Live With: Ben Rosario

Welcome to episode number whatever of Live from DreamRun Camp. I'm your host, Matt Fitzgerald. We are presented as always by 80/20 Endurance and, uh, situated out of the DreamRun Camp, uh, in Flagstaff, Arizona. We got a pretty full house tonight. Uh, Chris is outside dealing with an irrigation situation, but he'll be joining us momentarily. Uh, we've got Sang, current Dream Runner doing the camera work here. Um, just got thrown into it, poor guy. Um, got some visitors from the UK and Ireland. Um, Betsy and Vivian over there. Yeah, very festive. Uh, we've got, uh, Nataki cooked up some Jamaican jerk tacos that will be available to all, um, yeah, afterwards. So we just— you got to suffer through 45 minutes.

I'm good.

Yeah. Uh, sitting next to me, by the way, is Ben Rosario, the founder and executive director of the Hoka Northern Arizona Elite professional running team.

Welcome, Ben. Oh, thanks for having me. Let's do it.

Did I get your title right?

Yeah, that's good. That was it.

Right on. So, uh, this is sort of like an about time thing. Uh, like, honestly, like, I mean, we've had— I don't know, we've done 8 or 9 10 of these. But if we'd only done one, you would have had to be my guest.

Oh, well, thank you, Matt. That's very nice of you.

Yeah. So a thing I like to do when I have someone as a guest who I have a longstanding relationship with is ask, how do we know each other?

How do we know each other? Well, I think we certainly knew of one another for a long time. But as I remember it, we had a cup of coffee at Starbucks in Monterey, California. No, no, no, Sacramento, California. Excuse me, Sacramento, California. I'm picturing Monterey because I go to both of these events all the time.

You had coffee there?

Yes, yes, we did. Thank you. Thank you. No, but we had coffee in Starbucks in Sacramento at CIM 2016, and you pitched me the idea of coming to Flagstaff and running with our group as you prepared for the Chicago Marathon in the fall of '17. What did I say?

You said yes.

Yes, I said yes. So that was, that was the start of our relationship.

Yeah. Why did you say yes?

Well, we've always, from the beginning, had a policy where we're very open, uh, meaning NAZ Elite, to new ideas, to interns, to, um media requests, podcasts, articles, etc., etc. And so this was a pretty easy yes. I certainly knew of you, as I had said, and I knew you did good work, and I loved your idea. Your idea was that not only would you come and train— you weren't just asking to come train with us, that would be very selfish. You were also asking to write a book about the experience, which of course would benefit you, but it would be a win-win because it would be of value to us for, for people to get an insight into our, into our group. And that's, that's what ended up happening. You came, you ran, you wrote the book, and the book I think was very successful, called Running the Dream. And I'm really fast-forwarding here, but in a lot of ways, sitting here and the camp, the Dream Run Camp, was sort of a result of, of that experience.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was kind of a life pivot for me. Honestly, I thought it was 13 weeks, but it became the rest of my life.

Oh my gosh, tears flowing, emotions.

Um, yeah, so, all right, so you did some fast forwarding there, but we can go back. I'm just, you know, yeah, yeah, we'll do some, some deep rewinding. Um, uh, I think probably everyone watching this maybe knows more than nothing about you. Um, but, uh, could you give me, us, a thumbnail bio of, uh, you know, you know, pre-NAZ elite?

Sure, sure. Yes, of course. Born in St. Louis, Missouri, uh, born and raised there, went to high school there, uh, had, had a wonderful high school running experience as many, many runners do, uh, loved my high school cross-country and track experience, had a wonderful cross-country coach who's a friend and mentor to this day, Jim Linares. Was fortunate enough to get a scholarship to college, just a Division II college, but still really, really fortunate, Truman State University. So ran there, was a DII All-American, and our team got 4th at the Division II cross-country championships my senior year. Back then there weren't a lot of groups, uh, to join post-collegiately, but one of those groups was the Hansons team, the Hansons Brooks team in Michigan at that And at that point, it was just the Hansons' team. There was no Brooks yet. But I, I begged and pleaded to get on that team. And Kevin and Keith Hanson gave me a shot. And so I went up there in 2003. That fall was when they signed the deal with Brooks. So it was a really fun time to be a part of that team. Brian Sell was just coming into his own and just becoming a star. And the team was really growing and expanding and getting better and producing better results. I was just hanging on for dear life, but I had a wonderful 2 years there. I did qualify for the Olympic trials marathon. I was the youngest qualifier for the '04 trials in Birmingham, Alabama. And then after 2 years there, so in the summer of '05, I left the team only because it's very hard to make it as a pro runner when you're not that good. And I wasn't that good. And so, So I remember just typing on monster.com running jobs and this job came up in St. Louis, which was my hometown, to work for the St. Louis Marathon and be their special events coordinator. So I applied for that job, got that job, moved back to St. Louis with $7 in my bank account. I remember that. Hence, not a lot of money to be made in running. But I got that job, did that job for 1 year, really enjoyed it. But halfway through that, my buddy Matt Helbig talked me into going in on a running store with him. And I had finished 2nd at the US Championships in 2005 in the marathon that fall. And I made $20,000, which was more than I had made in 2 years at running at Hanson. So, I took that money, Matt took his money from— he was doing adventure trips out west. And then, we scraped some money together from friends and family and we started a running store in 2006 in St. Louis called Big River Running Company. And we opened in August of '06. By the time we opened, we had less than $10,000 in the bank, but we never missed a payment. Paid all our friends and family back within 2 years. By year 3, we had 3, or by year 4, I guess, we had 3 locations in the St. Louis area and we're doing really well. By year 6, I was totally fried. It takes a lot of work, as it turns out, to own a running store. But yeah, I sold my half of the business to Matt in 2012, and my wife Jen and I and our daughter Addison, who was 1-year-old at the time, moved to Flagstaff in 2012 in March. And really for no reason, a lot of the narrative that people like to spin is that we came out here to start a running team, but that's not true. We came here to get away and just have a different life. We figured we'd figure it out on the back end. And, um, I worked for Greg McMillan for about a year doing marketing for McMillan Running Company. Greg was a friend of mine. And then, yeah, started coaching some people, uh, on the side. And I've always coached people, uh, going back even to Hanson's. I coached a middle school team, so, so that's always been a part of my life. And the folks I, I was working with that the couple of people I was working with had a good bit of success. Um, and in Flagstaff, people know each other. And, and so I think I got to know a lot of people during that time. And by the end of 2013, Greg's group, the Adidas McMillan Elite group, was dissolving. And so there was a bit of a hole. And, um, that's when Jenna and I decided, okay, I think we'll start our own running team, because I had that experience at Hanson's Plus I had the business experience of the store and Jen had helped immensely with the store. So we together had that business experience. And yeah, that's when we started the team, January of 2014. Right on. There you go.

Sweet. Wow, that was well done.

Thank you. I've done it a few times.

Yeah, you know that story pretty well. By the way, Chris is back. How did it go? Good. Yeah. Okay.

All right.

I'm glad you didn't say bad because it'd be like, show's over. Sorry. Shortest live from Green Run Camp ever. Um, and I should say, like, every— the floor is open for asking questions. So if you have a question for Ben, just don't be shy, fire away. Um, you know, otherwise I'll just dominate because I have plenty. Um, I don't— so moving on, uh, I wonder, like, when you were, um, uh, you know, a kid, um, you know, it's funny, like, when I look at what I'm doing now And then I look back to when I was a kid, I'm like, yep, that checks. Like, I was pretty much like on track, not in every detail, but like, this is what— this is basically the life I wanted. Uh, you know, the stuff that you've done with your life, um, you know, was like, you know, was, you know, an 8-year-old, a 10-year-old, uh, Ben Rosario sort of like on that path already, or not so much?

Yes and no. I don't think that I thought that far ahead. But I certainly was a sports nut. And I certainly wanted to be involved in sports from a very, very young age. Now, I thought I'd be playing for the St. Louis Cardinals. That didn't work out. Now, you know, I loved, I loved baseball when I was very young. Then I, then I kind of switched over. I was a '90s kid. So I loved Michael Jordan and the Bulls and played a ton of basketball. And then you, you, you kind of, if you're a runner, I'm talking to the people watching perhaps, you know that this sport often just finds you. You play all the other sports, but then if you're best at running, you kind of like doing what you're best at. And so, so yeah, 7th, 8th grade, I kind of found that I was better at running and I liked being good and I liked winning and I was a very competitive kid. And so it was, there was no question in my mind that I would go out for the cross-country team. In the fall of my freshman year in high school, and I did that. And, yeah, I think from there on, I was certainly pretty sure that I would— that this would be my path. I didn't know exactly, you know, there's a lot of little forks in the road, of course, and there's a lot of options, I suppose, in the running world, but I knew that running would be my path. Right on.

I'll keep going. Um, yeah, so this is, uh, this is the kind of question that makes an interviewee potentially uncomfortable.

I'm excited.

I don't care. Um, well, it's just like it— when I, uh, like when I brought Sang to meet you just yesterday at headquarters, um, and when I prep people to meet you, this is what I say when you're not in the room. Like, I, I like, you know, Um, Ben just, he just seems like, like a regular guy. He's like very personable and like, you don't just get, you know, hit over the head with like ego or he just seems like just a dude, you know what I mean? And, but, but I think knowing you very well that like, I mean, you've been pretty successful at most of the things you applied yourself to. Like, I think it's, it's fair to say that like you got pretty far as a runner, you know, with, you know, maybe not like a total genetic lottery winner for for running talent. And then, you know, the, the Big River Running Company was, you know, very successful, and EZ Elite has been very successful. And so for me, you're an interesting case study in like what the it factor is, um, for success. Because like, like, you, people wouldn't just like, I don't know what this guy does, but I'll bet he's super successful. It's like, no, you're just talking sports with the dude. Um, but like, you're you, so what is your own perception like you have a good track record when you apply yourself to something, it tends to go well. I'm sure you've had your failures, we all do. But, you know, just sort of self-analyzing, what do you think your recipe for success is?

Well, if you go back to school, I got A's in the classes I liked, and I got C's and D's in the classes I didn't like. Sorry, Vivian. I just have always been someone who, if I am passionate about something, I will throw myself into it. I will just jump into the deep end and I'm all in. If I, if I don't like it so much, I really won't give it a second thought. But I think that's probably good for an entrepreneur because you can't be You have to be completely obsessed to succeed in the entrepreneurial world, which is essentially what I consider myself. When I had the stores, I mean, it was 24/7. It was 7 days a week. I said yes to everything. I worked the floor. I hated not being on the floor because I honestly, the worst part for me was when we were the most successful. Because when we were the most successful was at the end when we had 3 stores. By that time, I can't be in 3 places at once. I can't know every employee and I can't, you know, that I really liked being in control of the whole thing. And so, you know, I was the one that coached the youth team. I was the one that coached the adult beginner team. I coached all the sub-elite athletes in town. You know, I did, you know, I kind of directed all of our events. Like, that was all me. Now, Matt, my business partner, did all the numbers and ordered all the shoes and ordered all the apparel because I hated that and I wouldn't have been good at that. And so I think I've just, I think I've just found things that I liked and really gone all in on those things.

Zain, you had a question?

Yes.

So you mentioned that you're pretty competitive, right? So how has that— what is your philosophy on competition both for yourself and for the runners? How do you think about it? How do you help them? And have there been like big set— I mean, big or small setbacks with the way you thought about competition?

I mean, for myself, the way I think about competition, I mean, again, that's how I grew up. I mean, there's a winner and there's a loser. And I don't like to be the loser. I'm very competitive in everything that I do. And I'm very confident. If I sit down at a poker table, I think I'm going to be the best poker player. If I start a team, I think we're we're gonna have the best team. And, you know, I, again, I think that helps me as an entrepreneur. As far as coaching, it's hard because you don't have control over the race. You do your best, but to coach the athletes, but ultimately it's up to them to get the job done on race day. So, you know, again, I like to be in control, so that part's not always super fun. It's very nerve-wracking. But yeah, I mean, I tried to— when I was coaching the team, which I did for 8+ years, I tried to instill a healthy level of competitive atmosphere. You know, I tried to instill that collectively amongst the whole group, that healthy competitive vibe. But then individually, you know, certainly tried to put athletes in a place where they could— I mean, I think we're naturally competitive, all of us. Maybe not everybody in everything, but certainly we're competitive in our own way. And, you know, you just try to find that athlete's, you know, what makes them tick competitively. You know, for some people, it was very easy for me to understand what made them tick because they were kind of just like me. But then for others, it was more difficult because, you know, they were a little, a little less aggressive maybe. But I feel like I was lucky in the sense, at least with this team, that if you get to this point, you're probably pretty competitive. So it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't that difficult of a job to get people to be, to be competitive. The, the hardest thing in our sport is, is probably, and this applies to everybody regardless of whether you're a pro athlete or a 5-hour marathoner, is just not being so obsessed about time and being a little bit more competitive, whether it's trying to win the race at the pro level or whether it's trying to be competitive intrinsically and not get so caught up in the extrinsic things like time and, you know, PRs and those kind of things. I think it's, you know, to me, I always say it's much more satisfying at the end of a race to know that you gave everything you had. Now, whether you hit the time you wanted or not, I don't know. But like, for example, if you got a high school cross-country runner and this kid wants to break 17 minutes, right? And that's their goal, okay? They want to break 17 minutes. And they're running the race and they see the clock ahead, like 200 meters out, you know, and they jog it on in and they run 16:59, but 10 people passed them coming down the stretch. But then let's compare that with a different kid that wants to break 17 minutes. And 200 meters out, he sees the clock and sprints as fast as he can and passes 10 or 12 guys, but runs 17:01. What do you want? I'll take the 17:01. You know what I mean? And I think that's probably the biggest challenge in our sport in terms of competitiveness is we forget that— You know, being competitive is not about the end result necessarily. It's about how you ran the race.

Great question, Sang. Thank you. So, in your runners, how do you instill that sort of focus?

How do you shift them to that?

To try to stop focusing on the time and the pace?

Well, it's a consistent message. It's consistent messaging over time. You know, if you bring it up a day before the race, that's too late, you know. That, that sort of messaging has to be there from the beginning. And the way I like to coach and the type of workouts I like to give, I mean, yes, of course, a lot of them are time-oriented and very, very controlled. But then I like to do some fartlek work and some work where the watch and the splits don't matter. And it is all effort-based or hill work. I think things that where time doesn't even come into play. I think, how can you expect an athlete to compete in the way I'm suggesting if all they ever do is really split-oriented work? You know, you need to give them the chance to go by effort and listen to their body and have a chance in practice to kind of, you know, engage in that mind over matter sort of philosophy or that just that Basically, we have to understand that the mind, the brain, is kind of the enemy of good performance in a lot of ways because its job, you know, above all is it's trying to take care of the body. And so if you're going at this certain pace, you know, all it knows is, hey, if you keep going at this pace for too much longer, you could pass out. So it starts sending you these signals like, hey, you need to slow down. Down a little bit, you know. But you have to remember that that's just the brain trying to take care of the body. You can override that signal because you're conscious. That's your subconscious brain. Your conscious brain knows that's not true. Like, I'm not gonna pass out. I'm only going 5K, you know. And so, and so, you know, but you have to, you have to practice that a little bit, and then, and then you have to, you have to do it in the race, and then you have to analyze the race. Did I make the right decisions? Did I override those signals? And you have to be honest with yourself whether you ran your PR or not, right? This is what I'm getting at, is that the time isn't the only thing. That's the end result. But just, just like a soccer team, they could win a game 2-1, but does that mean they did everything right in the game? No. You got to watch the game film, you got to analyze it, you got to say, hey, we did this well, we did this poorly, we can do this better next time. Same with running. Um, okay, you ran your 3-hour and 35-minute marathon and that was your, that was your goal, um, but you're telling me you did everything right? No, come on, you know, same thing if you, if you didn't run 3:35, you told me you did everything wrong. No, you know, so we got it. We got to analyze and we got to, we got to be honest and pragmatic about how we approach racing and how we analyze racing.

Thank you, Chris. And for our foreign visitors, when Ben said soccer, he meant football.

I watch a lot of— I often do call it football. So Right on. Okay, there you go, there you go.

Wonderful. Um, so yeah, Sang's question actually, uh, inspired me to just, uh, like pivot and throw in a question, um, that I just— it doesn't fit the flow of the conversation.

That's okay, it's my show.

So, uh, yeah, I think, you know, you know, you're a coach, I'm coach, and I think one thing we have in common as coaches, and I'm not sure speaking for myself if it's like a strength or a weakness, it's like I think you and I both are not really big on attaboys and, you know, just like when it's deserved. Yeah, I know, but like, like, like, um, there are those coaches who are, they're, they're heavy with praise.

Uh, yeah.

And you, I remember you, I was having a conversation about this back in 2017 and you're like, you know, why do you want to pat on the back? He's back. He did what I expected. You did what was expected.

Yeah.

By winning. Um, and it's not like that makes us sound like jerks, and we're not, you know, it's just like it's a different style of coaching where, you know, like the praise comes, but it's just like, it is a little bit—

where do you go from there if you're praising the athlete all the time for stuff that they should be doing on a daily basis anyway? Then how do you get them fired up for the big day? You know? And that's what I'm saying. And that's what I learned from my college coach. He was on the total other end of the spectrum where, I mean, you never got a good job unless you really crushed it. And even then it was just like, "Way to go." But I think I learned a valuable lesson from that because look, you know, if you praise them all the time, all the time, every day, every day, every workout, then, then how do you raise your game on race day, right? Um, and I think ultimately it is about race day because it is a sport. And, um, you know, I always felt like I should stay calm and confident, um, in training and then be calm and confident as we prepared for a race. But that was my opportunity to, to kind of help you know, get them to, to a higher level on race day. And, um, yeah, I still believe in that, uh, very strongly.

Right on. Okay, that's very validating for me. I have more self-doubt around that. Yeah. Um, but, uh, any other questions from the room before I barge ahead?

Cool.

Yeah, so, um, you know, uh, so you became like an accidental professional team creator. Um, you know, just circumstances kind of lined up and seemed like right thing, right time. Um, but then you did have like— all right, there was that accidental aspect to it, but then you did have, I think it seems like, a clear vision for early on that you weren't necessarily going to just like, well, I'm just gonna do things.

Oh, we treated it like a business.

Yeah, for sure.

Is that what you're asking?

Well, yeah. And beyond that, just like, you know, maybe not just to, to have it be a copycat team. I'm gonna do— I'm just gonna do what's being done. But like having, uh, you know, a vision for doing it your way and maybe a better way. Uh, you know, we've talked about this as well in terms of like, you know, elevating the sport through tweaking the model for like, you know, what it, you know, what a professional running team is in USA.

Yeah, we, you know, we didn't just start it one day. I don't know what I made it seem like in that story at the beginning, but, um, you know, we built a business plan just like we did for the stores, um, and that business plan included making sure that we built a brand around our team. Of course, performance is number one, and it still is, because if you don't perform at a high level, no one's going to care and you're not going to have the platform. But we sort of assumed that we were going to perform at a high level and then we were going to use that platform to tell stories, tell stories about each of our athletes, humanize them, keep them up on a pedestal for sure because they're pro athletes, but also relate them to the average runner and to the fan, essentially. And so, our plan in 2014 was to do that via social media, via videos, and we did that. And at that time, believe it or not, That was pretty revolutionary. It wasn't really being done. Now, as we fast forward to now, we've got to make, we've got to continue to adapt and make new changes because people have caught up and everybody's doing that. And actually, social media isn't what it was in 2014. There's a lot more negatives that are present that weren't present back then. And so, we've got to figure out new ways to tell the stories, new ways to build the brand, et cetera. So, yeah, from the very beginning, we wanted to be, more than, and than just, just your— we, we didn't want to be a group of runners. We wanted to be a professional running team, and I think there is a difference.

And then something else we talked about, so we had people who've read Running the Dream know, like, we would have— you, you did me the favor of keeping me company when I was off the back trying to running with the pros, and we would converse about this and that. I remember one conversation where you told me about just like, you know, sort of your approach, because I mean, you mentioned you're competitive and you wanted your team to be the best team, and you had your convictions about what it took and what, you know, what was most important and what maybe wasn't as important as some other people might think. And, you know, you confess, like, I don't know all the science, but what I'm good at is building a culture. And can you speak to that? Like, that, you know, that those priorities in terms of like what really matters the most in creating, you know, a team that wins?

Yeah, I mean, I certainly believed and still believe that running is a team sport and that we make each other better. And that's what I wanted to be at the core of our, of our culture. You know, I wanted athletes that believed that same thing, that believed, hey, I, I could be good on my own, but I'll be better here getting pushed by my teammates. And I enjoy helping other people reach their goals and making them better. We needed that type of athlete in the group. And I still believe that. In terms of, like, from a percentage standpoint, how much culture matters versus how much science matters, I mean, I think they both matter, you know, of course. And I always, and still do, I'm always a little self-deprecating in terms of my narrative about— I mean, I do understand the science of it, but I always just was good at reading people.. And I've always been good at reading people. That's why I was a good salesman in the running store. I could tell, you know, what this person needed to talk about and what they wanted to— not just so much what they wanted to hear, but where I needed to take the conversation, you know, if I was selling a pair of shoes. And I always felt like it wasn't that different with athletes. I could tell what that athlete needed, and, you know, I treated athletes differently based on their personalities and what they needed. From me and, and from our program. So yeah, I think, I think those things were important, but treating them individually actually helped me treat the group collectively as well, because, you know, then when I spoke to them as an entire group, we could kind of create this, this collective culture, even though it was a group of individuals. I don't think I don't think those things have to be separate. You know, you can treat people individually and yet have a collective culture.

All right, I'm opening up the floor again. I'm just wondering, do you think you could compete collectively?

Like, you know, in the old days with Cross Country? Yeah, we would look for— he's asking if we would— if we got to compete as a team, we would look for those opportunities. There aren't a tremendous amount of them, but we would compete as a team when we could. So in the US, there's the US Club Cross Country Championships in the fall. There's the, um, there's— I mean, that's the big one. Um, there's also opportunities where you have a number of people racing in the same event, even if it's not a team scoring, and that had a team feel to it as well. But we did win the US Club Cross Country Championships on the men's side in 2015. Um, you know, I feel like the Olympic Trials is that kind of thing, because even though you're competing individually to go to the Olympic Games, you're bringing this big group, you know, whether it was the 2016 marathon trials or track trials or the 2020 marathon trials. We brought multiple athletes to those events and it had that team feeling, and I wanted it to have that team feel. And I think it helped us that it had that team feel that the 2020 trials where we ended up making the team, Alphine Tulyamuk won, won the 2020 marathon trials on the women's side. Our philosophy going into that from, from 12 weeks out was If one of us makes it, we all make it. And I think that helped us in training because in a way it took the pressure off individually. And it was like, we're making this team. And of course they all wanted to make it individually. But I think you saw when she did in fact make it and the reactions of the other athletes and crying tears of joy and celebrating all night long, all night long. You know, they were indeed happy for her and they were indeed happy for themselves to an extent. As well because they did feel like they had a part in it.

Nice. Getting back to why you said yes when I asked to embed myself with your team for 13 weeks, and also I think it relates to why maybe social media isn't quite doing it for what you want your team to be and do. Um, you know, there's this idea of like, um, you know, like giving your team reason, giving, giving people— it's really, you know, most, most running fans are runners, right? So like giving other runners, the broader running community, reasons to care about your team, to root for your team. You know, it isn't just performance. Um, And, and so like, you know, yes, I wrote a book about being with the team, but it was a one-on-one thing. Like, it wasn't maybe the most efficient thing to do. And then just yesterday when I brought, you know, Sang in to check out, you know, headquarters, you know, you gave 20 minutes of your day to Sang. Not that Sang isn't important, he's extremely important, but like, you know, you know, But, you know, you know, point being, that wouldn't happen in every team. You know, I didn't reach out to Bowerman first. Yeah, you're gonna stay out of that. Um, but like, talk about like that sort of like, you know, that, that one-on-one thing, which also gets to like, you know, your willingness to let Dream Run Camp, you know, be, you know, involved. With any Z League?

I mean, it's the same business philosophy I have had my whole life going back to the stores where I just always felt like if you can treat each person like they're important, each fan, each customer, that will come back to you tenfold. Meaning that, you know, if I went to the YMCA Health and Wellness Festival, back in 2007 and only one person came up to my booth, but I had a 20-minute conversation with that person and they left excited and they ended up coming to our store, then that was going to have a ripple effect down the road because they're going to keep coming, they're going to keep spending money, they're going to tell their friends, their friends are going to come, they're going to have a good experience, etc., etc. And I feel the same way about the team. If we have an opportunity to speak with a fan we're going to take that opportunity, me personally, or I feel like the athletes as well, because it's the same concept, right? They're going to then be a fan of that athlete or the team. They're going to watch us on TV. They're going to tell their friends. They're going to maybe buy HOKAs, right? Maybe buy Rudy Project sunglasses, etc. All of it matters. And so one person matters just as much. And in fact, almost more so because you can build a better connection in those one-on-one situations or in these small group situations than you can putting a tweet out. So I always have preferred the one-on-one or the close interaction. It's just my bag. I know.

What do we got?

Yes, Sang.

Okay.

This may or may not be a hard question. Sang, I've already spent 20 minutes with you.

I'm just kidding.

So you can answer it whichever way you want. Like, you know, like I wanna know like what's, what's hard about things that you're doing. Is there things that you're, like you mentioned social media probably being a little bit more negative. You mentioned some stuff around what's, what's the hard part about your day-to-day job, things that you've done or dealing with any of that?

I think the hardest part when I was doing all of it. So for a long time, I, coached, basically served as the executive director, wrote all the content, created all the content, et cetera, et cetera. I think the hardest part then was just the highs and lows of the athletes' performances because you built such a connection to them. And when they performed well, it was such a high high, such an incredibly high high. But if something didn't go well, if there was, you know, a race that didn't go well, which of course is going to happen, it's such a low low. And trying to stay even keeled and, you know, stay mentally healthy during those high highs and low lows was certainly the hardest part. And it's certainly the hardest part for them as well as athletes. I think in sports, that's the most difficult thing is just dealing with the emotions and the adrenaline of sport.

Yep.

Yeah.

So I'd like to wrap up with a topical question. So you just very recently this past week hired a new head coach for the team. And, you know, like, you and I talk a lot. I'm around the team a lot. I was outside the whole process, bumped into one or two candidates just around town. It's a small town, but like, I saw the news just like anyone else. I'm like, 'Who's this Jack Mulaney guy?' Yeah. Um, and visited his website, just, um, nerded out there. And, you know, I think maybe the headline is, you know, surprising outside-the-box hire for any of these elite— he's 30 years old, 31, 31, um, you know, assistant coach, um, at the Portland University of Portland. Um, and then, but, you know, like, I read his blog which is like extensive. But like, you know, I was impressed. I'm like, wow, this guy, uh, I can't wait to meet this guy. I can't wait to get to know this guy better. Just, he just seems like, um, you know, just, uh, passionate, uh, curious, smart, um, and you know, like the stuff I assume that, you know, any good coach has, like, you know, like the ability to read people, to work with people. You don't get that from the blog, obviously, because it's a blog. Um, but my take was like, I'm excited, you know, like as someone who, like, I am like a hardcore fan of the team. I'm like, this is good. Yeah. Uh, so can you talk about, you know, the, you know, the process that, that, uh, you know, you know, brought you to Jack?

Sure. Yeah, I'm excited that you're excited. That's That's good. That's good. Um, I'm trying to think of the easiest place to start. The bottom line is we had done this a year and a half ago. We brought in a new coach, Alan Culpepper, and he coached the team for a year, but he decided to not move to Flagstaff and stay in Boulder. Totally fine. Things happen, no big deal. This is, again, this is sports, you know. I think people are, oh, I can't believe it, you know, blah blah, you know, it's like It's okay, you know, um, athletes come and go, coaches come and go, um, but certainly we did want the next coach to be here for a long time, for sure. So that was, that was one of the, uh, the caveats that we were looking for, um, when we first started the process, um, I, I guess, and I think it turned out to be incorrectly so, but we, we had a bunch of things. We wanted them to have coached at the Olympic Games, uh, coached national champions, you know, um, coached blah blah blah blah blah, you know, all this stuff. And, um, and so the first group of people we brought in did have, you know, those credentials, um, and they were great and they would be great coaches and they are great coaches, um, but after each person came in, uh, we would get feedback from the athletes. And what I kept hearing— I'm not saying all 20 people said the exact same thing, we have 20 athletes on the team But there were themes, you know, there were themes. You know, I'm not sure I would connect with this person. This person seems set in their ways. You know, this person didn't seem open-minded. You know, those kind of things. And so, I started realizing, okay, like all these caveats that I had are not what the modern athlete gives a shit about, for lack of a better phrase, right? They want someone who is going to care about them, who's going to connect with them, who's going to know the latest and be learning and curious about the latest and greatest. They don't care what happened in 1995. They really don't. They weren't even born, okay? They want to know what Mike Smith's doing at NAU, what Jakob Ingebrigtsen is doing in Norway. You know, this is what they want to know, and they want someone who's just as passionate about that kind of stuff. And, and so. It kind of— our path toward finding someone took a detour or just a slight— there was a slight tweak, I suppose, in our process, all guided by the athletes. And so, then when we looked at sort of our next set of candidates, it was much more like, "Okay, is this person checking those boxes?" And with Jack, checked all those boxes, you know, um, the passion, the, the ability to connect with the athletes one-on-one, the ability to connect with them collectively, all those things were there, but his knowledge and his commitment to, um, to training methodology was, was unparalleled, honestly. And, uh, you know, whether it was him going back to school and getting his master's during the pandemic or getting his strength and conditioning certification application a year later, or creating an email relationship with Marius Bakken from Norway, who kind of started the double threshold training that you hear so much about these days, to creating a relationship with Gareth Sanford from Athletics Canada, or used to work for Athletics Canada, sports scientist, all these kind of things. And then, you know, the interview process, of course, he totally crushed it. I mean, totally crushed it. And the questions he was asking afterward, so insightful. His intelligence was very clear, and I think it was kind of a no-brainer, you know, in the end, really, which was nice. And sometimes you just— after you make a big decision in life, you just— there's just— you just know. You just— there's a way that you feel, and I just felt so good about it. And now that he's here, and he's been here for even just a week. I just feel good about it, and it makes my life easier because my, my whole thing moving forward— because look, I'd be still coaching the team if it wasn't for the fact that I thought we needed to adapt. And the way I think we need to adapt is I think we need to, to be more like a cycling team. I think we need to have multiple sponsors. We need to create a brand that has a much more professional feel to it because I think the grassroots kind of brand that we created in 2014. I think we've moved beyond that. Not to say that we don't care about each and every fan, as you said, like, we still, we still have that same philosophy, but we, we're just competing at such a high level now, um, and we need to be, um, a little bit, uh, we— our approach needs to be a little bit different. And, and, uh, again, as I said, social media is different, things are different now, and, um, we, we need somebody, in this case myself, that's committed to to building that brand and bringing our team to a whole new level where, again, nobody's at in the running world. And so that's what I want to do. But I can't do that unless I can have complete faith in our head coach. And I certainly do. So I'm excited about what he's going to do with the team. And then I'm excited about what myself and Jen are going to do with the brand.

Any final questions? From the gallery before we wrap up. Yes? One last thought, and maybe the answer is, I don't know, you're doing it already, but is ultra running beyond the marathon distance important to you?

Yeah, so he's asking, you know, what other directions we might go with the athletes themselves. Right now we're very focused on the mile to the marathon. We feel like that's our bread and butter, and, you know, I— business guy, as you maybe can tell, and I think of it like Chipotle, right? The reason I love Chipotle, not just the taste of the food, but I love their model, I love their brand, right? You go in there, you have 4 options. You know what Chipotle is and you know they're good at what they do. If they started selling burgers, you'd be like, burgers? They don't know burgers. I don't know ultra running. And I think I have a tremendous amount of appreciation for ultra running, but I think it's a whole different sport. It's the same. We don't have sprinters. I think sprinting is a whole different sport. And unless we have way more funding and way bigger staff, we would be getting into things that we're not really experts at if we did ultra running or if we did sprinting. 5 or 10 years' time, maybe. No, of course, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I think I think, I don't think beyond about 5 years, you know. I'm kind of a 5-year plan guy, and usually I, if I do well, I get beyond that 5-year plan before 5 years ever comes. But yeah, who knows, who knows. But I think, I think right now we just made this expansion because for a long time we were just kind of maybe 5K, but certainly 10K to the marathon. And we only recently made this expansion to the, to the track athletes, and it's been going very well. But I I think we have a lot of room to grow and improve with the current roster before we think about another sport entirely. Not recruiting for ultra running, just simply cheering for the HOKA ultra running athletes.

That's all we're doing at this point. 800-meter runners need not apply.

Well, we like the 800, but maybe not pure 800.

800, 1500. Yeah. Right on. Okay, well, we'll let you off the hot seat. We got Jamaican jerk tacos, as I mentioned, coming up for anyone who cares to partake. Thank you so much, Ben. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Right on. This is it for episode number whatever of Live from Dream Run Camp. Please tune in next time. Good night. How are you saying we're still alive? Oh, this is embarrassing. That was not a clean wrap.

Take it from the top. Oh, I'm sorry, it wasn't on. Thank you guys, that was cool. You an ultra runner? Yeah, yeah, I love ultra running, but I know next to nothing about training for it.