Nick Arciniaga: Running Plateaus, Chasing the Olympic Marathon Team, and Supershoes!

As always, coming at you from the 1400-pound sectional at Dream Run Camp in Flagstaff, Arizona. Behind the camera, my trusted advisor Lauren Clement. Got a good complement of folks here, a good variety of runners. We still have a little bit of our college invasion going on, which I've really been enjoying. It makes me feel like older and younger at the same time. So thank you for that.

You're welcome. Only one here representing.

Yeah, um, and I'm really excited about— I say this every week, but I'm really excited about my, uh, my current guest, who is just a random guy I play poker with, uh, Nick Arseniaga.

Yeah, yeah, at the same, same winner's table for a long time.

Was that a fair and accurate Description.

I can call myself random. Yeah, yeah, that's fair.

Well, yeah, I guess actually the random part is not accurate, but do— have we or have we not played poker together?

At least 3 times for sure. You bring the jerky, right?

Yeah. Uh, no, I don't. No, I did the first time. Okay, I brought the, uh, the non-alcoholic beer.

Makes you safer driving.

Yeah, and it's funny, I won more hands Stone cold sober. Yep. Yes, suddenly I felt like I was good at poker. Yeah. Um, how else do we know each other?

Oh, just dating back at least 14 years now. I was on the Adidas team with McMillan, came out to have us do some skits we were just talking about back in the day, and then, um Yeah, you were with—

hopefully that video is not accessible.

I don't think so.

I haven't tried looking it up, but yeah, the Shalane and Kara cat fight video is, last I checked, still accessible.

I'm looking it up.

Yeah, well, might pop it up on the big screen. Uh, yeah, have a look at that. Uh, yes, so, um, and then what else?

Well, just you coming to town often. Your books, you're emailing me at the shops that I work at, say, hey, can I do a little book tour with you guys? And then you're out with Ben Rosario for a bit. And yeah, we just, you know, running Runner's World, you know, we bump into each other all over the place.

Yes, yes we do. Um, so let's get back to the Adidas McMillan team. So what was actually— that was my first time ever setting foot in Flagstaff. And so this would have been 2009, would have been at least 10.

I can't remember.

10. Okay, probably 10, maybe 11. Uh, so I was— that was my first impression. It's funny because like I have kind of vague memories of that. I'm like, I like the Flagstaff I experienced now had—

I'm just—

it feels like a different place.

It is worlds different. Like the McMillan team, like it was the one team in town. Now there's 3, like, pro teams and training groups coming out all the time. Back in 2010, we probably had 1 or 2 college teams coming out to train over the summer besides NAU, and then a couple high school kids coming up from Phoenix. Yep. Now there's just hordes of them, college and high school teams, it's nonstop.

Hordes.

And the pros, like, all the world-level, like, type pros are coming out here for their training season. 4 weeks at a time before Olympics or before World Championships. So, and then all these people, all these people, Dream Run campers, we got the, uh, the Rob Carr campers, the Steph Bruce, yeah, Bruce campers, sorry, Ben and Steph Bruce campers. There's a champion's couch right here. Yeah, so it's a, it's a very, very popular spot nowadays versus 14 years ago.

Yeah, so, but that was, that was cool, right? You're, uh, a professional runner on a team sponsored by a major shoe brand. I would have loved to have gotten to that level.

Yeah, couldn't.

How did you, uh, it—

how did I get to that level?

Yeah.

Oh man, it was years in the making. Like, uh, so I did my first marathon in 2006 when I was 23. A little young historically for a marathoner. Um, but then like I ran a trials qualifier and ended up from there joining the Hansons team. Was more of a development program, um, in Michigan. In Michigan, yeah, with them, with Brooks Hansons for 3 years. It was under like a team contract, so it wasn't individually sponsored by Brooks, but the coaches and store owners out there, they took care of pretty much everything. Like I didn't have to pay rent, I had a job. I could work 20 to 30 hours a week to pay for whatever bills did incur, but it was a lot cheaper 18 years ago to base living anywhere. Um, but yeah, then Brooks provided a contract and you hit time bonuses and they provided all these— the gear and everything. That was my first experience with having a real, like, true sponsorship. And then after my 3 years there, I felt I wanted to relocate. The Midwest wasn't feeling right for me. Wasn't happy, so I wanted to come out to try altitude. I had a teammate from college who was out here training with Greg McMillan and the team here. Brett Gotcher had just run 2:10 in the marathon. I had just run 2:13 at the time when I was leaving Hanson, so I wanted to get in a group where I can have somebody to chase or somebody to work with. I saw Brett and my other teammates here as a possibility to have a more elite group rather than a development team. Busted altitude training, just hoping that would work out. Um, after 4 months, maybe even 3 months here, um, is when I ran Rock 'n' Roll San Diego, where you said, uh, we had met there. And I ran my first 2:11, uh, first of 4 2:11s. And from there, like, I got my individual contract from Adidas based off that and just never looked back, just always running marathons from then on.

Not to digress, but, uh, um, statistically, how many people do you think have run 4 2:11 marathons and never faster?

And never faster? Very few. Very few. Uh, there's a couple guys that I know that we were— a bunch of us stuck at 2:11, but not 4 times for the rest of them. Yeah, there's a A lot of guys, definitely in my generation, before super shoes came along, we were kind of stuck in that 210 to 212 range. Like, 209 was always the goal for a lot of us, like non-Abdi, non-Ryan Hall, or Matt Kensalese, yeah, David Gritzenhagen type guys. Like, yeah, we're not Foot Locker champions, we're just guys who were like— some, most of us were like, you know, marathon was our event because we didn't do well at any other distance in the NCAA. I never made a national championship in, uh, college, never made a state championship in high school.

Anyone else? Anyone here made a national championship?

So yeah, this is good company.

Yeah, exactly.

But yeah, all the guys who I would race against in that type of, uh, range, like half of them would be like state champions, half of them would be like myself, just like workhorses, just running high volume, high mileage for pretty much the entire career since high school. Yeah, grinding it out until you finally succeed.

You are, uh, you're kind of the American Wilson Kipsang. Yeah, he ran— he had the distinction— this is back when the men's marathon world record was, I think, in the 2:02 range. But right, he He ran 2:03 4 times.

Yes. With one of those being 2:03.02.

Yeah. Without ever having the world record. Yeah. So he had the most almost fastest time. Yes. So yeah. How do you feel about that? Like, you know, is it, was it a, did it become a, I mean, cause like obviously that like maybe, you know, 10 years before before you ran the first of those times, you couldn't have ever imagined getting that far. But then once you've gotten that far and you're still young, you want to get further. Did it get kind of frustrating to keep like knocking on the door of 2:10, 2:09?

Uh, not necessarily frustrating. I always come out of a race like satisfied with how I race, how the effort I put in. Um, usually just always want to have a positive attitude.

No matter what.

But yeah, running 2:11 4 times, that's success. Yeah, like a 4 of a kind right there. I talked to Scott Smith about that all the time. Like, there's people who have like, you know, a straight flush. Yeah, I got a 4 of a kind, so it's pretty good. Um, and like, yeah, I would have loved to run that 2:09, and there's 3 of those 2:11s were on pace at 20, 21 miles, just that last 10K, just I could never quite get the legs there.

What was the deal? Yeah.

But I also wasn't blown up completely, whereas walking it in, I was like, okay, I'm just, instead of running 4:55s, now I'm running 5:15s. It's just enough to put up 2 minutes on the clock at the end of the race. Overall, it's, yeah, satisfied with the career I had and all the success, full races that I had. Even talking with some of the runners nowadays, like, Comparing myself to like Stephanie Bruce, um, she is still competing. She's same age as me and like competing really well, so making all the trials. We finished college around the same time, we joined McMillan Elite at the same time, and she's still going. I've been retired, like I haven't competed in 6 years. Yeah, um, but I also still have more marathons under my belt than Steph has. Couple kids. She took her probably 6 years of breaks in the middle of her performances. But yeah, oh yeah, she's only probably 12 or 13 marathons. I've got 26, so I put a good bulk of those in for a good 10-year career.

Yeah, so say more about that idea of like that distinction between, I don't know, like, like, I don't know, maybe the, the super gifted and the workhorses. Because we all want— I mean, I think, I mean, like, unless, unless you are, you know, Wilson Kipsang and, and you're a runner, you, you probably recognize that your gifts have their limits. Yeah, you know what I mean? And so, like, your focus is like, how do I get more gifted? It's no, no, like, how do I get the most out of whatever potential is in me? So we all want to kind of believe that, like, there's a lot of possible, you know.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, you could— I mean, just to cherry-pick the guys that I would race against and lost to most of the time, like Ryan Hall, Meb Kepeluzi, and Dave Gritzenheim. All three of them are different athletes. Ryan was a talented workhorse. Meb was talented and he just was smart, smart racer and smart trainer. Like, he would get injured, but he could like start running on land 5 weeks marathon than win New York City. You know, it's kind of like different levels of talent. And then Dathan, much more talented than either of those two, arguably, but injury-prone.

Yeah.

So it— everybody has their like goods and bads. But then there's guys like myself, like I would just put in the work. Like my gift, my talent is that I can run 140 to 160 miles a week consistently and not break down. I didn't have that raw speed that the other guys had. I raced Ryan in high school. He was a 4:02 miler, I was 4:18. So it was just per mile gap, it's, you know, it's pretty heavy to try to catch up to. But I only beat Ryan once at the end of his career, once he kind of had to shut things down.

Anyone else beaten Ryan Hall in a race? I'm surprised.

Yeah, once he bulked up.

Yeah, he could still beat me.

Yeah, but then the other guys were like, um, you know, non-state qualifiers, non-national qualifiers. Those guys who were racing against like, uh, Brian Vale or Jeff Eggleston, they were putting in like the same type of volume that I was putting in as well, just higher mileages, putting in day after day, around 14 miles in the morning, 8 miles in the afternoon, 20-mile long run at the end of the week, or, you know, up to 26 miles.

Run.

Just, you know, the mindset of just waking up every single day or waking up twice a day, just go out for a run and put the time in. So that's the benefit of being a professional runner. You don't have a part-time job that you have to worry to go to in the middle of that to tire yourself out.

Yeah. Um, but how about like the, uh, I don't know, like the self— well, just the, the notion that it's worth it. Um, you know, I was, I was, you know, I wasn't even a 4:18 miler in high school. Um, but, and I, you know, I knew I wasn't going to the Olympics, you know, but like, for me, like, it just like running mattered as much as it did for the fastest runners. I'm like, I'm just, just gonna see what's possible. Just go for it. Was that kind of your mindset as well?

Uh, once I got to college, it's kind of my mindset was I just like found like I just enjoyed going out for a run. Then there's like a kind of like, um, a goal for me to just get out and run every single day. I actually did have like a 3.5-year running streak where I didn't take a single day off. Just, just love getting out and I enjoyed it. So yeah, yeah, there's a little— everybody has a little bit of crazy if you're a runner, right?

Um, but a lot of head nods. Yeah, you can't see it, but yeah.

Um, I forgot where I was going with that. But yeah, just going out there and figuring out what my passion was. A lot of times in high school, I was like, I want to be faster, I want to earn a scholarship. That was the goal then. And then also I'd look at the faster guys ahead of me, like, oh, I want to be in the fast guys club. I want to join them and kind of cool down with them and kind of be acknowledged by the fans. There was a little bit of that. By the time I got to college, I didn't really care too much about the accolades and compliments. Trying to get the best out of myself. Yeah, and that translated a little bit more into my post-collegiate career as well. I was like, I was just gonna go run every single race I could find every weekend. It's more fun to go out there and compete, whether I'm racing fast and getting beat by faster guys, or just having a terrible day in 90-degree heat in California in the middle of summer and just walking it in.

Yep, yep. How about the phenomenon of like surprising yourself with what you can do. I think like at all levels of the sport, like that's an experience that like you have sometimes, like especially if you like, I don't know what it's like to be born with the genes where you're like, I know I'm the best, you know? But like for everyone else, it's like, you know, I have some kind of a knack for this, but I'm limited. But then it just remains to be seen like what your actual limit is. And for me, like I would say, like, you know, the way I looked at it when I was 14, like first, like really getting serious about running competitively, what I ended up achieving, you know, actually fell short of what I thought I might, but like some stuff I did when I was older, I actually really did surprise myself. Like, you know, you you know, like I did a couple things like I just would not have thought but were possible for me, like just being older. Did you have experiences where you're like, I can't believe I just did?

Yeah, my debut marathon, like I ran 2:16, um, when I was 23 in '06, uh, Chicago. And going into that race, I'd run a 1:06 half marathon. So 1:06 does not translate to 1:16, like, on paper. Um, but going into it, like, I wanted to hit either the A standard— that's A standard at the time was 2:20, uh, 2:22 was the B standard. So either way, be able to qualify for the Olympic trials. Um, and just during the race—

those were the days.

Yeah, I wish it was that way. It could have been a 4-time qualifier. But yeah, the ultimate dream was always to make the Olympics, but going into that one race, like, I had trained okay for it. I was doing my high-mileage training, which covered the base of marathon training. It wasn't there for like the speed or going much faster, but carried the endurance. During the race, I started just letting my body just flow through with times and have like any splits in mind, just like run until I just hold pace anymore and ended up running with the group Hanson's Runners as they're on pace to try to run 2:15, where a lot of them were debuting there as well to try to qualify for the trials. And just stuck with them until mile 20, and then just— they ran away from me. I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna hold my pace as best I can, just kind of get to the finish line. And coming across 2:16, which is 3 minutes faster than I was originally hoping for, like, oh, that's not what I was expecting. I'm actually a pretty decent marathoner, and then looking back in hindsight, all the training I did from high school to college was marathon training, even though I was trying to race a mile. So it was just coaching and guidance wasn't quite lining up with the, uh, training philosophy that I had. So that was the part of the biggest surprise. And then yeah, just kind of, okay, I'm a marathoner now, just gotta focus on this and see how I can make it as good as I can.

When, uh, when were— well, it could be right now, I don't know, but, uh, when were you happiest as a runner? Like, what was like the, uh, the absolute, you know, if you just like look back on it all, like, we're like, where do you want to go first?

Yeah, it's, it's tough. Like, it— like the picture you posted with me that, um, on Instagram with the yellow jersey. Adidas, that's me winning the US Championship. So that was like probably the best race both strategically and performance-wise that I executed. Um, it wasn't PR, but that's fine. It's a championship-style race. That was like the only race I really— pro marathon that I won, and then only US Championship, but It's just such a relief.

Anyone else want to ask?

Such a relief to cross that line and first break that tape. Something you dream about, even though didn't quite get it for like Olympic trials. Like, definitely like winning the US Championship was probably the most thrilling on that day. What age were you? What was that? What age were you? I was 30. A while ago, 11 years ago now.

Hmm, yeah, not to overharp on the 4 2:11s, but like, which one in order? I know we had this conversation, I can't remember, like in order, which one was your actual PR?

Uh, so it was a 2011, uh, Houston Marathon, 2:11:30, and I was actually pacing Brad Gotcher that day. Trying to get him to run 2:09. And once I got to 25K, like I discussed with Greg and discussed with the race director, if I feel good I could still finish. Couldn't keep up with Brett anymore at a 2:09 pace, so I backed off from 4:55 to 5:05, felt good again, and then just held 5:05 basically to the finish and beat Brett on my way there.

Was that the first of the four?

That was the second. So two points— sorry, I went out of order. Yeah, my PR was 2:11:38 at Houston, and then I ran 2:11:48 at Rock 'n' Roll San Diego in 2010, so it was a year before that. And then I was there. You witnessed it.

I think I interviewed you at the finish.

I think, or finished, where we sat down somewhere. I might have needed to sit down. Then at the Olympic trials in 2012, Houston as well, is 2:11:56. And then in Boston 2014, that was 2:11:47.

So speaking as a writer, I think, I think your story would be slightly less tragic if you'd PR'd in the last of the 4 2:11s.

Yeah, I was trying.

It's like, at least, at least I capped out with a PR.

Yes, I gave it a go again after that. It's just, uh, races started getting hotter and just body started breaking down a little bit more.

So if you had, uh, I ran my, my fastest marathon, and I ran like 50 of them, um, in not super shoes. Yeah, you know, they were just available then. It was Chicago. Galen Rupp won in Super Shoes Jordan SA, but I wasn't wearing them because Hoka didn't have them and I felt loyal to Hoka. But like afterward I started using them and I got a pretty good sense of like how much faster I might have run in them. You know, you didn't have the advantage of that footwear.

No, my last marathon was 2018, um, the super shoes were available at that time, but I wasn't, um, committed to racing one because I hadn't trained in one and wasn't really concerned. Yeah, about it kind of going in that direction.

Marathon?

Yes, no big deal. I'd done so many at that point. Um, but I've talked with different people about it, like whether you're a responder to a certain brand's shoe or whether you're you're, um, responding to a super shoe in general. Like, my stride is fairly efficient. Would I get— yeah, as much benefit as somebody else, um, at my level? Would I get 2 minutes? Would I get 30 seconds? Maybe. I don't know. But I've talked with Mike Smith about it, and he said, oh yeah, a lot of what the super shoe's not necessarily is for that day, um, race day, but also in training you're able to recover faster because you're not beating your body up as much as well. So that's something that, you know, could lead me to attempting to just run more volume. You know, I could have just run 140, 200-mile weeks and kind of bulked it up that way. Just my whole mindset from college was instilled by my high school coach, was like, the more I run, the faster I get. That was the parallel I saw all through high school, all through college. The more I ran, the better So, um, just kept running more and more until kind of hit that volume that started seeing the diminishing return.

Yeah, so 5 seconds per mile, that's my answer.

Yeah, that would be— yeah, good, 2 and a half minutes.

Yeah, like, no, I'm sure of it. That's what I got. Yeah, but yeah, they don't work at all for some people. And then, yeah, how do you feel about it? Because like, you know, we haven't touched on this. I introduced you as a poker friend.

Yeah, poker friend. We'll play softball with Ben as well.

Yeah. So what's your— what's that t-shirt you're wearing?

Let's run Flagstaff. So it's one of those— I'm one of the owners for the running store out here in Flagstaff. So I, uh, bought in in 2019. When we took over the Sedona running store down in Sedona, only about 45 minutes away. And I was working there 6, 7 days a week to turn it in from Sedona Running Company into Run Sedona to mirror what we have up in Flagstaff. And basically brought it around to where it's now a self-sustaining entity. It's very touristy Heavy in Sedona. Yeah, so that's kind of our market is, um, selling to people who come to town not realizing they need some good trail shoes.

Yeah, for the most part.

But then, uh, this past year— it's been 5 years since I moved back— this past year I've been more focused on the growth and involvement for Run Flagstaff, which we've had a couple different projects to try to open up a new, uh, store, did casual shoes or work shoes, um, and then moving towards like just growth growing the run specialty business in Flagstaff in general. We get a lot of traveling runners that are coming out here to buy t-shirts like this or buy new running shoes that they won't be able to find most other places because we're on one of the few shops that really dedicate to trail running. Because that's why Flagstaff's like 60% of the runners out here are here for trail running. So it's a lot of fun to get out there on the trails. That's one thing that I do attribute to some of my sustainability as well. I did a lot of trail running when I was younger in high school and college. The off-camber surfaces help build up and strengthen the muscles a bit more. Kind of a special guest here.

Let's pause for a commercial break. Yes, so Run Flagstaff, proud partner of Trailblazers. Dream Run Camp. So if you sign up for the elite experience at Dream Run Camp, you get a $100 gift. You see me in there all the time. Oh yeah, yeah. Or you and your whole team. Yeah, I'm usually in the office, so I try to just listen to see if I want to like talk. I don't get a discount, I just, I just pay $100 and pass it on. Yeah, yeah. But it's like, it's cool because like, um, it's weird, you know, like, uh, you talked about how much, uh, Flagstaff has transformed as a like a running mecca since the time you first landed here. Um, and yet, you know, like there's really only one game in town for like, like local running retailers, right? And, and that's you. So like, um, you guys are really important the running community here. It's not just the shoes you sell, it's like your running club, your events. So just, yeah, from your perspective, like, you know, what do you see as Run Flagstaff's overall contribution to Flagstaff running vibe?

I mean, for the vibe, we try to keep like the— like a family, more or less. Like everybody who helped Run Flagstaff get to where it is now basically is like family. We know that most of the people that come in by names, if they've shopped with us for the past 14 years or longer. I've only worked with the store since 2013, and Vince and Sarah, who are the, the main majority owners of the soap shop, they've really turned it into what it is now, definitely with help of the employees who are kind of huge involvement with the community, uh, running clubs, running groups, and putting on the races, and just kind of help sponsoring the events, helping the high school teams, uh, who are here locally with the getting the right shoes fit for them, and discounts as well for those kids. Because, you know, making it through high school and even sometimes college can be kind of expensive. You have to change your shoes out so often. But overall, just kind of Building, yeah, the community up more and more. There was a time where like Run Flagstaff does own Team Run Flagstaff now, which is the— our running club has 300 members involved, where Vince, the other owner, and myself were like the head coaches for the squad. So we're out there every single week, just putting our time, just reading out splits to community runners, just running circles around the track and, yeah, learning everybody's name. Getting as close to the involvement within the community as we can. And then, and the downside is we get bigger and more growth, that involvement comes with a lot more responsibility where we've got to keep on top of things, where you get more busy work, more office work. So try not to lose touch.

Yeah, growing pains.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I remember In 2017, when I was here for the summer training with the Nazarite crew, and I went in, I needed new footwear, and I walked into Run Flagstaff. I'd been there before, but I'm just like, I'm just a customer, and like, you were there, and, uh, and you sold me a pair of shoes, and I'm like, this is so Flagstaff, like, you know. A 2:11 marathoner selling shoes to a guy who's not, you know. But yeah, it's— I don't think there's any— like, Boulder doesn't have that, Portland doesn't have that.

Boulder used to have— I don't know, like, Alan Culpepper used to own a store. There's definitely people who had shops, like professional runners, like Bill Rogers owned a running store. A bunch of— yes, a bunch of people did. I don't know how their involvement was with like fitting on the floor, but like I've worked at a shoe store since my sophomore year of college, so I've been fitting people for shoes well before I was as good of a runner.

I was happy with my shoes, but it's second nature now.

Like by the time you came in, I had been doing it for 15 years. It's no problem. But if you go to Hanson's, if you go to Michigan Just north of Detroit, you'll go to any store that has a bunch of fast runners selling the shoes. Yeah, but being a fast runner does not make you that knowledgeable.

Yes, but you are.

I try to be.

Yes. Yeah, actually, you know, getting back to— so yeah, that's how I introduced the whole topic of your t-shirt and Run Flagstaff. But I mean, you are, you are about as knowledgeable as they come. Like, you don't design the shoes, you know, but like, you know a lot.

About? I try to dumb it down for myself because there's a lot of technology. Every brand has something specific. They name it, it's very much the same thing brand to brand, but they name it something different. So I can try to just dumb it down to myself so I can dumb it down to the customer as well. I don't need to tell them every single detailed attribute of the shoes. Like, a lot of times what it comes down to is what feels best. So yeah, analyzing their foot strike, whether it's on the scanner or me watching them walk or watching them run on a treadmill, and then saying these are the options that I say you should try, but you could say, tell me that they all hurt so we can try again. Yeah, it's, it's more about learning to read the customer and help them make the decision.

Yeah, well, it's actually, uh, we haven't talked at that depth about, uh, shoes before, but like, that, that's exactly— I mean, you know a lot more. Yeah, uh, than I do. Yeah, that was quick. But it's true, you know, you know a lot more about shoes.

I don't know how to write a sentence.

Structure it. Uh, but I remember when I was working for a competitor group, like, it was like around the time I first met you when I came out here to do like a really failed comedy skit about running. Um, I, you know, I like— so we were doing, you know, shoe reviews because we had like magazines and websites and and we needed, we were trying to compete against like Runner's World, remember Runner's World?

I do, the head of the magazine, Southern Running Times.

Yeah, to compete with their shoe review, and I was sort of like, you know, kind of the theoretical remove from actually like selling people shoes, but like what my belief was exactly what you just said, It's like, so we came up with like this new system of doing shoe reviews that was all about fit, feel, and ride. And it was like, that was our, that was our like, I don't know, 3-word summation of our philosophy. It's like, it's how it fits when you first put it on, it's how it feels when you first start moving around with it, and it's about how it rides when you actually get it out there. Yeah, and like if it checks those boxes, it doesn't really matter what, you know, the technology is. So we like— I just came up with this and like the, the powers that be were like totally on board. Like, this is cool, this is like a competitive advantage for us. Like we're like coming at them from this side. And then it was so good, like I was, I was flown out— I was editorial, I wasn't involved in sales— but like I wasn't— I, I was flown up to, uh, Nike to like just deliver like this, like, this is our new philosophy of like shoe review. And like I said almost exactly what you just said, like, so basically like all your, all your, all your jargon is bullshit and we're just gonna cut through all of your bullshit and, and do this like whole like, you know, runner-centered fit, feel, and ride. And it did not go Oh, this is a Nike shop. Yeah, Nike. Yeah, yep, yeah. I was like not invited back to any more sales meetings.

Some people's job is head of bullshit.

Yeah, uh, but it's like, it's validating to hear you say that like that's kind of your philosophy, right?

Yeah, and there's, yeah, plenty of other, uh, running shoe stores or fitters that will be a little bit more detail or kind of spout out the knowledge of the specific shoes as well. But I try to— it saves time to not have to explain every single detail of every single shoe, right?

Because like you're just trying to get an outcome, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I had plenty of customers who were like, they would put on the shoe for half a second, like, nope, that's not the one, or yep, there's not enough time. So we didn't even unlace the next pair of shoes for them to try. So the words won't be able to keep up either.

Yes, but you've seen a lot of that in like the history of like, you know, the, the industry is like, um, you know, shoe retailers like tried to like really make it science-y, and then like people would be like, they would have shoes that did not actually feel good like crammed onto their feet. It's like, oh no, like our measurements say like this is the shoe for you. Yeah, but it feels terrible.

Yeah, there's been like, yeah, many shifts of just technologies since I've started. Like, when I first started, it was a lot of the overpronation, dual density material sort of idea, which some brands still have, but they kind of toned it down a little bit. Now there's a lot of guide rail systems that let your foot run naturally but to be protected on the sides. There's the drop differential, where most traditional shoes were 8 to 10 millimeter drop. Now there's a lot that are zero dropper and everywhere in between. Um, there's the the carbon fiber plate to choose, which makes things a little bit more interesting on a daily run if you're using those for your daily trainer because it'll wear down quite a bit faster. But yeah, there's a lot more options. And then throw in trail running as well, which we do a lot out here, and then you double that as far as like the amount of knowledge that you have to know about every specific like category of shoes. So there's a lot to know, a lot lot of love that goes into the construction of each of the shoes as well as just like carrying each of them to very specific customers.

As a, uh, as a non-shoe geek, um, and also just like a non-hot take-oriented person myself, um, like I've, I've basically stayed out of the fray, um, because like, you know, a lot of people have had their hair on fire since like, you know, the Super shoe revolution occurred. Um, I don't know, I just want to know what's legal, honestly.

Can I wear this shoe in my marathon?

Yeah, exactly. If it's legal, I trust you to basically figure it out, you know. Like, I know I'm not allowed to take EPO. Well, good. I could—

yeah.

Uh, and yeah, just tell me what I can and can't wear. And if it's advantageous, like, I'm not going to put an asterisk you know, next to my, my PR. But like, how do you feel about, uh, what's going on? You know, just like philosophically, like, are we like in a golden age of running footwear or not so much?

I'm skeptical about it. Like, I haven't seen— like, as far as like the performance aspect, it's definitely elevating performance, but I haven't seen the, uh, long-term side effects or negative effects that it could could be caused by it. So I can't say whether it's going to be good or bad. Odds are it will be just fine because the way that people are performing nowadays—

time fits Gerald, hates that answer.

Yeah, wasn't good. Okay, sorry. Uh, but yeah, it's the way that they're performing nowadays and the way the faster recovery, like, probably will be no problem. Definitely leading to the next step of evolution of shoes as well. Like, 10 years from now, we're going to be something else, I'm sure. Um, that's how it always is. Like, the shoes I was running with 10 years ago, 14 years ago, uh, were way different than the ones that the guys were running in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. So the technology always advances, and like, it's inherently beneficial to have better shoes. You'll run faster, ideally, and you'll have fewer injuries. But that's nothing to doesn't necessarily show on paper. Like, a lot of people try to show, like, the guys in the '70s and '80s were still running way faster than our professional runners today, for the most part. So, like, not necessarily, like, linear as far as, like, the performance advantage. But yeah, now the super shoes are out, you're seeing quite a bit more of a shift there as well. But a good parallel that I always have looked at with that. Grew up in California, ran high school and college there. When I was in high school, there was Ryan Hall, Fernando Cavada, and I think Josh Spiker ran sub-2 or sub-9 for the 2-mile or 3,200. I forget which one it was. Um, 10 years later, there were dozens. Yeah, nowadays there's a couple dozens. You know, it is just like the talent is definitely like the younger talent The pool is getting larger and larger, so I would have expected the talent pool as they get through college into the professional ranks, the 10K times, the marathon times will be getting slowly faster, but it's also just getting bigger. A lot more people are running those like 27 lows in the 10K or like 2:11 to 2:09 marathons. Like it's very like a dense now. Like, more and more people are at that level just because the talent pool is larger.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, like, for me, like, having basically paid attention to running footwear— I mean, like, as a non-geek, uh, you know, since 1983, um, I mean, I've mentioned this before probably, uh, but like Jeff Johnson, Nike's first employee, the guy who named Nike, Nike, and came up with the Waffle Racer and a lot of their kind of like flagship early running footwear. Like, he was the girls cross-country coach at the high school I went to. And like, so I don't know, I'm just so like, I've had a lot of experience of just like exposure to like the whole how it's evolved over like all that time. And basically, you know, we had the whole barefoot thing, which was like a little bit backward. But to me, it seemed like we're not really just getting anywhere. It's like, and like my conclusion was like, shoes aren't bikes, you know, like, you know, you know, because I did a lot of cycling too. And I saw like, you know, bike technology just like, oh yeah, just take off, you know, and running just didn't do that.

Yeah, and the shoes aren't the machines with the gears that they—

Yeah, and then suddenly it did, you know, so that's a true revolution, but it's always tempting to assume that history stops where you are, but it's not very likely. It's like no asteroids heading at us right now, so very likely we'll wake up tomorrow, sun will rise, and so there could be a future revolution in running footwear, And I wonder if it will be more, you know, because you've said how like, you know, this like this is definitely like a seismic revolution, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Yeah.

So like maybe the next revolution is like figuring out what works best for each individual.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you could look at— and there's so much other technology advancements beyond the shoes, like for recovery with cryo chambers or like this, like not having to take ice baths as much. Like, there's still— I don't know, there's research that says that taking an ice bath is beneficial for you. I would take it every day after my run in college. Yeah. So it's just the difference in recovery, the difference in like rest and like— but then there's also detriment with people's diets. Like, the type of food that we're getting sourced might not be any better than it was 20, 30 years ago. Or like the—

definitely not.

Sitting on your phones all day long rather than reading a book might not be better for the brain. And, you know, there's a lot of goods and bads with the evolution of human. So, yep. Yeah, there's— yeah, more to come. More to come. There's always going to grow. And yeah, there's going to be some new development 10, 15, 20 years from now that will make these Vaporflys look like the shoes that I was racing in. Way a long time ago.

So yeah, so I've utterly failed to open up the floor to questions.

We're just so talkative.

Yeah, I just actually, I, I honestly forgot you all were here.

I have 37 poker questions as well as, was one Flagstaff mad that Roger Federer took your logo? Roger Federer took my— what was my logo? Oh, yeah, yeah, we definitely— we patented the shield. So no, real question though, because you said you did your first marathon at 23. Yes, right. So this is like a three-parter. So what were you running, like, competing in before that? What made you go to the marathons? And then are you interested— are you doing any, like, trail ultras or any of those kind of things these days? Uh, so before I ran my marathon, I was training for track and cross-country type races through college. I was still finishing up my degree. I went through my eligibility in college in 4 years, so I still had a year left to finish up classes before I was free to go out in the world. So I was just running quite a bit and going to school, working part-time at a couple different jobs. I was running 5K, 10K road races, did a couple half marathons. And once I moved to road racing beyond like cross-country and track-type racing, I found like I had a different potential. Like I was racing a lot better than I did competing against like college cross-country runners or track runners. Running on the road, I just had a different rhythm. It just felt smoother and was more competitive. So I did a couple half marathons, and one day I just said, I think I should do a marathon because that might be a good chance to qualify for the trials that's coming up. And I had a couple guys in my ear saying I should give it a go. But yeah, up until that first one, I was just road racing every other weekend basically. And then trail ultras, I've done one trail marathon, one trail ultra, 55K just up here in Flagstaff. I would do more. I just find it— yeah, just whatever, like distance, as long as it's 2 hours and 11 minutes, don't care what the distance is. No, I wanted to do a couple more, and I actually signed up for a race a few weeks ago, but a family trip took us out to California that weekend instead. And now we're having another baby in 2 months, so we're going to be very tired and not able to sign up or train for races really. So yay! Number 2, one boy, one girl.

Breaking news here at DreamRun Camp.

5. Yes, yes. My parents are watching. We're having a girl.

Yeah, uh, our first reveal.

Yeah, no pink balloons.

Yeah, episode number whatever, our first reveal. Um, yeah, was that all 3 parts addressed?

I know I added the 4th part there, but, but you're talking about with like the trail running in the community. Yeah. And if like that had gotten you into that, or if like you got more into that as a result of just to be more knowledgeable about like trail running? No, I trail ran like through high school and college. We'd go to just different trails in the area, and like I love single tracks. It's just a nice way to lose yourself in the space. When I was training here as a professional marathoner, I would do a lot of my long runs on single track trails and just go explore. Most of my teammates didn't do that as much. I had one Andrew Lemoncello, who's a 2:13 Scottish marathoner, and he would go out with me and we'd be like, hey, let's try to run that way and see where we go. And we would just explore all the time. So that's a big drive for me that what I found through college, like I just enjoy running. I want to try to run farther, different places, and new places all the time. So nowadays I just, you know, you got 30 minutes to go out and run, I run the same loop all the time, but I don't get to explore quite as much. Yeah, I'm coming up on a training block, so I'll be kind of like looking for a new shoe rotation. Yeah, so I know you kind of mentioned how it's very subjective, but are there any shoes that you'd highly recommend that you've seen that are well made?

Do you need me?

People are enjoying a lot. Uh, one that we just brought back in recently, I mean hype them up a little bit. That toe—

you guys carry on the conversation—

a little bit wider toe box, both road and trail options. But we just brought them back in a couple weeks ago and we've sold through most of our inventory already. So that'd be something to at least try on your foot just to see how they feel. Um, but, uh, plenty of brands, like, um, they get all the ones that we carry— Saucony, Nike, Hoka— like, they're all good brands. It just depends on how you perform with them and then the durability of those shoes based off your stride is a little bit different. Definitely, we have a— like most specialty shops, we have a 60-day exchange policy. If you try out the shoes and a couple weeks later you're feeling like they're either breaking down or they're just not working for you, then yeah, bring them back and we'll try again. Yeah, because I know I feel like sometimes like certain shoes can kind of start to become super, super popular, and then I find myself just buying them over and over again. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, I need to change. So yeah, I mean, that's— we see that quite often. You have people come in, I've had this shoe like over and over again, just give me that same shoe. Like, oh, we got these other comparable ones, every brand's kind of making a very similar shoe, want to try them on? Sometimes they go for it, sometimes they pass. And yeah, whether they want to try them or not, as long as they're happy and can, you know, run healthily, that's the best. Favorite trail shoe? Oh, I'm rotating through two right now. I have a Nike Zegama 2, which I did rim to rim a few weeks ago with those ones, and then I got a pair of the Topo, which I just mentioned, Mountain Racer 3, which is a little bit lighter weight, the wider toe box, but feel good. But I'm also— I try shoes from every single brand, and usually there's one or two shoes from every brand that work for me. I don't have a very picky foot. At all.

I'm so glad that you all witnessed that, uh, because like this is how, this is how we do it at DreamRun Camp. Like the dream runners come first. Yeah, I was called into duty. I only wish Story had just like come up and like collared me and just, I need you now.

You figured it out though.

Yeah, yeah, I was getting like peripheral. I'm not— I was just kidding. Yeah. Some body language stuff. So yeah. Questions from the group? Thank you for that one. Any others? Thank you for yours. Do y'all carry Diodora?

No. I worked at a shop in Salt Lake running. We just started carrying Diodora out there, and I knew a little bit about them. It's been about 5 years since I tried one on, so I'm not quite familiar with what they're doing right now. At the time they were like a shoe not trying to revolutionize things. They're a shoe that they had been making for years, but just kind of having their mainstay sort of shoes and not updating them as often as every other brand. Like every brand's got like a 12-month or 18-month lifespan and then they update their model, whereas the Adore might go 2 or 3 years. I think On does that same thing where they have a shoe that they carry on for a couple years. So I'm not a sneakerhead. Yeah, definitely like, this is wonderful. No one carries them except like Fleet Feet in Austin. Yeah, so it's like kind of hard to find them. Get them. Yeah, uh, yeah, so I worked at Salt Lake Running Company. They had carried them. I don't know if they still do. Like I said, it's been a few years since I was up there. I don't know if that's any more local to you there.

Rachel's got one. Yeah, thinking about the mental side of running What do you tell yourself mid-training run or mid-race when you think, oh, it might just be easier to stop? Or do you never have those thoughts?

Oh, I have those thoughts. I had those thoughts, I did a track workout this past Tuesday. I'm like, oh, if I make it 4 sets out of these 5, it'll be good enough. That's a workout. In marathons, I've only DNF'd, or in any race, not just marathons, any race, I've only did not finish one time. And that was very regretful. Like, I was definitely having some bodily issues. I was dry heaving from mile 9 until mile 15, so stopping was the best idea. But after I stopped, went to the medical tent, like, I'm feeling fine, maybe I should run again. But then I waited an hour for the shuttle to come and then waited another hour for us to get back to the finish line. So it just took way longer to take the shuttle back to the finish line than if I would just had jogged it in. I was definitely, in my mind now looking back, I was capable of at least just jogging it in. But as far as the rest of the mindset goes, in training runs and in actual races where I'm not feeling that bad, the doubt that comes from like, oh, I'm losing contact with these runners and am I going to finish this race, I always go back to just like numbers in my head. On training runs, I daydream or imagine what it would be like to like go out there. I'm running to like make the Olympic team or win the Olympic trials or win the New York City or Boston marathons. I'm daydreaming different scenarios that could potentially, like, knock on wood, could happen one day. But those were just like runs, like 26-mile runs by myself where I just had to waste some time with like thoughts and everything like that. But it also comes to more visualization as well. Which I learned in college from a stress management teacher, like just using visualization to kind of project yourself out of body more or less to kind of be able to take the pain away and the doubt away. And, you know, having good mantras and positive self-talk help with that quite a bit as well. But for myself, like just going back and finding— for me, it wasn't a mantra, it was just like counting or or looking at splits and times. If I start falling off pace, like okay, if I keep this next mile or the next 6 miles to go, if I still stick on 5:15 pace, I'm gonna run a PR, I'm gonna be under this goal time. So having, when the pain or the fatigue starts setting in and I start slowing down, having secondary or tertiary goals to fall back upon from there. And then my last step, before just crashing out, it's always just like I just started counting my steps. So just, I forget about everything else, like okay, it's going to be 450 steps until the next mile mark. So I just, with this leg I'll count to 100, and then this leg I'll count to 100, and then just carries me through the next mile. So different tactics, which I've heard a couple people, very few, count their strides as well, but yeah.

Yeah, another great question. And yeah, I'm doing this all the time because like I'm fortunate to be around a lot of runners of your caliber and then a lot of runners like, you know, who look up to runners of your caliber and like, and just what I love about, you know, just hearing like you describe like what's going on inside your head, you difficult moments is that like you're human, you know, you might have like achieved more than most of us ever will just by the numbers. But, you know, you put your pants on one leg at a time, just, just, just like the rest of us.

I try to assume. Yeah.

So like, you know, the stuff like the mental stuff, it's not all genes and hard work. It's also just like what you got going on up here.

Yeah.

And that is like more malleable, you know. So I love it, you know, just hearing runners at the true pointy end of the spear just say like, here's what's going on inside my head, because like, you know, some version of that can be going on inside our heads and it's really helpful, you know? Yeah. Like it worked for you. I'm sure you've had disappointments, you had moments when you let yourself down, but by and large, like your brain wasn't your enemy. Your limiter.

Right, right. It was, yeah, using those tactics, it was more of a distraction from the pain. And I've heard of, actually was just listening to a podcast where Bob Odenkook was talking, and he would do like plays and skits and whatever, like a live theater, and he would have his lines saying, but he's also going through his grocery list in his head the entire time because he has his lines memorized, he has his actions, his facial, everything going, but he's distracting himself with like his grocery list and everything. Just a lot of mental games that everybody in every environment play.

Oh, yeah. So we need to wrap this up.

Okay.

Yeah. So it's just kind of like, it's just like, yeah, just, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Food Genie.

What's your favorite running book? Oh, right now I'm reading Lauren Fleshman, her book. Matt has some books. Did you know Matt has some books? Are they on the bookshelf?

Word!

So I'm reading Lauren Fleshman right now. I'm actually really liking it because it gives me like more into the mental space of like the female philosophy of things. And she was a really good runner, like locker runner-up, national NCAA, like third place I think was her best, and like US championship on the track in the 5K as well. But like the struggles that she had with both eating and just like everything else that goes into that. Yeah. Men, womanly body things. Yeah. Just stuff that, you know, I'm going to have a daughter soon, so I'm going to have to figure that stuff out as well.

Yeah. Good answer. Yes, it is a good book.

Yeah. I haven't finished yet. Reading. Long pastime these days. It's hard for me to finish a book.

Yes, reading is fundamental. All right, so that's it for episode number whatever of Dream Run Camp Live. Thanks so much, Nick Arseniaga, 4-time 2:11 marathoner. You gonna hang out for some mystery meat?

Sure, it smells like something's cooked. Thanks for having me for this, but yeah, hopefully we'll be back to be in the studio audience one day. Right on. That's gonna be fun.