Live With: Matt Llano

Endurance. We are, as always, at the DreamRun House in Flagstaff, Arizona. If you haven't been here yet, do come. My guest— I say this every time because I only— I get to choose the guests and they're always very special, but this one is extra double special. I've got Under Armour professional runner Matt Yano sitting next to me here. Welcome, Matt.

Thanks for having me.

Right on. Extra special because You used to be my landlord.

I was wondering where you were going to go with that. I wondered which direction you might take it, right?

Yes. And now you're my real estate agent along with your partner Brandon here. Brandon, out of frame but not out of mind. Welcome, Brandon. Um, yeah, and we've got Shelby here, also out of frame as she insisted, visiting from Virginia. She's at the end of 2 weeks here. And behind the camera assistant coach extraordinaire Lauren Clement. Um, let's dive in, shall we?

Let's do it.

Yeah, I thought we would go actually in reverse. Um, gotta mix it up.

Okay.

Um, so let's start with now. Um, I, I, I hinted that you're my real estate agent, but I also introduced you as a professional runner. So like, what?

Yeah, I, uh, I kind of took a cue out of Kira D'Amato's book a couple years ago, and when COVID kind of shut everything down and we couldn't race for however long it was, I kind of started to think past running. And I started to think like what, you know, early in the early stages of the pandemic, everyone was like, this could last years. And we don't know how long, we don't know if races are going to come back for however long. And I just kind of started to panic a little bit. I think like a lot of people did. And, um, I was just thinking what, What if, what if by the time races come back, I'm not at the top of my game anymore? I can't do it anymore. What if I get COVID and I can't come back from running? Um, so it got me thinking just past running a little bit. And I was one of those people who's always scrolling Zillow, um, looking for houses wherever I am. Um, and so, uh, it just kind of got the bug in my head a little bit to maybe start to pursue real estate and see what that might look like. And so I got my license in 2020 and, um, kind of had the mindset that, you know, maybe I'll use it if races don't come back. Maybe I'll just kind of put it on the back burner and just kind of have it. Yeah. Um, and I kind of hit the ground running. Um, the running community— literally the running community in Flagstaff, like, all wanted to buy houses in 2021. Uh, so it, it um, it gave me a good start. Um, and at that time, I got COVID in September 2020, and so it took me kind of a while to come back to running from that. But in a way, it was nice to have the real estate on the side so that, um, it took a little bit of pressure off of running. And I, you know, I had income from real estate, so I wasn't as reliant on the running income. But then it also, like, gave me the ability to just let running come back a little bit more naturally versus, you know, forcing it back, um, to try to get ready for the first marathon I could possibly run.

Yeah.

Um, and I, I actually did talk with Kira D'Amato a handful of times because at the time she was kind of on this meteoric rise and running. And, um, if you don't know, you know, just a little tidbit about her story, she was very good in college, took a hiatus of like, I don't even know, 8 or 10 years started a family, started a real estate career, came back to running, I think, in her like mid to late 30s, and then set the American record in the marathon and, um, and the half marathon.

And the half—

yeah, just has run some phenomenal races all while doing real estate as well. And so I chatted with her about that a bit, um, to pick her brain and say, you know, can I feasibly do these two things at the same time, or is my leaning into real estate, like, does that mean that I'm done with running, right? Um, and she was really supportive and she was just like, you know, you can make it whatever you want it to be. Um, you can take the pressure kind of off of both of them because you have the other one, right? Um, and it's been a learning curve. I, I don't— I wouldn't say I've gotten it like perfectly dialed, but, um I'm happy where I am and, um, you know, just trying to continue thriving in, in both realms.

Yeah. Uh, well, there's a lot to unpack there, but I'll just pick up on, uh, something you said toward the end of that answer. Um, you, you've, you, you hear it said by professional athletes, like, as soon as you start to think about what's next, you're done.

Yeah.

Or do you call BS on that?

Yes and no. Um, I think there was a long period of my life that I was very happy and satisfied with only running, and I lived it and breathed it. And I mean, you know, you lived with me for 3 and a half months, like you witnessed it. Um, I had nothing but my running and my dog, and that was it. And I was very content with that, um, with that life. Very simple, very regimented, very structured. And in the last couple years, um, I've just become more aware of my other interests and wanting to balance everything out a little bit more. Um, Brandon came into the picture, that changed things for me. Um, you know just living a more full life in Flagstaff, like, became important to me. Um, so it can go both ways because I, I am still very committed and dedicated to running, but I'm not like living and dying by those results anymore like I used to. And I think for some people that can be very freeing, and that can actually, you know, alleviating that pressure I think can lead to people having big breakthroughs. Um, in my case in particular, I haven't run PRs the last couple years, but I've been happier running some of the races that I've run. Um, but I haven't, you know, mostly been putting in 140-mile weeks like I used to. I'm working now full-time in real estate in addition to, um, you know, running a lot of miles every week, but just not 140 like I used to when I could sleep all day and, you know, just sit on the couch and lounge. Um, and I still have days that I do that, but, um, I try to be available to real estate clients and I, you know, just try to have more balance overall. Um, but yeah, I know that's a long-winded answer to your question. I think it's possible for people to thrive with balance of doing both things. Um, maybe having some times that you lean a little bit more into the running and sometimes that you lean a little bit more into whatever else you might be interested in. Um, right now we're kind of getting to the realm of getting close to the marathon trials for the Olympics. So, um, I'll probably start leaning into the running a little bit more and scaling back on the real estate a little bit for the next couple months, um, and just trying to see if I can shift that balance a little bit more towards the running, um, knowing that post-Olympic trials in February I'll swing it back the other direction again. And so it's all just kind of finding that balance and figuring out how to be happy and, um, in doing both of those things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is there, uh, anything about what makes you good at running that also makes you good at real estate?

I think, yeah, probably there's probably a lot of carryover. I think like the commitment, the dedication, the perfectionism, perfectionism, like knowing, you know, I don't know, just, uh, setting goal— like, we set goals, we set real estate goals, and we, we track them. Um, and yeah, I think to a certain extent, like, the, the perfectionism, but it's more like the habits, I think, that, that helped me form. Um, where, you know, I'm diligently reading through contracts, I'm competitively trying to win offers for my clients, or, you know, trying to get Buyers, like, if we have the sellers, we're trying to get the buyers, you know, to come up or improve their offer. So the seller gets a better deal, our seller gets a better deal. So I think there's that competitive drive that I think we've found has been kind of a fun facet of real estate that I don't know that I necessarily anticipated beforehand. I think I, in my head, it was like the, you know, we're going to be looking at pretty houses, and we're going to be like, helping people design stuff. And, you know, and there's this that's part of it, but there's a whole other realm of it that's the negotiation. And, and, um, I like that perhaps more than I thought I would. And Brandon and I have a team here in Flagstaff, and so we kind of split the, the duties, or we kind of split the deals of, you know, we think— I think you might interact better with this agent, you take this one. I might interact better with this person, like, I'll, you know— so we kind of have this team dynamic that I think works really well together, which You could also say could be a skill that was developed through training, through running.

Sure.

You know, working with a team and, and, um, yeah, setting goals as a team and figuring out how to have a good dynamic. Yeah.

So, uh, when I reached out to you with this harebrained scheme for Dream Run Camp, uh, said I'm looking for a good Flagstaff-based real estate agent, and you can be totally honest, What did you make of it? And what was it, you know, because I'm sure like in real estate you have a lot of clients who are like, I've seen a million of this kind. And then you have outliers who are like, oh, this is like a different sort of project or challenge. Dream Run Camp was a different sort of thing, but like running related. So it kind of brought the two things together for you. Give me your perspective on what, what that process was like of helping us find this place.

Yeah, I think that's been I think one of the most rewarding parts of real estate has been, you know, I mentioned in 2021 kind of, kind of hitting the ground running with a lot of running clients or friends in running who then turn into clients. Um, and I think it was a really fun way to start out because you're helping your friends, and it's— in a way, I felt less pressure because it was people that I knew. I knew I would go do a good job. I knew that I would be diligently working for them, and so I had no doubt about my ability to to, um, you know, get people these homes. Um, and having that connection to running in real estate is really the ideal thing for me. It's like my— it's my niche in running, in real— in both. It's like, you know, and everything in real estate will say niche down, niche down, and it's a scary thing to do because you feel like you're limiting your buyer pool or your seller pool. Um, but in this case, like, turns out there's a lot of runners out there.

Yes.

Um, it's, it's been a— it's been a good, um, niche for to get into. And, um, I will say, when you came to us with your idea, at first it was just so kind of out of the box and just different from anything we had done. Um, I think I've— I felt pressure in a different way, but then when we really boiled it down, it was like, okay, these are just a different set of buyer needs.

Yeah.

And so we kind of just thought of it that way. Um, and, you know, through our communications, we figured out what was best for you guys, and we went through a few iterations of that where We went down one path we thought was going to be good, and it turned out it wasn't. And so we, you know, pivoted and then ultimately found this one, which I think is a, is a phenomenal setup for you guys. And I've loved to see what you've done with it, with the backyard and the recovery lounge and just all the different things, the different elements that you're putting into it. But I think this is really the ideal— you're kind of our ideal person. You're like, you know, you're wanting to create an environment for other people to come and visit Flagstaff, which is You know, we've always been high on touring people around. I think maybe you got a little sense of that when you stayed with me in 2017, of like showing you the ropes, showing you new trails, new restaurants. Um, we love doing that, playing host. Uh, and then when we get the opportunity for somebody to actually move to Flagstaff and, and we feel like we've succeeded, like we sold them the dream, like we sold them on Flagstaff, it's the place to be. Um, and I think I've been here a long time. I've seen a lot of people come and go from Flagstaff, and obviously we always love when people stay, but, um, life happens and, you know, people come and go for different reasons. But when we get that reward of people joining the community and, and really putting down roots here, I think that that's a special thing. And I think that that was something that we found with you. And I think whether you real— I think you realize this, that you're probably going to be Putting that idea in people's brains now moving forward with the setup you have here. I think you're paying it forward. Yeah. Paying it forward and convincing people that Flagstaff is an amazing place to be. Um, and just a great community, um, with, with not only what we have to offer in the running space, but, um, just generally.

So yeah, I'll just take 15 seconds here to, uh, just say like, uh, you and Brandon did a fantastic job. And I remember we went out to lunch at, uh, tourist home after, you know, we closed. And I asked you, like, did we get the friends— friend treatment? Or like, do you guys— are you like this good with everyone? And I tend to think that like you're this good with everyone. So if you're looking for a property here in Flagstaff, you can do no better than Matt and Brandi.

Thank you.

Thus concludes the advertisement.

I did not pay him to say that.

Nope. And then now we'll get back to running. You know, for some reason, I just, uh, in preparing for this Q&A, I thought of, uh, Carlos Lopez, uh, the Portuguese runner from back in my era, um, who set a world record in the marathon at age 37. You are how old?

There's hope. I'm 35.

Yes. So yeah, I mean, 35. I mean, you're on the one hand, you're older than you've ever been. On the other hand, like, You can, like, that was just one random example, but there are lots of examples. Kira, who you just mentioned, there are lots of examples of runners. Yes.

Right on the wall right here in front of us.

Yeah. Who've done great things. So, you know, like I know, I know how passionate you are for running and, you know, just how all in you are for, you know, the quest to just see, you know, discover the ultimate limit of what you're capable of. Um, you say there's hope. Is there hope?

I think so. I like to think so. Um, it's hard. It's— my relationship with running has changed so much in the last couple years especially. Um, but I find my— a year ago I probably would have said I'm not running the trials, I'm, you know, phasing out of running, I'm going a different direction. Um, just wasn't in a good place. Um, but this year I, I've kind of tried to shift my, my mindset a little bit. And, um, I'm, I'm doing some things just for fun. I'm not running a fall marathon this year, but I'm pacing Chicago this weekend. So that was one of these things that I've been kind of wanting to dip my toes into for a little while. And I've done a couple pacing jobs now in the last couple years, and I find it's just a really fun way to connect with the running community in a different way where you're going to, you know, a world marathon major weekend, which is the atmosphere there is phenomenal. Any world marathon major. Um, and, but I'm, I'm, I'm approaching it in a different way where I'm not racing it for myself. I'm, I'm going to help other people. Um, and I'm, you know, getting a good long run out of it and I'm getting, I'm going through the motions of race day as if I were to be racing, but, um, you know, with a different kind of pressure. Um, and that's not something that I would have done a couple years ago when I was solely focused on, right, my own goals and my own ambitions. Um, especially with the Olympic trials being 4 months away, I never would have been like, I'm gonna go run this marathon for fun and help other people. Um, but it's just kind of one of these things that I wanted to do, try to change my relationship with running a little bit and, uh, have some fun with it and alleviate some of that pressure. Um, but that being said, like, I am also thinking of it as a training run. There, there is a little piece of it that's still selfish.

This is for me.

Yeah, this is still a little bit for me. Um, I am still getting, like I mentioned, that race atmosphere, you know, traveling to a race, um, from altitude, you know, figuring out how to eat, figuring out how to, you know, do all the things leading up in the days leading into the race. So it is very much like a dress rehearsal for me because I haven't run a marathon since December. Um, I don't know if I've ever gone a whole year without running a marathon. I have to think about that. Um, but yeah, just in, in trying to change my focus a little bit, um, I've started to feel a little bit of that draw coming back, like that, that really deep desire to do the little things that that just frankly I haven't really wanted to do for a little while. Like, you know, the— all the stretching and the drills and, you know, the strides and, um, you know, these crazy things John Ball has me do, you know, just all these little facets of, of training that aren't running. Running is the easy part in a lot of ways, right?

It's—

you can get yourself out the door to go for a couple miles or do a workout or do a long run, um, but it's a for me, the last couple years I struggled with the in-between time because I would finish my run and then I would just immediately shift into real estate mode.

Yeah.

And so it was like, okay, I need to finish this 10-mile run as fast as I can so I can get home, shower, go to my show.

Welcome to our world.

I know, real world. Yeah. No, but it did— it really gave me an appreciation for that. And it's, um, but it's hard, you know. It's— we've been in Phoenix a lot this summer, partially for work and partially working on other stuff, but, um, you know, if you want to train in Phoenix in the summer, you're out there at 4:00 AM, you know, if you, if you have other things to do. Um, and so that was a sacrifice I made all summer. And some days I definitely didn't want to do it, but I did it anyway. And I think getting back to a place where that is becoming second nature again, like getting out for second runs, I don't even question it. It's just, you just go do it. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm getting back to that place, which I didn't— I wasn't in that place for a while. Yeah. So I think that's a, a good direction to be moving in as we go towards the trials. Um, but I still have a lot of work to do between now and February. Right on. To be at the top of my game. But you know, the other thing too, and I, and I'm sure other people have talked about this, is that we, we tend to put so much pressure on just these Olympic trials races because it's, you know, the Olympics are kind of the pinnacle of our sport, but there are so many other races. And like, you know, I think in the last few years we've started to see people talk a little bit more about the mental health side of the sport and the pressures and anxiety that comes along with that. And I've just, I think really gotten, I've accepted that I may not ever make an Olympic team. I still want to, I still hope to, I still, I'm going to try to, but I may not. But there are other phenomenal races around the world that I can still go travel to and experience different cultures and different countries. There's so many other facets of life that this running dream can still give me. And so I'm hopeful that I can embrace those and whether or not the Olympic dream comes to fruition, like, remains to be seen. And I still hope it does, but Um, again, like I said before, I'm not living and dying by that dream anymore. Like, I'm pursuing it to the best of my ability, but not at the expense of living a life.

Yep.

Yep.

Um, I'm reminded of a moment that I described in Running the Dream when it was like my— when the talkie and I arrived on July 7th, 2017. Um, and you know, like, here we are, and I'm like, okay, Matt, what's the Wi-Fi? Password and you're like, it's Tokyo 2020. I'm like, because of course it is.

I've since changed my Wi-Fi. So nice try. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, no, and it was— I mean, that before that it was like Rio Olympics 2016 or something. Like, it was everything leading up to that was, was all day, every day running. And like I said, I thrived in that environment for a long time, and then I didn't, um, after a while. And so, um, needed to make a change for my own mental health. And like I said, it's still a work in progress, but, um, aren't we all? Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Show of hands. Yeah. Work in progress. Okay. Um, yeah, so, you know, so, you know, I know, I know, well, I was gonna say your whole story, but I know basically your story. And, uh, you know, you were like a, you know, a, you know, we had Tim Conley here last week for a Live from Dreamworld Camp, and, you know, I'm on her website, you know, it says like, you know, no one expected me to go to the Olympics. And, uh, and, and you remind me of her in, in the sense that like you were like you know, like a very good high school runner but not blue chip, probably the same.

I wasn't that good in high school.

Yeah, you were strong. You're strong, better than me. Okay, which doesn't say much. And same thing in college, you know, it's like, and then you're like, well, my, you know, my talent might be here or whatever, um, but my ambition is here.

Yeah.

And so you came out to Flagstaff and you're like, I'm doing this, and you did it. Um, and, and then, you know, we've talked a lot, you know, over the years about like your relationship with running, what it means to you. And, you know, like, your career is what mine would have been if I'd had just a little more talent, or maybe more than a little more. But like, you know, because I could totally relate to like— I mean, I remember asking you after I came back from the Chicago Marathon, it was like I had We went out to dinner one last time and I asked you, like, you know, would you have dedicated yourself to running as much as you have if you only had my talent? And you didn't have to think about it very long. You said yes. And so what, you know, time is going to march on, you know, you won't be a professional runner forever. No one is. And so like, you know, given just like what running means to you, what is running going to look like? Can you anticipate, you know, years down the line?

I hope so. I— part of the reason that I leaned into running when I was in high school, um, I, I played a bunch of sports when I was younger, um, and in high school I got to a point my junior year, the summer going into my junior year, where I've been playing soccer, um, every fall leading up to that point, and I had to make this decision. I, I kind of— I'd started running track and I was Okay. At it. So I was like, do I want to run cross country? If I run cross country, I have to give up soccer. And it was, I agonized over this decision, um, for months and imagine me agonizing over me. Um, and, uh, and, but what it came down to for me and, and the, how I decided it was I could see myself running forever. I don't see myself playing soccer forever, like for the rest of my life. I want to be a runner. I hope to be running marathons or whatever it might look like when I'm 80, if I make it that long. Like, um, if I'm, you know, out walking on a trail because I can't run anymore, I hope, I hope to still be doing that. Um, I hope that it's part of my, part of my DNA forever. Um, it certainly has been for the last 20 years or whatever it's been. So, um, I know that will change. Uh, like I mentioned, my, my relationship with running is already changing. Um, I think in a healthy way. Um, not necessarily like maybe the, the very best way for like performance-oriented goals. Um, but I think for my mental health it has, it has changed in a good way. Um, And I feel better on the days that I run. So when I don't run, I am grumpy. I'm grumpy. I don't like taking breaks. I don't like not running. Um, I just feel off. It just feels not right to me. So, um, I hope that that stays that way forever and that I can— I'm not like a, I'm not like a streak runner where I have, you know, unlimited, 10,000 days or whatever of, you know, a mile a day. Um, I don't think that will ever be me because I listen to my body and if something hurts, I don't run. Um, but other than that, I hope to run every day, at least a couple miles. And, um, it just makes me feel better.

Yep.

Yeah.

Imagine having long COVID.

I know, I feel you. There were days I thought I did, and then I think about your situation And I'm like, ah, no, I don't. Or just obviously at least not to your extent. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So kind of, you know, swiveling back and looking at your career, you know, when I, when I look back at my running journey, it's like a mix of like the regret is in there. You know, I just feel like I wasted, you know, my high school running career just being a headcase and then I quit and then I lost a decade. But then, you know, maybe if, if not for all that, I wouldn't have, you know, just had the fire in my belly that I had that really, you know, I unofficially PR'd at 10K when I was 49, you know, just because I was hungry. I wasn't burnt out. And so, like, you know, so I feel two ways, like, looking back. And I think probably most runners who've, like, have gone all in there's like, there's a little bit of regret and there's some satisfaction as well. So how do you take stock of your running career?

Yeah, I, I feel similarly. I think that they're, like you mentioned, kind of my trajectory a little bit, where I was okay in high school, but I was never, you know, the top tier. I was okay in college, but I was never the top tier. I was— I've been okay as a professional, but I've never been the top tier. Like, it's I feel, I don't know if that I can say that that's a regret. Um, but I feel like I've always been kind of on the brink of doing something that I've been really proud of and satisfied with. Um, but I've just never quite gotten it and that's always eaten at me. Um, and I think to a large extent is why I'm still running now. I mean, I, I probably, what year would that have been? 20? 2013 or 2014, I, I started talking about wanting to run under 2:10 in the marathon, and everybody at the time was like, well, who does this guy think he is? And I had run 61 minutes in the half marathon, so it wasn't an outlandish goal in my mind. Um, and, you know, looking at it now, it's the expectation— like, the Olympic standard is 2:08:40. Like, if you're not running that, you're not going to the Olympics. Shoes are different. Well, the shoes are different now, but Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I— maybe that's a regret, is like letting what other people thought get to me at the time, because I believed with every ounce of my being I could run under 2:10. Nobody else did, I don't think. Um, and then I didn't, but I've come close. Uh, but I think had I had more belief around me, I think I would have been able to do that. Um, And now I think American distance running is just, has really kind of been on the rise on the men's and women's side. And if this was the atmosphere in 2013, 2014, 2015, when I was trying to do that, I think I can confidently say I would be a sub-2:10 guy. You know, we can never change that, but I'm still gunning for it. I'm still trying. Um, I like to think I'm stronger now than I was when I was 26. Um, but my life is different now too. So, um, yeah, that's not— I don't know, not necessarily a regret, but I, I would say I've always kind of felt like I've fallen a little bit short, and that's just eaten at me. So that's, you know, kind of what's kept me going, uh, kept me motivated. I don't know, you know, I— in running, nobody's ever satisfied, right? Oh, too. So nope. Had I run 2:09:59, I would have thought I want to run 2:09:30. I want to run 2:08:59. I want, you know, you never, you never know. Like at some point you're going to run your fastest marathon and you're never going to be faster. Yeah. And you never know when that is. Right. I hope I haven't had mine yet, but I might have. Um, but it doesn't stop me from like waking up every day believing that I still have something to give. And, um, it may sometimes be more performance-oriented, it may sometimes be more community or process-driven, um, but ultimately it's still getting me out the door. So different now than it used to be, but still makes me happy.

Yeah, I think about that phenomenon a lot, like when, when when you have— when you really have your peak performance. And, you know, it might not be the, the best performance you could have had if all the stars had aligned, but like, that's a thing, you know, for everyone who goes all the way with running. They, they have their best race, but like, when you're in the moment, like, it feels like you're on an upward trajectory, right? It's like This is the best I've ever done. Just imagine what— but, but, yeah, you know, it's like, no, actually, you just peaked.

Yeah.

Um, uh, but, you know, I think, you know, like, you know, so someone like looking at, at your career from maybe like a more objective standpoint would be like, like, holy shit, no one saw— no one saw that 61-minute half marathon. But so like to the extent that you can be objective about yourself. I mean, you know, you know, I, I, I was under the same roof with you. I saw the way you went about sport, and it seemed like— I mean, ultimately what we're all trying to do is like fulfill our potential. And, and, and it's like there's, there's your potential, which is kind of baked in, and then there's what you do with it. I mean, you've got to feel like just the way you've gone about it, just like, you know, the grit, the professionalism for years and years and years. Don't— can't you give yourself a pat on the back?

Yeah, no, I, I— yeah, I mean, there, there are things I've done well and there are things that I've not done well. Um, but yeah, no, I, I see what you're saying. I don't disagree with you. I think it's just You know, as very motivated, goal-oriented people, we're never satisfied. And I've always been very type A, very like, if I set a goal, I want to achieve it. I had that goal from, you know, in regard to the marathon for me, it was never like, I want to run 2:20 and then I'm going to run 2:18 and then I'm going to run 2:16 and then I'm going to run 2:14. No, it was from the first one, I want to run 2:10. So it wasn't this moving goalpost of like, yeah, I set a goal, I achieved it, and I wanted more. It was, I set a goal and I've run, I don't even know how many, 14 marathons now or something, and I haven't gotten it. Um, and like we said, I don't know if I ever will. I'm still chasing it. I'm still trying. I still believe that there is a part of me that can do it. Um, but my life, like I said, is different now. So, um, if the way that my life is prevents me from achieving that goal, I'm at peace with that. Um, but yeah, I, to your point, I, I, I don't think anybody anticipated that I would run 61 minutes or 2:11. Um, if that's how things end, I get it. I just have very mixed feelings about it.

Yeah. No, you, you wouldn't have achieved those things if you didn't have that mindset.

Yeah.

That's just how it is. You got to take— I mean, it's the cost. It is. I mean, it is like you are truly never satisfied.

Yeah. Um, and here, like with the, with the marathon that— so I ran my, my PR in 2019 in Berlin, um, to 11:14 and Man, that race, I was like, I just wanted the Olympic standard that year was 2:11:30. So I executed my plan for that day. But like you said, I'm like, oh, I could have run faster. You know, you're in the race. I'm like, oh, I'm holding back. This feels too good. I can run faster. But it was at, at that time, I think only maybe, maybe one or maybe two people had run the Olympic standard that year. Going into 2020. And so I was like, well, if I run the Olympic standard, that puts me in a pretty good spot. And so I just wanted to play it safe. Kind of regret that now because to our whole discussion, like, we don't know when our best days are going to be. Um, but I remember another, another coach approached me in the, in the, in the last like 2 weeks, um, leading into that race. I was coaching myself at the time and they said, um, you should go for 2:10. Why not? I was like, well, I want to be safe. I want to get the Olympic standard. Like, if I go for 2:10 and I blow up and I don't get— and I fall short of every goal, right, then where does that leave me? Um, so that's still— it's another one of the— you know, it still eats at me. I'm like, oh, I felt good that day. I had a good day. It was a great— it was a— it was a good weather day. Berlin is usually pretty good for that. Um, maybe I'll go back and, and Every time I've run Berlin twice, I've PR'd both times. Maybe I'll have to go back to Berlin next year and try to notch another one. It's been good to me so far.

So I know.

Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah, rewinding further, I said we were going to go backwards. So, but before I knew you in 2014, you became the first— was it American professional runner or professional runner in the world to come out as gay?

To my knowledge, the first one in the world. Yeah, but nobody— I don't know, just nobody talked about it at the time. So I, um, yeah, I think it was— you started to see it in some other sports, but still there were like— there was one retired NBA player, there was one retired MLS player, um, one active diver at the time, um, but nobody in running talked about it. I mean, I don't think I was— I'm sure there were other people that were out in their communities or with their friends and families, but nobody talked about it. So yeah, as far as you know, publicly out, however you want.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny because like when I— when I— when those words come out of my mouth, I think about, wow, shoot, that was almost a decade ago and the list remains very short.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, is that surprising? To you?

It is and it isn't. I think it's just become so much more socially acceptable like in friend groups that my hope is that people don't feel the need as much to like make an announcement or to be very public about it. I think I've seen, I've witnessed myself on the smaller scale of college teams or some professional groups that people are very much out with their friends and training partners and coaches and communities. But maybe there's, I don't know, I still think there's value in people being public about it, a ton of value, but I certainly understand people not wanting to carry that weight. Mm-hmm. But even that aside, I think people feeling the comfort of being out with their friends and family and communities is a lot different than what a lot of people could have said 10 years ago.

Right.

So I feel like we've come a long way. There's still a lot of progress to be made still too, but I would love to see people be more public about it, especially as there's been more of a talk, more of a an emphasis on mental health. We're seeing people kind of destigmatize mental— the mental health space a little bit. I would love to see a similar thing in some other realms of our beings that a lot of people just don't maybe think have anything to do with sport or performance, but I would argue they have everything to do with it. Right. Yeah. So I would still like to see that be different, but I can't say I'm entirely surprised that it's not shifted a whole lot.

Um, yeah. So is there like a parallel to be drawn between, um, the shift, the more recent shift in your relationship with running that you affected for mental health reasons? Um, and, and coming out, like, was it like, was that something that you did for the sake of your mental health that you felt confident would also help your running?

100%. Yeah. Yeah. I wrote a blog at the time when people still wrote blogs and didn't just post everything.

Wait, blogs are obsolete?

I don't know. You might consider. No, now, now people just write long Instagram captions. No, I wrote a blog at the time and I talked about that and I said, You know, again, part of the motivation was selfish. I felt like it was something that was really weighing me down. Um, I felt like I couldn't have close relationships with friendships with people because I had built up all these walls and, um, I wouldn't talk to training partners. I wouldn't talk to coaches. I wouldn't talk— like, I just was very walled off from everybody. Um, and Yeah. When I really started to think about it, um, it was like that part of my being that I was suppressing. And then I was like, man, this is just too much weight to carry anymore. And, um, and I thought, uh, what year was it? 20— it was 2013, late 2013. Um, that I decided to write the blog post and put it out there. And, um, immediately felt the weight lifted. Um, a month later was when I ran the 61-minute half marathon. Um, I just felt, yeah, freer, happier. I felt like I could connect with people, which, a little bit more, which I hadn't at all really before that. Um, it was very much like a mental health thing because I was like slowly dying inside. Uh, And in more recent years, I, yes, made another kind of similar shift, um, where I was so performance-driven for such a long time that I felt like I was slowly dying inside. I was extremely unhappy. Um, even honestly, when I ran my 2:11, when I ran the PR in the marathon, I was very unhappy that year. Um, through some things outside of running, some things in running, I just was not in a good place. And That's one of those things like, man, I could have run faster if the circumstances were better. But, um, yeah, I realized that like this singular pursuit of running sub 2:10, making an Olympic team, getting top 5 at a world marathon major, whatever the goal was, I was pursuing that at the expense of friendships and living a life and having a career outside of running and, um, didn't want to do that anymore. So I, I made the shift at first believing that, um, if, if my happiness and outside of running comes together, that will carry over into like performance, like my performance will skyrocket again. Um, so in a way I was still very performance-driven. Um, and I, and I think for that reason, I still struggled. I still was seeing the ultimate end goal as the running performance instead of like the process of just being happy with my day-to-day life. Um, I would do that differently. Now if I could. That's a regret, I guess you could say. But, um, yeah, so long, long answer, as all of mine have been. Um, greatest is yes, it was, uh, my decision to come out was like mental health driven, which has also been kind of the, the reason for shifting in these last couple years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find myself as a coach, you know, telling certain runners, like, the best thing you can do if you're running is care a little bit less about your running.

It's great advice. Yes, great advice. But nobody likes to hear that.

No, and not everyone needs it, but some runners do.

Yes, a lot of runners probably.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, well, uh, we— I, I know you— so you have a, an, uh, early flight to catch tomorrow, and, uh, Really excited to see, uh, hear how the pacing experience goes. Yeah. Um, so we'll, we'll wrap up, but before we do, I just wanted to open up the floor to anyone else who would like to shoehorn in a question for Matt while we got him.

What group are you pacing? I'm going to be pacing a 2:20 group as far as I know. Um, they've left a window for me, so it's possible that that could change a little a little bit depending on the conditions and depending what people actually want in that group. But I think the intent is to be kind of some of the lead American women. Um, so we'll see kind of what they want to shoot for on Sunday, and that's the, that's the group I'll be leading.

You're gonna get some camera time.

I, I, yeah, I'm sure. Lovely.

Yeah.

Yep.

Hopefully, yes.

Yeah, hey, uh, well, I just mean, yeah, hopefully the lead American— yeah, you know, hopefully not hopefully for myself. Hopefully the lead American women will, yes, you know, be thriving in this race, and as a result of that, I may play.

Totally understood. Yes, make sure your hair is nice.

Yeah, Brandon always gives me a hard time. He says like Did you even just run a marathon? Because apparently my hair is always— it'll look like that when he's done. I haven't decided if I'm wearing a hat yet or not. So you should not. Lauren, what do you got? So we talked a lot about regrets, but I would like to hear what has been— if you can pick one moment, like, which moment has been the most satisfying, fulfilling, or just— the thing that pops into my mind is And we've kind of touched on this, but maybe from a little bit of a different angle, but, um, and it's not really a singular moment, but just generally betting on myself kind of, um, to Matt's point, like, and I talked about it, I wasn't like the top recruit coming out of high school. I wasn't the top recruit coming out of college. Um, but I just kept doing it. I was just stubborn. And I thought if I just keep doing this, like eventually I'm going to get better. I'm going to be like good enough. Um, and I always just, I just kept kind of betting on myself and all these different moments in my career. And probably the first one I could really, well, I mean, you can really take it all the way back to high school, but one of the more definitive ones for me probably would be, um, the 2014 US Half Marathon Championships when I ran that 61-minute half marathon. Um, I bet on myself. I know, like, I, my PR going into that race that year was 1:03:30, 1:03:26. Um, I PR'd by almost 2 minutes in that race. And I just, um, workouts hadn't indicated that I was going to do that. Uh, but I wanted to make a world team and like believed in myself that year, probably more than anybody else did. Uh, definitely more than anybody else did. Um, and it paid off. And I think there were a couple moments in my career that I did that really well. Um, so maybe, yeah, a piece of advice I would pass on to other people is like, don't be afraid to bet on yourself because, you know, you'd be selling yourself short otherwise.

Beautiful. Great way to close. I just want to like check my Matt Yano trivia. Was it 101-47?

Yeah.

Yes. Idetic memory, things I really care about. All right, well, thank you so much. This has been a true pleasure. So, um, we got for dinner— thanks, I'm really glad you guys are hanging out— uh, turkey burgers from My Racing Mate Cookbook, which I've seen on a shelf at your house.

We have it. Yeah, we have 4 or 5 of your books at least, I think.

Okay.

Uh, yes.

So I can't take credit for the recipe, but they're really good turkey burgers. So thank you all for tuning in. And yeah, we'll have another, like, not quite as good guest next week.

Is that how you end every show?

No, only this one.

All right.

That was great.

Awesome. What an ending.