Live From Dream Run Camp: Lauren Hagans on Moving Up to the Marathon

Welcome to the very first edition of Live from DreamRun Camp in Flagstaff, Arizona. You can't see who's here in person, but we've got some of our DreamRunners, folks who have come to spend some quality time training and learning at DreamRun Camp, as well as some esteemed guests. And our special guest, Lauren Higgins of the Hoka Northern Arizona Elite professional running team, um, who is, um, a veteran professional runner, highly accomplished, but a debutante at the marathon distance, training her for her very first marathon. And the reason I invited Lauren to be our guest for this first episode is like everyone who's run a marathon runs a first marathon at some point. So either like you, you remember that experience or your first marathon is still ahead of you. It's a It's a big step. Um, and so there's a lot to talk about with you, but I wanted to maybe focus a little bit on like how you're preparing for that step. Sound good to you?

Sure. Yeah.

Right on. Okay. Um, but let's, let's go, let's rewind a little bit and start at the beginning. Um, when and how did you first start running?

Um, I started when I was in high school, but a little bit later. So I started right before I turned 17. Junior. And, um, I played every other sport that there was to play except for soccer, the one running sport that people usually get funneled into, you know, cross country from. Um, but no, I played— like, I was on the Junior Olympic volleyball team. I was really into tennis. Um, my dad was a professional track athlete, but he did the pole vault. But, um, I just went to a really tiny school and we didn't have that sport until I was a junior. And just like growing up, you know, on the playground, like playing tag and like mini Olympics, and I also used to like steal bases in fastpitch softball pretty easily. People were just like, oh, you should try like running. And then I remember, um, yeah, my first day. So you know how, like, I think it's still like this in high school, like you have to have 5 people to score for your team in cross country. So we had— there were 5 people on the team and one girl was sick, so they asked me to fill in and ended up doing really well. And I did walk my first race because I just wasn't prepared for how hard it was and never having run really at all like that. And, um, but yeah, I mean, somehow like perversely fell in love with the hurt of it and I'm still doing it. So, um, yeah, so that's really how, um, I got started. And then Um, I did end up my senior year of high school pretty much like dropping every other sport and just focusing on that.

You sort of anticipated question number 2 a bit by mentioning— well, no, it's good— uh, by mentioning like, you know, falling in love with it. Because most people who, you know, start running at, you know, 17 and are still running at 36, there, there's a love story there, right? But sometimes with people who, you know, just are gifted and are able to run at a high level, it's, it's more like discovering a gift and then falling in love, uh, which happened first for you?

Oh, probably discovering a gift, I would say. Like, I just, I feel like, um, whether— I mean, I don't know, like, I just think just the first cross-country race and then being able to easily, like, just compete in high school. Like, I think, like, just easier, like, sometimes if you just feel like you're good at something, to, like, see, like, well, how good can I be? And then Um, cause I remember like, you know, this is how I feel every time I start a new like segment or training block after taking time off. Like it feels so hard, like the first couple of weeks, like getting back into fitness and like, it wasn't like, it didn't feel like super easy to me. It was just like, oh, this is really hard, but like I'm good at it. So, and then it kind of got to where like, oh, I was running a little bit more mileage and had more of those like, like endorphins after. Running. So like, I don't know, like I would probably say I think it just was going well and then I was just more curious about it. And also my high school coach had run for University of Arkansas, so he kind of, you know, could kind of like, like help me out with like what I was experiencing too. And, um, yeah, so yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but probably just, yeah, thought like, oh, I could be good at this at first.

Yeah. So, yep. Um, and with running with no ball, it like, it's just not as fun as other sports. So like often it's like, you know, the gateway drug is being competitive, right? Just like, wow, I could be good at this.

Yeah.

Um, at what point did you start to like dream big? Uh, and how big did you dream, uh, at that, you know, kind of that early stage in your running?

I mean, I think I was just really naive too because I just kind of thought like Oh yeah, like I've been— I've, you know, like I wanted to be an Olympian. Like, you know, I like— I literally was a walk-on in college and I went to, um, my college coach Todd Harper saying like, I think I could be— I think I could be an Olympian one day. And he was like, okay, because like my times in high school were just not like that impressive, but I just was undertrained. And so, um, I don't know, I was like probably a little bit delusional too, just because like I had no like really like— I mean, I don't think I even realized like what that actually meant. It was just like, oh, like I know like the Olympians are like the best athletes or whatever. So, um, yeah, but I mean, my dad was also like a very good athlete and was very highly ranked as a pole vaulter, so I think Maybe it was just my parents just instilling, like, you can do whatever you set your mind to. And my college coach also was just really influential in just kind of steering me towards the right direction with training. And he was actually my in to be a walk-on at Baylor University.

Yeah, that's a very interesting part of your story because you— A walk-on? Yeah. Well, what happened? After that, right? You know, so you, uh, I mean, there are a lot of universities that have a lot of walk-ons on their various sports teams. I would say statistically, probably few of them become multiple All-Americans, which you did. Um, and, uh, and so how did that happen? Did you just— was it, you know, more of like maturing or going from being, you know, undertrained to fully trained?

It's probably all of the above. I mean, I just think, you know, it's really hard to predict like talent and ability when you're, when you're younger. You, you don't really know, like you think, you know, like certain people will pan out, but then there are people that you just don't know because they haven't been developed or haven't been given the opportunities. But yeah, I think just because like I just started running at such a late age, um, I ran very little mileage in high school. And then, but that was, I think, my high school coach's design. So, you know, because I was really excited about it, but he didn't want me to get burnt out and before I even got there. And then when I got to college, um, again, like Todd Harber, um, he just, he did a really good job at developing, developing me and making sure that I wasn't just like overcooked, you know. And, um, yeah, I just think I just hadn't really Yeah, I just hadn't really done, you know, like different workouts, mileage, all of that. And then I do think some of it was just like, again, just being naive. Like, I just thought like, you know, I'll just do the work and then I'll be a national champion. I'm like, that didn't happen, but it was just kind of like, you know, that was kind of the mentality. Like, I'll just show up and why not me kind of thing. And really with no real basis because, I mean, my dad was a pole vaulter. He wasn't— it wasn't like we knew, like, anybody had any, like, aerobic talent in my family, really. So, um, yeah, I just remember, like, I just showed up to practice every day and did what I was told and took the little things seriously. And then I just got better and better every year in college. And I just— I think I could just kind of, like, expected that. But then I was also very fortunate to just be healthy throughout college, so I didn't you know, except for my— I had an accident in college, but, um, except, you know, I just didn't really have like stress fractures or even really tendonitis much or anything like that. It was just like a natural progression. Um, and then I saved all the injuries for post-college.

So yeah, but, and, uh, I think part of— I'm foreshadowing a little bit, um, but I think part of what interests me about your move up to the marathon is that, you know, you were kind of an 800-meter specialist.

I know it's like not very common.

It was like the shorter the better for you. I mean, you've got wheels. I mean, you're, you're very fast. You've probably got lots of type 2 stuff going on, uh, in your muscle fibers. Um, so yeah, for those who might be listening to this live or on recording who who don't know a lot about, about your history, um, you know, did you, did you like the shorter distances because they were shorter or, or because like that's— they seem to fit your like talent profile?

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I, I guess like to backtrack a little bit, in high school my first track race was a 200-meter indoor and I think I ran like 27, and so that was just like you know, just being a kid and like whatever, like didn't really know what to expect. But, um, yeah, I mean, I think like, um, which again, 27, it's like good, but it's not like, you know, a 200-meter, like that's not like top-end speed. But, um, yeah, like I, um, I just really like the 800 because it was short, honestly. Like I just, because I mean I would say as a cross-country runner, like, I did make like the national traveling teams, but it was not my forte in college. I was All-American one time in cross-country my senior year, but I think that was because I had finally like matured and I just had more mileage under my belt. But it wasn't like I was recruited for cross-country, right? Um, so yeah, I mean, I ran the 800 mostly through through college, and during cross-country season, I could not wait for track season because I didn't have to run that far, you know. Um, but then my senior year was— I focused on the 1500 and the 800, and I also ran the 3000. So it just kind of seemed like more of a natural progression for me. But I do remember my college coach trying to convince me to run like the 5000 the 3000 because I had always been good at tempos, but I was just like, I can't even conceive of running that many laps around the track. So I don't know, like, I mean, you know, like, people can tell you, but you just sometimes have to— you have to experience it for yourself. So I don't know. So, um, yeah, no one told me I'd be running the marathon though until like last year. Yeah.

Yeah. We're coming to that soon. So, you know, after, you know, post-Baylor, did the same pattern sort of repeat itself where like you go from walk-on to All-American to like the pro equivalent of walk-on to successful pro?

I would say like yes and no. I mean, I think like up and through college, I just kind of had this naivete about like, I just didn't know, you know, I just thought, oh, like, I should just be progressing every year, but I'd never dealt with like much adversity or like injuries or anything like that. And so I think, yeah, like, I did sign, um, a pro contract my— after my first year is out of college, so it was kind of like a semi-pro. And then I ran pretty well in the 1500 and like ran ran. I made the finals my first year as I'm out of college at USAAs in the 1500, and then I got like a really small contract with ASICS. It was my first one. Um, and yeah, and then so basically from that signing, um, I had some like pretty consistent years, and then I just ran into like a slew of injuries where it started with, um, I tore my psoas muscle, which is like, it's a stability muscle. Like, I think it inserts, I think it originates here and then like inserts into the back. So it's like, I don't know. So that just caused a lot of like chain issues where I just like couldn't stay healthy for longer than a few months. So I put together like, you know, promising training or like feeling like myself, and then I would go like months of like not being able to really train because it's just, just those like core stabilization muscles, it just kind of tends to— you're just running off. And so that honestly was probably like, I think it was like 4 years of just like not being able to get consistent training. And in those 4 years, like I did— that's when I PR'd in like the 800 meters. Like that's from— that's where my PR was, but I just was getting so burnt out of doing the same thing and still getting hurt. And then I honestly just kind of took a year of not really competing that much and just trying to figure out why I keep getting hurt and then just basically just running some mileage. So, yeah.

When healthy and able to train the way you wanted to train during this period, What was your training style? Did it remain a little bit like kind of on the low mileage leaning on intensity side?

Oh yeah. I mean, I think, um, well, it's because at, at Baylor I was very like, oh gosh, I mean, I probably was still like undertrained at, at Baylor as well. Um, but it was more like just steady mileage and like bread and butter stuff like tempos and fartlicks. And I just respond really well to that versus when I I left Baylor, I joined a training group that was just way more like track speed oriented, which like I have— I do have speed, but like I have to be strong to run really fast. And it was just like not quite as much, um, endurance as like I really need. Um, and so we were just— it was just, you know, it was great for like people who are pure like 400, 800 athletes. But for someone like me who's like, probably my strengths are more aerobic based, like, um, I just didn't know that or didn't want to accept that, probably. Um, yeah, like, uh, it was just— it just didn't work for me. Like, I was— we were on the track maybe— just works for some people, just not for me. But like 4 times a week we'd lift super heavy, and it just was like— it was just too much. Like, I just couldn't handle that. Um, and so that's when I just, you know, I mean, you can't just keep doing the same thing and expecting different results or like not to get hurt anymore. And so I just kind of had to take a step back and just figure out like, okay, like what got me to where I was really good? And it's just like being patient, like consistent training, not increasing your mileage or intensity too much too soon, things like that. And then I finally got to a place where, um, yeah, I was just feeling like healthy enough to like push the envelope a little bit. And, um, yeah, so then that's when I decided, yeah, I was just kind of burnt out on the 815 and wanted a new challenge. And that's when I started to try the 3000 and 5000. So yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. I can't help but wonder, you know, given where you are now in your career, if it, if it wouldn't have been in your best interest to go straight from Baylor to NAZ Elite. But that's—

that would have been so nice. But I just didn't even know about— I honestly didn't even know about, about the team until like— yeah. So, but yeah, who knows? Yeah, yeah, that's a good question.

Um, but tell us about that transition, how, how you ended up joining the team in AZ.

Yeah, so I guess I had been training, um, for the 5,000 and 3,000 indoors, um, really from— yeah, 2016 was my first 5,000 on the track. And so from '15, '16, '17, and '18, um, I did— we did pretty, pretty well. Like, I made quite a few national teams, um, not the Olympic team, but was still progressing, feeling strong. But, um, it just got to a point where, um, my reason for looking for a training group was I just was getting so tired of training by myself all the time. And I just, um, I started to take altitude training camps starting in 2017, and the first place I ever came to train was Flagstaff. And I had known Ben Rosario a little bit because he's from, he's a St. Louis guy and I'm from Little Rock. And so they're like a few hours away from each other. So he had tried to reach out to me to recruit me to come run the St. Louis, um, distance. Um, no way. Yeah. Festival of Miles in St. Louis. And I never, never actually got to go race, um, that meet at the time because for whatever reason. I think it just never quite fit into my schedule, but I'd like known of him. So when I came out here, I actually rented a room from Matt Yano, who was on the NAZ team at the time, and then reached out to Ben Rosario, and he just said, yeah, like, come join the team whenever you want for easy runs, like maybe some workouts. But then, you know, I didn't really do that because I had my own workouts to do. But, um, yeah, I came here and um, loved it, um, had no clue I would eventually move here at the time. But then yeah, every, every year since then I went to a new place for altitude. So I went to, um, I did Vail, Colorado one time. I did Mammoth Lakes, California. Um, I rented a cabin at 9,000 feet outside of Boulder one year, which was crazy, but one of the best things I've ever done. Um, just me by myself out in the woods.

That seems like an interview.

Yeah, that was actually like the best. I miss that, actually. Um, yeah, and I just started to notice, like, it's— yeah, like, what I love so much about taking these altitude trips is obviously, like, the scenery is beautiful, running a new place can be refreshing, but it was more that I got to link up with friends and competitors I had across the country. And I was just so like excited when I got to go on these trips. I usually did like 2 a year and I was like, I get to run with this person, you know. And then I was starting to think about that and I realized, yeah, like, I mean, they're my friends, but what is like, what's the real draw? And I think it was like, for me, like I just get so much joy and I just feel like such a sense of purpose training with my running, at least, like training with like other women, honestly, who have similar goals as me and mindset. Because it's just— there's just something different about like making that connection and then maybe going to battle against them but also with them. And so, um, yeah, I, I started to realize like I just wasn't like enjoying being by myself anymore, just training-wise. And I mean, and like, that's not to say, like, I was in Memphis, Tennessee during this time. Like, I had a great community of runners, but I just, I wanted like women that were competing at my level to invest in and cheer for as well. And so, um, yeah, I said then in 2019, I just decided like, I'm just like, I just feel like I might only have a few more years in the sport and I just want to explore like what my options might be and, you know, just say like I got— I squeezed everything out that I could. And to me, that was— I want— I think I'm pretty sure I want to join a group because I want to be like a part of a group, part of something. And so I started the process of looking for the right fit. And I remember like 2019, the fall, I went to, um, the US 5K Champs, which is in New York City. It's always like a couple days before the New York Marathon in November. And actually, my flight got really delayed, and I got in at like 2 AM to my hotel, like 3 hours before we were supposed to be in the lobby to get on the bus to the race. And so I did not do that great because I was— yeah, it was awful. But anyway, I don't know what— like, I was like I saw Ben Rosario in the lobby, and I'd always— I'd wanted to, like, talk to him about potentially, like, if there was a spot open on his team or to train with him or something. So I got his number and I texted him, was like, hi, I know it's New York and you're super busy, but if you have, like, 15 minutes, I'd love to talk to you about something. And then he met with me, and I remember I literally was, like, so nervous, I, like, sweat through my shirt, like, trying, like, talking to him. And like, not that he's like an intimidating guy, it was just like I was about to ask for something, and sometimes it's scary to ask for what you want, and you know, because people could say no. But, um, yeah, so he met with me and, um, we briefly talked, and he was, you know, apparently there was a spot that had just opened up because I think it was Aaron Clark had just left the team to pursue more trail running. Um, and so he had a spot and he was like, how do, how do you see this working? Like, would you do like a stint every like month or so and just have me train you? And I was like, no, actually, I think I would, I would move because if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it, you know. I'm gonna like, I want to just go all in and immerse myself and just see if, you know, like if it's, if it's a, a good fit and, and right for me. So yeah, that was, yeah, so the first week in November, and then I ended up moving. I got here on New Year's Day of 2020. 2020. Yeah, so yeah, so that's how I, I ended up here.

Right on.

Yeah.

Um, so that transition, you know, joining, joining NAZ—

example.

Yeah, joining NAZ Elite is something I experienced myself like in 2017.

Yeah.

And so I was like, you know, a lifelong, you know, competitive, um, you know, recreational runner. But, you know, I, I trained hard and I, I had my way of doing things. And then I'm here for, for 13 weeks and I'm doing whatever Ben tells me to do. You know, you had your parallel transition, you know, um, and so what was that like? Because like, you know, any good coach is going to try to meet you where you're at, figure out, you know, understand what works for you, understand your preferences. But things are going to change, right? That's kind of, that's kind of the point. So what, what did change in your training, uh, in that transition?

Yeah, I mean, so many things change, and I think that was kind of like why part of it was a gamble, because I was like, I really love the team culture. Like, I think like Ben and I would work really well together. Like, the training's very different than what I am used to, but like, I want to give it a shot and see. And I didn't even know if I was— I'd had like, um, like hemoglobin testing at Stintz before, so I knew I was a responder to a stint. But coming here for a stint is different than living here and training year-round. So yeah, it was definitely a gamble. And I honestly think the first year I was here was probably like a trial period for myself and for the team to see like am I really going to pan out, you know? And yeah, I mean, I would say like before I got here, or at least before I joined NAZ, my mileage was— I still, I still am not super high mileage, but, um, it was very low. I think I was running like 50 to 60 miles a week when I was in at sea level, and I'd never done any double runs like my long runs were probably, um, 12 to 13 at the most. And so when I got here, it was like I pretty much had, you know, like, I mean, Ben was good about easing me into it, and I feel like we had a very collaborative relationship as coach and athlete. Um, but yeah, like, he, he eased me into like 2 doubles you know, every week. Um, my mileage was higher. My long runs were consistently like 16 miles, and that's, you know, and think about that with the 7,000 feet versus— I think Memphis is like 200 or something. So, um, yeah, so a lot of things changed, um, but I responded very, very well to it. And yeah, I think I am one of those athletes to like— in which, and that's to say like, what if I'd been here longer? I don't know, because I think I have a cumulative response to altitude. Like, I do well just being up here and marinating, basically. Like, I don't even feel like I need to go down to Camp Verde or Sedona or wherever to like— I would have the same, you know, like, I just do better just consistently being up here at, at 7,000 feet.

Yeah. So So with that, you know, new— that new approach to training, um, did it make you better at the shorter distances? And maybe you're like a little more 5K focused than anything shorter than that. Um, you know, you weren't thinking about marathons yet, right? So, so like that training actually, even though you're running more, you're running more often, it was it was designed to make you better at what you were already specializing in.

Yeah.

And it did.

Yeah.

But did it, did it also make you discover the potential to race, to move up?

I think so. Yeah, I think so. Because, um, you know, I mean, yeah, I mean, and also like my workouts were way longer than they'd ever been before too, but I was like handling them very well. I think I'd just never done that before, so I didn't know, you know, and Um, yeah, I mean, definitely, like, in 2020, um, when I was with the first years of the team, I PR'd in the 5000 and set the team record at the time, which has now been broken by Abby Nichols, who just joined the team too. That record needed to be broken. It's like, from— it's 3 years old. I'm happy she got it. But, um, yeah, like, I think definitely, like, I just had a different level of strength than I'd ever had before. Like I remember, um, a lot of my 5,000s when I was training more at sea level, I would get to, you know, 3K and just feel like I was kind of on fumes at that point and like holding on. Whereas like in that, um, race, um, within easy in 2020, it was, I just felt like so, so strong and it was like a pretty tactical race and Kellan and I went 1-2 in that one, but Um, yeah, it was— I just felt like, yeah, like I wasn't like clawing my way the last 2K. It was more just like I felt more smooth and relaxed. But then, yeah, like my, um, you know, I think Ben and also Ben Bruce kind of like planted a seed in my head that like, you're doing more work than you've ever done. Like, you'd probably have a good crack at like a 10,000 or like a half marathon too. And then So I just feel like, um, maybe it's just also just getting fitter, um, feeling and feeling more confident. But yeah, like, it just kind of seemed like a natural progression to go from, okay, like, you've run your 5,000 PR now, but the way you've done it is way more strength-oriented. So take a crack at these events. And those went well too. So, yep. Yeah.

So I mean, it's one thing to move up to the 10,000, but in a marathon, like, you've already run 20 miles when you— sorry to remind you— you know the math, right?

So, yeah, I'm trying not to think about it.

So, like, when and how did you make the decision to move all the way up to the marathon? And for those who don't know, which marathon are you doing and how many days do you got?

I don't even know if I know that. So, okay, so I picked— we picked Grandma's Marathon as the first, as the debut, and it's in— it's on June 17th, which is a Saturday. So I think it's like 4 and a half weeks, 31 days, something like that. I don't know. Um, but yeah, honestly, like, I— since I've been running, I ran my first half marathon in 2021 in December, and then I just ran the US half championship in February of this year. And I just feel like those have gone so well, which I know the half can be vastly different than the marathon. It's twice the distance, but it's like, I—

it's more than twice.

Yeah, okay, more than twice the distance. And so I don't know, like, I'm honestly like, I just am excited for a new challenge and I'm really trying to not like overthink it and trying to just kind of like take it day by day and hopefully mile by mile once I get to that Saturday in June. Um, yeah, like, I don't know, I, I, I don't really like thinking too much about it because I just kind of— I do better, especially like when I'm at practice and most of my races, like I kind of do better just approaching it almost like any other day, at least mentally and emotionally, and then just going and trying to execute. I actually don't do very well when I have a lot of emotion tied to something. I more just kind of want to go in and just kind of get the job done, kind of. I don't know how I'll— I mean, I'm sure I'll have some emotion when I get there. I'll probably be nervous the day before, the morning of, but I, I do remember, um, I don't know, I just, I get a lot of like confidence and like assurance and calmness from just like executing day in and day out and just trying to just stay within that, that mindset. So, um, you can't really predict how you're going to feel once the day gets here, but it's also like, I just, that's how I approached my half marathon and I had really good success doing it that way. So I just don't know why that should change just because the distance is longer. And I, you know, um, so that's kind of how I'm approaching it right now.

It seems like a good, healthy— good, healthy approach.

I want to have some healthy respect too for it though, which I did not in my first, you know. Yeah, like, I think it's good to feel like I'm doing the work, like it's going well, like I belong there, but also have healthy respect as far as executing, like not trying not to go out too fast, you know, and just being patient when it gets here. So, um, yeah, that's kind of where my head is at right now, I guess.

So here's your opportunity for the, uh, for those who, um, you know, are contemplating a similar move, you know, that, that, that first marathon. What are you doing? Is there anything you can offer that, you know, that has changed that is now specific to marathon preparation that you do draw confidence from? It's like, okay, I've started doing this and I think it's one of the reasons I'm going to have a successful first marathon.

I mean, honestly, like, I'm not sure about like, I don't know. I think for me, when I first started my marathon block, it just seemed like kind of inconceivable. Like, I don't like, I, literally have not run over 19 miles ever, and that was like 2 years ago. And I think just like the more I've gotten into the training, and it's just been, it's kind of been like stepping stones, you know, like I did 18 a few weeks ago, then I did 20 2 weeks ago, then 22, or sorry, yeah, 20 2 weeks ago, 22 this past Sunday. And like it kind of, it seems daunting, but like thinking about just like, I don't know, just like bridging the gap between these workouts is easier in my head versus I just kind of had to get into the training. I think like I'm feeling more confident about it and more excited about it as I like just get familiar with it. You know, I think some of it is just like that kind of unknown, like how am I going to handle, you know, 26 miles? I've only done 20, 18, whenever. But my 22, I was actually on my feet for 2 hours and 40 minutes. And, um, I think I picked like probably the hardest route I could have in Flagstaff. And maybe that was good or bad, but, um, you know, now I kind of feel like I kind of know— I'm— that was 5 weeks out, and I kind of know like how it feels to like be on my feet for that long, at least. Whereas like I didn't really know that before. And yeah, it felt pretty hard. But, um, yeah, just like in my head, just taking it like just chunk by chunk instead of just going, oh my gosh, I'm supposed to run 26. And, you know, like, whatever. It's just been kind of like breaking it down to where it just seems more manageable in my, in my mind. And I mean, and then the only other thing different has been like practicing fueling and, and races, which that, that seems harder to me than the actual workouts right now. Just like having, not having my stomach blow up. But I think we, we've started, we've kind of started small with that too. Like I started with just water for a long run, then I, which I, I already do that, but, and then I started with, and then I, I went to taking electrolytes on like a hard, like a 10-mile tempo. And then I progressed to a carb solution during my first 20-mile long run, which I'd never done before. And then last week we did a carb solution every 3 miles, um, for my 22. And then this week I have a 12-mile tempo, so now I'm going to try actual carbs while I'm actually running faster. And so it's just, again, it's just been kind of like a natural progression with some forethought before, you know.

So, Bill, are you taking notes? This is—

is it hard for you, the feeling?

Just long runs?

Long, long runs are the hardest thing for me. Like, they're so hard. I'm like novice.

I didn't know you were supposed to fuel.

Yeah, I knew, but I never— I didn't really pay attention to it until like a few weeks ago. I thought I was fueling wrong. Oh, uh-oh. Like too little?

Wrong stuff.

Oh, like protein?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

And also procrastinating on the long runs because they were daunting. So that, that stepping stone approach, like, this is like, this was all for you, Bill.

Uh, yeah, they're nerve-wracking. I find the straight long run to be more nerve-wracking than the actual workouts just because I think you're just, you're just out there for so long. It's just like the mental focus it takes. I think that's what's been like the hardest thing for me to get used to, even though the paces are a bit slower than like half marathon training, 10K. Like, yeah, it's just like the— like just concentrating or being alone with your thoughts too for that long. Yeah. So, yep.

So, uh, of the two, your half marathon PR is, uh, 1:09:46, I think. So, yeah, somewhere around there.

So we're in the 40s.

So I love these online calculators. So I went online, I punched that number in And I just found, you know, it's just, it's just one, one calculator's opinion, but the, some equivalence, some for that, for 800 meters and 2 flat 0.9. So is that, is that faster or slower than your PR?

That's faster than my, than my PR.

Exactly. How about, uh, the mile? 4:26 faster or slower than your PR?

That's faster.

Yep. 15:05 for 5,000 meters. Faster or slower than your PR? But not by much. None of these are by much, right?

No, it's like a few seconds off.

And then 10,000, the equivalent is 31:26. Faster or slower than your PR?

Faster.

Yep. All, all faster. So this tells me you should have been doing this all along.

Um, yeah.

But, and then finally, No, go ahead.

Oh no, nothing. You go.

So here's the cherry on top.

Okay.

So do you know what the marathon time equivalent for this is?

Uh, 2:25:17. That would be wonderful.

Does that sound pretty good?

I would be so happy with that. Yeah. Well, yeah. And we haven't even talked about like— it's so funny because like we have not even talked about like how fast like we think I can run, but like I mean, like, you kind of know, like, okay, your paces. And then, like, I know that I have a pretty big conversion to sea level up here, at least from Lake Mary, just based on, like, how my half marathon training has gone and then my halves corresponding. But, um, yeah, it's really interesting too because, like, with the half marathon I ran in February, I ran like 4 seconds off my alt, my PR, and it was just a much harder course than, than the, than where I set my PR. So it's like, I don't even know, I'm just going with like whatever, like, like get me in practice and it feels hard. So yes, yeah, but it's looking good. Yeah, I mean, that would be wonderful if that was the debut. I would be very happy.

Right on.

Yeah, cool. Um, hope I get a tailwind. Great. Because it's like, it's like a point-to-point race. It's just like straight shot.

Mother Nature will decide.

Yeah, I know. Well, if it's windy, we know how to do that too, because I picked the windiest time of year to train for my first marathon.

Pile it on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, any questions from our live audience? This is a great opportunity to, uh, pick the brain of a very high-performing soon-to-be marathoner. So who's helping you with your training now? Are you coming up with this on your own?

No. So, um, NAZ, we have a head coach, Alan Culpepper, and so, um, he's been coaching us, um, since— I believe— I think he's been coaching— he came on to NAZ last summer, so I think it's been since maybe July. So like, I'm definitely not coming up with this on my own. I mean, I actually am also a coach. Like, I do own my own coaching business, and I've had that for about 6 years. Um, but, you know, I mean, yeah, like, I don't— I have coached myself in the past and it's gone fine, but I love the luxury of just having someone, like, do the thinking for me, and all I had to do was show up and just do my best on the day, you know. Um, and so, yeah, no, so it's Alan Culpepper right now. Yeah, yeah. When you do your long runs, it sounds like you're forced to do it yourself, but do you go— do you have any— oh, our team. So I mean, we have practice probably like every Sunday. We get an email and it tells us where to be on what day. So it's like all of us, like, um, we usually meet for like workout days, one or two maybe easy runs that involve like just drills and strides and core work after, and then our long runs. So like, yeah, like I'm usually, I'm usually not by myself and just so quick. Yeah, I mean, though, like I did this run for— so my first 22 on Sunday, um, the, the training has had definitely caught up to me and I felt so fatigued and I was like, oh no. And I, so anyway, I picked this route called the A1 Lollipop, which is It's 20.8 miles, um, and there's, um, there's just like this monster hill in the middle that is just like soul-sucking. And I've never done this route before, and I was like, oh no, why did I, why did I pick this for my first like really long run? But then like it was a bit demoralizing, honestly. Like I haven't had a run like that that felt that bad in a while, but I think it might have been a good thing because Like, I mean, the marathon, like, I'm, you know, hopefully I'm pleasantly surprised, but I'm expecting it to get really hard and to hurt at some point, you know. And, um, but no, like, I had, I had Kellen and, um, Kellen Taylor, um, who actually has the course record at Graymas, the one I'm gonna go run, um, it's really fast. And so, um, her and Emily Durkin who's another local runner for Adidas, and, um, Abby Nichols on my team. And so they ran with me for the first 9, and then I did have the last 13 solo, but, um, our assistant coach Jenna Reedon was crewing me. So she— these are like wide Forest Service roads. Um, I'm not sure where you guys have run yet so far here, but not yet.

A1?

Okay, A1. It's really hard. Um, yeah, but, um, basically like she just every 3— so in the marathon, I— is what I hear, you get water, like fuel, every 5K. So she was driving with us and, um, just followed me for the whole loop and every 3 miles got me water. And, um, yeah, so like, I mean, I hardly— and that's what's kind of cool about Flagstaff, like if you don't want to, you don't have to probably run anything by yourself. Well, you know, I like prefer to be with people the majority of the time, but sometimes I need solo runs. But I, for my long runs, I'm like, please, I want company, you know, because I guess I could have brought like my headphones and listen to music or something, but I just feel like I'm not gonna do that in my race, so why would I, why would I prepare that way, you know? Um, but yeah, it's like much more helpful to have just like people around me for sure. So, so what is the course record right now? It's 2:24:28. So it's exactly— I'm pretty sure it's right at 5:30 pace. So she— Kellan, I think that was also the year— I think like, I think that was the Boston year, or it was so cold, the one that Desi won.

Yeah, that's right. And then she like 6 weeks later—

yeah, because she got like hypothermia, she had to like drop out of often, like so many people did because of the conditions. And then yeah, she like regrouped and came back and then set our team record and the course record in Grandma because it's Kellen. Yep, you know Kellen.

That's not how the story was gonna end.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's good. It was good. Yeah, yeah. Um, so on that A1 run, when things did start to get really hard, can you kind of about mentally how you approach that and how you got through it? I think I just kind of said like, well, this sucks, but like, I mean, it might be like this in my marathon, so I just got to keep going. But also like there's something about like, like, so I had only done— I did 20 the week before and I started to really feel it at like 18, right? Just, and like I just, and it wasn't— I didn't have like a pace. I was just kind of running like what I felt was smooth. But I think just like the cumulative effect of all the training, all the workouts, like, I feel like every week I'm like, this is the most I've ever done, you know? And it's like every week I'm saying that, um, which is probably normal when you're doing your first marathon. But yeah, like, I just got to 19 and also thought like, oh, I'm only 1 mile away from like the longest run I'd ever done last week. And then it was almost just like this new goal, like from 20 to 22, like 'Oh, you like— of course this is hard, you've never run this far before.' So I was just like, I don't know, just thinking about it that, that way, just trying to like think of something to like be more motivating. And like, yeah, running somewhere new, going somewhere new is motivating to me. So that's how I got through that one. Um, yeah, it just was— it wasn't like— it didn't feel easy at all, which is— I think it's good. Like, and then I've actually like talked to a lot of people in the past few days about that run, and there are— and a lot of people have told me, like, I think it was great that you didn't feel good in that run, because, like, you're not supposed to feel great all the time, like, especially when you're in marathon training. Like, it's supposed to be hard. And, like, yeah, like, if you're not— if something doesn't feel— if everything feels too perfect, like, you're probably not training hard enough, almost. And, um, you know, within reason. Um, but yeah, like, I feel like that feeling I had it on that route is probably similar to how I'm going to feel. So I think it was actually a blessing. Um, just to kind of— I mean, it's— it was much slower than I'm going to be running at Grandma's, but definitely, like, the effort was, I think, right.

So can you take us through a normal training day as a professional athlete in the cycle? Like, wake up, what you do in the morning before you run?

Yeah, I mean, I really like my routine. If we— I guess that kind of depends— excuse me— depends on if we have practice that day. Like, usually, like right now, because it's getting a little hotter, we've started to meet at 8:30 when we do have practice. So like, I like to get up at, um, like 6:30, like about a couple hours beforehand. And I mean, usually I just— I'm in that statistic of Americans that makes a pot of coffee right when they wake up. So drag myself downstairs and do that. Um, I don't really like have the same thing every day for breakfast. Um, usually it's bike. Um, I hate oatmeal. Sorry, I just— I can't do it. It's— yeah, I know that's like runners. I just think it's just boring to me right now. But then I'm just so weird because I've started to have like white rice, which is boring too, but like, I don't know, something about it. I just think it's more satisfying than oatmeal. I don't know what it is. But anyway, I'll have like white rice and like a banana or like I don't know, um, I'll make muffins for the week usually and just like freeze them and like pop them in the microwave. Anyway, random, but yeah, so I have breakfast, I play with my dog, um, I might read in the morning, um, I might write some training plans for my athletes, and then I go to practice. And usually that's 1 to 2 hours depending on whether it's an easy run or workout, and then I come back and have second breakfast or lunch, or maybe go out with people somewhere for brunch. And then, um, I'm a big napper. Like, I usually— I have to set an alarm though, because I will— I can sleep like no one's business. Like, that's, that's literally probably my superpower. It's like, I don't know, I like literally can sleep like 9 to 11 hours a night and like be no problem. Um, and yeah, like I kind of just spend my days like either hanging out with my friends or roommates or like working on my business. Um, yeah, and then honestly, like the days that we do not have practice too, I don't set an alarm the night before and that's when I'll sleep like 11 hours a night. So Yeah, I can't stay awake up here either. Sometimes I'm like, I'm like kidding about the superpower. Sometimes I'm just so tired, I just can't. But yeah, that's basically like, I mean, yeah, it's not like super exciting, but yeah, I love it. And then I have an Australian Shepherd, so play with him. Yeah. Twice. Yeah, so I actually did that this morning after our easy run. Um, and I don't really lift like super, super heavy. Like, I lift like a moderate amount and mostly— so I also have chronic sciatica, so a lot of my lifting is geared towards just keeping that in check because that seems to be the source of the majority of my injuries last few years. Um, and so like I just focus a lot on like weighted trap bar, um, like mostly deadlifts. And, um, and then it's just like, um, like stability stuff, like single leg balancing, adding weight, adding a mobile board, um, things like that. I do a lot of like mobility work outside of the— of like our weight sessions too. Um, right now we're doing like Wednesday, Saturday, but they kind of let us move it around depending depending on like when our workouts are. I don't know. I kind of feel like maybe with my background and I actually have done a lot of Olympic style lifting and I just, I don't lift near as heavy really like as I used to when I was training for the 800. And so none of the weight, like it, I just don't feel like for me personally, I don't think it matters when I'm doing these lifts because I'm not, I'm just not doing enough. But sometimes you are just so neurally fatigued after like hard workouts that like sometimes I don't want to go lift like right after because I, I won't even be able to like balance, you know. So, um, yeah, that's kind of up to our discretion right now, but twice a week typically. Some people do more than that. That's just what works for me, twice a week.

Anyone else? Now is your chance. I had a question. Do you know exactly when your marathon training started? Did you start at the beginning of this year? Spring?

Yeah. Um, I feel like as far as like my marathon specific workouts and probably it's, it will, so. From Grandma's, it would be like an 8-week block. So it's actually not super long. It was supposed to be 9, um, but that first week I got some kind of bug that was going around, and like, I just had no energy, and I was just like, I'm already pretty fit from my half marathon training. I'm not, I'm not gonna start like my block right now. Just like kind of was like, took a, you know, like Yeah, I didn't want to do that, so I just kind of ran easy that week and just kind of kept some of the mileage up for me. Um, but yeah, like, I, I feel like I was— that's when, like, my workout specifically started was 8 weeks out. But I was already— it wasn't like I was starting from scratch. Like, I'd already had, like, a really good base and, like, was already really fit from the previous training. Um, So yeah, it's kind of hard to say, you know, like it wasn't like I just like took a huge break and then just like ran 4 weeks of easy and then started doing workouts. It was like more than that. So, you know, I guess you could argue it'd been, I don't know, way more than 20. I don't know. A lot.

So 20 years in one respect.

I know. It's so weird. It's like, it's so funny. Cause like I've been like pretty high mileage compared comparatively to a lot of other pros, but I now— it's like, I don't know, like now I have like this lifetime bank of mileage under me almost, but I'm still like— I mean, I hit my highest mileage last week and it was 85. So, and you know, I know so many marathoners run so much more than that, but it just— for me, it didn't feel like it was like smart for me to just be like, oh, you have to run 100 miles a Like, I just don't think that, you know, maybe I'll get there at some point in my career, but right now it just didn't really make sense to do that.

So yeah, that's enlightening. I mean, yeah, I mean, I, I ended up running a little bit more than that in my peak week of marathon training, just as, just as Joe amateur, but you have to, you have to tailor the training to you and not just put an arbitrary target out there.

Yeah, and I think, like, this is just my personal opinion, but I, I feel like 100 miles a week has just gotten this kind of like, that's like the standard, you know? And like, maybe that's— I just don't think that everybody needs to fit that mold, and I don't think that I fit that mold. And when I, you know, I mean, literally until like this past spring, I had only run like still, like, I might have hit 75 once or twice even with NAZ. And so I just didn't think it made a lot of sense for me to jump from 65 to 100. Like, I think that's a good way for me to get injured, which, if I'm injured, I'm not racing. So, you know, if I'm a little underbaked, I'm, I'm underbaked, but I, I'm gonna be on the start line. So yeah, that's kind of how I saw it. And Alan agreed with me, so I trust Alan. Like, I'm like, good, we're on the same page.

Right on. Yeah, I'm always preaching the virtues of discipline and restraint and judgment with athletes and sort of beating the drum that like the pros make smart decisions. And you're exemplifying that, right? You know, just like you have the time, you're surrounded by people who tempting you maybe to think that you need to do more, but still just like saying, no, I'm tuning all that out. I mean, doing what's right for me.

And I think that's kind of like, there's like pros and cons of being in such a running mecca like Flagstaff, you know, because I'll run with other athletes and like we talk about training and it's like, it's very, very easy to like get sucked in or like second guess what you're doing. And so, um, Yeah, I don't know. I just, I feel like, I don't know, I just think that's like more interesting. I'm like, that's cool, and then I'll still do what I'm doing.

So yeah, maybe that's your superpower.

Maybe. And I mean, I think it makes sense, you know, maybe if I do this first marathon and I'm going like, oh, I just felt like really gassed at like whatever, then, you know, um, we can adjust and like you can always like smartly add more later. But for my first one, I think this is perfect.

She's already talking about her second marathon, folks.

I hope— well, I hope I'm— I already qualified for the trials. I better have a second one.

Okay. Yeah, fair.

They let you qualify with your half time, so I already have. So I'll be at, you know, hopefully I'll be at the trials in Orlando as well.

Right on. Well, we will be rooting for you in Grandma's and beyond. Well, can't thank you enough taking some time out of your Thursday, of course, to share with us. Um, thank you in the room for your questions. Thank you watching for, uh, taking part. And yeah, let's have a little round of applause for Lauren Higgins, everyone. All right, uh, that is it for the debut episode of Live from Dream Run Camp, presented by 80/20 Endurance. Boom!