Are Men Less Attracted to Successful Women? | Matthew Hussey

The women who value money on that level and the men who value their power with money on that level tend to find each other and they tend to make each other quite unhappy.

Tammy says, honestly, men want to be providers because I don't need a man for that. They feel intimidated, especially since I made a nice income. I've had a few back off and state to me that A woman always wants the day equal or higher her station or income. So this is men have said that to her. Men are telling her what she wants. I have told them I don't need a man. I want one in my life that's much more valuable. I have other successful female friends who have been single for a long time and we believe we've priced ourselves out of the market in many areas of our lives for being so goal oriented. so some people had this response of saying, well, men, they, they don't, if they don't feel needed, if they don't feel like they can provide enough, they are intimidated by that and they back off.

Men are probably going to have to get more and more used to this one because there's more and more women earning better paychecks than men, but and.

The statistics show that there will be increasing amounts of female breadwinners in households. There will only be more in years to come. So it's, it's something that's going to have to be dealt with one way or another.

Right.

Yeah. Look, if we were talking to men right now, I, I do think that we would be saying to men that, you know, if anything, this should be celebrated as, oh, like we We can be a team in this department. I'll contribute everything I can, you contribute everything you can. But the problem is when men, firstly, let's just take a generous interpretation of this. I would say there are two ways to look at this through a compassionate lens from the male perspective. one is people know what they grew up with. So there are a lot of men that got brought up by a man and a woman who had traditional roles. And by traditional, I mean that their mum raised them and their dad, quote, provided. And that's become their model for what each person brings to the relationship. And he's his foremost role models modeled that dynamic. So he's going off of that. And then, of course, if he also kind of grew up culturally in a society where that was the norm, then he came to learn that a man's value was that he was the provider. So, There's part of that that's just historic imprint. It's not necessarily him having some innate sexism. It may manifest itself in a kind of sexism, but it's not coming from a badly intentioned place. It's coming from the place of, this is the world I know. I don't know any different. And if I wasn't providing, then what's my value? because I always saw my dad's value as providing. And maybe my mum always taught me that my dad's value was providing from the way that she talked to him. He puts food on this table. He goes out and works every day so that we can have the lives we want. If she reiterated that over and over again, then he learned that his dad's value was that his dad provided for the family. So he doesn't necessarily know any different. That's one thing. Now, for the guys that say, a woman is always looking to date someone who's of equal financial status or higher, there's also a very good chance they've heard that from women. I have heard that from women. And I don't mean on a date. I mean that we have plenty of women who have come to us for coaching over the years who have said exactly those words. I feel like I need to date someone who is who I feel like I want to date someone who's in the same financial position as me. And by the way, look, it's hard to discern how many of those women are saying that because they're worried that men who earn less are going to be intimidated versus saying that because they're more attracted to guys who earn the same. But there is a decent proportion of women who are telling themselves, I would be put off by a guy who has debt. I would be put off by a guy who isn't in the same financial situation or better than me. There are women who will be put off by that. So Just as a guy learns in his lifetime that there, if he's not socially, if he's not the culturally or societally defined standard of tall, he will learn in his life that there are a decent number of women who quite openly say, I don't want a short guy. Therefore, men go into a lot of dates going, She's too tall for me, which isn't a sexist proposition, I would argue, for most men. It's an insecure one. The proposition is, I've come to know that a lot of women actually don't want a short guy. And so the same could be said of men who are feeling like they have no value in that situation or that women won't want them, that I have learned in my life that women aren't as attracted to guys who earn less money than them.

Right, so it's a kind of preemptive defence.

Yeah, it's a, I don't want to be rejected. And therefore, I'm quite early on pointing out that if I come to a date and realize that you earn more money than I do, then I might reject myself now before you decide later down the line that even though you're with me, you'd prefer that guy who just came along, who just came into your life as a friend or as a colleague or whatever, who is in a better position than me. In other words, I don't want to be in a situation where I feel like My future with you is compromised by the competition. Yeah. In a situation where I am inevitably going to lose.

Yeah, it was quite funny. I was watching that Netflix show, the one, the Ultimatum, and it was about people being frustrated, giving ultimatums about, you,'re not gonna marry me, you don't wanna commit yet, you don't want kids. And for one woman, she kept going to different guys in the dating show where you date around to see if there's someone else better for you. And all the guys kept saying, I wanna get my money right or my career right before I, like, I'm not ready for that yet. Like, I wanna be with someone, but I haven't got my, like, money where I want it to be in my career, so I need to focus on that first. And she was like, oh, you all say the same thing. Like, I don't care. Like, she was like, I've got, you know, I've got a career. Like, I don't care that your career isn't, like, fully at the top level yet. You're not a top level executive. Like, let's just get married. Her exasperation was like, every guy says this thing as if he's- and it.

Is that- Are the guys saying that's why they couldn't be in a relationship or that's why they couldn't be married?

They like had girlfriends and things, but in the show they were saying like, that's why I'm just not ready yet, because I just haven't got where I'm not where I'm at in life yet to settle down. And in a way, I think that was all like, it was all their insecurity that they were thinking, internalized stuff of like, if I'm not playing at a high enough level, like I'm at risk here, like I need to make sure that I'm safe and I'm going to be able to be a good provider. And it's a fear-based kind of thing.

Let's be clear, sometimes it's not just fear-based, sometimes, and this is the less compassionate lens, sometimes it's aspiration-based, right? Sometimes it's I'm going to be able to date someone that I think is of more beauty, more status, more something if I get to that level financially. So the unwillingness to commit is kind of, for some of those guys, derived from the idea that their stock is going to go up. And when their stock is going to go up, they are going to, in their mind, trade up. So I think that there is some of that that plays into it too. What I would argue is that someone who takes that approach to life, you may abhor the idea of that kind of person, but they inevitably end up paying the price. for being that kind of a person.

You know, it's funny you brought up that show, Steve, because there's a character on the show. Now, I'm not saying I watched it.

I mean, could I just say it's a bombshell that both of you have watched this show to me? I didn't know that you two were watching this show.

Well, I have an excuse, 'cause I'm married and I can at least pretend to begrudgingly watch it with my wife.

I've heard this show is really dark. because they take people whose situation is on the rocks and they say the best way to see if you want to actually commit or not is to throw you into a house with another person or with other people. And stuff happens. Like, it's so dark.

Yeah, and they try and sell the premise as a moral one and it's completely ridiculous.

Well, that's reality TV. I mean, they always try and sell the premise as a moral one. It's, that's how they sleep at night.

So, but the other side of this coin, which I'm getting at is like, yes, there's a lot of these guys that don't feel like getting married until they feel like they've earned enough and they're ready financially secure to like kind of be in charge of the family. But there was a character on the show, Alexis, who as she went and she gave her boyfriend the ultimatum, And then she went out to date these other guys. She kept pretty much just announcing everybody like, well, I just want to make sure that the guy makes more money than me. Like, I'm not sure my guy makes enough money. And I don't know if I want to give away the show, but that whole speech she gave ended up being a little bit skin deep. Like, as soon as she realized that she might not be meeting somebody who was down for that or who was making more money, she defaulted pretty back to her previous relationship. I don't know how to dance around it without giving away the show.

But that's part of the cynicism that gets created in some men, is that some men have developed a cynical view of women because they've either seen or experienced something like that. And they've decided that, well, A, when my stock goes up because I make more money, I'm gonna be able to attract a better mate. And B, as long as I don't make that money, I'm not safe. Because if your worldview is that of attracting someone based on your financial status, it hits you both ways. you feel powerful if you have money, and as a result, you think you can get a mate. If you don't have money, you think that you're vulnerable and that someone won't love you. But that's because you've put your value and money in the first place. So it, your whole relationship with money is one of, of power and, and that for a lot of guys is it affects women because women who get with guys can find that these men have massive insecurity around the fact that they make money or it affects other women because some of those guys leave once they make a lot of money. So it has a massive effect on women one way or the other. But it's all derived from a male relationship with money that is one of power, and it's one that, sadly, is reinforced by some women.

So, Matt, you make an interesting point about power and money. I think it might not be quite as cynical as power. It might just be more attraction and status. you know, like, I just think there is. There is sort of a reason that the whole Cinderella story is like a woman lead character and not a man lead character. Like, I just think, is it. Whether it's culture or biology or what, like, what. What men. What makes men attractive to a lot of women is status. Money gets status. Fame gets status. Just being cool gets status. And I do think that on a formula of attraction, I just wonder if there's a sort of asymmetry between the status of a man having more to do with the attractiveness of that man, the status of a woman having to do with the attractiveness of that woman.

Well, look, yes, I think that's true. I'm not saying that men thinking that money means power and power can be defined as the power to attract people. But I'm not saying that men associating money with power isn't completely unfounded. With an entire group of people, it is absolutely founded. Men's experience has been that they are more attractive to more women, they're attractive to more women if they're in a solid financial position. And look, there's That's not, it's not like the world is divided into women who care and women who don't care. Like it's not, life isn't that simple. There's people who make it the only thing that matters. There's people that don't care at all. And there's also women that find themselves in the much, I would argue, the very normal and human position of, It's not the only way I make my decision, but it's nice to know that someone is able to contribute on that level. And it's also fun to be with someone where you can just go on dates. You don't have to think about whether you can or you can't do something. You can just go on vacation. There's a sense of freedom and fantasy and excitement that comes with options in life. And being with someone who is successful creates options. And so there is a natural, I don't, whenever someone kind of denigrates women for being attracted to successful guys, I always find that to be I always have a bit of a problem with that because I'm like, well, wouldn't you be too? If I was a woman, I'd probably be more attracted to people who had some level of success if for no other reason than what it indicated. If someone's success was a result of determination, if it was a result of ingenuity, if it was a result of someone being a good problem solver, if it was a result of someone who had discipline, if it was a result of someone who was responsible. Like, these are attractive qualities in a person. Now, if the only way you define success is how much money someone has in a bank account, that's a problem, right? Someone could be an incredibly successful Professor who doesn't make a lot of money, but that's the fact that they are where they are is still the result of many years of hard work and discipline and. passion and all of these attractive qualities. But in a lot of cases, that success does go hand in hand with money, and that doesn't mean you're wrong for being attracted to it. Where we tend to get more cynical about people is when we see that the only lens for what constitutes success is money. And of course, there are women like that, and men know that, and the women who value money on that level and the men who value their power with money on that level tend to find each other and they tend to make each other quite unhappy.

I think a really interesting philosophical question that you just made quite distinct for me at least is like, is that those really beautiful attractive qualities you just listed? determination, discipline, passion. Is there an unfair asymmetry where, I guess, gets to the crux of this question about intimidating women, is it that those qualities are seen as more attractive in a man than they are seen in a woman? Is that what people that are complaining about the dating scene for women and coming across to intimidating to men? Is that really what they're complaining about? Whereas like actually men saying they're intimidated by me is a euphemism for my great qualities aren't being valued the same way that they would be if I was a man.

They just don't count for as much.

Yeah.

Or anything.

Yeah, I think there's some, I don't know if it's cultural, but I do think there might be some truth to that, where it's just like, there might be an asymmetry there. It just might not be quite fair. with the way a lot of men are valuing women in the dating scene.

Well, and Jamieson, to corroborate that, we have a woman who actually said something similar where she said, I have an executive level finance career, a master's degree, and I've raised eight children as a single parent doing foster care while building that career and putting myself through college. I've been told I'm intimidating because of my passion and ambition. Guys seem intimidated by my education and career, even though I come from poverty and respect blue collar work. One of my guy friends says it's my level of independence that makes me intimidating, that my ambition and accomplishments are like a mirror that guys look into and see what they are really made of.

Well, I mean, I'm just going to say it. You've done a lot of shit. That's a, that is a, you've done a lot in your life. I'm intimidated.

But I guess, yeah, that's the crux of it.

I think that the distinction we have to make is that you, I want to be careful how I say this.

Because.

There is firstly, if you've done, let's take this stage by stage. on a human level. If you've done a lot of things in your life, you are intimidating to a decent number of people, man or woman. Right. There's. I've been told I'm intimidating plenty in my life, and that's. That I've been told that by women. So that's not a. That's. That's not exclusive to. the dynamic of men being attracted to women. It can also happen in reverse, too. Humans that have done a lot are intimidating. I would submit it to you, Madam, who wrote in that if you were a man and said you'd done all of that, you'd still be intimidating. You're just a very, that is a strong, determined, robust person. who has done everything you've done. So let's start there because I think that takes some of the charged nature of this conversation out of it. Okay. Then you have the question of, but is it more intimidating if a woman is those things than a man? If a woman has done a lot of stuff, if she's earned money, if she's self-sufficient and so on. And I think there is a point to be made, as Jamison said, that some of the things that count on a high level as a man don't count in the same way as a woman. Now, I'm not entirely sure that that point is, if you take, say, discipline as one of the traits, that is attractive. I'm not sure that you could say that discipline isn't attractive in women, but I think that there's an argument to be made that the way discipline shows up is attractive in different ways, depending on men or women. So you could potentially make an argument that the discipline that makes a man go to work every day and build a business is attractive, but it's not as attractive the other way around to a lot of men. You could say though that if a woman wasn't disciplined about looking after herself or about if she was completely disorganized in her life, if you went to her place and it was chaos, then there would be something unattractive about that. I know everything I'm saying right now sounds highly sexist, but that's kind of what we're talking about, right? That is what we're talking about, the sexism, that these traits, the way that men find them attractive, or a lot of men, I think that everyone can understand the context of this particular episode that we're talking about generalizations, that a lot of men might find discipline attractive if it shows up in other ways, But they might be intimidated if that discipline shows up in his lane, so to speak. Because his lane, if he's, say, an entrepreneur, is that's how he feels significant. That's how he feels special. And if you are showing discipline or drive or determination or ingenuity in his lane, then he's more likely to be intimidated. and therefore less attracted because I don't, you know, it's like it's, this is kind of scary to me and I don't know how to handle it. So I do think that is a factor. Now, let's just paint a more rosy picture of this. I actually think that men, I have an optimistic view of the way that men are shifting. I won't speak to how fast they're shifting, but I do think that men have shifted to some extent and are shifting in the sense that I think that the number of men who would say, you,'re in my lane, will have decreased. I think a lot more men look at someone who's killing it and are like, whoa, that's awesome and attractive. And maybe it is a little scary, but not in the sense that it's not attractive. It's just scary in the sense that, oh shit, I've gotta, I'm gonna have to be on my game in order to keep you because you have a hell of a lot going for you. So I do think to that extent that more and more men see their person as a teammate. and I do think more and more people as an equal and a teammate, I should say, and I do think that more and more people are evolving to the point of being able to. They don't see things through that, that kind of stereotypical, historical, conservative lens of this is what a woman is supposed to bring, and this is what I'm so supposed to bring. I do think there are less of those men. They clearly still exist. And there's a lot of the, the kind of gray areas of guys who wouldn't ever deem themselves to be sexist, but are competitive. If they think that someone is either in their lane or if they think that the way that you're showing up and achieving in your life has robbed me. of what I thought I could bring to the table. And therefore, I feel intensely vulnerable because I don't know if I'm going to be enough for you if you take away this special weapon that I have, this special move, I think, is a nicer way of putting it. I thought I had this special move to attract people, and this special move doesn't mean a lot to you. because you have it too, and you don't need that from me. So therefore, what am I? What's my worth outside of this?

Well, I think there's definitely guys like that, but I contend, I went to a prestigious university, Matt, and I've said this before to you, but all the guys I know from there who were good friends have, you know, high falutin' degrees, PhDs, they went for very intelligent, successful women. There wasn't this idea of like, oh, I don't want someone like that. They, you know, quite hearteningly, they're with also competent, attractive, intelligent people. Like, it's not like most successful people want to be around people who they feel are playing at a high level as well.