your body kind of goes in such a deficit that you need like kind of 10— if you do them like every 7 days, it's just too much for your body. Yeah. And so, yeah, and so we— on those days we're hitting the goal race pace, and they're kind of— they kind of build off of each other each time we do them. So hopefully we can like hold that pace a little longer each workout. And a lot of the workouts will start off with like a fast 800 or a fast 400 to try to like mimic a race going out really hard, and then you kind of have to get your body to like recover a little bit enough so that you can like hold a fast pace even after going out hard. So yeah, it's my kind of my first time. We did VO2 max, I've done VO2 max in the past, but it's never been like this calculated and stuff, so it's exciting. They kind of like see Jack's plan and try to follow it, and I think it's gonna like get us in a good place.

Yeah, yeah, I like the sound of it. I hope you're paying attention over there, Betsy. Yeah, because you got, you got some of this coming at you pretty soon. Betsy's training to run across the United States of America.

Whoa, that's crazy. That's cool.

Mm-hmm. But, you know, even with that very different type of goal, like Olympics for you, running across America for you, like, you know, Betsy came to me like a couple weeks ago and said like, I just think it would benefit me if like, if my easy pace felt easier. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, well, VO2 max.

Yeah. Yeah, it is crazy how VO2 max kind of gives you a little boost right away. Like, I feel like I didn't do a lot of them in the winter, and then I did a few, and it just kind of like shocked my system back into like feeling a lot better. And easy days have gotten faster a little bit. This should help.

We're gonna shock your system. It's gonna be fun. Cool. Well, I, I'm hankering for some lasagna.

Me too.

Yeah, cool. All right, let's eat some lasagna. Um, if you were here, you would also be eating lasagna, but this is possible. DreamRunCamp.com. You could be sitting right here— no, right here next to Abby Nichols. Thank you so much, really appreciated having you. We're rooting for you.

Thank you.

Yeah, I think, uh, you got great things coming.

Thanks.