Live From Dream Run Camp: AJ Gregg

All right, bear with us, there's a puppy in the house. Welcome to episode number whatever of Live from Three Run Camp, presented by 80/20 Endurance. Uh, we have a puppy in the house, 4-month-old poodle named Rufus. This puppy is a companion of AJ Gregg, good friend of mine and strength coach extraordinaire, chiropractor by initial training. Come on down, AJ. Um, I don't know why everyone's on the floor. It would be cool if you— oh, because there's a puppy. Uh, all right, yeah, we're totally winging it. Uh, it's the Rufus show. Hopefully we'll, uh, get him on camera at some point. And, uh, so yes, uh, AJ, um, I got to know him back in 2017 when I had the opportunity to to spend a summer in Flagstaff, Arizona, where I am now at Dream Run Camp, uh, training with the NAZ elite professional running team. And AJ is, is, was, and is, um, a strength coach for the team. And I developed a profound respect for him. I benefited tremendously, um, from his expertise and attention and care. Um, there he is, there he is!

This is Rufus, everyone.

Um, and, uh, thank you, Lauren. This is going to be fun. Um, welcome, AJ. I wasn't quite finished with my introduction, but I just decided to cut it off and get down to brass tacks. Um, thanks for coming over. Um, we'll just actually re— what we'll, we'll start in the now and rewind, so So why Rufus?

Why the name Rufus?

No, why adopt a dog at this time in your life and name him Rufus?

I adopted a dog at this time in my life for companionship, and I named him Rufus because Winston Churchill had a poodle named Rufus.

Right on.

That's kind of where that comes from.

Are you an admirer of Winston Churchill?

I've read about Winston Churchill. Yeah. Yeah.

But he's not like your number one personal hero?

He's not a number one person. Okay. Right. Okay. Fair enough.

Rewinding a little bit more. This will be an elliptical conversation.

I can tell already.

When there's a puppy in the house. That's just how it's going to go. Um, you know, so I got to know you in 2017, uh, and got to know you well. I mean, I, I was constantly on the verge of breaking down during this 13 weeks, and I, I needed someone like you. Um, and then, you know, fast forward 6 years, and it really is exactly 6 years. It's actually— it'll be 6 years tomorrow that I showed up and started my stint as a fake pro runner. You've evolved in that, in that period of time, which is like, you know, it's actually, it, it augments my respect for you because like, for me as a, as a, as a, an endurance coach, I, I pride myself on not standing still. It's like, I'm curious, I'm learning. I don't, I don't assume or project that I have it all figured out. I'm okay with saying I was wrong or I'm better now than I was before.

Before.

You seem very much like that. Tell us about like where you were in your profession at the time I got to know you versus where you are now. And, you know, what was the— what has been the nature of the evolution?

Essentially precision.

The—

many of the movements haven't changed, but the and how they're coached and how they're instructed and the way things are connected is different.

All right. Spell that out. So, so it's not like you've tossed out, you know, what you were doing before and said, like, strength training is bullshit. No, no runner should do it. It truly is like an evolution versus like, like a complete overhaul. And the difference is precision. As you say. So, you know, why is precision important? Like, why, why is, from your perspective, the way you were doing it before not good enough?

The reason what I was doing before I didn't— don't find as, um, uh, it wasn't removing all the leaks or the really finicky small margin of error movement dysfunctions or blocks.

Yeah. So, was it a matter of— I mean, was it sort of like a— was it really a good enough mindset? It's like, oh, I know this is good. I mean, as I have already said, I was benefiting from what you were giving to me, clearly, objectively benefiting. Um, so, you know, was there, was there like a little voice in the back of your head back then that said like, you know, this is good. I know this is good. I'm not doing any harm. Um, but I'm, I'm letting things pass that, that I, I see, but I'm, I'm letting them pass. And then what has changed is that you've stopped giving those things a pass.

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Of maybe comfortable or the balance of coaching with where an athlete's at and, oh, you need to pull back right now and go to something much simpler or less complex. I think there's a timing in that and confusing kind of rehabilitation goals and strength goals at the same time, performance goals, and trying to blend them. So yeah, combination of that. And that also, not to put to— that comes with my own narrative, my own way I do that, instructions to make it simpler. Not on— it was my own fault in instruction.

Right on. So rewinding a little bit further and we'll come back here. How did you start down this path in the first place? For me, It's funny how often this is the case in our own individual life/career narratives. I see the first indications that I was going to do more or less what I'm doing now when I was quite young. Is that the case for you? What were the earliest indications that you were suited to the role that you occupy now?

I don't even know if there were early indications or if there are indications, but I mean, that, that would be, I guess, my own journey in that. I really sought the career because it seemed like something gave me a lot of freedom, and I've always been a creative person, and it seemed like it's being a chiropractor, something you do stuff with your hands, you can do stuff with movement, you manipulate, and that seemed really appealing, as well as having kind of freedom to, um, yeah, diversify, to be more integrated.

Yeah, I mean, well, I imagine that like a passion for fitness and sports fed into that as well. Like you, you enjoyed using your body, testing your body, like, you know, like immersing yourself in natural environments, um, Uh, you know, was that part of it? Like, you know, when I talk about early indications, it's not necessarily like, oh, I had a knack or a gift. It could be just a predilection, like, I like this and therefore I'm going to go further in this direction.

Yeah, there certainly was interested in, uh, people have told me I have the teaching gene. So, so that, uh, yeah, being able to kind of serve in that capacity. And, and provide knowledge has always been something that makes time go by fast. Yeah.

Um, were there any sort of like kind of watershed moments, um, you know, like well before you got to be where you are now? Um, I don't know, just like kind of galvanizing experiences, or even maybe like encountering like a mentor or someone who inspired you that just got you to kind of lock into a trajectory that in retrospect clearly leads to where you are now?

Uh, truly where I'm right now is a lot of self-discovery. There's a lot of information that I've sought out, a lot of knowledge that I've sought out, research that I've done has been to, um, aid in my own body.

Right on. Uh, say more about that.

I've, I have woken up with pain as long as I can remember, more specifically a migraine on my face for the last decade. And so the, um, a lot of changes in the body that I still am figuring out, I've been figuring out, um, and a lot of layers behind that. But essentially my own pain is fueled a lot of a lot of my advances, I guess, in how I serve people.

Yeah.

My exploration across this country's borders is to open for that.

Yeah. So, you know, so you've gone ahead and shared that you have lived with chronic pain for more than a decade.

Yeah. My pain goes way back.

Yeah. Way back. Okay. Way way back. Um, and, and so, you know, when I first got to know you, you, you didn't say a— you didn't say a peep about any of that stuff. And like, I, like, I remember the moment I met you. I describe it in Running the Dream, a book that you're in but haven't read, um, right, which is a story for another day. But, uh, like, I remember like like you just had a presence. It's like AJ's there. And it's like, you know, it's kind of like a, I don't know, like a quiet aura, but, um, you know, got to know you a bit and you like, it started off with like you telling me what, you know, a single leg Romanian deadlift was, um, and led to like really on the spot restaurant recommendations. Um, but not a peep about chronic pain. Um, And for me, you know, like, as the world knows, I have long COVID, like I have chronic illness, not chronic pain, but chronic illness. And like, as soon as like, you know, my life changed in that particular way, like the whole world had to know, like I couldn't, I couldn't possibly keep that inside. Um, you know, for, for you, like, um, like I learned that about you and, um, it kind of makes sense. Like it just kind of lends, it just, you know, it just explains like why you're as passionate about the work that you do as, as you are. But was, you know, was there, was there like, what went, what went behind the decision to, you know, tell me, tell YouTube that you, that you live with chronic pain? Where's, versus, whereas, you know, previously it was just like something that you held inside?

Acceptance, in a sense. Bravery.

Mm-hmm. Was there a, uh, was it, did it feel like more comfortable with sadness? Right on. There's a, there's an authenticity there, right? It's just like, you know, it's like the, the, the, the, the version of me that I allow people to see is the version of me that I experience inside myself every single day. Is that part of it?

Oh no, there's a split there.

Yeah, there's certainly, there's still more Of course, but that's all of us, right? Yeah. But I mean, you know, cause I haven't had exactly that experience, but I've had versions of it. Um, you know, um, you know, my book Life is a Marathon, which Kelly, Kelly, one of the dream runners who's here now sitting on the floor completely unnecessarily, but it's all about the puppy today. Um, Kelly just finished reading my, my memoir Life is a Marathon and that book. You know, I, like, I let— as you can attest, Kelly, like, it's all out there. Like, no, no more, no more skeletons in Matt's closet, or, or my wife Natalia's closet. And that's the real bravery, because she didn't get to control that narrative. Like, I wrote the story, she's in it, and you see my warts, you see hers, um, you know, all of our failings and shortcomings and just our, our full humanness. And it took a lot to get to the point where, like, I was comfortable being that open. Um, but like, once I did, it was like— it's one of those things that's like, it's hard until it's easy, you know what I mean? It is really like— I, like, the thing— the closest analogy I can come up with is when I was in high school and it was like, it was the thing to go to this railroad trestle bridge over a river and jump in. It was like, I don't know, 30 feet or whatever. And like, I'm like, ah, can't do it, can't do it, can't do it, I'm so scared. And then something just happened and I did it. And I'm like, that's so easy. And then I'm like, you know, scrambling back up the side, climbing up the railroad, uh, railroad trestle, jumping off again. Uh, similar experience for you?

No, different. I, I turned I turned 26, I graduated from grad school, moved to Flagstaff, set up practice, start my life. And I woke up July 8th with a migraine that has not gone away. And the search not only for the why and then also the meaning in all of it has been unknown. It hasn't been until the last half of the year where the blankness in AJ— I developed PTSD from a very young age and it progressed to complex PTSD as I grew up. But from a very young age, from some very challenging stuff, I stopped experiencing emotion. And so it wasn't until quite recently where the emotional awareness and expression has been available. So new emotional life, completely mind blown.

Yeah.

You just don't know what you don't know.

Yeah.

And so I grew up and I kind of contrast it to like, there's trauma that we know about and I can go into, and this, I was searching in the dark. And, and, and it wasn't until that stuff started to surface that I, that I could confront it. But yeah, but that, that was, um, in, in the role of being, of being someone who is trying to serve you. And at the same time, like, I always feel like, you know, we all have our stuff. So, so there's, there's my own shame when I talk, when I talk about, about me. And then at the same time, yeah, the, the burden that it may bring into Yeah, yeah.

But it's so often the case that like, you know, when you, when you hold stuff in out of like, you know, like a, like a sense of shame or a fear of shame, it's like, oh, you know, if, if people saw all of me, they would run for the hills. And then so often exactly the opposite happens. Like, especially if you're like a teacher, Kelly's a teacher. Like a coach, you know, like, you know, whatever, you know, you could be like, like a pastor, you could be a therapist. It's like, when people see like, oh, wow, there's a person in there. Like, they're not just knowledgeable, they don't just care, but like, I can relate to this person. Like, you know, do you find that? And it's not as if like, you're like, when you're working with athletes, you're telling your life story, but like, you you know, there's just been like, like, like a personal evolution that has run in parallel with your professional evolution. Have you found that it just, it like, it actually helps you do your job better to just like be where you are as a person now, um, versus where you were?

It enhances the presence. And, um, and I, yeah, I'm learning to, to, uh, bring what I'm feeling into my decision-making. Process too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, cause I mean, like a part of it, I think it's like, if you're going to be effective in a coaching type of role, like a, you know, a trainer, physiotherapist role, whatever, um, clinician of any kind, um, you need to be empathetic. Um, you need, you know, like people need to know you give a shit. Um, and Like, you know, how much attention, how conscious of you are, are you of that dimension of, you know, when you're, when you're working one-on-one with an athlete, um, is that part of, you know, the, uh, the alchemy of the whole thing? Like you're not just looking at movements and manipulating movements and posture and all that stuff, but you're also conscious of the relationship and how you're presenting yourself. How, you know, the athlete is receiving you because it is relational, right? Like it's like it's operating on two different levels at the same time. Are you very like kind of intentional about that dimension of your work?

Always.

Yeah.

Yeah. Sometimes that's, that's even.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, say, say more about that. Yeah.

There are two, two are experience of, of of how we perform, there's how we think, there's how we move, and there's how we feel.

Yeah.

And feeling gets in the way of movement.

Yeah. Are there athletes that you've worked with?

Yeah. Lots of things.

Um, are there athletes that you have had the opportunity to work with for a long period of time where like, because I've certainly seen this in my coaching, it's like, it's why I don't want to coach anyone for 3 weeks or even 3 months, honestly, like 3 years, much better. You know, because like, yeah, you get to know the athlete better on like an X's and O's level because everyone, you know, is physiologically unique, adapts differently to the same stimuli, but also the relationship matures, right? And then like, you're like, oh, now, now we can make some serious headway. Um, have you been, because the nature of your work is a little different from, from mine. Do you have the opportunity to like kind of longitudinally stay with certain individuals, uh, and see an evolution in, in the relationship that feeds into the benefits that they get from your coaching?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You said the, um, my young people, the longest person I've coached is 10 years. And I would say on average, 4 cycles.

That would be like an average. Okay.

Well, shoot.

I haven't coached anyone for 10 years. What's the secret? How do you keep them that long?

They don't get injured.

Right on. Yeah, so well, shoot, that's another question. It's fine. We're super casual. Kelly's phone. By the way, Brian is also here. Brian, you haven't gotten a single shout out yet until now. Um, Brian's on his best behavior. Um, have you seen— and like, I want— well, you're a very honest person, but I'm going to say this anyway. Be completely honest. Um, you know, as your methodology— I mean, you take your craft very seriously, right? And you're, you're a smart guy. And so like You know, like when you change, when you evolve, clearly you're getting better at it. And when you're getting better in the type of role that you serve with athletes, there should be something to show for that. Like you're actually like, you're not just like getting better in a touchy-feely, non-measurable kind of way. Like you're actually getting better outcomes. Are you seeing that, like, you know, like, you know, as you just mature in your profession, like, are you just getting better results with individual athletes?

I like to think so. Yeah. I think this is a sport where injury stops progress. Everyone's getting faster every year. People are making teams, they're placing at the world level. Um, so, and they don't see any reason to change it. In the same sense. So they have that, you know, this, I'm moving forward, it feels right for me, there isn't any blocks. That's not what ever with everyone. I think, I think that the transition to, to, um, to anything new, especially when you're perceiving or working within, within a, at a level where the perceived margin of error is so small, there can be a lot of fear with trying some new things or putting putting yourself into a more vulnerable position to have to execute. So those have been the kind of the two challenges that I've experienced that kind of changed my method.

Yeah. So I mean, you know, obviously like you pay attention to science, you, you know, you learn from science, you apply it, but you're not doing science. You are a clinician. Um, but you know, again, I try to relate what you do to my coaching where it's like, like, how do I measure success? Um, and, and, you know, it's like, it's a little bit quantitative and a little bit qualitative. Um, and maybe a little bit just like, I don't know, it's just a feeling.

There's some simple— there's a lot of simplicity and it takes a lot of pressure off of me with, with where I am right now. Right now, at least I feel very, very comfortable. And for the first time, the hit rate, things seem very much more predictable. And I would kind of equate that to nutrition. If you're somewhere where you're trying to lose weight, your blood sugar's high, you got high cholesterol, you got high inflammation, they're all kind of in one direction. You start doing good things and everything starts going in the right direction. Movement is the same way. And in that sense, the art of it comes more to comes down to more to the instruction and less in terms of the objective. I think the objective is, um, um, pretty sound.

Yeah.

Uh, in terms of the performance goals, right? Um, what is this?

Gross.

Just gonna take Take a little napkin break here.

Mixture of dog saliva and half-digested dog treats. So can you blame— Rufus, everyone. Yeah, one of the things that's different from, you know, from your role with respect to my own is that you work with a lot of world-class athletes, you know, all the way up to world champions. And, but you also work with a lot of everyday athletes. Um, and so, you know, there are some, you know, broad brush strokes differences between the genetic lottery winners and the rest of us. Um, but we're also all human. We're all athletes. Um, so I imagine that when you're at the very pointy end of the spear, you know, working with people who are not just gifted, but are focused, you know, and like are looking for the just tiniest little margins, you know, to go from 4th place to bronze or silver or gold. You know, you're learning, you know, it's like, like you're not just at the limits of individual performance, but of human performance is like, that is a tremendously concentrated learning environment. And so how much of what you learn from working with, with these world-class athletes is translatable that like feed, like how How much, to what degree do Kelly and Brian and Lauren and Amanda over here and I benefit from the work you do with the very best athletes in the world?

I never really thought of it. I'd say greater. I would just, because in terms of that margin, I think it's going to move the needle a little bit more versus someone who's maybe thresholding. And I guess that's also relative too, based on ability level. But otherwise, I think it's, it's, it's a, it's a body. It's, it's, it's, it's, um, yeah, who can put their attention to where they need to in their body to be able to move it right.

But, but, uh, I guess the spirit of my question was like, are there things that you, um, encounter and learn from, from working with, you know, elites that, um,, you know, if you didn't work with them would make you maybe not quite as effective with the everyday? Like, does your exposure to the pointy end of the spear, you know, just teach you things?

Yeah, certainly. Yeah, I learned a lot. Most observable thing is I would say they're exceptionally well at relaxing, really good focus. So I've learned, and this goes both ways, but I think it more goes into an exceptional performer. But that's where you may let them just play and work on something for a while, not say anything rather than keep getting in the way.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I think that word, Well, you know, the way you put it, exceptionally good at relaxing. Um, you know, I don't, I don't coach elite athletes, but I've certainly had a lot of exposure to them. And I see that, um, just like, you know, not just physically, but I mean, you know, it's a trait. Yeah. It's a trait. Um, if you look at things like, um, you know, ground contact time and flight time in running. It's like part of what, you know, you could just like bracket everything else. Like, let's not talk about VO2 max. Let's not talk about economy. Let's just, well, economy ties into ground contact time. But if you just look at like what's different between, you know, the greatest distance runners in the world and the rest of us in terms of like ground contact time and flight time, what they're really optimizing for in that pattern is rest. When you're sailing in the air, you're flying. And so it's really, it's just like if, if you just bounce off the ground, you get to spend more time relaxing, right? Yeah. Uh, so how do you—

so the elites then, in that sense, their ability activate muscles in that torque sense. It's more familiar to them.

Yeah. You know, so to what degree, like, do you have to, you know, there's the born with it. Like, yeah, how do you, it's like, you know, it's like if you, Lauren here is like completely focused on Rufus. Like Lauren has trouble sleeping sometimes. And I've had trouble sleeping sometimes. And like when you're lying in bed and you know, like you have a wake up, you know, it's like, you know, my alarm is set for 5:45 and I have to get up then. And it's, you know, 9:27 now. And I really wish I was asleep now. Like the absolute worst thing you can do to try to make yourself fall asleep is to try to make yourself fall asleep. It's very similar with relaxation, right? It's just like, Relax. So like, you know, how do you, how do you get athletes to be able to benefit? Because it is beneficial. You know, like you just want to not waste energy, like not to be tense when you don't have to be tense. How do you get there?

The ability to relax in the, in the in the context of— we use nervous systems— or calm down the nervous system, so go more, more parasympathetic. That would be referred to as a very low arousal state. And so attention is, is not necessarily focused on any one thing. So if there is an attention, my focus of attention is on to relax, there's a motivation and a drive, and that's arousal. And so to get out of arousal, we must, must move towards something that's more effortless. Now, where's that? Well, let's find that and package it. It's difficult. Um, and that's, and that's why sometimes it just, it's a necessary trait, especially in a performance environment. You may feel relaxed walking around, but then you go into, in the competition, it can completely change. But I found this, just, this is just my observation, is to focus the attention externally would be to focus on the sensation of the breath coming in and out of the nose. It's outside of the body. You feel it coming in, we feel it coming out, takes us outside of the body, takes us out of feeling. That could be a method of it, but I don't think, I don't know if it necessarily can be bottled. In terms of training the body in its rhythmic state or a breathing pattern that would induce that state rather than having to go, I need to cognitively focus on that so I can induce this body state. Rather, the strategy I'm using now is, hey, let's do this body state and the mental state follows right after. So yeah, that seems to be the method of just kind of follow the breath rate or the sensations that are going on or starting to be activated.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I want to underscore what you just said for the benefit of of people listening and watching, like the really, like one of the keys to relaxing. Like if you try to, if you try to relax or if you, if you treat that as like sort of like globally, I need to relax. It doesn't happen. But if you actually have, because, you know, I mean, as an athlete, if you're trying to, you know, push and achieve, like the goal is to not be completely relaxed. It's like to be as relaxed as possible. And, and so sometimes you're floating with it.

Yeah. You're just, yeah. It's like, I, you're, you're, if you're in a pool and if you, if you want to stay afloat and you try to wrestle with the water, you will sink. And so the best thing you can do, given any other experience that's going on, is just let it be there and don't try to change anything and, and keep, keep your quiet eyes on the objective.

Yeah, yeah. So that's where I was going with that. Like, like, you have to focus on something. So if you can make your focus as narrow as possible on what matters the most, that's what allows you to relax, right?

What's important now?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and that's like, that's a, that's a physical thing. Can, can you, can you say a word or two about like how that manifests Either like when you're running or when you are like in the gym trying to do supplementary work that benefits your running, like the role of focus, because you can't focus everywhere all at once. You need a narrow focus on what matters now. Um, so like when you're cueing people, you know, to, to move in ways that, you know, will help them with, with their running, um, like how do you play with focus?

I don't necessarily have like a, um, singular way of playing with focus, but if, if I find that someone is not activating something or is challenged in the way of getting something to, to connect, is something I will— this is in a running context, but yeah, put a lot of attentional focus on that body part. So in a gym or in a clinical environment, that's very helpful because we can get activation, we can get feedback from that area. We have to be careful with that in a performance environment because focusing on the body in a performance environment tends to make that area tight. It's protective. Focus on it, what's going on, we're thinking about it, we're actually using muscles a little bit more as we shift the attention. So that's kind of like something not to do. Most people are like, get out of your body in a performance environment, get into the arena, into that space. So I think it kind of goes, you know, just depends, it depends on the context. Other times, too much relaxation is bad for performance. There needs to be some sort of— some sort of arousal. And then too much arousal is where I say that's where feelings get in the way.

Yes. Yeah. I was randomly reminded of what Kyle Merber said. So he was a retired elite miler and he said he knew he needed to retire when he didn't get nervous before races anymore. That's insufficient arousal. It's like, I'm over it. Over it. Can you— I have 2 more questions for you before— like, anyone in the room who's busy playing with Rufus who would like to ask a question, I'll open it up. But I have a couple more for you. One, like, and so like, you know, the AJ 2.0 that I've been experiencing since, you know, it was like, I know this is not— I accurate, but like there was 1.0 that I experienced when I was with NAZ Elite in 2017, 2.0, who's, you know, the, the, the go-to guy for, um, you know, strength-related stuff for Dream Run Camp. Um, and so like the 2.0 AJ, I've been hearing the word leak and the words leak and leaking a lot. Uh, and it seems like, I think it's a very useful concept. It's like, You know, no, none of us are ever going to know everything, you know, that's not the point. But like when, when you kind of, when you deploy that concept to try to like explain what you're trying to achieve, like for me it was like, I get that. So talk about this concept of, of leaking in, in the running context and why it's bad.

Sure. Immediately comes to mind is I could do a demo with two coffee mugs, beer cans. Let's go with beer.

Go with beer.

You'll have to dump some out or insert glass. But essentially we do that now.

Can we have beer now?

Yeah, for a demo. Yeah, that would be really helpful. Lauren's on it. In a glass, in a glass, 'cause I know.

Sweet. Well, keep talking while my trusty assistant raids the fridge.

Yes, I am still—

okay, all right, we got a— that's a real beer too.

It is. This is a Bell's Oberon.

It's pretty good.

Okay, so, um, so in our body we have a pelvis with a rib cage, and then we have a lumber area. The lumbar area is squishy, okay, and then these are solid. So to make this all connected, we need to make the— he gets it, he totally gets it— we need to make it connected. And so the objective then is to make the core locked so that it doesn't move, and that's stability and stiffness from the center. So this, this pop can is pressurized. We don't need to do a full demo, but we could stand on it. It would hold our weight. It is that strong. Now, when I try to, in any situation, balance it, say if I had some points, because it is weighted, I can predictably balance it well. Go through that, but it is easier. Open it up. Now it is squishy.

And you shook it, so it's foaming. Don't waste it. That's a perfectly good beer.

So when it comes to running, we want the center of mass and the pressure low and in the back. And that's what everyone refers to as, you know, trying to get my hips active and trying to use my posterior chain. That happens when we put pressure in the right area. So when air goes up into the chest and the lungs, the center of mass goes up and backwards, and that leaks the center because it brings the points of the pubic symphysis and the sternum further apart. So now there's less strength and support. So essentially the guide wires on the inside, like the support ports on a ship start to, to fail or don't have as much success. And then fourth quarter comes up and then you really see where the leaks are at. And so those, those points will always go, will always go first. Now, in terms of the, the mechanics of running the economy, the passive return, all, all of that, the technique, the technique has been what's been shown the difference maker at the elite level is who's got the economy. A lot of different variables, but that's a big one. And those that do it the best put the center of mass again low and in the back. And when you put the center of mass low and in the back, the trunk will tip forward. Oh, so guess where the pressure is right there. But that is the objective is to have the right alignment activation of the core so that we can position the trunk in the right spot. And at the same time, make it so that it's balanced, it's not tipsy. And that means then every single step, there's less energy you have to pull out of. Because if this just goes like that, instead of down and then, oh, I crumble, and then I got to come out of the crumble and get tall again. That's what I mean by leaking. Yeah. Is breakdown in the core. Yes.

The beer can demo really drives it home.

Yeah.

Yeah. Makes a ton of sense. Yeah. That one's all yours. You like wheat beers?

Yeah. Cool.

All yours. And then my final question. So, Yeah, there's— this came up earlier today, this, this notion of— and every coach, trainer deals with it on some level— like, there's what athletes want and there's what athletes need. Um, and, and, and so for, for you, um, I've seen it, and just like, you know, bringing athletes to you, it's like they, they come in like with certain expectations in their head, and then what they get is expectation-defying in certain ways. And part of like what is required of you to be effective is like, you know, to, to, to get buy-in. Buy-in is a huge part of success in coaching. It's like, I know, you know, like, you, you know, like, you know, people who come in cold and blind, like they don't know what you have to offer, but they know they've they've been to see other people in the past with similar credentials or whatever, and they got a certain thing, and they're like, oh, it's going to be more of that, and then it's not more of that. And, you know, it can be like some cognitive dissonance. Uh, there can be, um, you know, there can be resistance, or you can feel like, I'm not getting the full buy-in here, but like, like, I know what I, I know, like, I know what you want and I know what you need, and like, how do you, how do you connect the to deliver what athletes need.

Yeah, figure out where they are, right? Because I make that assumption almost always that even the people that are doing right now, the people are doing this for a while, have in some sense no idea of how it's really working, what they're actually doing in terms of why things are changing. Because, um, yeah, because it is different in a sense. It's very, uh, it's very novel. So the first, first thing is, is It's just, hey, figure out where their A is and then let's go from there. So that's the relational component of it, is yeah, just trying to, um, yeah, figure out like, I know what you want, but how can I, yeah, put water in your belly for you?

Yeah, so that kind of comes back to the empathy piece, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, seeing people, hearing people, making them feel understood.

Yeah, but it doesn't really— it's not a matter of like trying to sell them. It's more— it is really more like empathetic, putting yourself in their shoes, seeing where they are, accepting where they are, holding them along. Yeah, right on. Well, that's what makes you good at what you do, among other things.

Very smart.

Um, does anyone in the room other than me have a question they would like to lob at AJ?

Rufus. Hang on, it's like kind of unreal. Yeah, like he would not believe his age.

Yeah, so the takeaway— thank you for tuning in— is that Rufus is really good, really good doggy. Um, yeah, so So if there are no more questions from the group, you can drink that beer. We're going to chow down and then we're going to watch the USA Outdoor Track and Field Championships if you're on board with that. Well, thank you so much for coming by. Appreciate you, AJ. All right. More to come. Yes. Thank you for tuning in.