Live From Dream Run Camp: Matt Baxter

The conversation evolves, just give me the old wink or one of these or whatever it takes, or just blurt it out. It's fine. We're super casual.

Nice.

Yeah, I'm just like, well, he kept talking.

I thought you were done.

We need some kind of like, it needs to be a little more.

Yeah. All right.

Welcome to episode number whatever of Live from DreamRun Camp sponsored by 80/20 Endurance and hosted at DreamRun Camp here in Flagstaff, Arizona. Um, we have a house full of runners again. We had a little bit of break in the second half of August, which was, I guess, um, you know, okay, but I'm much happier when there are runners here. Our most recent arrival is our first international runner, all the way from Colombia, Jesse, who is going to ask a question later. He'll come up with one. He might ask it in Spanish and Matt will answer in English, probably.

At least I can.

Yeah. So, this is Matt Baxter, a graduate of Northern Arizona— well, from New Zealand, made a name for himself as a young runner there, earned himself scholarship to Northern Arizona University here, kicked ass here, was a member of 3 national championship-winning cross-country teams, graduated and moved right on to a professional contract with Hoka Northern Arizona Elite, the local premier pro team, and is now an author. Uh, go ahead and brandish your book. So this is, this is, this explains the time Matt was going to be a guest on Live from Grandma and Camp, but the timing, was determined by the publication of this book, Running Up the Mountain, like a giant subtitle.

Uh, go ahead. Yeah, uh, Running Up the Mountain: Northern Arizona Altitude, Lumberjack Attitude, and the Building of a Distance Dynasty. There we go.

It's long but not too long.

No, yep, I agree.

Yeah, probably put a lot of thought into that.

I didn't, but someone did.

Yeah, someone did. Uh, well, you had something to do with this book, right?

For sure. Yep. So me and, me and Rom Mann co-authored it together. Rom Mann was a coach at NAU from 1980 through to 2004. He was also an athlete on the NAU team from 1968 to 1972. The program began in 1965, so Rom basically knew the history from almost the beginning. He was looking for someone to help him write this book, and he ended up reaching out to me and So we spent a bit over 2 years, 2 years, 7 months from the first time he, he contacted me until we got the, the finished copy, uh, working on this thing, putting it together. And yeah, we just finally got— we got copies just a few days ago.

Right on, very exciting. And they smell fantastic. I'm just gonna indulge one more time. Yeah, can't beat it. So hopefully there is an e-reader. I think you were asking— gotcha. That we— I said promise no gotcha questions, but like, I—

that's something we've definitely discussed and that's something we'll plan to do. I just I don't know an exact date on that.

Yeah, but the hardcover does exist. It smells fantastic. You cannot get the smell from an audio or an e-version, so highly recommend that you pick this one up and enjoy both the words and the scent of the book. Um, rewinding a little bit, we'll dive deeper into the book for sure, which I have read. Um, I got to read it in— well, in all honesty, I didn't finish it until right around the time we were gonna— I had come up with a list of questions for the interview, but like, I supply— I read enough to supply a Herb and was really impressed because you just don't know, honestly. A lot of people write a first book and you're like, I hope this is your last book, but not you. Um, but, uh, before we delve deeper into the book itself, um, how did you end up here in Flagstaff?

Yes.

Yeah. And, and yeah, but I think it was, it was, you weren't here before NAU, it was for NAU.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I, like, I didn't come over to to the US to start college over here until I was 21. I was a bit of a late bloomer in that respect, and it made it really hard to get offers from colleges because straight out of high school I had offers and it would have been great to come over, but I just wasn't— and it just wasn't the right time of my life to consider doing that. I just didn't really have much of an interest in it. And then, so yeah, it wasn't until I was 21 that I started reaching out to people, and my options were very limited because once you're a few years out of high school, their expectations are a lot higher, right? And my times just weren't quite good enough to be getting attention of a lot of colleges. And so I had really positive feedback from 2, maybe 3 colleges, and then 2 of those kind of fell off. And it ended up basically NAU was my last and only option, and it ended up being the best one. I mean, we won 3 national titles and I had an incredible career with them. Um, yeah, so I came over a little bit late, but I got to still spend 3 years at NAU, and 3 amazing years. And yeah, it was, it was definitely a special time.

So did you actually, um, not exactly know what you were walking into?

Um, not at all, definitely. I, you know, it actually helped because there was a guy, Jordy Beamish. A lot of people might know Jordy Beamish, but if you don't, I mean, he just got 5th at the world champs in the steeplechase, his first season doing steeple. He's another New Zealand runner. Dude is absolutely amazing. Check out the Coffee Club pod, check out On Running, all of that. You'll see him there. Uh, I don't want to blow up his head too much, but he's a good dude. And he, he was my point of contact at NAU because he had already been there for a few months. And so I reached out to him and said like, hey, I'm looking at NAU, what do you think of the school? And he was really hyping it up. And so I ended up committing and I was excited about coming to NAU. And then it was the year that NAU didn't make nationals. And you can read about this in the book, it was a crazy time. But you know, you didn't make nationals. I remember reaching out to Jordy and saying like, you told me this was a good school to come to and these guys can't even make nationals. Just because, I mean, there was— they were a ranked team and they've been podiuming and stuff in years past. And so I thought like, what am I walking into? I have no idea what it's going to be like coming to altitude. I have— I know basically nothing about Flagstaff. I didn't know how cold it can get here in the winter. I didn't know how dry it can be at times as well, particularly in the winter, uh, because I, I came here early January and it was freezing cold and it was covered in snow. And, and so I didn't— I pretty much didn't even really touch the trails for a couple of months. And so yeah, there was, there was definitely a shock, but once everything started clearing and I spent a— it was really a few months of getting over that culture shock and everything, and then once I got settled, I mean, I just loved it here. Right on. Yeah. Cool.

So I mean, you know, so yeah, so there was a little bit of like, you know, you know, beggars can't be choosers, you know, this was like your, you know, your best and kind of only opportunity here. But also, I mean, I mean, you initiated this for a reason, you must have had ambitions and dare I say dreams that like you, you were not hoping just to fill a roster spot and get a degree and be one among many. But, um, can you talk about like what, what you were hoping to achieve personally? Because before you're part of a team, yeah, it becomes the team, something bigger than you. But like before that happens, it's you looking after yourself and wanting to get somewhere. Where did you want to get?

I, I honestly, I don't, I, I don't know exactly. I can't, I can't exactly remember. I just remember when I started reaching out to colleges, I was just in this weird point in my life where my studies were going really well and I was putting a lot of time and effort into that area back in New Zealand. And my running was going really well as well, but I just wasn't being pushed. And it just, it was basically the competition that was— if I look back on it now, it was competition that I was seeking.. And I just wasn't quite getting that. I just wasn't quite being pushed like how I wanted to in New Zealand. And so I had a big— I mean, my, my girlfriend Emily can attest to this. It was a really rough period when I had kind of made that decision of like, I want to pursue going to the US. I didn't know if that meant— me and her have been together for 4 years at that point. We've been together since we were 16. It's going to be 13 years this September, but whatever. And so we've been together for 4 years and I'm like, I'm just not happy here right now. I want to look at trying to go to the US. I didn't know if that meant we could come over together. I didn't know what that would mean, um, but I just knew I had to do it. And so I canceled all my classes. It was a semester shy of graduating, so it was kind of a big deal for me to come over here. And so I put everything into it, and for a second it looked like it was going to really backfire because I just wasn't getting the responses I thought I was going to get. Yeah. And then it ended up working out. I went to NAU. Emily went to NAU as well. We both— Eric Hines, I mean, I can't thank him enough. He was the coach at NAU during the time that he coached. Uh, he took both of us on, on full scholarship, and I And yeah, I can't thank him enough for doing that because we're still together. We have an amazing 3-year-old son, Miles. Uh, we still live in Flagstaff, and yeah, it's, it's like the dream come true. Happily ever after. Yeah, exactly. And so I think, yeah, to, to go back to your original question, I mean, yeah, I think I was just looking for competition. I was just looking to be pushed, and I really wanted to prove when I finished high school that I could make it as a runner back in New Zealand. And I really tried. I mean, I, I was putting everything into it, but I also spent a year where I was hurt and couldn't figure out what was going wrong. And I think it just, it just didn't plan out how I thought it was going to, and then I just knew I had to change something up, and coming to NAU ended up being that thing.

Right on. Um, so tell us a little bit about your history as a writer. So, I mean, you didn't take credit for this awesome subtitle. Yep. But I know you had a lot to do with the words, uh, in this book, and it is like, the writing is excellent. Um,, and I don't say that lightly. And so I imagine that writing— I mean, you know, Ron was looking for someone. You were the someone. You know, you had to have brought something to the table as a writer, someone who had a certain level of skill, a certain level of interest, a certain level of experience.

So just bracketing the running piece, tell us about, um, your life story as a writer. Yeah, definitely. So I, I've always had an interest in writing, like just going back to my, uh, I guess elementary, middle school, high school. I'm trying to think of your guys' names for them. Um, I would say primary school, intermediate, high school. But yeah, even going back that far to when I was younger, I just, I just always enjoyed writing. I enjoyed speaking as well. So doing presentations, doing speeches, I think that was where I really thrived with my writing, was writing speeches. When I was in high school, I won like the school speech competition 2 years in a row, got second. Third year I should have got first, but that's just— I'm still bitter. No, no, it was— I just really enjoyed doing those presentations, writing them, and I just always kind of did well in English. It just came easy to me, whereas other subjects were really hard for me. I mean, math was really hard, science, everything, just about everything else. I just didn't apply myself very well. I wasn't really interested in it. But the writing was just always something I enjoyed, and I really— I attached a lot of my self-worth to that. I always wanted to make sure if I put in a piece of writing that it was something that I could be proud of. And so that's— yeah, especially in high school, that was where I really started focusing on that. And then went through university and started improving on my riding, specific types of riding, as you have to do in class. And same with when I came to NAU, trying to perfect that a little bit more. And then I, I wrote a diary about 2017, uh, NCAA cross-country season where I got second as an individual and our team won. And I ended up putting that out in the world. The writing of it is pretty poor. It was— it's a diary, so I just really quickly jotted things down. In hindsight, I probably should have edited it more, but I also didn't know exactly how something like that could read better. I just thought, oh, this is just a diary, it'll be fine. In hindsight, I wish I did edit more of that. So that was the first time I put a piece of my writing out in the world, and I had like, I had some good responses from it. People were, uh, they really liked how I was honest about the season, and it just happened to be like, I mean, you know, you did incredible. I just, I just happened to have like the best season of my life, and so people were interested in it. And so when I got good feedback from that, I thought, well, maybe I'll, I'll write something else. I'll write about my, uh, experience as a high school runner because I, I mean, high school in New Zealand is from 13 to 18, and I felt like I, I started out as someone who really didn't want to run. I hadn't— I, I was good at it, but I just wasn't really interested in it. It wasn't a sport that I found fun. And then by the time I finished high school, I was like one of the best distance runners or middle distance runners that New Zealand's ever had through the high school. I broke the New Zealand, high school record in the 3,000 meters and things like that. And but I also went through a lot of adversity along the way. And so I ended up writing a book called Hurt Me If You Can: The Tales of a High School Runner. Um, so I put that out in the world, and then that got some positive feedback as well. And so when we came to this one, when Rom reached out to me, he, he knew that I had done the 2017 diary, uh, through Eric Hines, who was the coach, um, when I first arrived. He knew I'd done the diary. He knew I had put the time and effort into writing this high school book, and it was a 200-page book. I mean, I spent 16 months writing it. And so he knew that I can have that time and I know what it takes to write a book together. And so then we ended up getting put in contact with a publisher. They also came across the piece of writing, and everyone was kind of happy with, uh, there was definitely areas where I could improve. And especially looking back on the high school book now after all the editing and everything that went into this, I'm like, oh my gosh, what I didn't know back then, what I— that I know now. Uh, and so that was kind of how that happened. I just happened to have these couple of pieces of writing out in the world, uh, the high school book just being something where I just didn't— I didn't think it was going to turn into anything. And then, crazy enough, I mean, it had helped support my case that I could be someone who could help her on with this.

Right, yeah, exactly. Nothing's wasted.

Yep. Um, yeah.

So, uh, I mean, how little— I was going to say, how much did you know? But probably a fairer question is how little did you know about the history of, uh, you know, the NAU track and cross-country program, uh, and also, you know, you know, Flagstaff as, you know, uh, you know, a running mecca, um, at the time this process started.

I mean, I knew nothing at all.

Yeah.

Uh, especially when— because we were, we're basically starting this in 1964 when the, the coach who started the program first comes to town. And I mean, I, I didn't know beyond 2016 or further back from 2016 when I first arrived in town. I just, I had no idea. And that was actually one of my worries about when Ron had contacted me about the book and he had detailed about some of these things which he wants in it and like how we would kind of want it structured.. And I just remember looking at it and thinking like, I don't think I'm that guy. Like, when I wrote my high school book and with the diary I put out, like, I enjoy creative writing. That's more what I'm into. Um, and putting together a book where you have to put a lot of history in there and I have to do a ton of research— facts. Yeah, exactly. That's key facts. Yeah. And so that was, that was the part where I was worried about. And I also didn't want to let Ron down because I knew how much this meant to him. I met Ron a couple of times in the past, and he's a guy who just, when he's talking about NAU, he gets so passionate about it. And I know that, and I can feel that when I've seen him. And so that was my biggest concern, was like, oh, I don't want to go along with this process with him and then let him down and not be the guy that he hoped that I was going to be putting this together. And so, I mean, I was, I was a little bit worried about that. I, I carried a few of those like fears, I guess, going into this process. But at the same time, I knew if I didn't do this with him, I knew I was going to regret it. And so I just hoped that it would come together and that us working with Solstice Publishing in town, that they would really help us as well. And they did. They did an amazing job. And so yeah, it just, it just ended up being the best pairing.

I think me and Ron worked great together, right on. Um, so yeah, let's delve into, you know, kind of the substance of the story that is told here. Um, like like, uh, you know, uh, sort of like seems like the godfather figure is, um, Red— Coach Red Haberlack.

Um, so tell us about him. Yeah, so, so Red, uh, he, he got a call up from an AD that he knew who was— he was working with at a different school, and, and that AD eventually moved to NAU and called him up one day and said, hey, we're looking at starting this this track and field program at that point. They weren't going to start a cross-country program, and we're wondering if you want to come out and start. And I think there were some, some reluctancies because his thinking was that Flagstaff was going to be like the rest of Arizona. It's going to be desert, it's going to be hot, it's not going to be like where he, he is from in North Carolina.

Are you listening? Yeah, Flagstaff is not like the rest of Arizona.

Come to Dream Run Camp. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's, it's, uh, it's a special bubble within Arizona for sure. And, and especially when you're talking in the— in 1964, you can't just do a Google search. You can't just look up, oh, what does right stuff actually look like? You have to go by what you're being told, and yeah, and hopefully he's telling the truth. And thankfully, Reid ended up moving out here, started the program. He was a football coach originally for a semester and then started the track and field program. But I mean, I, I can't even imagine how many hours he put into getting this thing off the ground, where he was on the road trying to recruit people to come to this no-name program at this no-name school, um, and trying to get people excited about that, that would have been really hard. Um, yes, but he ended up doing a great job, and he, uh, he was just someone who I think people just really enjoyed working with him. Everyone who we interviewed who had something to do with Reid just always had nice things to say about him. And so although Reid unfortunately had passed away in 2017, so we couldn't interview him, uh, we did get a ton of information from his wife Shirley. So she's, um, she's still based here in Flagstaff, and so she sent us all these old news clippings and gave us all this information about Reed. And so we could put his story together even without him being right here. And so that was one of the special things for me, and I know it was obviously special for Ron because he was coached by Reed and he knew him a lot more intimately than I could or ever would. And it was just nice to be able to tell his story because I mean, I had no idea who it was. I never heard his name before. Yeah. And so now my hope is that people who are coming to NAUS, like these athletes who are thinking about coming onto this program, they can know Reed Haverlack. He was the one who started this team, and they can have that appreciation for the, the founder of what we now get to enjoy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was actually going to save this question for later, but I think you, you teed it up. Um, It's like, you know, you know, I've never, I've never been involved. I mean, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't an athlete at the university level. I haven't coached at that level, but I'm fascinated by, you know, the growth and development and success of programs, you know, you know, university athletic programs. And it just seems like so often that it comes down to one person or like one or two people, like maybe an athletic director with a vision and a tolerance for risk who just like, you know what, I want this to happen and I'm willing to, you know, bet my career on it. And then like choosing, you know, choosing a guy or a gal who just, you know, is the right person to give that vision the best possible chance of success.

Seating.

So can you talk about what you learned about— because I think, you know, people might look at this, you know, look at the, you know, the COVID and think, and the title and subtitle and think, well, that's like really super specific. You know, it's like, it's one place, it's one program. But, you know, for me, the appeal, the special appeal of the book— I mean, I'm a Flagstaff guy, but the, you know, the broader appeal is like the the universe, the universality that is packed in here, just like what it takes actually to create a dynasty or a legacy of success. So what did you learn about, I mean, you learned about it like as an athlete at NAU, but I'm sure in researching and writing this book, you learned a lot more about what's the formula. What does it take to, you know, just, you know, it takes create greatness out of almost nothing. Yeah, you know, which is what happened here.

Yeah, I think one of the biggest things is you have to try and fail a lot. I think that's what I had really picked up, because when I came onto the NAU team in 2016, we won every single cross-country race, and that was the first time the team has done that. And we won Nationals 3 years in a row. And so I used to joke with people about like, all I knew was winning when I walked onto the NAU team, because that's literally all we did was just win every single race. And then when we're putting this book together, there's a couple of instances where the team thought they were going to win with a K to go. The guys are leading, and then maybe a runner or two start falling off, and the, the depth just isn't quite there. Uh, obviously no fault to anyone, it's just sometimes really hard to accumulate 5, 6 really good runners who can hang on through a complete 10K. Um, and these are coaches who think they're about to win, and then they don't. They second or something. And so I now look back and I'm like, I shouldn't be going around telling everyone all I know is winning, because some of these guys were almost there and they were putting everything into it and they didn't quite get to the top. But those guys also helped with us getting to the point where we win. Um, it was learning about that you're actually standing on the back or standing on the shoulders of all these guys and women who came before you and all these coaches who came before you. I think that was one of the biggest learning curves, was just hearing some of these stories about people who are on the NAU team before I was there and how they had some of the same traditions and how they were really cared about the culture of the team. And then when I walk on the team and I think like, oh, this— the culture is great and there's still some things we can improve and we keep working on that, but the culture is great when I walked on because of people 10, 20, 30 years before I did. And it kept building and building. And so that was one of the things I didn't realize was just how much people were putting into this team in the '70s and how that benefits a team in 2020. Um, because it took 50 years from the— from when the cross-country team first started until when they won their first national title. Um, and you think like, oh, let's start this program and, and the running NECA, which at the time no one knew it was that, right? But you're starting this program and you think, oh yeah, maybe, maybe 10 years, 20 years, I don't know. But 50 years, and then suddenly you're seeing this amazing success, but yeah, yeah, just not quite realizing like how much actually went into it to provide the foundations that these guys and women are now benefiting from, right?

Yeah. Um, so yeah, in terms of the, uh, the, the Flagstaff factor, because it's like there's, there's NAU, you know, a university with a track and field and cross-country program, um, situated in the city of Flagstaff. And it's interesting, you know, just, uh, sometimes it just seems like, I don't know, just like, you know, when you tell a story like this one, it just seems like almost like a matter of destiny, like things lining up and almost like, ooh, ways. And so you've got, you know, so it's like 1962 when the program was formed or 1965 was when the program officially started.

Yeah. So 5.

So mid-1960s, and then it just so happens that the 1968 Olympics are going to be held in Mexico City at high altitude. And so, you know, we've learned a lot about altitude training and, you know, all that stuff, you know, since then. But people knew enough then to know that, well, if we're going to be racing at, you know, 9,000 feet— what is Mexico City?

It's like, I think it's even higher than— yeah, just over 7,000.

Okay, still just a little Yeah, higher than Flagstaff. So like suddenly you've got like Jim Ryan and George Young and like, you know, you know, the top, you know, young, uh, elite American runners of the time coming here. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because like that, that seems like, like that's sort of what put Flagstaff on the map, uh, you know, running-wise.

Yeah, definitely.

That was—

I mean, that was one of the catalysts that that led to a lot of change and with people wanting to come to Flag just because up to that point there wasn't really a, a lot of need to do, uh, to look into the science around training at altitude. Because if, if no one's racing at altitude, what does it really matter? So there'll be a few people who are probably studying it, I'm sure. But when the 19— when the Olympics was, uh, awarded to Mexico City for 1968, then everyone realized we have to study this thing. Like, this is really important. If we don't study it and we don't know how long people need to acclimatize to being at altitude, then our, our runners and our team and our whole Olympic campaigns are basically worthless, right? Yeah. And so that was the big thing. And then you have a guy like Dr. Jack Daniels who comes to Flagstaff, and he's doing testing with Jim Ryan who's up here, um, and George Young, Billy Mills, Comrade Nightingale. All these guys come to Flagstaff to to train during this time, and they think that this is, this is the ideal elevation to be at. It also really benefited us when you look at Mexico City. Flagstaff is close to Mexico City, so it was really easy to get a flight from our area over there. And so that benefited Flagstaff even more. Um, and it was even one of the reasons why Flagstaff held an athletic competition a couple of weeks before the Mexico City Games where we 6,000 people come out and watch, and you had over 100 Olympians competing on Lumberjack Stadium here, uh, the track, the Mini Olympics. Yeah, yeah. And I had no idea about any of this. Uh, that's the biggest track meet NAU has probably ever held, right? And it was in 1968. Yeah, yeah. And so people just, just didn't know at that point. But then after the Olympics, people realized like, oh wow, you can, you can train at altitude, you can survive, you can go down to sea level and you can race really well. And Flagstaff just kind of ended up being a center of some of those, some of those learning curves, and then it just kind of took off from there.

Uh, so, you know, fast forwarding, I guess, quite a bit, um, you know, uh, so it's a weird thing to be, you know, recruited by one coach and then to end up being coached by another coach. So there was a transition, uh, that occurred for you, like I think most people who are sort of late to the story, you know, regarding the success of, you know, the NAU program, particularly on the men's side, but also on the women's side, they think of like Mike Smith. Mike Smith is the guy. And so we've talked about some of the deep history, Ron Mann, Red, Coach Red. But fast forwarding a bit, we've got this new character who seems like, um, had a galvanizing, galvanizing influence on the program, Mike Smith.

Yeah. So, so you're thinking about like, how did that transition happen between—

yeah, yeah, yeah. And just like, you know, just like, you know, just the importance of the individual, you know, just like Um, you know, it's a, it's a job. Someone has to fill that job, and it can be very difference-making for the better or for the worse or in between by like the specific individual who fills that role.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

And that's, I think, what the NAU team has really benefited from, where we had Ron Mann come in and he just has this unwavering love for NAU and Flagstaff. And so here, yeah, he was here in 1980 through to 2004, and then you have J.W. W. Hardy, who took over the program, he gets John Hayes in, and John Hayes is here for a couple of years. He ends up recruiting— I mean, he recruits Lopez Lamont, who's probably one of the most recognizable figures to ever come out of NAU. Uh, he also helps the forward writer for your book, the forward writer for our book. Thank you, Lopez. Yeah. And so, uh, and he also helps recruit a guy like David McNeil, who goes in Australia and who ends up doing some, some amazing things. And then, and then Hines is kind of right place at right time when when Hayes steps away and he ends up taking over, and then he ends up being head of the program, and he just keeps that trajectory going. And he keeps— every coach is kind of built off what the one before did. And then Hines ends up sort of unexpectedly announcing that he's going to leave the program because his wife gets a job in Houston, and he very admirably, uh, follows her to Houston as well. Um, and so then, yeah, we end up— we're in a position where we're going to hire a new coach, and NAU's like getting to this point where we're like doing really well. And, um, and so they have to make this decision, who are we going to bring in? And it just ends up being a guy, Mike Smith, uh, who also had spent a bunch of time in Flagstaff. He was here from— I can't remember the exact dates— he was here around 2006, '07, '08, maybe up until 2011 before he got his Georgetown job. Um, it was actually this guy who loved and really appreciated Flagstaff. He, he helped, um, working at the high altitude training center that we had here in Flagstaff. He helped with setting up Team Run Flagstaff that still exists. And he was just Bagel Run. He was just a guy who, um, once again had this like passion for Flagstaff and loved being here. And us as athletes, we didn't know that. He was just a guy who was going to be coming in from Georgetown. But he just— the athletic department, I think, time and time again just keep making the right choices.

They were—

and but one of the biggest things which I think they learned through hiring J.W. Hardy, who was more of like a sprints type specialist as the director, that for a program like this, the director for the most part kind of needs to be a distance orientated person. Yes, that way you're not going to lose them. If they're— as, as Hardy made, made the point in the book, that if the assistant coach is the head of distance then that person is going to get a, get a job elsewhere and they're gonna— we're gonna keep cycling through them. Yeah. And so, yeah, we have Hines as the director and then we had Mike as the director, and they just honestly couldn't have chosen a better person to carry on that legacy than Mike Smith. Um, he just loves the NAU program and he's— but he's also just a guy who— I mean, he's like, how I would explain, he's just a guy who you would like run through a brick wall for. He just— he's a very empathetic person and he spent a lot of time getting to know the athletes when he first came in, build a rapport with them. And so he's just a guy who you just, you just want to succeed for, right? Um, just because of who he is and his personality and everything. And so yeah, he just, he just ended up being the perfect fit.

Yeah. So, uh, not to compare myself to Mike Smith, please, or Ron Math— Ron Man— but yeah, well, but I'm just going to go ahead and— yeah, do it, do it. But, you know, uh, until December of last year, I was living in another state and very happy and well situated where I was. But, you know, in 2017, I had spent a summer here, um, living out a dream as a fake professional runner embedded with your team. Um, and I like to say the best 13 weeks of my life. Um, and fell in love. I mean, it was a great experience on every level, but, but also fell in love with Flagstaff. You know, I had had short visits here before, but 13 weeks straight, uh, in, in those circumstances, um, you know, I just, I, you know, the magic just infected me and, you know, but had to go back home and, but was scheming to find a way back here, you know, ever since. And, you know, I get it. Like Flagstaff is, you know, it's, it has grown, it has changed. And there are people who've been here for a long time who, you know, kvetch about like, you know, the California people moving in and ruining it or the Phoenix people moving and ruining it. But, you know, for me, like, you know, coming here and creating Dream Run Camp, uh, for, for me, it was like, I, I do feel an affinity. For the Mike Smiths and the Ron Manns and the Matt Baxters, like people who, you know, just fell in love with this place and understand the magic and want to both preserve and amplify it. It's just like, I mean, you've, you've spoken very well about this tradition that like is handed down, like, you know, let's keep this thing going. Like I had my turn, let's pass it on, you know, as me, for me as like kind of an interloper. I feel like that's like, you know, coming at it from a different angle. That's really what I'm trying, I'm trying to do and we are trying to do here is like, we don't want to ruin it. We want to make it, you know, we want to keep this thing going. Yeah. Um, so from your perspective, could you, cause like, you know, I get it, you get it. I think everyone in this room gets it. Um, but what is it that makes Flagstaff special? In and of itself, but particularly for people who love running.

Yeah, I think another thing we kind of point out in here is that you have world-class athletes coming here before every major event, before Olympics, World Champs. The city is just covered in people who are going on to try and medal and do these amazing things at these huge events. And for those people, when you come to Flag, you can kind of be seen and hidden at the same time. You're not going to get swarmed by people. Not everyone's going to be asking you for autographs and everything. You can come here and the running community will love seeing you, and people might come up and say hi and all that, but you can still remain somewhat hidden out on the trails and everything. You can be doing a workout on the track and people aren't going to be coming up and bothering you. And I remember when I first came to NAU in 2016 and I saw a bunch of the NAU teammates sitting in the stands watching someone work out, and I went down and sat down with them and I was like, oh, who are you guys watching work out? I'm like, oh, Mo Farah's doing a workout. Nonchalantly, like couldn't care less, it's just Mo Farah, goes on to be a full-time Olympic gold medalist and whatever. And so it's just, you can come here and you can just kind of get your work done and then leave. But it's also a, for more of your general runner, it's just a supportive environment. You can, you have a bunch of pros here and you could, you could meet up with them for a long run. No one's going to kind of kick you out, or you, you can use the different facilities around, around town. And it's just it's just something where it feels like, uh, I don't know, it feels like no one's kind of too good for each other, which could easily happen here because some people are really good. Um, but you— it's just like one of those environments where it's just, it's just got to a point where it just, it feels friendly and it feels like, oh, you're a new runner in town, like, come run with us, come do a long run or an easy run, um, no matter what kind of caliber you are. And so I think that that kind of environment that's being created in Flagstaff is unique, and that's what I really want us to hold on to. I don't want us to get to a point where you have 3 or 4 pro groups in town and no one trains with each other and no one wants to see each other because we're competitors. And then when you have something like a bagel run, you don't have anyone turn up because people don't want to see what you're doing for training or whatever. I don't know, but there's just this community stuff that happens here which I think probably just doesn't happen in other places. Um, and the Bagel Run is one of those things where you'll have— I don't know, I mean, you might have like 100, 150 people, like when you have all these college athletes and high school athletes who come to town and everyone's running through campus. And we've had police shouting at us, so everyone get off the road, because you have so many people running through. It's just like— I don't know, it's just— it's— that's what makes us special, like that, that community vibe that's been kept. Yep.

Yeah, um, 100%. Um, yeah, so, um, you know, so this is, I guess, your second book then, right? Because, uh, Hurt Me If You Can would be technically—

yeah, Hurt Me If You Can was like a self-published thing. It's actually— I pulled it now because I'm editing it, so you can't, you can't find it online. You'll— at some point I'll put it back up when I'm happy with it again. But, um, yes, technically that was kind of my first proper piece of work that I put out.

Yeah. So, you know, as someone who's written too many books, yeah, you know, like, um, I think, you know, part, part of the appeal, because it's very hard work as you've seen, but part of the appeal is that the pro— if you really invest yourself in the process of, you know, trying to create something lasting and deserving of being read, the process changes you. It's like you're not exactly the same person at the end of it that you were at the beginning of it. Did you experience any kind of transformation in the process? 2 and a half years, is that what you said? Yeah, yeah. Beginning to end. So that's a long time in the life of a man as young as you are.

So Are you the same Matt Baxter? Yeah, I think I just personally was going through an interesting time when I was writing this because, I mean, I'm a professional runner. I run for Hoka Northern Arizona Elite, and so my, my days are also spent running around here, the place that I'm, I'm trying to talk and write about. And so I was also going through a time where I was hurt through a lot of that. And so I'm sitting here writing this book about how amazing Flagstaff is and how much I love it, and I'm sitting there, my Achilles is all busted up and my hip hurts. I don't actually run, by the way. Yeah. And so it's funny when you're like, you're going through those different emotions, but the emotions don't match what you're trying to write. And especially when you're still in that city. And I was spending a lot of time like revisiting some of these memories in my college days. I'm like, oh man, this was amazing. And then I'm sitting here and I'm like, oh man. But it was just some unfortunate stuff I went through. I'm running great now. We're good. But yeah, I think it just gave me a much greater appreciation for what I'm able to do and the fact that I get to spend time here. And so I think that's what kind of changed was just that, I don't know, like I can be down in the dumps about being hurt and it's a bummer, but at the same time, like I get to live this dream of being in Flagstaff, being in this place, which I mean, people, I mean, people would love to live here. Not everyone can move here and I appreciate that. Um, but I need to appreciate the fact that I get to live here and that I get to enjoy this time being in Flagstaff. Staff. And I mean, it changed a lot of things about me in terms of my understanding of the process of putting a book together. Um, it changed a lot about my writing, about my editing skills, and, um, how to frame things. That, that definitely changed a lot. Um, and also, you know, even something as simple as like how to interview people and what are the right questions to do, because we did a ton of that. And so Yeah, and even just have an appreciation for people's stories that aren't necessarily super relevant to your own, like people who were on the NAU team and some of these things which might not seem really important to me, but they were really important to them at that time. And some of those traditions which kind of ended up dying off at NAU and me thinking like, oh man, I wish we kept those going because those guys in the 1980s, that was really important to them or something like that.

And so just, yeah, having an appreciation for other people's experiences and that as well. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, uh, that's actually— you're teeing me up beautifully with your answers to my questions. So like, um, it always works out that way. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, what is your hope for— so, you know, having been there, um, what is your hope for the impact? Like, who do you want to reach with this book?

And, and what impact do you hope it has on the people you reach with it? Yeah, I think I— one of the big things for me personally is that I, I want this to be something where international athletes who are looking at coming to Flagstaff can read this and know what they're walking into, having under— I mean, this is the perfect way to get an understanding of how the NCAA system works, why people are obsessed with team culture over here and actually how important that is for success and just what it's like to live in Flagstaff, what it's like to be at altitude, why you should care and be invested in a program or why you should care about your university, right? Which is a difference to like when I was back in New Zealand, you go to university, get your degree and you're out and you're certainly not going to walk around with the t-shirt that says university name on it. Like, you know, you don't carry that kind of pride, right? But I would love for people to read this and have an understanding of like, oh, that's why this person is walking around with an NAU t-shirt on, or that's why they still talk about their college days or their teammates and things like that. Yeah, so that's, that's one of the things. Like, for international athletes, I think this will be a perfect thing to get an understanding of the system over here. Um, and then I think also just, uh, I mean, recruits as well, American recruits that I mean, you have changes within the NCAA system right now, and you have NIL deals, and who knows what kind of appeals are coming up at different universities when it comes to money. Um, and I hope that this book can provide people of something that, um, shows you there's, there's, there's more to an NIL deal when you go to college, basically. Yeah. Hey, if you go to flags, like, you might get an NIL deal to a cool university somewhere and that's great, but you're not gonna get that, that amazing experience that you could get in Flagstaff. That money literally can't buy. You can't buy 7,000 feet somewhere, um, unless you're in an altitude tent at night, but it's still not quite the same thing. Um, and so yeah, I want people to see like, yeah, like that money can't buy what you're getting up here. And that's why we want to keep NAU going, and that's why we want to see that university keep thriving. And we want the history to keep going. And as Mike kind of says in a quote at the end of the book, that hopefully 100 years from now, NAU is still a thing and it's still something that's thriving. And the team is still going back to those basics of driving to Belmont for a long run or A1, and we're still doing those cool things that the team has always done from the beginning. That's kind of, yeah, that's That's what I'm hoping people get out of this. Very well said. Sorry, do you have a question you want to ask? Yeah, yeah, I just arrived to Flagstaff yesterday, and you told that maybe the book can show us, like, I'm new here, I'm going to be here for 15 days, maybe any advice for like really get into it and, and, and, and learn the most of it and like enjoy the city? I would appreciate it. Yeah, definitely. I think one of the big things with this book that we have, and I'll show you this actually, that would be super helpful, is we have a map of Flagstaff Flagstaff. And so what we put in here is kind of the key spots to hit. Um, so in terms of Snowball Road, that's where the team does lots of their long runs. You have Aspen Corner halfway up here, which I would argue is probably the most beautiful run in Flagstaff to check out. Um, you can also go to the top of Snowball Road and you can catch a chairlift to the top of Humphreys Peak. You can see the entirety of Flagstaff, you can see the Grand Canyon from up there. Um, so that's absolutely amazing. And then we also talk about A1, we talk about some of the key roads and we talk about some of the key sites on campus. So even just looking at a map in the book can really give you a key idea. Yeah, for Flagstaff, which is awesome. But yeah, I think to really experience the city is to check out the different running spots, different— as many different running spots as you can. And then also just talking with locals, like a guy like Matt here, who can tell you the best coffee shops, the best local places to eat at. Because that's— I feel like that's also a part of that experience as well, like getting to taste some of the— although it's not necessarily local food because it's a burger joint or it's a pizza place, but it's unique to Flagstaff, right? Those certain places. So checking out the food. Yeah, checking out the NAU campus, which is the best place you can recommend for me for pizza. Yeah, I really love pizza. I mean, I think one of the big ones in town is Pizza Pizza Clitter. That's one of the ones that people, people really go to. Um, yeah, and then you have a bunch of other different pizza joints and stuff as well, but Pizza Clitter is definitely, um, is, is one of the key ones.

We're there almost, almost every week.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we'll hit it, trust me.

Yeah, very soon.

And then, uh, thank you for the question. Um, and then we also have one from online, a former Dream Runner, Kelly. Submitted a question, um, that I think you— it was teased to you before, but you can re-ask the question.

It's a good one. Um, what role did or does a sports psychologist play in the college runner experience? Yeah, I think we were definitely fortunate to be working with Shannon Thompson at NAU. She was our sports psychologist at the time, and I think a lot of, a lot of colleges don't— I imagine wouldn't have that luxury. Um, which it shouldn't be a luxury, especially if colleges have a ton of money to invest in things like this. I think that's, that's kind of a minimum requirement, have a sports psychologist to go to, especially as a student athlete. But one of the things we did, we did a lot of, um, I guess group focus sessions with Shannon where she would take us through different mental strategies to use at races, and, and they would all kind of build on each other. So we would do it every week, and so by the end of the season you kind of this bank of knowledge of things to call upon if things— if you're really nervous before a race or things get really hard in a race, or maybe you're just, I don't know, you're just struggling with your running in general, or imposter syndrome, you don't know why you're here, things like, things like that. Um, I think, yeah, having that consistent— that can— working consistently at those kind of things, um, is really key. And one of the big things which I found I benefited benefited from was visualization, which we would sometimes go through just imagining some of those, those key points of a race, thinking about all the kind of things as well that could possibly go wrong, but how you would respond to that adversity. Um, so that basically when you go into a race, nothing, nothing is kind of a surprise because you've already gone through everything in your mind about anything that could go right or could go wrong. Um, I think, yeah, I mean, I think it's super valuable because we put so much time and effort into our training And it's so easy to derail all of that because you just— your mind wanders. Or on race day, you're having a lot of negative thoughts and you don't know why, even though it's just nerves. Like, you— as long as you— if you can get this understanding of like, you being nervous on race day is actually a good thing. That's— that's— you're supposed to feel that way. Every single person there feels nervous. If someone doesn't feel nervous, and there's something wrong, that person should be concerned. Um, but oftentimes we get to race day and we're nervous and we're like, why do I feel this way? What do I— I don't, I don't understand this. And, and so having that, that bank of knowledge on, on how to respond to that, and if your mind starts drifting and starts thinking about all the things that could go wrong in the race and you're having a hard time pulling that back, having worked with a sports psychologist and them giving you strategies to refocus and pull that back and focus on the task at hand, I mean, that stuff is invaluable. That's the, that's the difference between winning and losing, especially when you're at this level, uh, particularly with where NAU is at at the moment. I mean, they, they won NCAAs last year, um, but it was in a tiebreaker. It's like the closest you can possibly get, right? Um, and that difference comes from people telling themselves the right things in the race and working with someone like Shannon and things like that. So I, I think, yeah, sports psychology is, is absolutely invaluable.

Right on. Uh, Yeah. So thank you, Kelly, for the question. Thank you for that terrific answer to the question. Uh, we'll wrap up now. We've got turkey burgers on the menu. Um, I think you've earned your turkey burgers this evening. Um, yeah, we didn't get a chance— I mean, appropriately, this was the agenda I wanted. I wanted to focus on this terrific book. It's, uh, like you can pre-order, you can basically order.

So you can order it now through solsticepublishing.com. Um, so you can find that, you can order the copy, and I mean, we'll ship them out within a couple of days, I would imagine. Or else you can pre-order it through Amazon and you would get your order about November 7th, which is the official release date.

All right, um, so yeah, all that said, we'll have you back, um, we're not going anywhere. Yeah, um, but we, we didn't get to talk too much about, you know, your running, but, uh, by way of concluding and wrapping up, could you just say where you are with your running and what's next. You know, like, I'm a fan, Lauren's a fan, these two are about to be— they're on their way. Yeah, we're pulling for you to have some, like, fantastic successes down the road.

What's next? Yeah, definitely. So I think I'm in a funny spot at the moment where I'm trying to figure a bit of that out. I recently have transitioned into the marathon. I ran New York Marathon in November, got 12th year, um, ran Gold Coast Marathon in July and blew up there. So I'm like, I'm still trying to figure out the whole marathon thing. So I think my, my biggest goal right now, and what I'll look at, uh, when I look at targeting a marathon this fall, is I just want to go out there and I just want to put a good one on the board. Um, whether, whether that's the fastest time I've done or not, I just want to go out there and I want to come off a marathon and be happy and feel like I can't wait to do another one. Um, because I think that's just the hard thing with the distance. Like, even with New York, I was, I was, I was pleased with the placing. Um, but I cramped a lot and it was really hard of that last 10K and things. And I finished and I'm like, ah, why does that happen? Because I mean, until you run a marathon, like, sometimes you just don't know what that kind of thing feels like. Yeah. And so, and then even with Gold Coast, I mean, my plan was to try and run the Olympic standard, and I came through halfway in 63:45, and, uh, which is a bit below the Olympic standard. We went out a little bit hot, but, uh, and then I had a walk-jog last 12K, and so that was a whole new experience as well. And so yeah, I'm basically— my goal right now is to just get a good one on the board, and then, uh, as I look to 2024, that's where I'll be looking at trying to, to try and make that step up in the marathon and try and run everything possible.

Right on.

Yeah, cool.

Well, uh, you're, you're not short on talent. You've got a good head on your shoulders. You're part of a great team. You're in a terrific environment, and you have a, a support, uh, system. Like, you have a whole bunch of people really rooting for you. Um, you're, you're easy to be a fan of. Matt Baxter, thank you so much for dropping by Dream Run House for Live from Dream Run Camp.

I appreciate it, and I love the setup you have here. I wish we could like panorama this entire thing so people can see the house. All the amazing stuff is behind the camera as well. Like, the view right here is incredible. Yeah, this place, this place is amazing. I love what you've set up here. And obviously, like, you can see me like working on this book and trying to bring a lot of attention to Flagstaff and what we're doing with this team. And you're doing the same thing. You're trying to bring attention to this amazing place and trying to get get new people, um, through here and try and get the word out because it's crazy that this, this town hasn't blown up with runners. It's like this, this, uh, this gym that people are starting to know about but still not to the degree that we think everyone should. Um, so yeah, I mean, I love what you— the work that you're doing here as well.

All right, cool, mate.

All right, turkey burgers. Yeah, man, let's do it.