Live From Dream Run Camp: Futsum Zeinaselassie

From Flagstaff, Arizona, I'm your host Matt Fitzgerald. I have a very special guest with me. Actually, I should say more than one. Veronica, who you'll hear chiming in, is sitting to my left. She's a current dream runner staying with us. Working the camera and soon to be sitting right here is assistant coach Lauren Clement. And the first, the special guest I was referring to is my friend Fitsum Zinaselassie, a member of the Hoka Northern Arizona Elite. Professional running team. Uh, welcome to Dream Run Camp, Putsum.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Matt.

Right on.

I'm happy to be here.

It's a real pleasure to have you. Um, so for those maybe who are watching live or watching the recording who don't know how you and I know each other, how do you and I know each other?

Well, you, you and I were teammates for about 12 weeks.

13.

Uh, 13, but who's counting? I know. Uh, this was, uh, 2017, right? Yeah. When Matt came out here for, um, uh, training for Chicago, uh, Chicago Marathon, uh, 13 weeks. Um, um, that's, uh, so that's when I met you. Yeah. Yeah.

I was just, uh, you know, cause like I wrote, I kept the journal the whole time I was here and then I wrote a book, but not everything in the journal made it into the book. So I was like reminiscing. I was remembering a time you and I and Craig Lutz ran. This is before Cal Harbor. Do you remember this?

Yeah.

At Buffalo Park. And it was like. That was like, you know, you were one of the last members of the team that I kind of really connected with. It just, it took a little longer, which is part of the reason I was glad I was here for 13 weeks. And, uh, and we just like, you know, I got to warm up and cool down with you guys and we were chatting. You were like, you were showing some curiosity about this old slow guy. And when, and when I, when you, when I told you I had run 40 marathons, you just about fell over. And then you, you remember what you called me?

Um, I don't, but I, I, yeah, I, I'm sure I'm still very, very impressive, you know, to hear somebody, um, you know, have done that many marathons. Um, I just finished with my second one, and, uh, so I'm still impressed.

Yeah, but I mean, but a lot has changed in, in like 6 years. So like, you hadn't run any marathons then, so 40 probably sounded like crazy, man.

Oh yeah. But now you've run a couple, like, is it You know, I actually thought you were actually really crazy because I did, I did leave the team because they want me to run marathon. That was, that was one of the reasons.

Oh wow.

I just wasn't ready to do it. Yeah. Um, I mean, obviously not that I don't want to do a marathon, um, you know, later on in my career, but, uh, that early I wanted to focus in 5K, 10K, track. Um, maybe the longest, you know, I thought I would do during that time was a half marathon, at least for that 4 years of, uh, cycle of my contract.

Yeah.

Um, but, uh, I felt like a lot of the training was, um, felt like a lot like marathon training for me. So I had to decide— I actually decided to leave the team in 2019.

Yeah.

So yeah, I'm sure I thought you were crazy running 40 marathons. Yeah.

So, you know, the way, um, you know, you know, the impression you, you made of those who've read Running the Dream, they're like, oh, you know, foot zone, he's the laid-back one. And, and you and I talked about this. You're like, that's not the whole foot zone. So like, you, you are laid back, but what else is—

I am, um, what I think, yeah, I would consider myself a laid-back person, uh, but, um, in terms of, I think there's, you know, from reading the book, uh, there's— and I think a lot of it could be, and I don't want to, you know, uh, go for it, throw names, but like maybe Craig Glass made me look like, you know, I'm a newbie. And I was, you know, that was my first year professional run. I joined the team in March. Um, I think you came here in June or July, uh, in 2017. So see, I was, I was fairly new to the team as well. But, you know, you know, I competed through high school, college, so I, I felt like I had a good understanding of the sport and my training and things like that. But I remember reading a little bit from the book about like you know, showing up to practice and was like, oh man, what's, uh, what's for practicing? What's— what are we doing for workouts? And I was like, oh, come on, man. Maybe I wasn't as, you know, as, um, what do you call, like, invested as maybe some of the guys were in terms of, like, you know, being locked in exactly to what, right? But I think I had a good idea what I was doing. Yeah, yeah. No, but it's all fun and great. I really enjoy reading the books.

Yeah, I mean, for me, like, you know, the way I looked at it is, um, that, you know, your, your laid-back attitude as a strength, you know, that it actually— I mean, I think you're probably pretty slow to hit the panic button, you know, when something's going wrong in training or a race. I mean, does it help you to have that kind of personality as a runner?

I, I think so. I mean, um, um, they might be, you know, it might be less shown on the outside, but I, you know, I get nervous, I get, I don't know if panic is the right word, but if training's not going well or if I'm not feeling quite myself or some races, there's a time where you're not sleeping as good as you want the day before, the night before the race. But in terms of maybe I would say 70 to 80%, I am more laid back how I view the sport and training, you know. I'm not, um, because it's not everything for me, you know. I mean, uh, you know, I come from a family that are very religious. My father is a priest, my mom's father was a priest, uh, so, and my father's father was a priest as well. So religion and then obviously my family right now, you know, are a huge part of my life. So it's like running is, um, You know, I love the sport. In fact, I was out running Eldon this morning. I was by myself, and, and one thing that kept coming to my mind was like, um, uh, to really dive into that out where, um, you know, this is a hobby and, and, and I want to enjoy it, you know. I want to do it for the right things, uh, but hey, you know, if training is not going well, race don't go well, it, it don't matter. It does matter when you're a professional runner because this is how you get paid, it's how you make a living, but, uh, it's not the end of it, you know. And it's like, uh, I wanted to focus more really, you know, uh, finding joys in the training. And then races, you know, once every, you know, I don't know, 4 to 6 weeks. So if you're not really enjoying that 4 to 6 weeks of training and you're waiting for the race to happen, um, then I think you're— I feel like you're missing a huge part of— and I know we're diving into a whole different— but how I'm trying to look at this than me being part of a laid-back is what I'm trying to explain.

But, uh, yeah, yeah, no, that's pure gold. I mean, you know, that's really valuable to hear a professional runner, uh, talk that way because it's like you don't have to choose between having fun and performing. Actually, when you're having fun, you perform 100%.

And that's— I mean, um, it says it's a very hard line to, you know, to find, uh, and then and to be on, uh, because they I think, you know, how we're like from high school to college, you know, how we're, I don't know if programmed is the right way, but, you know, like winning is what the drive is, you know, but I'm trying to get out of that and really enjoy what I do. And then, and just, you know, I think the more, you know, joy you could find in the thing that you do, a huge part of your life, which is running for me as well. I think, I think the success will come.

You mentioned your family, and, uh, so you were born in Eritrea, spent the first several years of your life there. Um, you know what, but you, you know, you came to the States when you were still fairly young. You've been here for a very long time. What sort of, um, legacy— just talk a little bit about, for those who don't know, the, you know, the early part of your life, and what, you know, what sort of legacy do you have from the time you did spend there?

Um, so I was, I was there till I was, um, like, I think, uh, I moved here in 7th grade. Um, so I was about 12 or 13 years old. Um, and but during that time, obviously, I, I don't know if you guys feel the same way, um, and like most of the things that we remember is, uh, things that we did when we were young, you know. Yeah, like those, those times are really hard to forget. Um, so, and, and I was, I was born in a, um, obviously a whole different, um, uh, life that we have right now where, you know, away from technology. I was born in a small village. Um, you know, we had, uh, we had ships and donkeys and cows growing up. Uh, so I felt like, um, 99% of my time, you know, my childhood time spent doing something, you know. Um, So I mean, I just remember that lifestyle, you know, the, you know, going with my older brother to get water or, you know, growing up and watching the ships and things like that. Just the lifestyle to like, you have to do something to make things happen. You know, you got to move around, you got to work for it. That's something that I, you know, I carried with me to this age, you know?

Yep, yeah. I'm gonna let Veronica ask a question after I pop in one more, which is just like where the running began. I think you have an older brother who ran, and was this before leaving Africa and coming to the States or after?

Yes, no, he, and man, actually my older brother was, you know, for, for here it might not sound like, uh, like no way. I think maybe he was like— I can't exactly guess how much he weighed, but I remember he was kind of overweight for back home, you know, from back home. And I think he started to just kind of, you know, he wants to get fit, um, and, and met some really, you know, some of his best friends right now are that, that he met in that running community. And he started running, and I used I used to watch him run. In fact, I remember one day, you know, before school starts, I don't know, it was 8:30, 9 AM, and this— I was in 6th or 7th grade. I ran the 400 meter in like 75, 115, and those guys were impressed, man. They were happy for me, like, man, with more training, you know, you could get better. But, um, that's how it all started. My— I mean, I used to, um, in the afternoon when, you know, he got a run kind of like, so back home is a whole different, um, uh, like view of running, you know. People don't just run around town, uh, uh, they might think you're crazy, you know. Like, it's just not— even though, because most of our lifestyles, uh, you're on your feet, you're out, you're walking, um, it's not like, you know, we're here, the, the amount of time we were out outside or on our feet is very Yep. Um, so you got to go out of the town. Uh, so I would go out of town with him and I would hold his clothes. He has to change there, you know, go for a run, come back. So, um, I think that's how it all, uh, kind of, um, like, you know, I, I start, you know, viewing the sport and liking the sport. Um, but when I, when I came here, I still wanted to play soccer. Something that I wanted to do. But I've always remembered that, uh, so back home when you finished, um, 11th grade, you've got to go to this place where you, um, they teach you how to be in an army and you do school. And my brother chose to go, uh, the athletic, uh, um, way. But, um, he didn't, you know, he just wasn't, you know, quite fast enough at that time, uh, and, you know, so he— they just took him and he went to the army. And I came in here, I remember used to say, man, I want to run for my brother, you know. But that, that, uh, what do you call it, that, that feeling, or it wasn't, it wasn't out, you know, it was deep inside me. But, um, I still wanted to play like, you know, soccer. That was, that was the first thing I wanted to do. So I missed out, I missed out the, uh, you know, trying out for soccer. Um, That was, that was the end of it.

You know, a lot of runners can relate to that.

Yeah.

That's how we ended up runners. We got cut.

Uh, PE class, I did, um, I did a mile. The coach saw me, brought me into cross country. Cause you don't need no, you know, for that you don't need no tryout, you know, uh, probably like mid-season. I don't know. Uh, and, um, the rest was history.

Right on.

Yeah.

Uh, Veronica, yeah, let's hear you.

Okay, so I have a few running and non-running based on this conversation. So your early childhood, yeah, really shaped who you are becoming or who you have become. Um, so I know you have a child, so how are you going to impart that kind of hard work ethic and that type of upbringing in a culture like this so that you instill some of what you learned into your child now?

Oh gosh, that is a beautiful question. And then I got to tell you, way before I even try to answer that, I mean, I like to say my wife and I are trying, but I think that's going to be a very, very hard thing to do. You just got to find something between. And one thing that, you know, we've been very mindful of doing is whenever we go for an afternoon walk at Buffalo Park, he's out with us. I try to bring him and practice and see Daddy working. And I mean, he's, uh, he's only— he's, he's 4, he's gonna be 5 in October. All he thinks right now is probably like, this guy's having fun, you know. See me running, that's just fun, you know. There's levels to the sport. They'd be probably like, hey, I could run, you know, I could run for like 1 minute and take a break, you know. So Uh, he's not, you know, I'm sure, you know, quite doesn't understand, um, you know, the hard work that we, we put into this. But, um, you know, I think, uh, there's a few things I've noticed from him that I feel like maybe he's catching up now. He asked me, you know, Daddy, you know, were you in training? You know, how's practice? You know, something like that. And, um, but I mean, uh, in a, in a right time, right world, I, I would love to take him back back home and show him, you know, where obviously my wife's parents from. My wife's from the capital city, but her parents are from, you know, obviously small villages back there. And would love to take him to where I grew up, show him, you know, how people, you know, how people live there, how they get, you know, their water and other things. So hopefully he could, uh, you know, at least, you know, be in a, in a position where, you know, um, understand, you know, hard work. And, but that's gonna be, you know, that's gonna be harder than what I do right now.

Yeah.

How about the term of running? You know, like, yeah, yeah, I might think I work hard, but raising, uh, you know, uh, you know, a person that understands hard work and, and those things is, is even harder, you know. More challenge. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, so I'm a big CIM fan. Yeah, I love that race. So congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you.

Fantastic. Um, you know, of course I was watching everything online.

Um, so everything I see.

So knowing the course, did you do any recon of the course? And if you did, knowing the course, like, how did you do anything specific in your training to prepare for CIM?

Um, I mean, actually, CIM was, um, it's a beautiful, uh, beautiful course. I like, I like how, um, you know, I like how, you know, how the course is. And a lot of people mention, you know, oh man, like might say fast, or toward the end it's kind of— but I like how early in the beginning, you know, you got a little bit of— so your, your quads are not all like, you know, one way. You know, it's good to go a little bit, maybe not a big hill, but a little bit rolling. It's actually— I think it's good for— because it works different type of muscles. So I enjoyed running CIM. Um, I think, um, Lake Mary is very, very close to what, what CIM provides. And, but I remember there's one, uh, one, you know, session that we did that was specific for that is— and I'm sure Matt probably done this during his buildup as well— it was the, it was a long run with fast finish. It was a 24-mile long run and the last 3 miles. And I did this at Belmont. I don't know if you guys have been out there yet. Um, yeah, Belmont is kind of hilly going out, uh, for first maybe 5 to 6 miles and then levels out a little bit, but coming back it's all downhill. So we did a medium pace long run with fast finish to just kind of mimic what CIM would be toward the end of the race.

And then that kind of leads into my next kind of what is your favorite place? Where's your favorite place to run in Flagstaff?

See, we've tried very hard to keep this secret. There's few people because But I think I've noticed lately a lot of people have found out this place is called Flag House. Um, you could get, um, 10-mile loop, you get 12-mile loop, you probably get— you get a 15-mile loop. But you could do a 12-mile loop maybe a couple times, you know, maybe 2, 3 times. And, uh, um, I mean, what I like about that place is there's no cars. Flag House is about a mile from Lake Mary, so You guys want to come check it out, come on Wednesday, right? It'll be nice enough, you know, to let you guys tag along, you know. But, uh, no, uh, I would say that's, that's my favorite place just because shaded trees, um, uh, not a lot of cars out there, um, and I really like the loop, you know. You don't have, you know, A1, you know, going out and back, um, Naval, or, um, I don't know, like, uh, Walnut Canyons and other places, they're kind of out and back. And me and Wesley just actually— part of the trail is not quite great, the footing, so we wouldn't recommend to go there. But we have figured out a 10-mile loop out of A1 that we've done. We've been doing every Saturday. But I would say Flag House is my favorite place.

Flag House.

Flag House. No, there's Wednesday, maybe.

Yes, Wednesday. Wednesday, come by. Why not?

I just have one final question because I'd love to hear, like, what is your favorite workout? My favorite workout, um, and this could be like when you work 5K, 10K, whatever it is, like whatever the favorite.

I mean, I think, um, it all, it all depends. I think, uh, like when I'm fit, I like to do like, you know, 8 to 10 miles tempo, um, like a marathon pace. That just comes like rhythm, you know. It's nice, probably not a fun thing to do early, uh, early, uh, in your build-up because you're not fit enough to, you know, to do something like that. Um, and I, and I would say whenever I'm getting back to training, I like, I like the shorter sessions because you could do 400s, you know, 70s, 68s, wherever that is. Um, and you've got to rest, you know, then you go, you got it. And I think, um, It's very smart as well when it comes to, you know, how much pressure you put on your body because, you know, it's early in the season and if you're trying to go a mile, you know, at that pace, just, you know, form might break down and other things. So I like those, but I would say the lumberjack was something that we've done in college. Was no one— I don't know. I mean, I remember Ben once in a while, this is Eric Hines, my old coach from college. This was his, like, we would go all in for this. And this was, you would do first, you would do 4 400s, you do 10-minute tempo, and then 4 400s, 10-minute tempo, and then you finish with 4 400s and those 400s progress. But the 2 miles stays the same or the 10-minute tempo. Stays about, you know, 5 minutes per mile type of pace. And, uh, uh, we used to really look forward to this workout.

Good one. Yeah, I give baby versions of it to some of the athletes I coach.

And I think it's, it's the name, man. We're in Flagstaff, you know, kind of— wear your flannel. Yeah, yeah, that's actually a thing now when— I don't know if they still do it, but, um, yeah, whenever we made it to National East. That's how we address it. Oh, wow. Okay, cool. Very cool.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

When you were over here for the open house that we had, and thank you again for coming. Good to have some star power. I congratulated you because you had recently run Rotterdam, improved on— you said that was your second marathon, lowered your time. I think you hit the Olympic standard exactly, 2:09:40.

Is that right? World, I think. Was it World or Olympic? I think it was World. World, okay.

And, you know, I remember you saying, "Yeah, I'm a work in progress." So you were acknowledging that you were making progress, but you were also sort of looking ahead and saying, "Well, you know, I'm not done yet." What does that mean, that mindset, that work in progress mindset mean to you?

Well, I think, man, there's, A friend once told me this, and I don't know if it's too late for me, or if I would like to say it's not, it's not too late for anybody. But I, you know, I remember just kind of, what do you call it, like, I was just speaking about, you know, how my career is and what my career is and just kind of feeling bad, you know, feeling bad about myself. And then he was telling me like, hey man, we all travel in a different way, you know. Some people might take an airplane, get to Phoenix quick, and some take a bus and it takes longer, you know, or a car. So he's like, hey, maybe you're just— maybe you're walking. Maybe I'm walking my career. That's what's going on. It's taking me so long to get to Phoenix. But I think, um, work in progress. I feel like I just haven't really, um, um, you know, for a lot of reason. A lot of it is, um, you know, I would say, you know, it's up to me, uh, that, you know, I haven't made it happen yet, uh, but, um there's just so much I know, you know, I've got left in myself, and I know, you know, um, what I'm capable of doing. Uh, so even just in Rotterdam itself, I know when I was in a better, in a better shape. And as you've run 40, uh, 40 marathons, you understand that, you know, you can't run marathon alone. Um, so I remember, you know, from 21K to like, you know, 30 or 35, and I, I could have probably made the decision, you know, to push on by myself after 30K, but we all understand that 30K is only halfway in a marathon. Um, those 12Ks, uh, are hard, so I really waited and held myself back. But if the pacer kind of stayed on the pace, I think I would have, you know, ran at least pretty close to 2:09 or break 2:09 because we were sub-2:09 pace through the half. And then, and then when the other pacer dropped out, the other kind of slowed down a little bit. Um, but I had to stick with him just knowing that how far I have left Right. And, um, I finished strong, but, uh, it's really hard to close faster than I did, uh, in a marathon. Yeah. When you're that tired. So maybe that, that was part of it as well. Um, I think I'm capable of running, you know, way, way faster than I've done. I've done there. So, yeah.

So what does, uh, what are the mechanics of that look like? So you're like, okay, I've done this much, I want to do this much more, I really believe I can do this much more, like What do you actually do to get from here to here?

Yeah, man, that's, that's, that's actually a great question. This is, uh, it's the meeting we had with coach about it, you know, uh, you know, asked me what I think, you know, and gave me his advice of what he thinks. Um, this is with Alan Koepper, you know, and, um, um, there's a few places, you know, we both, uh, uh, you know, different places that we saw that we could improve, but at the same time, there was one thing that we We're like, oh yeah, this makes sense. And one thing we're doing right now is, and I think it's probably the safe way to do, is upping a little bit my easy runs, a little bit faster than what I'm doing. So if I used to run 8-minute pace, maybe run 7:30 pace. So, and this is very safe way to do just because, you know, with running the faster workouts and things could lead to something else, but with your easy runs, just upping the speed a little bit And obviously mentioned about, you know, I only run, um, I probably average about 100 miles a week for like 4 weeks or 8 weeks to Rotterdam. But he likes, you know, he likes if I can get up to that 110, 115 even way before those 8 weeks. Yeah. Um, but when my answer to him when he asked me, I was like, I gotta run faster workout, man. Train me like a 10K. Yeah, like half marathon. But this American coaches, man, this is like mileage, man. Run more, run more. And I'm like, how much more can I run, man? I think, uh, you know, we both understand we got to stay, you know, somewhere in between. So I like, I like the running a little bit faster, my easy runs. Yeah, I think, you know, you've got enough time to recover.

So yeah, one thing I discovered in, you know, in my own journey as a runner, which went on for a very long time, you know, because like, like, I mean, we're all We all look at ourselves as work in progress. We all want to believe that our best race is still in front of us.

Yeah.

And one thing, you know, I wish I had discovered much younger is like, we all, our bodies are all different. And like, just like what works great for another runner, even another runner who's about your level, might not be your perfect formula. And I felt like, you know, when I got into my 40s, actually, that's when I started to figure out, oh, this is how I need to train. And it was like, breaking some of the rules that other people were doing, but it's like, it works for me. Are you still kind of learning your optimal formula, especially as you move up to the longer distances? It's like, what's perfect for me versus what he's doing or she's doing?

Oh yeah. I mean, 100%. That's why we're still— I think sometimes it helps when you're with one coach for a long time. 'Cause throughout that time he could really, you know, hopefully, you know, it won't take more than 2 years for him to figure out exactly, you know, how your body works and what, you know, what works and what doesn't work. But like, you know, after college to band, from band to this Airtime course that I was working with, you know, till, you know, I'm back with Alan right now, with McCurdy as well. Between. So it was just about a year and a half. And it's not— it wasn't, you know, obviously NAZ was all about coaching. Like, hey, I'm leaving here because, you know, you're not willing to push me a certain ways. Like, you're not willing to— because this was exactly to what you just said. Like, um, like, uh, and I, I don't think this was specific for the person, was specific for what we were training for. I feel like I was training for a marathon, and I was like, hey, I want to do 5K, 10K. So this is not what am I doing here? Um, but from there, I didn't leave those coaches because of their, um, how they were coaching me. It was, it was a matter of like, uh, making the right decision for my career and, uh, for my family, obviously financial and all that stuff. Um, so, um, but yeah, that we all, I think, uh, to an extent, I think, you know, we all train. For me, I I've always felt like after I left NAZ, I was doing 3 workouts in a week where I was working out Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. And I felt like that till now, I still think that's the best way to train if you're training for a half marathon at the professional level. But for other people that runs as a hobby or so, you want to qualify for New York and Boston, they don't have that time, you know, to train 3 times a week. But for marathon, so it's funny, like, I know exactly how I should train, but I can't do that. And I saw I'm part of a team, you know. I think if I was, if I was to choose how to train, I would train, um, 3 times a week with doing, you know, anywhere from 13 to 15 miles long run on Wednesday, uh, for maybe the first 8 weeks after I— let's say I took 2 weeks off after Rotterdam and 2 weeks easy. And then for the next 8 weeks is how I would train. And then from there I would go to 2 days training, uh, that we do right now with the team. And from there, if I'm getting ready for marathon, I would go on 3 days. So, uh, workout today's easy, workout today. So that's how I would train myself.

Yeah, yeah, you're, you're talking like a coach.

Um, well, I am a coach.

Yeah, I know.

Yes.

So yeah, um, are you still coaching athletes?

Yeah, not as many as I want, but I am, I am coaching, obviously. Um, I'm not— not that, you know, I'm not willing to put the time and then the marketing, the, you know, through social media and things like that, because my main focus right now is how do I make the Olympic team. And, you know, my wife and I are expecting, you know, second child right now. So, but, but yeah, if anybody could reach out to me and then say— I think I want— so I only coach about 7 people right now. I like to get up to 15. I think that's, that's the max I could handle right now. My training, my family, because I want to make sure I give 100% focus to my athletes as well that I'm training and be part of the journey. So I like to get up to 15, but that's something I'm not willing to invest the time in terms of marketing, but if I get athletes, yeah, that's, I'm willing to work with.

Right on. So if there's anyone out there listening who needs a good coach—

I don't know about a good coach, but I will try my best.

We'll cut out that part. Well, you know, one thing that I, I always found, it's one of the things that I miss about running, you know, not being able to run for health reasons now, is that like being an athlete helped my coaching. For, you know, for me, I wasn't, you know, a professional athlete, so actually the coaching mattered more on a professional level. I felt like being out there and doing the work myself and competing and stretching myself helped me coach better athletes better. Do you actually find that coaching other athletes helps you as an athlete yourself, that you learn things from working with other athletes that you actually apply to yourself?

100%. And I'm not just saying that sometimes word is not enough to really describe how we really feel, but I really 100% believe that. I mean, I see you know, like I mentioned earlier, you know, I've got about 7 athletes and seeing them that, you know, they've got, you know, a whole different, you know, like life and profession that they, and they still go out there and, and make the time, uh, to train and, and to put in the work and to see progress. The one thing, you know, a lot of people spoke about running is beautiful thing about our sport is there's progress at every level. Uh, it's not, you know, you don't have to be professional trying to make money. It's like Man, it's you against time. Even at the professional level, they're still, you know, we're still trying to go against the time as well. So, um, seeing them put in the work and, uh, while, you know, doing a 40-hour job, um, you know, when it's especially during the winter, man, those people are my motivation. And, you know, part of my family and other things, there are huge, huge motivations to me getting out of the door and getting my work done. Um, We talk a lot about stretching, taking the time every hour or 3 hours, whatever, if they're at work or even at home watching TV, to be down on the carpet and roll out, stretch. We talk about nutrition, we talk about water. And every time we talked about these things, it reminds me to do the same as well. Because I think it's hard to just say things and not do it as well. So for that reason, I think, yeah, they help me in so many ways as well.

They hold you accountable.

Yes, sir. Yeah. And I think biggest part is I do think we do so little in terms of like, it's not very hard to coach somebody at that level. Someone is trying to break 3 hours, 3:30, 4 hours, 4:30. So in terms of the amount of knowledge we put in, it's not like you're trying to coach somebody that's trying 210. There's so little errors you got to make at that level. I'm not saying we still put the same, but the effort, the thinking of the training, you just got to make sure you watch the patterns. Hey, are they staying consistent? Are they staying healthy? Are they improving? And seeing them when they accomplish their goal and then how good they, you know, they just feel so proud so that, you know, their joy of, you know, running personal times or qualifying for, um, those big, you know, major marathon races, um, you know, watching them having that much joy makes you feel good as well. Yep.

Yeah. Hearing you say that, it reminds me of, um, when, you know, my wife and I moved here to Flagstaff to start Dream Run Camp. And, you know, we have this connection with NAZ Elite And, you know, I asked Ben, uh, Brandon Rosario, to let the team know what I was doing and say, hey, you know, anyone who, you know, is interested in, in being involved, like, you're welcome to. Like, that's something I want. And, uh, you were one of— not to cast shade on anyone— but you were one of two people who immediately— of course, we had pre-existing relationship, but you're, you, you, you're like, I'm—

yeah, I was disappointed a little bit. I didn't get much of, um written on the book, you know. I thought you and I knew each other very well, man.

But it seems like, you know, what I'm getting at is, uh, it seems like, you know, like you do want to— you don't want to— I mean, it's easy to be like completely selfish as a professional athlete, and it seems like you don't really want that, like that you kind of you want to maybe contribute to the sport beyond, uh, you know, going to the Olympics and pursuing your own goals?

Um, well, yeah, man, I, I think, um, you know, obviously, you know, I want to, you know, I want my actions to speak for it. I don't want to, you know, talk and, and how I feel about the sport, but, um, um, you know, myself and, and so many others out there, I'm sure, uh, they're very grateful for the running community and what running has done for them. Uh, so In some ways, um, it would be nice to go out there and, and, and be able to give that back to the running community. So, um, and I think, I think runners are some of the coolest people, so I love hanging out with runners. I'm serious. I'm serious. I think, um, um, man, I, I meet some of, uh, you know, the people that volunteers in these races that we go in and how they treat us and, and how they're in awe of meeting us. And just, you know, for me, that's, uh, man, I'm like, nah, man, I'm so happy you're out here volunteering and doing this for us, you know? So, um, uh, just, but in general, yeah, I want to, um, you know, I love being in the running community. Um, and, uh, uh, running has done so much for me, you know, uh, from, you know, um, uh, you know, making friends, to being comfortable, to fit in, you know, at the middle school, high school. Because I remember my first like 3, 4 months of school was, was not easy. And this was middle school. I'm sure probably most of us feel the same way about middle school, you know. But, uh, I just, you know, sitting at the lunch by yourself, you know, uh, whatever, you know, not really speaking to a lot. And it's not to hold against it, they're young kids, you know, we're all young at that age. Uh, but even in high school, I feel like Like if it wasn't for running, I don't think I would have really found that comfort, that confidence in myself and the community. So run and college, free school at the university level. And right now, just running for a living, that's my job. That's kind of cool as well. I do like a 2-hour work, go sleep, go out and for 45 minutes or something of work as well. So it's like, um, I want to be able to give that, you know, give, give that back to the community as well, to the running community. So, yep.

Okay, thought, thought you were just getting ready. So, um, yeah, so you, you mostly like to let your actions speak. Um, I happen to be, uh, working on something now, something I'm, I'm writing that's about how um, like the idea of like having a, a, a vision of the person you want to become, like, you know, you know, the best version of yourself and how actually like having a clarity about that, like who I want to be, like what are the best parts of myself? Like when I'm in a, when I'm facing a challenge, like what comes out of me that I like and that I want to be that person more of the time and how actually thinking that way can actually help you as an athlete, not just as a person. But you kind of grow as a person and grow as an athlete simultaneously, sort of looking ahead because you're still a young guy.

I appreciate it, man. I don't hear that very often from my teammates, man. I'm the oldest now on the team.

Oh, dear.

Yeah.

Well, that's kind of wild.

I know, man. In fact, without naming one of the guys, he was asking me, I was like, oh, man, I think I've gained a few pounds from taking 2 weeks and 2 weeks easy, whatever he said. 'Hey, Futsu man, is this because, uh, is this, is this, does your digestion slow down because you're old?' I'm like, 'Bro, come on, man, I am that old? I hope not.' Um, no, yeah, we've got, you know, we've got 24, 23, uh, maybe even some younger guys on the team. So, uh, and I'm 30, so it makes me feel old, you know. Yeah, my body doesn't, but it just, you know, those speaking like it's a fact, you know. Don't worry, I don't move like that though, you know.

Yeah, yep, there you go.

No, not yet.

But, you know, who, you know, who's the, who's the footsome that you want to become like more of in, like, you know, what direction do you want to grow as a person?

Oh man, um, well, ask me that again. I, I really want to understand this question exactly.

Yeah, well, you know, maybe it's the wrong question. Like, no, like, do you feel like, um you know, that you've come a long way as a person, that you've grown a lot, and, um, and you sort of— you're not going to want to answer this question, but like, you're kind of like, you like the person you are, um, and you've sort of earned it? Or you— or do you still look at yourself as a work in progress on that level too?

Oh yeah, um, come on, I'm not even close, man. Uh, um, No, there's, um, um, I think I, I would say, you know, one thing that is still in progress is to really, um, um, in every aspect of my life, uh, to, you know, to have faith in my religion and my, you know, and my faith in my religion, uh, to be strong on that. I mean, I think, um, not really letting any, you know anything that comes up in life not to move you in a big way, you know. Yeah, so I think that's something I like big time, and I, you know, that's some— that is a huge, you know, work in progress. But, um, um, I, I, I would say, you know, I mean, I think even, you know, having faith in everything that I do, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna work on in the long run, having faith and financially you're going to be great and all those things. Yeah, I would say yeah.

Right on.

Well, man, you're asking me. I didn't expect— I thought you were going to just continue on running. I didn't prepare for that, man.

Well, I can't help myself.

I should have been No, no, this is a great question. No, might need a, might need a few beers or coffee or tea for that type of talk, man. We'll give you a—

come on now, give you another crack at that.

Ask me a question like that with just water, man. I ambushed you.

All right, well, we'll, we'll wrap up in a minute here, but I do want to bring it back to running. So, I mean, and very concrete Like that, if that was like a really deep question, I'm going to give you like a shallow one. Balance it out.

What's next? Uh, what's next? Um, I mean, obviously it's not, you know, it's not official yet, so I can't really say, but there will be a full marathon, uh, for me. Um, I mean, I, I would personally would have liked to do, uh, more short races, but, um, you know, my coach felt like, um, for what we're trying to prepare, you know, for this full marathon and, um, and the 2024 Olympic trials. I will do the Big C 7 Mile, which is a US championship race, and the 20K. So this will be the two races that I'll do before the full marathon. But man, I'm just excited, really, you know, put in, you know, the, put in the, you know, good amount of training and then prepare the body and then, and the mind for, you know, obviously those races ahead, but those are preparation for the 2020— 2024 Olympic. Keep saying 2020. 2024 Olympic trials. Yes, right.

Yeah, I've got to find my way there so I can cheer you on.

Yeah, that would be amazing. Yeah.

Do you like your chances?

Um, I would say no. I would say I think, uh, my two marathons and how I felt, more than anything, I think We, we touched on this earlier about, um, about the training and that's the most important for me is like, you know, how, how well my body adapted and how I was able to do the training. I think gives me confidence that, um, yeah, I should be in a good position, um, to do all the trials. Yeah.

Well, you know, the, the pundits can have their opinions. I, I'm pretty sure that you're gonna be on everyone's list of, of people who have a real chance. Uh, but like, I don't care about predictions. I'm just rooting for you.

I appreciate that.

You You and the other NAZ runners, but especially you.

Yeah, that's, that's how it has to be now. You're, you know, you're, you're a Flagstaff local, you're here in town, so you've gotta, um, forget about the teams, man. You, you know, you're an NAZ team as well, you know. Uh, you've trained with us for 13 weeks, so, um, I don't think anybody would hold that against you.

Yeah, I'm a total homer. Well, uh, this is your last opportunity. Lauren, you've been awful quiet. Veronica, if there's anything you want to shoehorn in before we get— let this man get on with his life.

Well, yeah, question. Um, was there anything mentally that you changed in your second marathon from your first marathon, or like mental approach to that one, having done one going into your second?

Um, well, yeah, I'm actually, you know, I gotta give a shout out to Shannon Thompson, which is, um, she's a mental performance, um, um, coach then, and sports psychology, something along that side. Hopefully she's not watching this video. She's like, with all this work, that's all you could say? Um, no, but, uh, she's, uh, she's been amazing in terms of really, you know, giving me some, you know, you know, insights and inputs and how I, you know, go about you know, the training and what I want to think about. But she helped me a lot for CIM and how I approached the race and how I could divide it in blocks instead of trying to focus on the whole marathon. And that worked really well for me. So, you know, I just carried that to Rotterdam. But I think in general, the whole training and then just Being in— I think the marathon is hard itself, but I think— I don't know if people speak about this often enough, but I think the training, the buildup is something that you got to be very mindful and careful and be smart, because if that goes really well, your marathon should go well. Yeah. Unless you go out crazy and then maybe you will learn life the hard way.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

That's very true. Just a lot of people think about the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, the marathon race day, and then they're not as mindful as they should be with, no, today matters and tomorrow matters. The marathon will come.

Yeah. All right.

Well, thank you so much. It's been a really real treat to have you here and this is good timing.

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Whitson.

We'll let you take that call or whatever. No, no, it's—

uh, tune in next time, uh, for another episode of Live from Dream Run Camp.

Thank you all.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Anytime.

Anytime. Right on.