Live from Dream Run Camp: Jenna Wrieden on the Human Side of Coaching

With another episode of Live from Dream Run Camp, uh, what's it called? Live from Dream Run Camp presented by 80.20 Endurance. We're here at the Dream Run House in Flagstaff, Arizona. Our guest today is Jenna Reardon, assistant coach of the Hoka Northern Arizona Elite professional running team here in Flag. Welcome.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for coming out. Yeah. No problem. Yep. So, um, and also, uh, I think, uh, Veronica was here when Footsome was here, right? So yeah, this is, uh, episode number 2 for Veronica. She is also prepared. I've got my list of questions for Jenna, but Veronica is prepped as well. And, um, you know, Lauren, if you want to chime in with a question or two, you are more than welcome to. I'm not sure how much I'm going to need these. Uh, I'm actually interested in, um, in starting off with some of your biography.

Sure.

Um, starting with, um, you know, your introduction to running. You grew up in Arizona, yes?

Yes, I grew up in Arizona from middle school all the way through college. Um, so I went to Arizona State and college and then, um, moved on to grad school at Appalachian State in North Carolina. And that's actually where I started coaching. I took my fifth year there, and then I had another year left to complete my master's degree. And so I just started volunteering with the team that I had just run on and driving these really scary 15-passenger vans on, on mountainous roads. That was my introduction to coaching, was driving 15-passenger vans. But yeah, Coach Mike Curcio there kind of just like opened that door for me. He was like, yes, please help volunteer, stay on. And I just did like everything I could in that realm. And then I got a phone call from my college coach at Arizona State when I finished my master's, an offer to come back to the other ASU and be the graduate assistant coach for Arizona State. And so I said, heck yes, I will do that. And I began another master's degree just so I could start coaching. So I actually never finished that second master's, but, um, Then I started coaching at Arizona State.

Right on.

And that opened up a lot of doors for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So rewinding a bit, did you start running when you were 3 years old?

No, I was the classic soccer convert.

Uh-huh.

You know, just like grew up thinking I was going to be like Mia Hamm and get a scholarship to play soccer and then slowly realized I was much better at running and running kind of, yeah, it just became more and more evident that I was better at that. And so then I started to pursue that in high school and college.

Yeah. So take away the ball and you're good to go.

Yeah.

That was my story too.

Yeah. Yeah. There's so many of us out there.

Yeah. I actually had to blow out my knee and have reconstructive surgery before I really got the message.

Yeah.

That wasn't your story.

No, thankfully. And I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

It's all good.

Yeah.

I might be still trying to dribble today if that hadn't happened.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was a one-touch goal scorer. If two touches meant the defender had the ball. Yeah.

Yeah. But we could run, so we were good.

Yeah, I never got tired. That was a thing.

Yeah.

Like all my goals came at the very end of the game.

Yeah.

Why?

I was the one like that played midfield and made all the runs and just screaming, I'm open, I'm open, never got the ball but kept making the runs. So that's how I— my theory of how I got better at running.

Yep. Yeah, there's a lot of running in soccer. So were you, uh, average, good, or very good, or great in high school as a runner?

I think those are good categories. I think I was probably Good. I was like probably like second to third in the state of Arizona. Never, never won individually, but our team won a state title when I was in— I went to Mountain Ridge High School in Glendale, Arizona. And so we were, we were good. We had a really good high school coach. We were two, actually both of my high school coaches, assistant and head, were really good. I've had good coaches my entire life. Like, I've never had a bad story about that. And so I think that's one of the reasons I'm also coaching. But, um, yeah, my era in high school was actually overlapped with Stephanie Bruce. So she went to a rival high school of mine, and we didn't typically see each other that much until the state meet, and she would usually beat me, but But yeah, and I went to high school at the same time as, um, Sarah Gordon, now Sarah Slattery, and Sally Meyerhoff, who ran at Duke. So we had like a really good— at the time I felt like a really good state, um, group of women that kind of helped me get better and better. Yeah, but I mean, I still wasn't great. Like, I, I, I was a walk-on at Arizona State, so I was recruited there, but I wasn't a scholarship athlete.

Yeah. Uh, when did you get the first inkling that you might be cut out for coaching? Like, having good role models as, as your earliest coaches is one thing, but still, you probably had teammates who just— it wasn't— that didn't speak to them. Did it speak to you early on?

Yeah, I think pretty early on I just knew I loved the X's and O's. I loved like the little things that made me better, which I think a lot of runners can relate to., but I like to like hone in on, um, well, if I did X, Y, and Z, then I could probably go here, you know. And so that always interested me. And, um, and then I started— I've always liked science, so when I was in school, I gravitated towards exercise physiology, and that was like another bump in my passion, I think, to coach. And then Yeah, like I said, I've had such amazing coaches that I just felt like I wanted to pay it forward, especially like after college when I was making the decision to go to grad school and get my master's in exercise physiology and strength and conditioning. I got— I had another great coach there who, yeah, he— Mike Curcio kind of opened that door for me to just— he was super casual. He's like, I just stay Stay on, you can keep coming to practice. And he knew he could feed that passion in me. And I definitely— that's when I knew, all right, I think I can do this at the NCAA level.

Yeah. How about the interpersonal side of coaching? So you liked the X's and O's, you had a scientific bent. Obviously, coaching is largely relational in nature. Have, like, were you sort of like a quiet leader on your team? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm surprised you guessed that about me. I was just telling Veronica I'm an extroverted introvert. Yeah. So, yes, otherwise known as a quiet leader. I just, I mean, running can do that to you, right? Or you can, like, put in the work and, like, other people see that and they're inspired by that. And I definitely, like, now I'm more vocal about it, but in the early stages of my career, it was so cool to see, see the dividends that you could gain from the work. And so I would often talk to people about that, like in my early, early coaching when I was the same age as the people that I was coaching in college, if not maybe one year older. We would just often talk about like how cool it was to like No one could take your work ethic away from you, right? So you could always have the ability to improve, theoretically. And then watching people go through that and like commit to that was really exciting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at ASU, you were around, uh, you had some good runners there, uh, your time, uh, uh, Desiree Davila. Yep. Now Des Linden. Yes. Amy Craig, she had a different last name back then.

Amy Hastings.

Amy Hastings, that's right.

Yeah, I remember.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, so what was that like?

Yeah, it was awesome. I came in the same class as Amy, um, so we immediately became friends and we're still good friends to this day. And, um, Des was a year older than me, also a great human being. Um, we had an awesome team though. Like, those were two standouts, I would say. But, um, our team was full of just like a bunch of women who weren't fazed by anything. Like, running at 5:30 in the morning because it was 100 degrees outside, that's no problem. Like, everyone just was like, okay, that sounds fine. Like, we'll do this together. And we'll— I think it like encompassed sort of that blue-collar grinder mentality. And we all— again, another thing I love, like, no matter how fast you were or like where you fell on the ranking of the team, we could all have this, we could all contribute the same level of work. We just had like a really good— we had a really good mindset on that team. And I left, I left that program like when I graduated, and we were 4th in the nation in cross country. And I was— I, I didn't make that roster. I was not on the top 7 to go, but I went to that meet to cheer on my teammates because I cared so much about it. And my coach at the time, Louie Quintana, like, brought me up on the trophy stage thing when we won, and I just thought that was like really cool that he allowed, because he knew I was part of it even though I wasn't like a scoring member of the team. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was really— I think it was a really special group.

Yeah, that we had. Sounds like it. Um, definitely a formative experience, like, given, you know, what you've gone on to. Um, how about, like, you know, obviously, like, the story is you became a coach, but, um, how did your running, uh, you know Where did your running go post-collegiate?

Yeah, that's a good question. I started dabbling in marathons like as soon as I, I kept running at App State when I was volunteering. And then when I went back to Arizona, I was like, I'll try marathon. Why not? Because it seemed to be the more I moved up in distance, the better I got. So I ended up running probably 3 years post-college, like just on my own, just to see what I could do in the marathon mostly. And as I was doing that, coaching kind of became more and more like relevant in my life. And so after about 3 years of pretty heavy training, I just kind of realized, okay, this is probably about as good as I'm going to be. Like, I mean, I could have maybe squeezed a few more minutes out of myself in the marathon, but I think I got pretty close. And so like I was, it was able to transition to coaching with like a full investment pretty easily.

Yeah. So those, uh, the very earliest days when you are, I mean, it's one thing to be, you know, like a runner yourself and, you know, kind of informally advising other runners. Um, but when you have any kind of formal responsibility, there's like you feel the difference. And for a lot of folks, there can be a little bit of imposter syndrome that kicks in early on. Did you deal with that at all?

Yeah, I don't know if I've ever really related to that phrase in particular. I know I've struggled with like confidence here and there. Yeah. Um, but I never felt like I didn't belong. And I think that is a huge— hugely partly because of who I worked with. Everyone I've ever worked with has always been really supportive and empowering and just like, hey, you can do this. So if I did have those down moments of like, I don't know exactly what I'm doing, I would always have someone, whether it's the head coach or, um, you know, the person who gave me the job, or even an athlete themselves when I was young, you know, they really encouraged me that I could do it. So I was like, okay, if everyone's consistently saying this, I must not be that bad. I must be doing something right. Yeah. So I gained a lot of confidence from that.

Yeah. Um, did you, uh, you know, start to develop a sense of your own personal style? Because, you know, like, you know, in the very beginning you have influences and you're like, well, I like this coach because of XYZ, but you might be different from them in ABC way.

Yeah, that's a really good question. That took me way too long to figure out as a coach because as an athlete, I really responded to, um, like kind of that, like that grinder mentality, right? Like just people who are like somewhat tough on me but believed in me still, not, you know, just like that kind of mentality. And then when I tried to do that in coaching, because I thought that's how you did it, it didn't quite match my personality. So it was constantly like trying to be someone who I wasn't, and I think it which just was a mistake. Um, and so when I finally just like fell into, all right, just be who you are, like, I'm a pretty relaxed, positive person, and, um, it works out much better that way when you can just like be yourself and bond with an athlete and show them trust and investment. It's way better. But that took me like 10 years figure out.

Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah, you know, because it really is, um, I mean, like, it's the truth, right? Um, but we can be a little bit slow on the uptake sometimes in our careers.

Yes, yes. Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes. I feel so bad for some of those early athletes that I coached, just trying to be like hardcore and totally backfiring. So now I'm at the pro level and I'm probably the most relaxed and encouraging I've ever been, and it's great. You know, I think people— I will, I will argue with anyone like any day of the week that I think a positive, genuine, encouraging mindset is, is a very powerful coaching tool. I'm not about the 'I'll break you down and then build you up.' Yeah, even like, I might make some enemies here, but like even in like football Or like men's lacrosse, which I— or basketball, like kind of those testosterone-heavy sports sometimes where you're just like, I'm gonna like build, I'm gonna break you down and build you up and you're gonna be as better, better than you ever were. I don't know. I would argue try something different and see if you can encourage someone to find something within themselves that they wouldn't otherwise have found.

Yeah. So it's not just a matter of finding what works for you. You feel like you have found what works.

No, it's still, it's still for me. But I think, I mean, even like if you go back to like John Wooden, like he was like a really encouraging, um, coach on for men's basketball. And so like I pull from, I just pull from the things that I feel like are working for me. So then I think they work for everything.

Yeah. But one of the things about coaching is like you never stop making mistakes, right?

Oh yeah. No, you don't. Unfortunately.

Yeah.

It's just like life.

It's part of it. So, I mean, is it sort of like an asymptote where you can kind of like, you never completely eliminate the mistakes, but you can like make fewer and fewer and they're like less egregious as time goes on?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, what would we be doing if we weren't learning from our mistakes as a coach, as an athlete in life in general? If you continue to do something that doesn't work, you're just gonna bang your head against a brick wall. So you have to pivot and you have to be creative. And for me, like, I've always had really good mentors. So, you know, decades later, I can still call them up and talk to them about maybe a specific problem here and there that, like, I can't figure out, and they always bring insight. And perspective to it. So just having like a, maybe like an inner circle that you trust, it's always good to like bounce ideas off of people in that circle, right?

Yeah.

Yep. Um, so we have a little bit of biographical overlap with, um, the Zap Fitness. Yes, you, you had, um, some involvement with, with Pete and Zika Ray and their, their whole scene. They're fantastic. Yeah. So I think you probably got to know them a lot better than I did, though I got to know them and they are fantastic.

Tell us about that phase.

Sure.

Yeah. So Appalachian State, where I went to grad school, is right next door to ZAP Fitness. At the time, they were ZAP Fitness. And so as I was going through grad school and coaching, volunteer coaching there, I connected with Pete and Zico Rey and started working their adult running camps in the summer as an intern, which was like one of the coolest things I've ever done in my life. Just like people from all over the United States and the world just showing up to run, to connect with people, kind of like what you're doing here, um, to gain knowledge from professional athletes and from coaches. And just basically go on like a running retreat. Now my job was to like clean the dorm rooms and mow the lawn, which I actually really liked mowing the lawn. You got to ride the tractor, which was cool. This is Boone, North Carolina.

Plenty of lawn.

Yeah, plenty of lawn. Yeah. Um, but then like in the evenings we would like hang out and, um, you know, eat healthy dinners and just talk and you just learned so much about people and their running journey, and they were so interested in you, like genuinely interested in like how you, you became a runner and why you're here. And I don't know, it was really cool. And Pete and Zika have always, um, been in my corner. They've been a reference for me for probably every job that I've ever applied for, including this one. So we're talking from like 2006 to now. Yeah. So that tells you something about their character and loyalty.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, yeah, for, for someone like me, like I, you know, I, I did not run in college. I chose my college based largely on the running program and then didn't run there and then just moved on into journalism. And then, but I've gotten to know a lot of collegiate coaches, um, just, and it seems like to sort of cut your teeth in that profession, if you decide this is the path I'm going down, you need to be prepared to bounce around a lot.

Oh, yeah. And I did. Some of that bouncing was between the same two different states, North Carolina and Arizona, back and forth. I moved across the country 4 times. And then after Arizona State, ended up working at Queens University in North Carolina. Which is a Division II school, and then ultimately at High Point University in North Carolina. Um, another phenomenal experience. And then from there, Louisville, Kentucky, and now I'm in Arizona. So full circle to go all the way back and forth. Yeah, but yeah, you have to bounce around.

Yeah.

So, uh, you know, for those who don't understand, just like how the sausage is made, like, how—

like, why is that the case? Um, gosh, it's kind of equivalent to just climbing an industry ladder a little bit. Like when I was at Arizona State, or I started at Appalachian State, it was a volunteer. At Arizona State I was a graduate assistant, and then I got my first assistant job, you know, a year after that at Queens. And then I moved to Division II to Division I, and then I moved mid-major to Power Five, and then I moved from Power Five to professional. So I'm just gonna stop climbing the ladder. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm always climbing, but I feel like this is a really good fit.

Yeah, yeah. So tell us about that now. Like, you, uh, when that, you know, posting— I'm sure, like, I don't know how many people— you probably know how many people applied for that position, but like Hoka Northern Arizona Elite wants an assistant coach. Like, that seems like a plum job to a lot of people.

I thought— yeah, thank God for Twitter. That's where I saw it. Yeah, was it? Yeah, yeah, just scrolling through Twitter and Ben posted it. Ben Rosario posted it on social media, and that's pretty rare. So I'm glad that I saw it and started having that conversation in my head if that was something that sounded pretty amazing and if I was actually going to pursue it.

Yeah. I mean, I imagine there are— I know there are college coaches out there who would have no interest in coaching at the professional level.

Why did it speak to you? Just working with high-level elite athletes was probably the number one draw. I just really like working with people who want to get the most out of themselves which could be anyone, but also then are capable of making, um, you know, USA and world teams. And just, I don't know, just able to really have that elite mindset, a champion mindset. It's really, really insightful and really unique and special to work with people like that. So that was the number one draw. And then, um, It was kind of interesting to think about coming back to Arizona, and, um, yeah, just, I just felt like that was the next step for my career.

Yeah. So this is one of these totally unfair questions, but I don't have anyone else here to answer it. Okay. If Ben were here, I would ask him, not you. Okay. Yeah.

Um, so go for it.

Why do you think you stood out and, and got the position?

That's a good question because this was actually the first job I had no connections to. I didn't have someone— I mean, I had people calling on my behalf, but I didn't have a relationship with Ben at all. I didn't know him, um, and I didn't know Hoka. I didn't know the brand. And so, um, yeah, I mean, it was an interesting time because we had just been through the pandemic, so like Zoom interviews were a normal thing. So I had like several rounds of those and then I came out for an in-person interview. I think they had 3 of those people and then I got the job. And why? Oh gosh. Yeah, you should ask Ben. Take a stab at it. Yeah, I think I do— this might sound weird, but I think I'm a really good assistant., and I, I like value that. I'm not trying to come in and use this as a stepping stone to be a head coach or like push my agenda. I have learned over the years, like, as long as I'm like working as a part of a positive organization, I feel really valuable. And so I think that was part of it. And then the second part is I, I can easily invest in people. And I think that was probably apparent in the interviews. That's like, I can be trusted, I can be, you know, reliable, that kind of thing.

Yep.

Was Flagstaff itself a draw? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I'm from like Glendale, Phoenix area, and no offense to the people who live in Phoenix, but I, I wasn't quite sure I wanted to move back into that heat. So, um, and brown desert. And so Flagstaff was a huge appeal that way, where I could be close— like, my sister lives in Phoenix, so I'm close to my family, um, but still reaping the benefits of a little bit of greenery and trees and of course altitude, which I had no experience with altitude before I got here. So that was another always learning piece of my career.

Yeah, yeah. So You know, one of the things that I don't know, just kind of is the story of my career is that I, I spend a lot of time around elite athletes and the people who coach them and sort of like learning from them. But I really serve, you know, the, you know, the recreational competitive crowd. That's who I coach. Um, and you know, for me, it's just been striking to see like, and you would think like, well, obviously, you elites are more maybe genetically gifted than everyone else, but they're like, there are also some sort of defining differences as like people, like, you know, I think you have to have a lot going on up here to get to the highest level. What's your, what's your take on that? Like, you know, just, you know, obviously everyone's an individual, but like, can you characterize like kind of what it takes mentally to get to the highest level?

I definitely can. I've been making this decision. Distinction over like the last maybe 5 or 6 years of my career. It started at Louisville because we had some high-level athletes there. We had an NCAA champion in the steeplechase while I was there, and then just people and other events, uh, track and field events. I learned a lot about pole vault, high jump, long jump, throws. Like, I would say consistent across those events and running, the number one thing that I've noticed is this is going to be like really unsexy, but it's true. Those high-level elites can remain level-headed, and that level-headedness is like a huge advantage. They don't get overly emotional in the highs or the lows. They don't let bad workouts dictate the outcome of an upcoming race. They don't let, um, making an Olympic team of course that's a defining moment, but it's also like they're still going to get out and run the next day. They're not like, oh, my dreams are over, I'm done, I'm never going to run another step. It's just, um, just this level-headedness that they approach problems and solutions with, and like the daily grind with, I think separates them from people who, um, may become a little bit too, too high or too low and then make decisions when they're in that place. Like, I'm never gonna do this sport again. I'm never gonna get anywhere. Okay. Well, maybe if you just give it a few days, cool off, and then like retroactively think about maybe a poor performance or like a challenging race, you might have a different, um, solution to what you just went through. And so I think the elites definitely embody that. Um, and then another quality I would say is just their ability to dig and like ask the most of themselves. It's a really hard thing to do. I do think you can practice it. I mean, there's definitely like an innate ability to go to a dark place of like hurting during a race, but you can practice it and you can get better at it. And I think those elite level athletes sort of enjoy it. They enjoy like, how far can I go today? How much can I ask of my body? How calm can I keep my mind during that process? Like, I think that really separates them too.

Yep. That, uh, that was a highly validating answer because it completely resonates with my, with my own experience.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, the talent helps also.

Yeah, but like talent alone just doesn't do the job.

Nope, especially not at this level. If you're not willing to dig and you're not willing to work and you're not willing to like work on yourself and that mental side and that emotional stability, your talent will get you only so far. Yep.

So, uh, taking it one step further, are there, um, Are there characteristic differences between male and female elite athletes that you observe?

That's a good question. I get asked this a lot and I, every time I'm not quite sure how to answer it. I think we're just people, you know, I think everyone has a different personality and like as a coach, I've really learned how to work with different personalities, what motivates you. What are you encouraged by? What are the things that you relate to and like uplift you? And maybe there's some commonalities sometimes between men and women, but for the most part, I think it's more of like an individual per person. Yeah. Yeah. Journey. Not, not by gender. Right. That's one thing I love about track and field, like being involved in not just distance running, but track and field as an entity. Typically you coach events first. You coach people first. Actually, this is like really good advice that I got from a coach at Louisville. You coach people first and events second, but never in there is listed— do you ever list gender? So most track and field coaches like coach sprints, and that's men and women, or distance, and that's men and women, or throws, and that's men and women. So probably one of the only sports in the world that does that.

Yeah.

Yep.

Very cool. Yeah. Veronica, I'd like to tee up a question from you if you're ready.

Oh, she's prepared on the phone.

Barely do I use electronic devices. One thing I was going to say was I was listening to your conversation and this is been a great conversation, but you've driven big buses and you've had to drive big lawnmowers in your career.

Yeah, that's the takeaway, really.

Not always glamorous.

Nope.

Um, um, so some of these are, um, they're not in any particular order, um, but I was curious about when you talk about the, the different athletes that you have and that you've kind of have to find what motivates them individually. So I was kind of curious, if somebody comes to practice and they're— you can just kind of tell their motivation is waning and they're not— that you can just tell, like, how do you help them get their head in the game?

What kind of tactics do you use? Yeah, I listen a lot. Yeah, just kind of pose the question of how they're doing, maybe. Or you're like, it's okay to call people out, you know, when you notice things instead of ignore them and just say, all right, I'm noticing exactly what you're saying, that you might not be quite yourself today. Like, what's going on? Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. It's something they don't want to talk about. This is another personality thing. Like, some people just want to not go there and just, I'm here for purpose, I'm here to run, it's my outlet. And like, they're able to get rid of all the other distractions in their life. So if you know that about them, then you maybe like dig into that and be like, all right, today's gonna be a good day and this is what we're gonna do. And this, you hone in on the training. But then other people, they might need to go home, and that's fine. I, I think you just have to leave judgment out of it and really focus on what that athlete needs. If they need space, you can't as a coach get mad at them for not showing up 100% motivated that day. Just give them space because it's overall the best thing you can do for them at the time. 23-year-old me would not have said that, so I'm glad that I've learned that over time.

And what are you, 25 now?

Yeah, I will not say my age on the YouTube channel. Do the math, it's in the bio.

Um, so I just want to say congratulations on the success of Lauren.

Oh yeah, thanks. For those who don't know, Lauren Higgins won the Grandma's Marathon in 2:25:55, just 38 seconds off the time I predicted for her here on live from Dream Run Camp.

I know my shit.

And I think the fourth fastest debut marathon for an American. Yeah, for an American. Yeah.

Um, we love our stats. Yes.

Stats fuel us. Yes.

We love the data. Yeah. So, so anyway, congratulations. Um, so she posted on her Instagram, I think today or yesterday, her 8-week buildup, like, and I was surprised at the low mileage. I just, in my mind, so I was kind of curious. Um, it's not what I expected. I expected to see higher mileage. So how do you approach volume, uh, with your athletes individually?

Yeah, exactly like that. I mean, like Lauren came out of college as a middle distance runner, successful one. She had run 2:02 in the 800 meters at Baylor. And she has been— she was a pro, kind of did her own thing for a while before even joining our team. I think she joined us when she was 33 years old. So a little bit later in her career. And, uh, I don't know, I feel like we just have a lot of like a wealth of knowledge on our staff. So like having Ben Rosario there who knows the marathon in and out and has coached, you know, all the marathoners that have come before Lauren, you know, like Alephine Tulyamuk and, um, Kellan Taylor and Steph Bruce on the women's side. Like who are still all on the team. Those were huge resources for her and for us. And then having Alan Culpepper be able to like pull from that and then, you know, pull from his own training and pull from Lauren's experience of she's not a high mileage person and she tends to get hurt when she goes over a certain mileage. So why would we even, if we already know those things, about her and she's spent a good amount of her career figuring them out about her body and her limits, then we're going to use that information. It'd be silly for us to say, oh, now that you're running a marathon, we're going to bump you up 30 miles a week just because that's what other people do. So for her, it was really like, let's get the volume of the session in. The volume of the marathon-specific work is important. Um, so she might have, you know, like, she might have, let's say, like a 12-mile steady state or a 12-mile tempo. That's a big day. And then that following day, she might run like 6 miles, and that's what she needs, and that's what her body needs. And clearly she benefited from that versus like, all right, the next day you're gonna do a 10-5 double or 12, 6, double, or, you know, whatever. I mean, certainly there's value in building the aerobic capacity of mileage, but we just knew for Lauren that that wasn't going to be the best way for her body to improve. So we had to kind of cap that mileage and then work within that mileage. I think we all kind of get a little bit too obsessed with the weekly number. It's just a number. It doesn't have to be exact, and you have to really just kind of listen to your body while still pushing your body. But hopefully that's why you have a coach that can maybe help guide you in that.

Yeah, um, just off that, just I was thinking, did she have any like doubts like, wow, other marathoners are doing 100 miles a week. You guys are only having me do this. I mean, how did you convince her that the plan that you guys had was going to work for her?

That's a good question. I think luckily for us, we did not have to convince her. She is a veteran athlete. Like I said, she joined us at 33, and she's— sorry, Lauren, if I get your age wrong— 35 or 36 now. 36. And so, thank you. Um, she knows her body really well. She's really— and she's really good at communicating. And this is, again, working with high-level athletes. Like, there was no doubt in our minds that this was the route to go, and she was in agreement. I think at this level it's a little more collaborative, you know, where like she's bringing to the table her entire career's experience, and she's a veteran, and she's easy to trust and listen to. So it was very much like, um, there was no convincing that needed to, to happen, you know. It was like, oh yeah, that makes sense, you know.

Um, and then just kind of one last, um, so what are some of the biggest challenges you faced as a female coach kind of in this male-dominated profession, especially because you coach both males and females?

Yeah, another good question. Challenges I faced, I think, was early on was just like trusting myself to coach men with my own personality, just being who I am, not making a big deal about it. It's, it's, it flows much easier than trying to be someone else just because I'm coaching men. Doesn't work. So that was a challenge early on. You know, luckily for me, I've had— I've actually had all male coaches my entire career, and they've all been extremely supportive and empowering and pushed me to be where I am today. But I'm definitely— I would say a challenge is like, I guess, more in the NCAA it's hard to break into the circle of coaches coaching at a high level that have been around for a long time that just kind of keep rotating jobs, you know, to like break in to that as a younger coach or a female coach was always difficult. The other thing that's really difficult is is just being pinned as a female all the time. Like, I just— to me, it like just doesn't matter. I mean, I do want to empower women and support women, and I think it's important to have women in leadership roles because of the perspective that can— they can bring is unlike any other. But I never enjoyed being pinned as a specific female coach. I'm just a coach and I'm coaching people. I'm not a female coach coaching women. So that was always like, I just, I never enjoyed being pigeonholed into that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you're welcome. Yes. Yeah, I feel somewhat convicted for asking about like the difference between coaching That's okay.

Male and female athletes, but like, it's just my perspective too.

Yeah, no, but it, it, I mean, it's, it's a really excellent point. And honestly, like a measure of progress will be when, uh, questions like these aren't asked in future interviews.

Yeah. I mean, it's good to talk about, but if I was a guy sitting in this position, you would never ask a guy like, how do you feel about coaching women? Or, you know, I just, I don't think it would even come up. Yep. So, yep. But it is good to like have a discussion about it and like, yeah, figure out we're all capable of coaching at a high level.

Yep. You need to change the conversation.

So you can't change the conversation.

Exactly.

Yeah. And this goes for many topics, you know. So bring it on, bring on the uncomfortable questions.

It's fine. Yep. Yeah. So yeah, last one before we, uh, we close out unless Lauren, you got one? Got one you've been dying to ask over there?

Um, I have a question. Yeah. So, so far on our Live from DreamRun Camps, one theme that we've had with both Lauren and Putsum is that they do what works for them, kind of like the mileage thing that Veronica brought up. Interestingly, you brought up the same thing in your role as a coach, so that's like a nice nugget of wisdom. But my question is What piece of advice would you have for aspiring coaches? I'm sure there are plenty of things.

Yeah, I think definitely don't be afraid to like reach out and ask for help and then also like build relationships with people around you. That's, I think that's what I was good at, but also very lucky to have people around me that wanted to, to help me and empower me and build relationships. So just, yeah, don't be a lone ranger. Like, ask questions, gain knowledge. If you're in track and field or you're in the NCAA, get outside of your event group. Like, 100%. That is— that helped me so much in my career to watch sprinters, to watch throwers, and understand the other events and understand mechanics and understand speed and power and how to apply that to like our world, um, which I'm very, very grateful for. So yeah, I would just say like try to build relationships and like maintain those relationships as you go through each year of your life.

Yeah, no problem. Excellent question. And, uh, and my closer for you is, um, I assume, like, you know, taking your profession very seriously, like, you hope to be better a year from now than you are, you know, today, and better 5 years from now than you are a year from now. Like, where does the— you know, if you could just pick one thing where improvement comes from more than anywhere else, is it learning more science, learning more people skills, just getting older and experiencing more and growing in wisdom?

It's definitely like the same note I was just talking about is like expanding your, your relationships with different coaches, which is kind of, was really hard for me early on because I was a bit shy and I didn't know how to like approach a stranger and say like, how do you train people? And it never really happened that way. It was more of just like in the circle of the NCAA or the ACC kind of running into like the same coaches over and over again. And Something as simple as like standing on the fence next to them during a 10K. So I have 30 minutes of time in between like the laps where we're yelling at people to actually gain quite a bit of knowledge from like how they do things. That was a big thing that I did. And then just like, I'm a big, I'm a big observer, so I don't have to always talk, but like Like, even now that I'm in Flagstaff and then we get to work out at NAU a lot, I don't necessarily talk to their coaching staff all the time, but I'm really cognizant of watching what they're doing and how coaches are interacting with their athletes. And yeah, just kind of like being a sponge and taking it all in. So that's, that was one thing. And I think the second thing is the athletes. Are teaching me constantly what works for them and what doesn't, how to change things, how to manage like a particular session at altitude if you've never been at altitude. That's like a, like a micro cycle or a micro, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Yeah, a small incident that you can, you can affect change. And then there's like the bigger picture of, um, how they're responding to the entire training cycle. And so you kind of have to like retroactively look back at your segments and see what went well and what didn't. Um, and then like in real time, also in the moment, be able to change things on the fly if you need to, which takes quite a bit of time and confidence and experience.. But just over time you can do it. Yeah.

Yeah. Right on. Yeah. Excellent. Excellent piece of wisdom to end on. All right though, folks, thanks for tuning in live or in recording. Thank you, Alison and the interns, Lauren behind the camera, Veronica with the best questions of the night. And thank you.

Yeah.

Hope to have you back sometime, especially when the pool is installed.

Yes, I'll be here. I want to see that. Right on. Yeah, thanks for having me out.

Right on.