Chris Goode: What Makes a Good Coach, Running Regrets, and Maintaining a Love of Running

title of the show. Um, yeah, this is like a super exciting time at Dream Run Camp. Not only did we have Coach Chris Goode with us—

uh, thanks for having me, man—

right on this evening, but we had mirrors installed in the gym in Dream Run Camp. And, uh, you know, this was at customer request. So I like to joke that we have a suggestion box, which is actually the garbage bin over there. In the kitchen, but we do, we do listen and we're always making improvements here. Super excited about the mirrors. Saw Katie making use of them. Katie here from Denver. We've also got our youngest Dream Runner ever. We, we do not allow minors, unaccompanied minors, to come to DreamRun Camp, but Matthew here from Vicksburg, Mississippi is 18 years and 4 months. Yeah. So that's pretty darn young. Yeah. And really loving his youthful energy and like, yeah, it makes me want to live a very long time just to see, just to see like what this guy does. Anyway, so we've got Lauren Clement behind the camera and thank you, Lauren. We have Loaded Mash I don't know why I say mashed. Loaded baked potatoes.

Well, you got to mash them to put them back in, right?

Yeah.

Is that how it works?

Yes.

You're not wrong.

Loaded baked potatoes on tap. You're going to hang around?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And maybe a second pilsner if you're good.

Yes. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Just being real.

Cool. So Yeah, I tend to fixate on names, so we're going to start this Q&A and questions are welcome from anyone watching live, but also from the people present. So at any time, don't hesitate to speak up. It's meant to be a dialog, though I tend to dominate just because I'm a very curious person. Sure. So yeah, no shortage of questions for me. But like, yeah, so I was— yeah, I was like, I was on your website recently. And what is it? What is your tagline? Like, I'll help you run good or something?

Yeah. Start running good.

Start running good. Yes.

Yeah. I use that from time to time. Sometimes I take it off because I'm like, this sounds silly, but I don't know. I feel like my last name is a bit of a blessing and a curse. I think growing up, all the puns I had to endure from like teachers and stuff like that always kind of got my goat, but I think I learned to embrace it.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. So one of those things you have to— I think if you, if you can survive the onslaught, you end up like, well, branding it.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. In a way. But I like it. Yeah. I have a, I have a book titled How Bad You Want It. And like, there's a grammatical error in that title. Should have been, how badly do you want it? But like, I would have just sounded like, I don't know, like an egghead, I think. So, you know, I definitely had like a little bit of, you know, like a slight qualm about going with it, but I went with it and it was fine.

Anyway, I think that rolls off the tongue better. How bad do you want it versus how badly do you want it?

Yeah. And, uh, and your tagline rolls off the tongue.

Thank you.

It's okay to say good instead of well. Right.

Yeah, exactly.

It's how we talk in the locker room.

Right, right. I've thought about it sometimes. I'm like, no, start running good. It's like, do people want to be just good? Like, no, they probably want to be great, right? But unfortunately, I'm not Chris Great, so that's just how it is. Yeah.

All right, rim shot there.

Right. Yeah.

Yep. So yes, I approve. Like, yeah, because like branding goes beyond the literalness of what you're saying.

Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious, just as someone who's like kind of a little bit on a parallel path in some ways, you know, like when you do like, like, like you're drawn to coaching and then You know, and then, but you're, you know, for a lot of coaches it's like, I just, I love coaching, I'm good at it, like I'm not a business person, right? But in, in, in our environment, um, you know, unless you like just do this, the, well, not just do, unless you like do the school or club track, then you actually are kind of an entrepreneur. Yeah, you know, and like if you're gonna, even if like your, your heart is really in the coaching side and just you happen to have a little bit of a savvy for business. Like if you can operate as a competent entrepreneur, then your chances of like being able to deliver as a coach are greater. So like what did that look like for you?

You know, it's still a work in progress. If I'm being honest, I think that's the side of it that's always been kind of difficult for me. 'Cause I think like you said, a lot of coaches who run their own coaching service, at the end of the day, we just wanna coach, right? But I think just as time has gone on, just like anything else, just trial and error, putting yourself out there, trying to heed advice from people who are in that space as well has helped a lot. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I say I have, like, I wouldn't consider myself like a natural entrepreneur. Yeah, but it's something I've been doing for a while and I feel like I have— I'm continually growing at it. So yeah.

Yeah. Well, I am also not a natural entrepreneur.

Right.

But like, I don't know, I kind of consider myself living proof that like, like If you are competent in your core skill, and you're also determined, and you are capable of learning, then you can bootstrap. You have to get a little bit lucky, I think. But I think you can bootstrap your way to making it look like you knew what you were doing.

Yeah, definitely. I think one of the challenges for me, or at least a challenge that I had in my mind. Now, at the end of the day, you could always say like these are just things that we build up in our own minds as being obstacles that aren't really that big of an issue. But my thing is I'm like, a lot— I'm not like— I was never like a pro runner. I didn't have this like, you know, notable status or something like that. So always in the back of my mind, there's like this kind of voice. It's like, well, why would anyone want to be coached by you, right? Just like a regular guy. But, um, I do think in many ways though that actually kind of lends itself to what I do.

Yep.

Um, because I do feel there's a level of relatability there that I'm able to capture a little more. So, um, yeah, I mean, and then my own running, I mean, I, I did run in college, um, and I was kind of laughing at the, uh, post you guys made about like, uh, his like elite running background. I felt very flattered. I don't know if I'd call myself an elite runner, but others would. Yeah, like there's levels to it, right?

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I mean, I did run in college, um, but I think grand scheme of things, I just never really felt like I was quite at that like superstar level. Um, I mean, because I wasn't man. Competition, good reason not to feel like it. But, um, I, I think as time went on though, I kind of, like I said, embraced that like sort of more, uh, everyday person kind of, um, kind of vibe, you know?

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, uh, not that long ago, um, a colleague of mine, Brad Culp, who, uh, he's like a triathlon journalist, uh, in connection with like some something he was working on, he, for whatever reason, we can't— we communicate through Twitter.

So I have friends that I talk to on Snapchat and I don't use Snapchat for anything else.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, it's their preferred method of communication. So yeah, so I don't mess with it.

Yeah. So Brad asked me on Twitter, like, like, can you, can you give me some examples of like, you know, top-level running coaches who weren't runners. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And like, it was like a lot of names. Like, I'm just like, oh, there's one. Oh yeah, oh yeah, so-and-so. And then like I had to do a little bit of Google, like so-and-so. A lot of the— Yeah.

I'm sorry to cut you off. I was going to say a lot of the ones that I really like their style are ones that weren't runners. Like, uh, like David Rudisha's coach wasn't a runner. Um, Sebastian Coe's coach, of course, his dad wasn't a runner. Um, and I remember there was a documentary about Sebastian Coe that I really liked to watch growing up, and, uh, one of the things he said was like, people always criticize like my dad because he's like writing these workouts and they say he wasn't a runner, he doesn't know how hard these are. And he's like, I look at that as an advantage that are like so hard.

Um, but Yeah, um, but you know, the point being, like, you know, it's really just happenstance that a lot of good runners become coaches, right? I mean, just look at it, like, what comes first? Well, the running, right? You know, like, almost everyone starts running before they can— they have any opportunity to start coaching.

Totally.

It's like, well, I'm 12, and I'm going to be your coach. It's like, no, you're not, right? You know, it's like, but I'm really good. I broke a national record. Yeah, but you're 12. Exactly. Okay. So like, you know, the running comes later and like, and if you're really good at running, guess what comes with that reputation?

Exactly.

And so like, and then, you know, your career ends and you have no plan. You're like, what do I do? It's like I could, I could get into real estate or I could coach, right? And it's like, okay, fine, that, that makes a ton of sense. But like, it actually remains to be seen whether or not you suck at coaching. Like, we know you were really good at running, but it's, it's not the same thing. It's just, it's just totally not.

Yeah, that is definitely a distinction I wish more people knew. And not to, to slight anybody who is an athlete who decided to go into coaching, because I do believe that, you know, having experience as an athlete can lend itself to coaching, uh, very well in many cases. But, um, they're not one of the same, you know. So that's, uh, yeah, not always the case. And in fact, there's even a lot of athletes who are so talented that they would get, you know, world-class doing just about anything. So it's like saying that I did this and now this will work. It's like, yeah, it doesn't always work like that.

Yeah. Yeah, um, so, uh, rewinding to the beginning, uh, how did you find running, or how did running find you?

Yeah, um, well, I started running, uh, my freshman year of high school. Um, basically I was moving schools from my area, so I went to public schools in my little suburb that I lived in. And where are we then? Oh, uh, kind of Sacramento area of California. And the suburb that I lived in was about like 20, 30 minutes away depending on traffic. And I went to an all-boys Catholic school that was in Sacramento. So I would have to commute. And going into high school, I just didn't really know anybody. So I, of course, joined to like meet some people, but also my mom was like, you have to do an extracurricular activity. And I was a pretty inactive kid at that point. I didn't really do much. And I think it was like either cross-country or chess club. And I was like, okay, I'm like, we're gonna do cross-country. And the thing is though, it's like my only exposure to running at that point. I had never really even like seen a cross-country race or a track meet or anything. All I knew about was basically like the kind of casual running groups that you would see at like running stores or something like that. So I thought, I was like, oh, we're just gonna like get together and go run. It's like, you know, nothing, nothing crazy. Yeah, how hard could it be? And, um, I mean, like, rude awakening for sure in terms of like, I think my first day of practice I was just like in awe of how fast some people could be.

Yeah.

And, um, And then we had our first race, and then I had that whole experience all over again where I was just like, oh my God, like, I just couldn't believe how fast people could be. I actually remember, um, we did like a team inner squad, and like, as soon as the gun went off, everybody takes off, and, um, I'm like looking around, I'm like, are we gonna be going this fast the whole time? You know, I'm like, um, because And some of them did, you know. Yeah, I was just, you know, trying to go out with the seniors. And I mean, that was definitely a rough first race, but it was— I don't know, it was one of those things that just really caught the bug for it. We had a really supportive coaching staff and good team culture and everything. So I don't know, I just wanted to be good, you know.

Yeah.

And I was like, For a while, like a lot of people, the initial first few months were really rough because I just had no background in it at all. But kind of started to hit my stride by the end of cross-country season. And then I was like, finally got a taste of going from being like the back of the races to kind of towards the middle to being like, oh shoot, I'm kind of towards the front now. You know, like they say with everything, success, you know, brings success. So it got more fun the more or the better I did.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Then you reinvest.

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Did— was an initial seed planted for like your future coaching at that point? Like I was talking with this guy, Matthew, day. He's like, yeah, I was basically the coach of my high school team when I was in the 10th grade. Is it 11th? Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, like captain of the team, you know, just like a coach who was just not knowledgeable.

Yeah.

Of the sport. And so like, that happens, right?

Yeah. Um, I didn't have that problem. My, my coach was a very, very knowledgeable guy and, um, uh, still very successful. Um, I, I found that when I did start high school, there was such a rich tradition of distance running at the school I went to that it actually almost kind of skewed my perception of like what was good and what wasn't.

Yeah, I remember— what was it?

So it was Jesuit High School.

Yeah, in California. Yeah, famous.

Yeah. So, uh, and all this I had no idea when I started high school, right? Um, but yeah, I mean, I remember like on summer training days talking to some, uh, some guys who, who had, uh, graduated and were coming back to train with the team over the summer, and we were talking about, uh, getting a scholarship to run, right? And they're, they're saying like, oh yeah, like getting scholarships easy, just run like 15:30 or whatever, right? It's like, it's like just, just break, uh, just break 9:10. And I'm like You know, I'm like 15, I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, that's all I gotta do. Now, of course, you know, that wasn't as easy as I thought. I didn't end up doing that. But, um, but I mean, yeah, just to make an all-time list at our school, I mean, I, I ran like— I was looking the other day because I was showing a co-worker, um, I ran like 4:24 for the 1600, and I want to say that I'm like I might barely be inside the top 50 on our all-time list.

Oh wow.

Yeah, so it's, uh, yeah, definitely it's kind of different perception there. But, um, to go back to your, to your question, um, coaching there was obviously very, very solid, um, but I did feel like in some ways I, I was able to be in kind of a leadership role because when I was running there, I was one of the better guys on the team. And I think that, you know, you kind of just find yourself in those roles where when that is you, you want to look out for the other guys on the team too and kind of help bring them along.

So yeah, and if there's a good culture, then like the team actually matters to you, right?

Yeah, exactly.

You definitely, you're a number one, but you actually genuinely I mean, I had this experience as well, like, all right, well, shoot, I'm a junior, I'm a senior. We were state champions last year. It's like, I want to do that again. And it's like, it's kind of like I, I feel like I have to be a leader to maximize the chances of that actually happening.

Totally. Yeah. Funny thing is, I mean, when I went to, to Jesuit, my 4 years there, probably as it happened, were our least successful years of, you know, the history of the school in cross-country and track.

What year?

Or distance running, I should say.

What years were they?

2009 to 2013 was, was my 4 years. And again, I mean, still pretty good just by team standards, but comparatively to the, you know, state championship teams and stuff like that. So like when I was a senior, we hadn't made it to state in a couple of years and that was like a big deal for us to not make it, you know. So it was kind of like That was like the big push my senior year of really trying to bring everyone along and try to get a solid 7 to make it. And we did. So, so it was, it was good. But yeah, that's great.

Yeah, that sounded like the end of your answer. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. Questions from the group? Yep. Not yet. T1 up. I would like to pause for a brief commercial break.

Oh, sure.

So come here. I think that this is— we haven't introduced her yet. Yeah. So Dream On Camp now has a mascot. This is Clementine, and she will be here when you come to Dream On Camp. So a nice addition. I know not everyone loves dogs. But who couldn't love this, this little pooch here? Clementine, early birthday gift from my wife, Taki, and I'm enjoying her quite a lot as well. Matthew got off to a rough start with Clementine. No fault of Matthew's. She has behavioral issues, but don't let that dissuade you. They'll be cured by the time you get here. So yeah, this next portion of the program is brought to you by Mountain Girl Rescue, who, and also hat tip to Lauren Clement, who, behind the camera there, who found Clementine for us. So yeah, you can get back to, at ease, at ease, soldier. You can get back to what you were doing. Yeah, and so one thing, I mean, one of my, it's just weird. I've obviously had a terrific life if this is one of my biggest regrets, but one of my biggest regrets One of my biggest regrets is not running in college, you know, because, like, okay, I mean, I loved it. I mean, I loved running. My dad, my dad ran, um, and I just loved it. Um, but I just kind of became a headcase, burnt out, quit.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I, I, I chose a college like 50% because it had a great running program, and then I didn't run there, and they had a great coach, and I knew people who did run there. I didn't think I would ever get back into it. I did, and then I looked back like, what was that? What'd she do?

Just nipped.

What's that?

He just nipped at me.

Oh, oh no. Yeah, yeah, this one. Jesus, got to work on that.

Yeah, so, uh, I got you though. Yeah, I, I had kind of a similar, uh, college running experience. I think there's there's a lot that, um, I don't know, I don't, I don't want to say that like I have regrets where I'm like, like bitter about it because I'm not, but like looking back when I'm like, if I could do something differently, I probably would have. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Yeah. Um, but at the end of the day, I did meet my wife that way, so I wouldn't change anything for that reason.

Are you listening? What's her name?

Melissa.

Melissa.

She might be. I told her that it was going to be live. Yeah, but Yeah, so, uh, yeah, no, but I mean, I— same thing, very, um, it's a lot of stress in college, I think. And that's, I know, the case for a lot of college athletes. And I, I think it just made, made running more of a chore than, uh, something I enjoyed.

So, yeah, well, that's— I mean, that's the thing though, for— in, in my case, like, I went to, uh, Haverford College, like a tiny little Division III school. No, it's Pennsylvania, like on the main line, very close to Villanova. And so a D3 school, but they were like a D3 powerhouse. And, you know, and, and I was aware of because I had an older brother who ran who was 3 years older than me. And I was aware that like at the D1 level, it can just be kind of a meat grinder. It's like you're on scholarship. We need immediate results.

Sure.

And you're— we're going to race you to death. And like, it just like athletes weren't really developed. Um, and Haverford had a reputation. They had a really great coach, Tom Donnelly, um, who had, you know, I mean, we had like the first Division III sub-4-minute miler ever. Um, yep, Carl Paranya. Uh, Seamus McGeillicutt was there when I was there. He, you know, He, uh, I mean, that was back in the day when like they would do the Division III cross-country championships and then the D1 was like 2 days later.

Okay.

And the winner of D3 could run D1 if they wanted to. Wow. And Seamus finished All-American in the D1 national championship 2 days after winning the D3 championship. Yeah, like, like some, some like absolutely badass runners, like went to Haverford. Like, yeah, the, the coach also coached, um, like some of the, like, uh, like top Irish milers, like, uh, um, Eamon Coghlan. No, no, Mark, uh, Marcus O'Sullivan. Okay, not even— I got you, Marcus O'Sullivan. Okay, you know, so it's like, I mean, like, I really missed out, you know, because like I would not have had the pressure. Like, it was Division III. Like it was not a pressure cooker, right? It was a place where like B-level talents like me could just be like, have 4 years of like, like really solid supportive development. And like, that's what I missed out on.

Totally. Yeah, I got you.

There's no question there.

Yeah, you've got me rethinking my decision to not run cross-country collegiately.

Yeah, I would try it still. Because I mean, I ended up, uh, like, I ran for my college for a little bit, um, after a couple seasons decided it wasn't for me, and I still had eligibility, but, um, I foregoed it, um, but I was glad I did it, you know. I was glad that I tried. So yeah, I'll try it out still. Yeah, yeah, or do club at least. The club, that— the thing about that, if your school has a good club team it's like you get the college, like, running experience without all the pressure, you know? Um, because if your club is like, you know, somewhat serious, you can still go and race in the college meets and stuff like that. Yeah, obviously not like nationals, things like that, but, uh, yeah, I mean, you still get college competition. So, yeah, yep.

Uh, but, you know, the thing I remind myself of when I go down regret lane That's true. Is, you know, like, like, take my current situation, you know. All right, I'm 53 years old. I've had long COVID since, since 2020. I haven't raced since before the pandemic. I haven't been healthy enough to. And like, you know, finally, like, I'm like just being able to actually be a runner again. Again. And I went and signed up for the Javelina 100. Wow. 100 kilometers.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, just like— and how long did you prepare? At the time I signed up for it, like midnight January 1st, like, like when registration opened, like I was like right there with my credit card.

Okay.

And at the time I was not running at all because I was not able to run at all, like physically unable to run. I'm like, I'll figure it out. And lo and behold, like You know, things are going pretty well.

Yeah.

But it's like, it's just amazing. Like, I think you might have, like, gotten the vibes from me today. Like, I kept saying, like, these are, like, very early days of a comeback, but, like, like, I am so hungry, you know? And, like, you know, the people I know who, you know, were, you know, the top runners in my state when I was in high school and went on, they did the 4 years of college running and then they tried to, like, make the Olympic trials and the marathon or whatever after college, like, they're not as hungry as I am at 53. They just aren't, you know. And so you have to kind of look at it that way too. Like, you know, it's— running is always there for you. And like, yeah, like, you can, you can pick the narrative back up again and just like try to like write like an awesome ending or an awesome next chapter.

Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of trying to get back into it right now. I've, uh, I mean, shoot, since college I've been so up and down with it, and my focus definitely did shift to coaching versus like my own running. And then the past couple years, honestly, um, I've actually gotten like way more into basketball. So that's kind of been my exercise, uh, lately, which is funny because like I feel like so many people— like running is going through like another, um, boom right now. It really is a huge trend.

Yeah.

And so many people are going from like, oh, I played team sports when I was younger and now I'm a runner, I'm kind of like, I didn't do anything but run my whole life and now I want to play like team sports. I'm like, this is actually really fun. Um, so I've been doing that a lot. But, um, yeah, so the last— I pretty much been like getting back to running consistently just in the last couple weeks. So, um, I don't know, I'm, I'm kind of in the same boat where I have I just turned 29, so I have some like goals I want to try to hit before I'm 30. And then yeah, we'll just, we'll see what happens.

Yeah, yeah, shoot. I mean, yeah, you can really, I mean, the only tragedy is like when you feel obligated to do something that's not in your heart to do it. But like when your heart drives what you pursue athletically, then yeah, it can be absolutely fine. Yeah, 29. I mean, like, that's, that's almost exactly the same age, you know, my— when I picked it back up again. And so if, like, everything, you know, I had some good races in high school, but, like, almost everything, like, I'm proud of personally, like, athletically, came, like, way after your age.

Okay, I got you.

You know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't know, I ran my first, like, 10K road race when I was 12.

Oh wow.

PR'd at 49.

Whoa. Okay, there you go.

Yeah, and it's not like I ran zero in between. I ran a lot in between. Yeah, yeah. So like, if you just don't put limitations like on yourself and you, you're just like, you just give yourself permission to like just do what you feel like doing.

Exactly. I, I feel like I'm not in a, a place in my life anymore where I feel like I want to force myself to run, you know. Um, and like, you know, when I was running in college, there were of course days where you, you had to do it whether you want to, whether you felt like it or not, right? Um, but now I'm kind of just like, I don't have to do this. So like, if I'm not enjoying it, um, then I won't, right? You know. And, uh, I think lately that, uh, you know, drive, hunger to get out, that desire has been coming back like for real. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna lean into that a little bit, you You know, um, yeah, that's— I don't know, I feel like there's a— you see so much nowadays where it's like people think you almost are like supposed to hate it, you know, like you have to like torture yourself to be this, to like to get something out of it. And I don't really, I don't really see it that way, at least not in my, my context.

So yeah, yeah, well, I, I'd love to linger on that, that last point actually, because like for me, Phil philosophically, and, and, well, you just got here, but like, I mean, you've gotten a sense of this in terms of like my approach to coaching, which is— I mean, it's just an extension of my approach to being an athlete— is sure, like, the more you're enjoying it, the better you're going to perform.

Absolutely.

Like, yeah, I mean, like, if you're absolutely— if you're not competitive, well, that's a different thing. But like, if you're competitive then maximize your enjoyment of the sport because like nothing, nothing will motivate you to invest more energy and effort into the sport than loving it. You know, you're like even loving the hard.

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I would say I'm very much of that philosophy where I think when I, when I'm working with someone we, you know, we, we do try to make a conscious effort to make sure that, um, it is something they're enjoying, you know, and, and not just checking a box, not just going out doing it because they have to. Because, um, I mean, shoot, even in my own experience looking back to when I was running in college, I, I think when I was in college I was probably fitter than I'd ever been, um, from a pure fitness standpoint, but I was so just honestly like unhappy that my races were suffering, you know, because I just get to the starting line, I'm like, I don't want to be here.

Yeah.

So yeah, I mean, enjoying it is a very, very underrated part of it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Especially because like we're choosing to do this. We're like, you know, like nobody's— I hope nobody's forcing anyone to. So I don't know. You never know.

But nightmare run camp, right? Exactly.

Exactly. Right.

You will run.

Right. That's over in Kingman, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's— I mean, it's, it's actually like scientifically validated, like, you know, what we are agreeing on just based on experience. I mean, it's true. Totally empirically.

I saw a thing I follow Steve Magnus on a lot of, uh, social media, and he's always posting little scientific nuggets that are cool. And one of them I remember is, um, something about how like going out and getting a beer with friends can be like just as good for recovery as like sleeping for like an hour or something like that. I don't know exactly what it is, but it's like, um, just spending time with people you like and doing things that you enjoy, like actually like boost your recovery from like a biological standpoint.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny. Uh, so, you know, just before you got here, we, we do something here, uh, pretty much every day at 4 in the afternoon called Coach's Office Hours. And like, I'll just like riff on— it's just a chance for whoever's here with me to geek out on running. And this one was, the theme of it was Everything Matters. And it's the idea that it's helpful to have, and this is what we're really talking about here, like to have an ecological perspective on athletic performance and look at the athlete in their total context.

Definitely.

Yeah. And it just, when it feels like you know, and most of us who've been runners for a while, we've had this experience when you feel like you're just floating downstream and like your, your entire environment is just pulling you in the direction you are already swimming. Like that's, that's when magic happens. Absolutely. Like, yeah. So ignoring the broader context, you do that at your peril, which is why Matthew's moving to Flagstaff.

Oh yeah. Awesome.

I'm going to need a real job for that.

Okay.

All right.

We'll talk. Yes. I need a new cabana boy. I'm going to lifeguard. There's context for that, by the way.

It's not what it sounds like.

Whoa. Yeah, you just never know. And we don't edit either, you know. If it's out of your mouth, it's like on your permanent record. Yeah, yeah, just so— yeah, I'd love to hear you just say like another word or two about like, I don't know, like your philosophy of coaching. So like, I just feel like, shoot, you're 29, Like, for me, um, like, I just— I, I knew I would suck at coaching at 29, like, because, like, it was just the Matt show. It's like me, me, me, me, me, me. Like, I just, I just couldn't care enough about other athletes to be a good coach at 29. So, like, you know, if you're, if you're pulled toward it, um, like, you know, what is it? You know, what, what is the nature of the pull?

I think, well, I mean, to be completely honest, I mean—

No, don't be completely honest.

I'm going to lie. Never mind. No, the high school I went to was a Catholic high school, and I'm a practicing Catholic. And a lot of what we believe is trying to be men for others. That was our slogan of our school. I, I, you know, I brought up David Rudisha's coach, who's the, um, who's the priest. And I remember there's a quote from him that I really loved, and I kind of apply it to myself in a way. Um, obviously I'm not the same sort of context, but, um, or basically, you know, he said, I have this gift and this is what I can do to help other people.

Um, I'm— is this Brother O'Callum? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, I feel like I do have a gift in a sense to be able to connect with people, and, um, I love running and, uh, you know, I geek out about it in terms of how to train, things like that. And I feel like a combination of those things and just a desire to, uh, you know, just see the betterment of others is, is kind of what drives me to it. When it comes down to like working with someone one-on-one, I think I do try to look at like what's going to be best for that person in whatever their— that context is, you know. They say all coaching is an experiment of one, right? So that's how I kind of try to look at it. And while there are fundamentals, obviously, I try to always just keep in mind that, yeah, everybody's different and What might work for one person might not work for another person, and so on and so forth. I'm kind of rambling now, but I think you get what I'm saying.

I do. I do. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You went to Jesuit. I see the—

Yes. This is actually a birthday present from my wife just a few days ago.

Oh, wow. Sweet.

Yeah. I told her I wanted to kind of have something to keep on me as a reminder of my values and whatnot.

So yeah, so have you met Brother O'Callum? I have not, because I have.

Oh wow, okay.

Yeah, it was like, like one of those, like, I don't know, like weird— I mean, you know, because like I'm a geek, like I knew exactly who this dude was. I mean, like forget just David Rudysia, like, I mean, it's like a huge— whole school. Yeah, yeah, at, uh, St. Patrick's, uh, in Itan. And I was there in 2015. 2015, and I was with a guy who'd grown up in Kenya who was like showing me around. He's like, so this is St. Patrick's. And like, we were at the front gate. And so this old man starts like walking toward us, like toward the gate. Like, that's Brother O'Callaghan. Yeah.

Yeah.

So you're just like, it was like, oh, literally, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. It was, it was incredible. And like, you know, the other people— there were other people in my group that had no freaking idea who this dude was. And I'm just like, well, that is the cool thing, right?

Is that he is kind of so unassuming. Yes. Like, you wouldn't think by looking at him, they're like, oh, this guy's coached like a bunch of world record holders, you know? Yeah.

I mean, he was clearly enjoying like my effusiveness, but, but yeah, like, was like— I didn't see his head swelling about it. Yeah, but yeah, like, that's exactly the reason I wasn't coaching at 29, is like that, that service mindset. Like, I think, you know, the, the, the best coaches— uh, was it you and I who were talking about this? Like, you know, the— there's two ways to— two ways to— yeah, we were yesterday. There were two ways to measure a coach's effectiveness. Like, one is like performance, like wins and losses, and the other is like, how does the athlete feel about the coach? Like, how is the athlete as a person impacted totally by the coach? And, you know, yeah, I mean, my conviction is— I'm gonna ride this horse to the end— is, is like, like, you want to put the emphasis on making the athlete feel great about you, you know, as a coach, and then as Bill Walsh titled his memoir, the score takes care of itself.

Yeah, totally. I'm, of course, as cliché as it sounds, I'm a big John Wooden fan and the Pyramid of Success. And I think that encapsulates that whole idea, is that you have these underlying values and they build on each other. Are you going to be a great person because you're an athlete? Not necessarily. But does being a great person help you be a great athlete? Definitely. You know, so. Yeah.

Yep. Amen. Yes. I'm going to give you one last opportunity. You've been like, this is really great. Well. We're all going to be hanging out having loaded baked potatoes after this.

I'm looking forward to it.

Not mashed, baked. Yeah. So yeah, this is not your last opportunity.

I'd like to touch on that. You know, great people make great athletes. Something I've noticed, especially back home in Mississippi, you know, there's not many people who are 18 running ultras. There's a decent number out there, but it's kind of uncommon. And so a lot of the guys that I run with, you know, are good, you know, 10, 20 years older than me, and I've noticed they're all really, you know, just great people. And I'm noticing about the running community that typically the better they are as a human, the better they are.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

You know, a wonderful experience to be surrounded by people like that.

Totally, totally. Yeah, and I feel like you do see that a lot in the running community, especially kind of— I guess there's, again, cliché, but there's that camaraderie of we're all going through this, like really hard thing together so we can kind of relate a little bit better. Um, I mean, and I feel like in running as well, you don't necessarily see as much of like the, like, bravado, like machismo, kind of like I'm better than you kind of thing. It's out there, you know, and, and to a certain extent, I mean, that stuff does make sports fun to a certain extent, as long as it's like respectful or within the parameters of what you're doing. But, um, yeah, excuse me, it's definitely just a different vibe for sure.

Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you're having that influence, uh, uh, at your age, and you're— you're gonna pay it forward, you know, two decades from now, right? Three decades from now. Yeah. Bring a child up right the way they should go. I don't know. It's in the Bible somewhere.

Oh, yeah. We don't have kids yet, but hoping for soon, though. That's kind of the plan the next couple of years.

Yeah. Yeah, but we have a new dog.

I was aware of this.

You're trying to steal my thunder.

Oh, Clementine. Nothing is. It's all just in the planning stage right now. So why not?

Okay, we've broken some news here at, uh, Dream Run Camp Live. All right, so I'm ready for loaded, uh, baked potatoes.

Love baked potatoes. Mashed.

Um, thank you so much.

Really enjoyed this conversation.

Appreciate it. Oh, and don't be a stranger. Yeah, definitely.

Always welcome here. Thank you.

Right on.