“Did Millennials Ruin Dating for Gen Z?”

Foreign.

Guys, it's official. We screwed it up.

What?

Dating, Us, millennials, our lot, we are responsible for toxic dating culture. We are responsible for the fast food style dating that happens these days, for the obsession with texting and swiping and not being able to meet in the real world. Because our generation are the ones who created the dating apps that we all know and hate.

I didn't create a dating app.

And now, Stephen, millennials have the gall to create podcasts talking about healthy love. It's as if you know what that's like. The Sacklers who created. What's the one? Oxycontin. Yeah, it's like if they started a whole bunch of rehab clinics.

What podcasts have you been watching?

What do you mean Sacklers?

Oxycontin.

Well, you know, Dope Sick is a really.

You invent dating apps, you create a whole bunch of just completely abject dating and toxic, you know, situationships and addiction to our phones. And then you have the gall to talk about what healthy love looks like. How dare, how dare we?

So let's talk about it.

Well, Stephen, part of the inspiration for this episode was you being quite keen to talk about some of the research out there about the way Gen Z is approaching dating differently from the millennials.

Yeah, there was quite a few things on where the trend line is going and Gen Z being at the tip of the spear, so to speak. There's some research on how Gen Z are deprioritizing romantic relationships. The idea that finding a romantic partner isn't a primary goal. Instead they're prioritizing mental well being and dreams for their career. Their other friendship, Gen Z are more.

Wait, can we just, can we just pause on that for a moment? Because that's interesting to me, if true. But is, are we really, can we take that at face value? The idea that Gen Z are not dating because they're focusing on their mental health? Because that seems a bit, that seems a little bit potentially disingenuous to me. So much of Gen Z lives on their feed. So the idea that like it would, I would understand that if it was like we're done with dating because dating is so toxic. Instead what we're going to focus on is real life interaction with other people. That would have real legitimacy. But I'm wondering if the idea that I'm focusing on my mental health instead and then what I turn to is my phone. That's not, that's not focusing on your mental health instead. So I just want to challenge that because I'm all for If Gen Z are genuinely saying this culture is, I'm not signing up for it anymore. And I think, by the way, Gen Z have really good reason to do that, because Gen Z, unlike the millennials, did not grow up without the apps. And then in adulthood, essentially start seeing the invention of all of these things that change their lives. For better or worse, Gen Z have always had the apps that, as far as dating apps go. And when I'm talking about dating apps, I'm not just talking about actual, you know, dating apps that have declared themselves to be so. I'm talking about Instagram, I'm talking about TikTok. I'm talking about everywhere where you can interact Snapchat with another human being.

You know what the first dating app ever was, was? Do you know? Do you know it?

Oh, you're gonna say MSN Messenger. Oh, yeah, kinda. Yeah, it was.

Right. And the chat rooms, but you couldn't find.

Could you just find people on MSM Messenger?

You could add people.

No. Or someone would put you in a group chat. There'd be someone from school you fancy, then you go, oh, I found your online handle. How's it going?

What was it called? Msn. I don't know. Anyway, I used to love MSN Messenger. Spent a lot of time on that same. Did you guys used to. Was it just me or did you guys used to like change your name to like cryptic lyrics? Oh, no, we're going through a hard time. So that people were like, what's wrong? And you were like, it's fine.

No, I didn't.

I did know people who did that.

Yeah, I was one of those people.

No, I would talk to someone that's from, you know, that I fancied, would be talking all night and I'm an MSN Messenger. But then I'd be shy at school the next day, be like, all right.

Yeah, just pretend they don't exist.

Do you remember discovering that on a landline you could do a three way call?

I do remember that.

I remember that being a big deal where you'd sit on like a three way call, but like there'd be one of the one person on. There would be someone you fancied and the other one would just be like a mate or their mate or something. And it was like easier to pretend like you had the COVID of the fact that three of you were all talking on the phone, but really you were only on the phone for one person on that call.

I didn't do that. But that sounds, that sounds like I missed out on A trick there.

It was fun. By now that I think about it, I think my mate was thinking the same thing. So, like, we both thought that we were having a moment with the one girl on the call and she was just, she was just loving the attention from both. She was like existing in, in Twilight.

Yeah.

So Gen Z had none of those things.

Gen Z always had dating apps. And so I understand, you know, Gen Z being like, I am social media over this. Yeah, they've always had them. I'm over this. This is, this is awful. They're so much closer to them. And in that way, like Gen Z, in a strange way, they have a lot more skepticism of them in many ways. I think they're, they see through them much more easily because they're like, we know this game inside out. We've grown up with it. Whereas millennials, I think there's a lot more. There was a novelty to millennials having dating apps because millennials were like, oh my God, like, this is unbelievable. I can just meet someone in my pajamas sitting at home. If you want to know what it was like, like Gen Z, if you're watching this and you want to know what it was like for millennials to have these things, watch a 60 year old come out of a 40 year marriage today and go on the apps for the first time and they're like, this is unbelievable. Look, like, this is crazy. And there's like, it's all new, it's all fresh, it's all novel. That's what it was for millennials. And millennials remember a time when they had to just go and meet in person, where they had to go to a bar and try and chat someone up and do that whole thing. And I think that I've read on certain forums where Gen Z is saying, like, you know, talking about the heyday of before the apps, when you met people in real life and if you were in, if you were there in that heyday, you know that it wasn't like it was not that easy. No, you had like, you had to go out, see someone across the room in a social environment and walk over there and talk to them.

It was easy for women. It was hard for men because men would be the ones to do that and women wouldn't.

But it wasn't easy for women. It was hard for women because women, I would argue, actually it was in some ways harder for women because, you know, Bumble came along, for example, and gave women away to make a move. It's true, right? Women before were conditioned to believe they shouldn't be making the move.

So women are still conditioned to believe they shouldn't make the move.

Right. But let's, I mean, we, we've made some progress on that, on that kind of continuum. But if you look at what women were doing, then it was like be at this very passive state of waiting for someone to come over to you and talk to you. It was kind of horrible for men and women. Women had to just wait and be chosen, or at least they thought. Men felt like they had to constantly be going over and approaching strangers, which was tricky at best. Most men have done it at some point, especially from that generation, and know the, the, the, the awkward situation of getting, you know, completely rejected and having to like, yeah, just stroll back to the part of the room that you came from because it didn't work out. It was hard. So I think, I mean, one thing I want to say to Gen Z out there is that it's, I think sometimes we look back on what the heyday must have been like and it wasn't, you know, it was hard.

But, you know, like, there's a lot. And I think that, Stephen, you, you've pulled some really interesting data around this. There's a lot of data that's suggestive that Gen Z are kind of giving up in a way that actually I don't think the millennials were giving up because I do think it was hard. You're right. But I think that the culture, even when the apps first started out, right, the culture apps were kind of different because people were still used to a world where they wanted to invest in each other, where they still kind of understood the value of a connection. Whereas I do think that has been eroded over time. And people really struggle on the apps today because of the lack of intentionality that exists on there. And, and I think that what that's led, what that's led to is some really interesting kind of almost rejection of dating from J. From Gen Z. Right.

Yeah. So there was a survey by, I don't know what it is, but there was a dating app called Fleur that found that 70 of Gen Z has find dating apps to be lame and only 6% of them want them to stay the way they are. Four in ten claimed they were tired of the endless swiping. And a Hinge 2024 report said that many Gen Z datas cite fear of rejection and being cringe amongst their top concerns. So that, and there is this kind of hedging. So there's kind of a lot of think pieces about how. And again, the Gen Z audience can speak to this, whether this is true. But Gen Z have been more likely to find themselves in situationships. Some are embracing a more what they call relationship anarchy, where they're saying, you know what? I don't want to have this prioritizing, trying to find Disney fairy tale love. I want to just nurture all my connections I have. And maybe I have a great soul connection with my roommate. Maybe I have it with a friend, maybe I have it with someone else I know. And it's like a kind of deprioritizing of romance. Other articles say they're embracing. Again, there's all these weird terms. One is exploration ships, which is like, let's not put any labels on it right away. Let's just see what happens. So it's not like, you know, what would you call it? It's not like pure avoidance where you don't talk about it. It's not like love bombing. It's kind of this in between where you go, let's just explore the connection but not have any pressure to put labels on it.

I mean, just go. And players have been selling that for years, like the dream that'.

But I think there's supposed to be more of a.

There's a word for it now, and it's okay.

What I get from a lot of this is there's a lot of hedging. There's a lot of, like, I don't. I don't want to be rejected. I don't want to be cringe, I don't want to be too vulnerable. And there's a kind of allergy to vulnerability. And there's a kind of feeling of, you know, I don't want to make romance this big thing because there's so much that might not work or disappointment in this.

It's interesting because in a recent episode we did, we talked about how there are a lot of people, millennials and older, who are kind of checking out of dating altogether because they're just tired of the nonsense that they face when they try to date. And that got a lot of comments that episode. And there were a lot of women especially, who talked about the peace that they feel in opting out of dating altogether and just not having to deal with it. This is an interesting kind of different twist that you're talking about with Gen Z, where it's, I'm not opting out of dating necessarily. I'm just opting out of having any expectations within dating.

You know. You know what I think, though? I wonder how much of this is age specific? Because when I don't know about you guys, when I was in my 20s, I was far more concerned about making sure that I didn't come across as too intense, not cool, not cringe, not too keen that I was about pre. Then I was preoccupied with the idea of not finding love. But I think as you get older, you know, millennials, boomers, you. You go out in dating, whether you're going back out and dating or you're just looking for love, and you kind of go, well, I've got a bit of a time constraint here. Like, I do have to try and actually really look for somebody, and I don't have all. All the time in the world. I'm not 25, I'm not 26, I'm not 27, even 28, 29 are like, kind of times where you don't need to bring that same intentionality to dating. And I wonder how much of it is. Is actually just a cyclical thing. Because the. The other thing that I think is quite interesting is I think so many people in their 20s, and I was one of those people, almost rejected the apps because they felt shame at the idea of being on the apps. Like, I'm not. I don't want to be someone who's, like, looking for love on the apps, because that's embarrassing. And then as you get older, you're like, I don't care about, like, being someone who's looking for love on the apps. It's just another means of meeting someone. And that's a goal for me, and that's a priority. And you kind of. You drop that bravado a little bit. But I do think there's a lot of people who are still. And people in their 20s who are still very much like, in that space of. The priority is that I don't get rejected. I don't feel embarrassed. I don't come across in this way. And I'm just, like, heavily producing the way that I'm coming across to the opposite sex.

Yeah.

I think there's so much. When you're younger, younger, younger, you are. You seem to be a bit more hung up on process, like, romanticizing how it should go. Like, I want us to reach for the same cup of coffee, and then we look at each other and smile. And I want it to feel like, I don't know, a 90s sitcom, like Friends or something. I want it. There's all this, like, nostalgia, romance, how it wants to feel instead of like, yeah, but how's it gonna feel when you're with them. And there is a kind of, like, straightforwardness as you get older where it's like, I don't really care. The how. The how is not actually important. It's actually finding the person who I can build a life with. I do think in a way that is a bit of a. That feels like an age thing, doesn't it?

Yeah, definitely.

I also. I think the idea that, like, younger people are exploring exploration ships is there's something to me, like, a bit abstracted from human nature in that. Because we didn't evolve out of being territorial beings in the space of the last 15 years. We didn't evolve to the point where now we don't get jealous. And anyone who's ever liked someone at some point, probably within the first five minutes, starts thinking, I really hope they don't date anyone else. Like, I just. I hope they just date me, you know, that I can't imagine that went away because that's. There's human nature.

Yeah.

To that. And the moment you start dating someone you like, I don't care what you say about, like, we're just seeing where it goes, and we're just. There's always some kind of imbalance there that happens where one person is very much open. One person is going, let's see where it goes, because they want to keep their options open. And the other person is saying, let's see where it goes, because they don't want to lose the other person. And they feel like that's the right thing to say, to not lose the other person. I'm not saying there aren't some people who don't mind taking it slow because they're confident and they're just trying to figure out whether they like this person or not. But at the point where, you know, you like someone, that's the point at which, when you hear they're dating someone else, you're probably gonna get hurt.

But you. You. It depends what you're prioritizing, Right? Because if you're prioritizing being cool, not getting rejected, coming across as the one who's in control, and that's. That's the. That's your North Star. And that's the most important thing to you, then I see a world where you can absolutely brainwash yourself into thinking I am all for this exploration chip thing, because actually, like, I'm really relaxed and I'm. I'm also looking and I'm also. You know, it's kind of you. You like, almost, like, appropriate. The other person's excuse.

Well, it. But that requires you to stay somewhat disconnected. Right? You have to actively focus on not connecting to that person in this situation.

Because that's the moment that's really interesting. I think just what you just said is really, really interesting because I think that is what happens so often in dating, especially when you're dating in your 20s, is you are disconnected because you're not necessarily connected to the value and the need and the urgency of meeting somebody. And so you are more connected to your ego and how you come across and how does this person make me look and you know, all of the things and what's my kind of exterior that I'm projecting outwards to the world? I think you are more connected to that than all the other things. And I do think that's something that you, if you don't find what you're looking for within the time frame that you're comfortable in, you then start to drop you.

You start to lose some of those specifics on what you think you must have.

And then you start to actually connect because you have to, because it becomes a priority. I think that there's a lot to that.

There's also this trend I've seen on Tick Tock where a lot of people are showing off their dates now and, and kind of almost like the image is, look at, look at how wind and dined I'm being. Look at how well this person's giving me like princess.

Oh, I thought you meant their dates as in the person you mean.

They're showing off.

Like date.

There is the day and there's a kind of whole like glamour to showing off. I saw one and it was like a woman was saying, you know, don't, don't believe the bad press about finance bros. This was my first date with this guy in London and it shows them going to like, it's like a two Michelin star Mayfair restaurant. She talks about how we just got here. He, he said she'll have the champagne. Without even asking me, she'll have the champagne. She's like, oh my God. And it was showing all this stuff and I was like, he ordered the souffle for us. But it was just like, this is an insane first date. And this is.

Whoever said when was the press about finance bros ever? That they don't splash out?

Oh, I think the press is like, they're not good dudes. But I'm like, this doesn't show anything. This just shows this guy is doing an insane level.

But that exactly tracks about the finance guys.

Well, it's just a pure, like, let me throw this cash around and impress you. And it's like, it doesn't mean anything if a finance bro goes to some fancy place.

It's the equivalent of like seeing a finance bro in a VIP table in a club and five bottles of champagne with sparklers in them come over and. And someone taking a video of that and going, don't believe the press about the finance bros. They're really generous with champagne. Like, you're a VIP table, you're on a date where someone's splashing out to impress you. That's. That's hard. I see that stuff and I'm like, are these people even serious? Are they even. Is this just someone trying to get likes? Do they really believe this?

But also like, who is taking pictures of their date on their first date? I would find that very weird if we were on a first date and you were just like taking pictures of the date. Isn't that weird?

Yeah, I think that's weird. No, that's what the finance bro wanted. If you spend that much money on a date, you're the person who wants to be seen spending that much money on a date. That's how you're getting validated. So if she gets out her phone and starts filming it and then puts it on TikTok, that's all your ambitions have come true. You've been validated in all of the ways that you hoped to be by spending that much money.

It's another way that the millennials have ruined dating is that we've. Our reality TV shows have made people make reality TV shows of their dates to show off on, on social media.

Jersey Shore Love Island.

Love Island.

Yeah.

That's you guys.

And me.

That's you guys.

Yeah. So I do think there's this kind of. There, there can be this performative aspect to it. It can be a like, look at all the people who are trying to woo me sort of thing. Look how like, great standards I have. But it's like, what does that all mean? Like, what does that all cash out as if you're just going on these like extravagant first dates. It's kind of like, yeah, it's fun, it's a fun thing to do, but I don't know. So I feel there's this weird. I actually feel there's this weird schism. And again, I want Gen Z people to comment, to say if this is true, but there's a kind of this much more open explorationship, no labels, being for myself, you know, just Want to kind of prioritize my mental health kind of trend. And then there's some people so rebelling against all of the modern dating stuff that they're trying to go a lot more traditional, like slow dating. I don't want to date around. I don't want any casual sex. I want to be a lot more conservative in my dating life. And I see that as also a thing. But both of them, I see as a kind of. There's some kind of rejection of whatever they think the millennial thing represents. It's some kind of like, I don't want that. I don't know what it is, but I don't want that. Whereas I think a lot of millennials actually now are kind of settling down into a bit more of a stable. I know a lot of the millennials I know have kind of started to go, oh, I'd just like someone to be with now. And, like, a bit more intentional.

The reality is, whatever generation you're in, the criticisms of dating apps are entirely legitimate. It, the way that they are set up, the incentives that are in place are all wrong. You know, dating apps are about getting as many swipes as possible. They're about getting as many signups as possible. The people on them are incentivized to keep swiping. The whole process is made highly addictive. It is made highly dopamine fueled. So it's no wonder that our attention spans for dating are just not there. Our ability to actually spend time with someone, get connected to someone, is not there because the whole time you're with someone, your phone is buzzing with other matches or other possibilities. The whole system right now is not set up for two people who actually want a relationship to find each other, especially two intentional people. You know, I said in the video we did on Sunday, it's like, you know, a bunch of people who want real relationships are put in a mixer with a whole bunch of people who just want to hook up, and then we shake the whole thing up. And we're happy at the end of that process that by sheer randomness, a few relationships occur. And they do. But what also occurs is an enormous amount of pain and mismatched intentions and. And toxicity and bad behavior. And, you know, the reason is, I had a lot of people comment on our Sunday video with real excitement that we're coming out with what we're coming out with, because it feels for a lot of people, like, this is absolutely beyond necessary. It's been necessary for a long time.

What are we coming out with?

We have for the last nine months. And for anyone who watched our video on Sunday or listened to our podcast that came out on Monday, you know this. We have been working in the background on something called Sync, which is our audacious attempt to create something that people actually deserve who are out there dating. So it is not a dating app. So if you're sick of dating apps, this is not that. It is a matchmaking app, and more specifically, it's the world's most intelligent matchmaker in your pocket. And it can be that because it is powered by AI, so it asks you questions. This is a voice first app. And Sync is going to talk to you and get to know you better than you know yourself. It's going to get to know your preferences for a person better than you even know your preferences. It's going to get to know who you're compatible with better than you even consciously know who you're compatible with. Because there is a big difference between simply what we want and what we actually need. And it's going to be getting to know the other person just as well as it knows you. So what this allows for is deep compatibility. And that's what we all need in dating right now. And this is an app that will screen for people who are serious about relationships, for people who are being intentional. And we're massively excited about the potential for this.

It's so nice to be able to finally talk about it. We've been working on this for so many months and finally we're actually talking about it with the world. And the really, really cool thing, guys, is that we actually have a. We're releasing it for the first time, but because it's very, very new and we're still kind of in its infancy stages, we're only releasing it to a small group of people in New York City.

Yeah. So we are doing it in that test city. And the people that are in that test city are going to be the first people to really be part of this. You know, they're going to be part of the very earliest stage of it. And we're going to be testing it together and experimenting with it together. And it's, you know, there'll be, there'll be things to fix with it along the way. And. But it's, you know, the idea is we, we get it right in that city and then we roll out to more cities. We have a wait list for anyone who's in that city. You can find the wait list in the description for the episode, whether you're on YouTube or on a podcasting platform.

And it's totally free to sign up.

Yeah, we're, we're. Right now, Sync is free, so if you're in that test group, you're grandfathered in to using this for free right now. And also, you know, if you're not in that city, you can still join the wait list from anywhere in the world, because the idea is to roll this out everywhere. It's just that you won't be in the test city unless you're there. So this is immensely exciting to be doing something like this. We've never done anything like this before. I intentionally. I must have been offered the position of being on the board of dating apps or co creating dating apps, co founding dating apps at once every three months for the last 10 years. Like it had. We have had so many offers to do that, and we never got involved with any of them because it never felt right. It didn't feel congruent for me to get involved with something that I just didn't fully believe in. And it's fun to actually have created something from the ground up that has the potential to be better and to give people what they really deserve. So stay tuned for what's coming with Sync.

Well, we had an interesting comment on YouTube, didn't we? I think, David, you read it out to us.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that this kind of, like, addresses both sides of this feeling of kind of giving up in a really vulnerable, cool way. So on our last episode, or not our last episode, but why women are giving up ON MEN In 2025, one of our top comments was as a single man. People who are in relationships often tell me how much they envy my lifestyle, being that I have no wife, kids, and no responsibilities. Being single does have its perks, but at the same time, it can be very lonely in the long run. Freedom doesn't always feel like peace. Sometimes it feels like emptiness, and you crave that connection with someone. This really is not how I wish to live for the rest of my life. And it would be nice to have somebody to come home to and enjoy my freedom with. I truly think that being in a relationship is a much happier feeling than being single.

It's really. It's really honest and it's really vulnerable, that comment, because there's. I don't know if you've seen. There's this whole wave of content now online from people who are basically glorifying, like, their free single life. It's like, it'll be like me on my third vacation of the month, while my friends with kids are, you know, haven't left the house in the last four weeks. And then the comments are just like, you know, wall to wall with people going, same here. Never had kids. And my single friends can't believe how much freedom I have and how great my life is. They're regretting it now. And it's like. Or my friends who have kids and so on, it's. It's. There's so much of that. And it's so fascinating because there's all these, like, little echo chambers that I realized because sometimes when I get those things, I'm expecting to go to the comments and see, like, heavy, like, really heated debate between people. Whereas, like, people who are really happy and fulfilled in relationships or with families going, what are you talking about? Like, it's the best. And then other people who are single going, no, being single is the best. But instead, it's just like 90% of the single people who are celebrating this and demonizing the life of having kids and a family. And you realize there are all these. There are all these little pockets in the algorithm where it becomes a representation of our desire to kind of glorify whatever path we've either chosen or been forced down, depending on the nature of your life. And I get it because, like, I've joked before on the podcast where wherever I am in life, I'm always looking for, like, who are my role models that make this path feel exciting to me? And my role models change depending on where my life is. And I'm always looking for what I would talk about on the retreat as emotional buttons. Like, what's my emotional button for being, you know, if I've just been heartbroken, I would be like, what's my emotional button right now? What's my person or my role model right now for the moment I'm in, to try to, like, you know, almost take this and turn it into something really positive or, you know, amplify the good in it. And when I was single, I always had Star Lord from Guardians of the Galaxy as my, like, reference point for why I'm so happy.

I remember Matt telling me that after he watched Guardians of the Galaxy, he was like, I'm Star Lord.

There's a moment where he wakes up and he's is in the first Guardians where he, you know, like, wakes up on his ship and there's just, like, a woman in a room somewhere, and he's hooked up and he's having, like, he's got no responsibility. He just walks outside the ship and just starts dancing his way to, like, whatever next adventure he's having. And I would be like, yeah, I'm Star Lord. Like, he's. Look at him. He's got no responsibility. He's so happy.

Come and get your love.

That song was an emotional button for me for that very reason, because it, like, connected me. I was like, this is so exciting to be, like, Star Lord in life. And so I really get it when people do this. But I. There's a difference, I think, between having those things that really connect us in a positive way to the beauty of our situation and. And a kind of asserting constantly that every other path is awful in some way or that my path is the only way, in a kind of denial of the other things that I could be experiencing in life. And it creates these kind of false dichotomies where it's either one or the other. And I think, like, that's what I hear a little bit when I hear someone saying, like, because look, we got some flack the other week when we did that episode about people who were saying, I'm out of dating. I'm more peaceful without it, and so on. Because, you know, we were talking about how relationships are a really beautiful thing. And there's something potentially a little bit sad about just being like, I'm not interested anymore in this whole section of life. And I don't think that was. That was never us talking about it actually being sad. Like, I think there's something incredibly empowering about choosing this because it makes me happier and it makes me more peaceful. But for a lot of people, whether it's saying, I just. I'm just fine with situationships, that's fine, I'm going to be happy doing this forever. Or whether it's saying, I'm going to peace out of dating altogether because I don't want to do it anymore, or. Or whether it's the other thing where it's being single is the worst thing on earth. And I just. Unless I'm in a relationship, I'm not happy. They're all these. They're all full prey to this very black and white thinking about life. Hello, everyone. Audrey and I are in full minimalism mode in our house right now, getting ready for a baby to arrive. We are getting rid of things that don't spark joy. We are bringing in things that. That do spark joy. Marie Kondo. And one of those things we brought into our home that does spark joy are the blankets from Cozy Earth. Audrey has practically been living in their bubble cuddle blanket. Say that three times and we have even got the Cozy Earth baby blanket to prepare for little Chadwick. This just in. We are not going with Chadwick. Both are soft, elegant and fit perfectly with with the minimalist vibe we are creating in our home. What I love most about Cozy Earth is that their products aren't just beautiful, they are functional, high quality and designed to last. If you are looking for something to simplify your space and invest in things that spark joy for you, Cozy Earth is a great way to go. Head to cozyearth.com and use the code love life for 20% off. Now back to the episode. We got an email on that particular episode which was titled it was this is episode 313. Nearly 50 of women will be single by 2035. From Christina who said, I've been a fan for a long time. Thank you for everything I've learned from the podcast in relation to episode 313. I do agree with everything you said about why more people are single, social media turning us into dopamine seeking machines, how we're more alienated alienated, and so on. That said, I felt the conversation was missing a strong feminist perspective. I was surprised to hear Audrey was surprised at women who said that it sounds peaceful being single by 2035. To me, that reaction makes perfect sense. The truth is that many women stay single because we don't want to mother immature men. Completely fair. The emotional workload in straight relationships is enormous. Having to manage feelings, keep connection alive, and take care of someone who often hasn't been taught to do that for himself. Even with, quote, good men who are intentional or make an effort, it's common for that effort to fade once they're comfortable. And in my experience, a lot of men mainly look for a partner to help them regulate emotionally. That's why studies show men get happier when they marry, but women get happier when they stay single. Straight relationships, the way they're usually structured, heavily advantaged men and men rarely seek out relationship advice to begin with. They're taught it isn't their job, which is already obvious from your listener base. I actually want to push back on that a little bit because there's an enormous amount of content out there for men looking for love advice. I mean, look no further than how many millions of views Jordan Peterson has on any time he talks about dating.

And even marriage and even our listener fan base. A lot of them are men. Yes, we get a lot of emails from men. We get a lot of comments from men.

So the the advice might be structured differently and you could make an argument for the goals being different sometimes between men and women, but there's certainly an enormous amount of men looking for advice online for themselves. When the podcast first expanded beyond Matthew, I was worried it might feel like you were shoving a great relationship in our faces, but now I think it's even better. I love the group dynamic, Audrey's insights and voice, and I absolutely adore Steve Sleeves.

Hell, yeah.

Also, it's really refreshing to hear men discuss a topic like relationships and doing it so intelligently like you guys do. Thank you. And that's from Christina. I think Christina makes some really, really important points. I. I think the irony of that episode is that we actually have spent over the years a disproportionate amount of time fighting that feminist, while fighting on behalf of that feminist perspective and saying that people shouldn't feel the need to be in a relationship and that there is nothing wrong with being single or staying single. This has never been a podcast that is constantly just evangelizing about relationships. So I. It's almost funny to me that we got some of these comments from people pushing back on them, feeling that we didn't do that enough in that episode.

I think also just the overall point that I think is so important to make here in this episode, in the other episode that was just referenced is, you know, I actually do understand this idea of it being peaceful for all of the reasons that Christina has mentioned. But I think the important point is, whatever you decide to do, make sure it's coming from the right place. If you decided you don't want to date because frankly, it's too complicated for you and you feel genuinely fulfilled in all these other areas, and it's just something that you have decided you can absolutely live without, then, then fine. That's fine. But if you are lying to yourself and pretending that this isn't something you want because you don't think that you can get it in the form that you want it, I do think that that's a shame, because I think then you're not putting yourself out there and allowing yourself to actually, you know, meet the kind of relationship that you want. So I think it's just like, whether it be Gen Z, millennials, men, women, whoever it is, it's just whatever you actually truly want, deep down in your heart, you should go after that. You shouldn't worry about anything else, and that should be your guiding star, because otherwise you will end up in a place, whether it's 10 years from now, 20 years from now, where you actually Go. I was telling myself I didn't want this, but now I don't have it. And I. And I do want it, or vice versa, you know, And I think that's, that's, that's what the point we were trying to get across all along. It's not that you have to be in a relationship. It's that you have to be very honest with yourself about what you want and why you are, you know, doing or not doing what you're doing.

And I, I applaud any woman who is saying, I'm. I'm not. Like, this just isn't offering me anything that is compelling. And I have my friends, I have my life, I have purpose in my career. I love my life. I don't need this. Like, it's not worth it to me. If you find contentment in that, I applaud that.

And not everybody wants to be in a relationship, and that's fine.

No, the thing that I think sneaks up on us is that even if. And by the way, there's a whole conversation to be had about that in the context of wanting children. Because there are many people who say, I've found relative peace by not dating right now, but they know at some point that, you know, that desire to want children is going to visit them much more strongly than it does today. And at that point, it leaves them in a much more difficult place. Or they've decided, I'm happy to do this on my own, which many women do these days. And that's perfectly that. To me, that's to be applauded, too. But I think some people bury their heads in the sand that that feeling is going to come to them later. And it does. But that aside, there are many people who find that the desire to be connected to somebody romantically doesn't just. It won't go away so easily. We can say to ourselves, I'm happy, I'm content, I'm peaceful. I don't need this. But for a lot of people, that part of them doesn't just go away. The desire to connect doesn't just go away. And when it does come back, I suppose the question is, what does the calculation look like then? Does it still look like more peace to not engage with that area of life at all? Or does it start to look like a brave move to say, I'm still going to venture out and with a sense of openness? Because this actually is something that I feel an urge towards at this point in my life, albeit hopefully with higher standards and a better radar for people than maybe I would have gone out with 10 years ago or five years ago. Well, it's that time again that everyone's been waiting for. It's Steve Sleeves. Don't be bereaved.

You know that we can leave without another episode of Steve Sleeves.

Welcome back to Steve Sleeves, everyone. We today are gonna play a word game. I'm calling it Love Lexicon.

Okay.

Or Flirtal Wordle.

Flirtal Word.

Sorry, it's not very much like Wordle.

It has two names.

That's how we roll.

You can't. It has to be one or the other. You can't start by saying it's. It's this name or this name.

Well, we're gonna play. Well, we're gonna play Love Lexicon.

Okay.

No, I like Flirt. Or Wordle.

It's not like Wordle. So I'm gonna give you some Gen Z dating terms. Some of them are real. Some of them I have made up.

I like this one already.

So you're gonna have to tell me if they're real or not.

Okay.

Banksying, named after the street artist Banksy, is when one partner's already decided to leave, but instead of saying it, they start doing a quiet retreat.

Oh, I think that's real.

Instead of leaving, they just do a quiet retreat from the relationship. Yeah, I thought it was going to be like, you come and just write on their wall unannounced without permission. Why? How does that relate to Banksy?

Because, you know, he always makes, like, a. A sneaky exit, and no one knows who he is.

And that's not every graffiti artist ever.

When you don't realize it, the art's gone. He takes it away. So go on. Is it true or not?

Yeah, go on then.

That is real.

Yeah. Okay, Go us.

Toastering. Keeping someone warm, but never turning things up high enough to cook into a real relationship.

That's not real. That's you. That's got you all over it. Toastering.

That is fake. Kitten fishing, like catfishing. But you just tell a little bit of an exaggeration about yourself. You just stretch the truth a little bit. You're not. You're not doing a fake profile picture, but you're lying a bit in the profile.

That's fake news.

Yeah, that's fake.

Fake news.

That is real.

Oh, no. Kitten fishing.

Ihopping. He takes you out to a basic breakfast place near his home that he clearly brings all his dates after a sleepover.

Real.

Wait, just any old breakfast place?

Very basic greasy spoon breakfast place. And it's quite clear that he brings all his morning afters there.

Go. And then real.

I made that up.

Oh, I knew it. Why did I say real? Obviously. Ihopping.

Okay.

It sounds good, though. That should be one.

I feel like that might catch on. I feel like ihop, but I feel like it's like that would be quite a personal thing for me to share, like my local greasy spoon place. I feel like that's actually a sign that I'm really into you.

Ihopping is actually quite romantic.

Yeah. Okay, Monkey. Barring moving from person to person, only letting go of the old one when you've moved on to the next.

That's real. And we used to use it when we were in our 20s.

Yeah, that one's been around a while.

Sneaky link. A casual hookup that you keep secret and don't tell anyone.

Sneaky link.

That sounds real.

It's a casual hookup. You don't tell anyone you're hooking up with this person.

Sneaky link. Okay. Yeah. Real.

You say fake.

I think fake.

That is real.

Oh, it's.

It's quite good. That one.

Airplaning. When someone makes plans for all kinds of trips in their head and talks about them, but never actually books one with you.

That's so annoying.

Airplaning.

They're always talking about potential trips in the future, and we're going to go there. I'm going to take you here.

I think fake.

I think you made that up. Because I feel like there's. There's definitely a better term for that.

No offense.

No offense.

I made that up. Soft launch. You show your partner in your Instagram stories without a full reveal of them. You don't say you're in a relationship, but you soft launch it on your Instagram stories.

I reckon that's real.

I reckon that's real.

That is real. Chairing. Keeping someone around for emotional furniture. They're comfy, but not very exciting.

Depressing.

Yes. It's horrible.

Chairing. So you just keep them around because they. They're comfortable.

Yeah.

Then wouldn't it be like sofa?

I reckon that's real. Because I reckon you would have come up with a different name for that one.

That one is fake. There is cushioning.

Yeah. I was gonna say chairs aren't.

When you're already in a relationship, but keep someone around just in case.

Oh.

Oh.

Sneaky.

No. Sneaky link would be if you hang. If you're actually hooking up with them.

Shreking. Lowering your standards so you'll finally be treated right by someone.

That one's real.

That one's real. Yeah.

It's also very mean.

It's really mean.

Pancaking. He invites you to his place for a romantic night, but has a thin, spongy mattress that makes your back hurt in the morning.

That's not real. That is not real. And then why?

And then takes you to IHOP in the morning for pancakes.

Because there's no. There's not. Pancaking suggests it's something you do to someone.

Yeah, you pancaked it.

No one would go because he wind.

And dined you and then he took you to a bad bit pancake.

People wouldn't go home to their friends and say, he's pancaking me. That is not real.

I'm with you.

That one is not real. All right, well, thanks for playing Steve's sleeves, everyone.

That's a really good one.

Please email us anyone out there who wants to let us know what this podcast meant to you. Podcast matthewhussey.com Subject mine. Pancaking.

No, the word or one. What was it?

No, it's got to be pancaking. Surely.

Pancaking.

You're not gonna beat that Subject line. Pancaking. Have you ever been pancaked? Let us know. Podcast Matthew Hussey.com we'll see you next time.