Stop These Insecure Dating Behaviors! - w/ Sabrina Zohar

It's such a different experience that if we actually allow people to show up for us, now we need to be on the receiving end of that to start to receive them showing up for us.

I love that.

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Love Life Podcast with me, Matthew Hussey. And I am joined today by Audrey Hussey to have a conversation with Sabrina Zohar, host of the Do the Work Podcast. I know a lot of people out there are big fans of Sabrina and her show. We had her on today for what was a really authentic and vulnerable conversation about the realities of finding love. And she gets very vulnerable about her own journey and the work that she had to do in that process. Audrey and I talk about it as well. It's kind of a two for one podcast, this, because it's kind of like me and Audrey having a conversation as we would if we were doing a podcast together. but having a special guest in the mix too. If you are out there and looking for love right now, I think that you'll find this a highly relatable and sober conversation about the realities that we experience when we're trying to find that person to share our lives with. And it also has a lot of very useful practical advice too. And if you haven't already, by the way, make sure you sign up to my new newsletter, the relationships. This is a brand new newsletter where every Friday I am sending out writings on my philosophies, strategies, ideas, and recommendations that can help you in all three of the big relationships in your life. The relationships you have with other people, the relationship you have with your life, and the relationship you have with yourself. These are the three relationships that determine quality of life. And this newsletter is designed to help you with all three. It's free. It's weekly. Go check it out at thethreerelationships.com. Okay, let's get into the episode. Sabrina Zohar from the Do the Work podcast. What's up, friend?

I'm, hello friends. It's so good to see you guys and I'm so excited to sit with you both.

Yeah, me too. We've been excited to do this and I love that I get to do it with Audrey too. And, you know, Audrey's been such an amazing kind of, I suppose, read of our audience and so many questions that people want to ask. And so I'm going to be feeding in questions. Audrey's going to be feeding in questions. And we're just excited to hear what you've learned today because I know, how long has a podcast been going for?

I started at January 2023. So about a year and some change. And boy, oh boy, was I that talk about thrown into the lion's den? Like this was all new to me. But as you know, it's like, as you go along with it, learning about yourself and then how you can help other people is honestly why I do it. Because it's like, if we can't share the knowledge that we're learning along the way, then I find like, what's the point of half the things that we say if we can't back that up with, hey, look at like you, look at this amazing partner I have sitting next to me. All of the hard work that I've done led me to this. And that's the beauty, I think, of when I used to watch you and watch your journey, and now being able to share my journey, it's been so much fun to be able to actually.

Help people along the way while having fun doing it. Where were you-- when you were dating, where were you dating the majority of the time?

First, so I was in New York for 12 years. And so I did the New York scene, which was in and of itself a train wreck. And then, like, I was going down. I'm from Florida. So I would go down to Miami all the time, tried Miami. Nope. And then moved to LA, tried the LA dating scene for two years, realized how much how much worse that was than a New York dating scene. And then met my partner in San Diego very unexpectedly, very serendipitously, but truly at that moment when you like, stop looking and start just saying, you know, let's see what the universe has for me, like, there it was.

So tell us that gives, that's like a really interesting cross section. What, tell us about dating in kind of those different locations. Like what, because I've, I've been in the US for over 10 years of my life now, and Audrey joined me in the last three, roughly two. And, you know, so I, and I've spent a decent amount of time traveling the US, touring and doing shows in all different cities, and I have a decent bearing, and I've heard different kind of complaints all over the country about what people are struggling with. And I think in many ways they reflect the kind of complaints people would have to have in different parts of the world based on whether they live in a city or whether they live in the country or some combination of the two. What were you ever not, did it ever feel like you weren't dating in a city or was it all, did it always feel like kind of city dating wherever you were?

So the, the caveat that I have is like, I was dating really inappropriately, and I'll explain what I mean by that. I was dating with these expectations that were unrealistic, just that like, oh, if I meet somebody at a bar in Brooklyn, that we are going to have this about story that all of a sudden is gonna be the most romantic novel you've ever read. And it was like, no, that was a bartender at a place in Brooklyn. I didn't actually even know his last name. And I hooked up with him that night and was hoping that it was gonna turn into something and it didn't. And so for me, I was experiencing very much that traditional city dating because of the way that I was dating. It was very, it was coming from a place of insecurity. It was coming from a place of, can you complete me? Can you please choose me? Somebody make it worth my time being in this crazy city as opposed to, Dating in New York has its struggles, has its issues, like, as you might imagine, the plethora of people and things like that. But I think had I been dating with a different mindset, I would have enjoyed it, I think, a little bit more because you do actually meet people of depth. You do actually meet people with quality and that have conversations. It might just not be within the first week you're getting everything that you want from this person. And then all of a sudden, here I am, Miss anxious, being like, well, you didn't text me every day and you didn't do this. I'm done. Then when I moved to LA and had started therapy and was really doing all the work on myself and started to understand how I was showing up, then I had to deal with that other flip side of, oh, wait, wow, now I feel like I don't belong here. Now I feel like I come with all of this depth and these conversations that I want to have with people. And I find a lot of the people in LA were very, can you just tell me how many followers you have? And it was very much like, oh, you just want to see what I could do for you as opposed to really getting to know me authentically. So I think personally, my experiences We're very cliche city dating because of the way that I approached them, because of my anxiety coming into it, I saw it as you're in it, you're instead of my life, not in addition to. And I think if you have that mindset, no matter where you're gonna date, it's gonna feel like an uphill battle because you're always waiting for other people to make your life worth living, as opposed to coming at it with, Hey, I'm doing this. I live in the most amazing city on the planet. Like I get to experience all of these things and you should be so lucky to join me and then be able to co-create with me. I do believe I would have had different experiences had I come from that mindset. But I mean, hindsight's 2020.

Well, you got there as well. And I think it's the journey, isn't it? It's just finding out about yourself and working out. I mean, we talk a lot about patterns. And I'm really curious, and obviously you speak to so many women and so many people who are looking for love. What were your patterns that were holding you back? And what would you say as well? What are the patterns that you hear about most often that hold other people back as well?

Totally. So it's so funny, I just created a course and week one, I was like, we need to talk about patterns because it's so important to even be self-aware to say, wow, I date the same type of people. Like mine, it was clockwork. They were all my father. They were super narcissistic, incredibly avoidant, really hot and cold. I was constantly seeking other people's approval to get love. And then it was the cliche when I'd meet a nice guy that tried to give it to me or was really lovely. I saw that as, ew, no, you're boring and I don't want this. And really at the end of the day, what it was, was was like, I was just unhappy within myself. I was really unhappy with who I was at my core. And I was scared to take up space as the person that I was because for so many years of my childhood and growing up, I was shamed for who I was. I was told, no, you have too many emotions and you're too much. You are this, you're that. And it was this constant repetition of, this person's gonna leave you if you show who you are, so just stop. So then when I was dating, I was literally, my mom would even say, she was like, it's creeps me out how you can find, they look the same, they the same, they just have a different name. And it was like, even the other night I was in New York with my friend and I said, oh, I think I went on a date with that guy. And she turns around, she's like, aesthetically, that makes sense. And she was like, that sounds, that looks like what you would have gone for. And so it was, it was that creepy to the point where, like, they looked like my dad from when he was in his 20s. Like, I know that sounds weird, but like, that's how deep that wound went, that I was literally trying to find people that looked like him so that I could reaffirm to myself, like, no, you're not too much. This person actually likes you, unlike dad who didn't. And so I continued to repeat those patterns over and over again of going for the people that text a lot that would show me they would love bomb me and they'd come on really strong. And so I would just boundaries. What were those? Non-negotiables, never heard of her. Like I had no, I didn't know how to say no. I never was able to say, Hey, you know what? I don't want to go out at nine o'clock at night. I'm exhausted and I have a long day tomorrow. It would be, you said 9:30. Actually, now you said 10:30. Great. No worries. I'll be there. And so I would completely self-abandon and continue to do that. And I think that's what I see more often than not is anybody, most of the people that I work with that come to me, there's a lack of true choice. And there's a big piece missing that like when you're a kid, I totally understand how helpless you can feel that like you don't have a choice. You know, like if your parents do something to you, when you're six, you're right. I can't just up and leave and say, no, thank you. But then when I'm an adult having adult relationships, I have every right to be able to say, Hey, I don't appreciate the way you spoke to me. I'm going to leave. That's inappropriate, and I'm not going to accept that. And I think that's probably the number one thing, Audrey, that people ask is like, what do I do? And my answer always to them is like, well, have you stopped to ask what it is that you want to do? Have you stopped to think like, what works for me or how is this making me feel as opposed to how can I make sure that person's not going to leave me? And I know it because I did it for so long. And then you realize the longer you try to get someone to not leave you, the further away from connecting with that person you actually are.

Oh, that's so profound. That is like, yeah, that's so true. And I can relate to that as well. So I'm sure so many people listening will be able to relate to it. I'm also curious, you know, practically, because what you said to me suggests that there was a lot of shame around your needs and almost, yeah, that idea of not wanting to take up space and not wanting someone to see you actually, because it's easier when you're kind of doubling down on pleasing somebody, you never have to be seen, right? Practically, how did you kind of start to reclaim that space and to, you know, stop feeling so much shame around your needs?

Truthfully, it wasn't until a couple of things. Once when I went to therapy and I started to learn that it was a hard moment for me to have to look and say, wait a minute, So what I experienced as a kid wasn't normal. Like that took a lot to have somebody stop and say, Sabrina, what you went through, like your father hitting you, your father leaving you, your father speaking to you the way that he did, that's not normal. And that was the first step was for me, I was like being able to hold space to say, whoa, okay, so I can acknowledge what I went through wasn't normal. Now, not everybody's going to have that experience, of course, and some people can look and say, I had a perfect childhood. And it's like, When we do that, when we try to numb down what we went through, you're now just discrediting yourself. You're gaslighting yourself to say, Nope, see, you're making it up. See, it wasn't as bad as you thought it was. You're creating this. And so then what that happens is then you just discredit yourself even more and you feel further from yourself. It took a lot for me to have to stop and say, you know what? What I went through was really tough. And I failed. Like I would ask myself, where did you learn this? Almost every five seconds. How old do I feel? And where did I learn this behavior from became very norm for me to say in a sentence because I'd stop and say, how old do I feel? Wow. When my partner said that to me, I felt like I went back to being a six year old because that's how my father used to speak to me. And that makes me feel really shitty. And like, where am I feeling this? Wow. I'm starting to get dysregulated. Okay, it's okay. I give myself permission to be upset because that is very upsetting. It started within me. It started within me allowing myself to say, hey, that doesn't feel good. and not creating a narrative, not creating a, it doesn't feel good because, well, because Sabrina, you're overreacting and this per, no, it didn't feel good. And so by just validating how I felt within myself allowed me to then be able to stand in that power and say, hey, I'm gonna validate how I felt. Doesn't matter if you don't validate it, that's okay. I did for myself. And then I was able to say, okay, so what are my needs? Where did I feel? Where did I learn that asking for consistency is too much from my father? Okay, well, when I started to work through those wounds and saying, Wow, that was his limitations and understanding. He did that to protect himself. And it had nothing to do with who I was as a child. It started to unravel. But until I actually went to the root core of where I learned that behavior, there was no way I was ever going to validate my experience or allow myself to have needs for other people besides my father, because I was so ingrained that you're a bad kid and you're doing something bad and you're not a good kid, that it took me and still is taking me years to undo that narrative because I'm a human, and there are times where I'll fuck up and do something and go right back to attacking myself, and I'll have to stop and be like, Whoa, you're doing it again. If there was a child here, if you spoke to that kid that way, I highly doubt you're going to get anywhere.

When you would practice kind of having, well, that self-compassion, for example, that validation of, well, two things came up for me. One is, I, you, when I first met you, I was like, though I felt like, and I may be just projecting, but I felt like there was, like, an East Coast feel to you. Like, there was a bit of an, like, East Coast toughness and, and, and, like, a kind of ability to be, like, sharp tongued if you needed to be. And that's interesting to me, in a sense, because It's clearly, you know, internally, there's such a sensitivity to you and there's such a softness and openness. But, you know, over time, it's so common when we learn that we're too much or when we learn that our emotions are too much to start then curbing those things and choosing very specific rooms for those to come out. But with the world, especially in a city as tough as New York, It's like, I can't be those things. I need to go out and embody the energy of this city, which is, I don't give a fuck, fuck you. Whatever, let's go on a date. Why are you being like that? Blah, blah, blah. There's a kind of energy to that that it must have... Was it strange for you when you first started to have that compassion with yourself or even in therapy where they started to saying, no, no, no, that thing that happened to you is not okay. And it, you know, that that's something you can feel sorry for yourself for. It's something you can give yourself compassion for. Did that, was it hard for you to give yourself that kind of energy as a, and lose the kind of tough love, like, you know, almost like, did it feel indulgent? And did you go to a place of, oh, the people have it worse. And what am I complaining about? And, you know, this isn't that bad. was, how did you get over that hump of looking at it, like, well, minimizing it and saying, this is nothing, and also crying about this doesn't go with my, like, you know, this armor that I've put on that's been working for me for a long time. It's like the, the balance of the.

Ego of, like, really having to push through. Because I used to say to my mom all the time, people think I'm this one version of myself, and then they meet me, and I'm like, I'm, I'm actually quite soft on the inside. Like, I'm not this Bulldog. But I think that was my protective mechanism. That was my cloak of, no, no, no, you have to be a hard ass. And like, also, that's my dad. My dad is very flippant. He's very tough. He's very hard. He's very, like, straight to the point. He's no bullshit, no nonsense. Lived in New York. Like, I kind of learned that, and that's how my family is. But it's very much a protective mechanism. It was really actually my brother. My brother shifted a lot for me. And he said one thing. He was like, you know what, Sab, why don't you try holding two conflicting thoughts? And that was the, I was like, I'm sorry, I don't know what that means. And it was being able to hold the thought of I can acknowledge. So let's say, like, a dating experience, for instance, that somebody ended it. I can hold space that this hurt my feelings and that that sucks and it feels shitty. Right? Like all of those things. But then the other aspect of that conflicting thought can also be, I don't need to create a narrative to make them the bad guy. I don't need to create a narrative to make them the villain so that I can feel better about myself in the story. But I can hold two conflicting truths that maybe I wasn't right for this guy, but that also can hurt my feelings. And by once I really started to hold space for two conflicting thoughts of my childhood could have been really shitty, but that doesn't mean I did anything to deserve that treatment. That was tough because we're so used to black or white, right? Nope, it's this or it's this. And when it comes to healing, that's where we learn all those shades of gray. And learning those shades of gray allowed me to even, honestly, from when I started creating content to where I'm at now, when I started, I was bull in a china shop. You're not going to tell me how I'm going to speak to you. And then as I went along, I started to learn to have compassion for other people. Because if I can learn to have compassion for other people, I can learn to have compassion for myself. And if I can do that for myself, then I will actually make more strides and grow as a person. Because I look at it as an is it an excuse or is it an explanation? Am I excusing your behavior because I just do not want to hold you accountable? Or am I explaining why you are doing something while still also holding you accountable? And so for me, it was really finding a balance between I can still validate and say this hurts me while also being being able to hold space that maybe somebody else wasn't feeling it with me. And knowing like, huh, I don't like everybody. Why is everyone going to like me? And that took me a while because I thought, no, I have to be hard. I have to be this. I have to be this New Yorker until I realized like, I can still hold on to being blunt, being direct, and being straightforward. And if other people want to say that's aggressive, it's like, that's okay. If you're not used to directness, it might come off as aggression. But I know my truth and I know what I'm trying convey. And so it was easier for me to break through when I was able to hold those two conflicting thoughts and not create all of these narratives, but really just see it for what it is and then be able to move on with my life. It's very like stoicism 101 that has been rebranded into healing, but I'm here for it.

How do you integrate, like on a practical level, when you look at your kind of meeting your partner now, and bringing all of yourself forward. How have you, on a practical level, integrated those two things, the being tough and being direct? And it's kind of like that could be a really interesting and attractive quality, especially when it's paired with that softness, that ability to delve into sincerity and real connectedness. And we talk about them as unique pairings. When you have two things that you don't normally find in the same person, in the same person, it's a real kind of surprise and delight aspect of meeting someone. Because you go, oh, I thought they were just very direct, but now I see this whole other side of them and oh, my God, that kind of makes them irresistible.

But it's also what makes people very hard to get over unique pairings because you almost go, I'll never find that again because it's so unique to find both of those things in that one person.

Exactly. And when you take each either of them in their extreme, they can both quickly mutate into something unattractive. You know, the person who says, you know, I speak my mind. I'm sorry, I speak my mind. That's what I do. And you're like, that's, but that's kind of all they are is someone who who blurts out things that people don't want to hear and you go, God, this person is difficult to be around. How do you or how have you in the past integrated that, and maybe it's more reflective of your inner child, that part of you that wants to come forward and be sensitive and connect and with that part of you can be valuable at times to bring out. Do you have any specific examples of how you could still be direct but not allow that to go too far and then bring in the softness? And I know it's maybe a tough question, but I'm curious if anything comes up.

I have one example, it kind of hits me as an example, and I'll share with you. So I went through something, like for me, growing up with the, I had a fun dichotomy of I'm too much, but I'm not enough. That's a fun pairing of always feeling like you need to do more for to find to look at you, but then feeling like you're too much when you do that. So finding that balance is tough. And I understand, like, I used to, I think I was the pendulum swung. And so like, for instance, so I've struggled friendships, you know, like, I have my core group, but like girls and I like it just, there's a lot of jealousy and a lot of the cattiness. And I just, I don't, I have a lot more guy friends than I do girls. And I had a situation with a friend. And it devastated me. It was one of those things, like, I saw a text that she wrote about me, and this was like a month ago or two months ago. And it just broke me. And I was really sad. And I remember I was, I I was upstairs and was talking to Ryan and I was explaining to him, I was sharing with him how hurt I was. And for me, my core wound is I don't feel like anyone listens to me because my father was very dismissive. It was very, I would have to scream and talk louder because I needed someone to hear me. And that was the dynamic in our household. So that's where my sister learned to shut down and I learned to scream. It's, it's always fun when you start to learn these things. And so I was, I was upstairs and he was on the floor playing with the dog. And I was explaining to him how hurt I was. And he just goes, you know what, babe, it sounds like you're really struggling with this. Why don't you stop talking about it so that you don't hurt yourself anymore. And it just hit me and I was like, I just turned to him and I said, absolutely not. And he looked at me and he was, huh? And I said, I'm in the middle of sharing with you how hurt I am, how much this bothers me. And I said, and instead of, I said, if you genuinely want to be my partner and help me, then the response would be to listen and to allow me to vent so that I can then move on from it. Instead, you're uncomfortable by this conversation because emotions make you feel uncomfortable. And so you're trying to regulate me so that you don't have to deal with this. And that is not something I will continue to allow in this household. And he just stopped me and he was like, Fuck, you just called me out. He was like, that's exactly what I was trying to do. I was uncomfortable because I don't want to deal with emotions. You're struggling. I didn't know how to show up for you. And he was like, Thank you for calling me on that because you're right. He was like, How can I support you through this? And I said, Honestly, just let me talk for another minute. I was like, Just let me get it out because that's how I process. And I said, and then when we're done, that's it. You don't have to hear about this anymore. And he was like, okay, fair. And so he allowed me to do that. I vented, I cried, I had my moment. And then we went downstairs, we watched a movie, and like we had dinner. And so we find a balance of being able to say, Hey, while I understand, like I can show compassion, say, while I understand you're trying to help me, this is my space to tell you this doesn't help me. Because truthfully, honestly, my first response when he said that was to cower like a little girl and do the like, oh, oh, okay. Well, I guess you don't want to actually hear what I'm talking about. And like, okay, well, because Sabrina, you're too, and then cower away and go to the room and, you know, kind of lament and go, so quiet. That would have been the old way I handled it. And instead, it's like I can show up directly and say, Hey, I don't appreciate the way that you said that. I understand why you said it, holding that compassion and space while also standing up for myself and being direct and to the point. Because I didn't create a, you,'re such an asshole, you're trying to do that. No, no, no. It wasn't because he's a bad person. I understood his discomfort, but I also understand where I stand. And I think it's just being able to, one, know your partner, but two, be able to stand in the power of it's okay, I have a right to say I don't appreciate this in my household, while also not like tearing somebody down because they said it.

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Go on.

How there's a, there's a point where someone, like, where he may go, I, you know, I want to validate your experience. I want to be here for it. But it's also happened, like, four times in the last 48 hours.

And.

You know, now, like, you're getting a side of him that's, like, kind of burnt out or doesn't or, you know, it's like, if it's taxing for him to go into that mode, then there's a certain energy bar for him on that mode that gets depleted when it happens. What do you guys make of, like, the balance between the two things of, you know, kind of picking your moment or knowing that you have some, like, some people have a really big energy bar for certain things. and another person in the relationship might have half the size energy bar for that or a quarter and vice versa in a different area. How do you calibrate? Because it's kind of tricky, right? Because this gets into the argument of am I asking too much or is this need I have valid and does it need to be supported by this person? And people struggle with that in relationships. all the time is I can't tell, and especially when we don't trust ourselves, we go, I don't know if this is me or them. How do you calibrate that? It's a kind of a question for both of you so that you know when maybe you've gone too far versus they're not showing up enough.

I have an answer, but I'd love to hear from you, Sabrina, first.

I'll say for me personally, I think it's one understanding, like so my partner is a little bit more avoidant, like he's just the type he'll shut down, he's just like, he doesn't, he's not going to sit there and be like, Hey, can you tell me all about how you're feeling today? And I can tell you, it's like, that's just not the dynamic we have. So I think there is a difference between what I like to do is I like to first look at like, okay, so if a situation happens, I first start to ask myself, like, what's the narrative that's playing for me? And where am I feeling this in my body? Because I need to understand, okay, if I'm having, the pinch has to match the ouch. If I'm having this crazy reaction to something very simple that my partner said, then there's a disconnect. And I'll then explore and be like, Whoa, hey, I think I was was triggered. Like, this is on me. I think I'm feeling this a little bit bigger than what the actual situation is. And also, then I'll even ask him, like, hey, do you have the bandwidth right now? Like, I ask consent all the time. Like, hey, do you have the bandwidth right now for me to talk to you about this? Or I'm really struggling with this. I'd love to share that with you. And that'll be his space to be like, you know what, babe? I don't. I'm at 10. Like, he'll even tell me sometimes, like, I am so burned out. I'm at exhaustion. I I don't have the space for you. And then I'll say, no worries. You know what? I'm gonna make an appointment with my therapist because you're right. I can't only rely on you to All of this, or I'm going to call my mom instead, you know what? Like, I'll tell him, I don't need to bother you with this. Let me talk to somebody else. Because I do understand the balance of, and I respect that as well. When he'll come to me and say, Hey, check in, I'm exhausted. I can't hold that space for you. It's like, don't worry about it. I'll talk to you later. If it's something major, I will come to you. But a lot of the times, you know, when it's something, like you said, if we have that, just that limited capacity, what I really look at here and like the beauty of the relationship personally that I'm in is that we have a very safe space. And so It's really important for both partners, like if I'm talking and I see very clearly that my partner is not listening, he's shutting down, he's getting frustrated, he's giving me one word answers, I'm not going to keep probing. Eventually I'm going to stop and say, Hey babe, what's happening? Are you okay? Do you want me to give you some space? And then maybe he'll be like, Hey, you know what? Thanks for asking. I'm sorry I'm dealing with this. And I'll be like, It's okay. Next time just let me know and I'll give you the space. So I think there's a balance between knowing that like, yes, while I do have every right to share how I want to feel, it also has to be not at the expense of my partner. You know, I'm not more more important than he, and he's not more important than me, but it really is a nice balance of asking for consent, but also knowing that I can have other people I could speak to about things without it trauma dumping on my partner or always being about him. But I think if we're even just talking about how to identify, what do you share, what do you not, I like to just check in with myself of like, what's happening internally? Where am I feeling this? What's the narrative that's being created? Because then I'll start to be like, whoa, okay, Sabrina, you just created this entire narrative based on one thing he said. You have no facts to back that up. So then it's just an system of, okay, you're projecting this onto your partner and like just really being very clear with myself. But like Matthew, like you said, when you don't trust yourself, that's where we have to start of being able to understand. So this is what sadness feels like. Okay, I trust myself that this is what sadness feels like. And I validate and allow myself to feel sad. Then that way you start to trust yourself of like, Hey, no, I'm feeling like this. Yeah, I'm pretty in tune with my body. But Audrey, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I love, it's actually a really nice segue. I mean, I love that. And I, yeah, the thing that it kind of ties into what I was gonna say is, you know, you, I think the first thing is finding a partner who also is compatible with you when it comes to those things, because there are people who are gonna have such a small bandwidth and people who are gonna have a bigger bandwidth when it comes to emotions. And if you know that you're someone who's dealing with complex trauma or, you know, like, has attachment, you know, issues or whatever. Not issues, but you know what I mean? Like, whatever it might be, you, you know that you might need a little extra love, a little extra conversation, a little extra, like, you know, TLC when it comes to, you know, you getting triggered or having a moment. So I think picking a partner that, you know, you can love someone so much, but they can be really, really terrible at meeting those core needs and making you feel safe, and therefore the relationship will never work. So I think that would be the first thing is, like, just making sure the partner and the person that you're choosing is actually able to kind of hold enough space for you to feel those things. And the thing that I think is, I've. I've learned this over time. I definitely did not used to do this, even in the beginning of our relationship, is I would get upset about something, whether it was something to do with you or something to do with someone. and I would almost like bull in a china shop, like you say Sabrina, literally like push my way into the conversation and be like, I feel this and this is valid because blah blah blah. And that ended up sort of actually creating a little bit of a rumination cycle where you're not actually hashing anything out, you're just venting and sometimes you're turning it into an argument, you're frustrating your partner because they're trying to help and men always try and fix in conversations. I've noticed this. It's very like, well, what do you do this? Why do you do that? And you're like, no, I just want to vent about this. So the thing that I've definitely got better at, it's not perfect, but I'm much, much better at is almost stating in the beginning what I want from the conversation. So just like, I don't want you to say anything to this. I just want you to know that I feel this, you know, like that kind of, like, I'm, you haven't done anything wrong, but I just, there's something I need to tell you because it's upset me and I just need to get it out, you know, that sort of thing.

It's funny 'cause it's like, it's actually create, where we've had tension points is where she, like, let's say there's a problem we both have, like, you know, there's something we're both going through collectively and we're both suffering from whatever this external situation it where it's. Where it's funny is that we've clashed before where she wants to talk. Like, she wants to talk about how this thing is difficult, and that's not really how I process things. Like, it doesn't really help me to do that. Like, I'm. I'm like, I. For me, my brain, I'm not saying this is what she does. I know that it's a way of processing for her. For me, it's like my brain goes, this complaining about it actually makes me feel worse. That's how I'm like me talking about how this is hard makes me focus more on how it's hard.

Whereas I feel like I need to get the negative energy out, otherwise it festers inside me and like makes me.

Ill. And what's funny is that it works well in a way. It's like when Sabrina, the point you talked about, about going to him with something that's affecting you, we're in a way better at that because when something's affecting her and it's not affecting me, it's easier for me to, at this stage, this wasn't always true, but at this stage, understand intellectually, like, oh, right now she needs to speak about this. I need to just give her the space to do that. And she will feel better regardless of the fact, regardless of me giving zero practical advice. She will actually feel better at the end of talking about this. I'm able to process that at this stage. But what's hard is when we're both struggling with an issue and she wants me to talk about how I'm struggling with the issue. And I'm like, but that doesn't help me. That's not part of my process. I'm just, for me, it's going to make me feel worse to spend 10 minutes talking about this and complaining about it instead of me just being able to like be like, okay, it's all good. What's next? Like, let's, it's all right. I don't, I almost need to minimize how hard it is so that I can get through it. Whereas she wants me to go, isn't it really hard? And we just talk about how hard it is for 10 minutes. And at the end of that, she's like, I feel better.

And I'm like, I feel worse.

You guys remind me so much of me and Ryan. It's like, it's just watching it. I'm like, I chuckle because it's adorable too. Cause like we're very similar in that sense. We're like, I, I need to process, I need to talk. And sometimes it'll even be Ryan's like, are you just, he's like, who are you talking to? I'm like, anyone that's willing to listen. Honestly, it's that point. I'm like, sometimes I'll just walk around the house. I'm like, I lived alone for so long. I'm used to that. But I think in something that's really important that like we can also bring up is like, I would imagine that when you and Audrey first met and same with me and Ryan, you didn't just know that about each other. Right? Like, you get to know that. Like, I remember Ryan made a suicidal move when he said, Calm down to me one night. And I was like, you have a.

Death wish if you ever tell a.

Woman to calm down in the middle of her being upset. And in that moment, he didn't know better. Now he does. Now he thinks twice before he'll ever say, Calm down. Because what we've learned is like, at first, Ryan would just shut down. And it took me a minute to finally actually have to say, Hey, what I've noticed after like eight months of dating, I was like, what I've noticed is you consistently shut down. And I was like, you You don't have friends or family you can talk to because his best friend at the time had gone through this accident and it was like this whole thing and he was in the hospital. Thank God he's okay now. But like at the time, his one person and that was a real conversation where Ryan had to say, I think I need to find someone to speak to. And then we helped him find a therapist. And now, like when we'll talk, he'll say, like we had a disagreement the other day where he wasn't honest with me about something that happened. And I know you guys understand you work together. Same. So we were doing something. He tried to not tell me something about work that he knew was going to upset me, but he didn't want to do it. He wanted to fix it before it became an issue. And then I found out about the issue. to. And before I even had to say anything, he said, I know that you've been asking me to tell you more about how I feel. And after talking to my therapist, I'd like to share that with you. And I was like, okay, I'm all of my anger went away because I was like, okay, I'm here to listen. And he expressed himself. And I said, wow. And the first thing I said was, I know that was really difficult for you. Thank you for expressing yourself. And that is really what I've been asking you for. And he was just sitting there, and he's like, I hated this. I really didn't like this. This made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't want to do this. And he's like, I hate talking about feelings. But then he stopped and he was like, does this make you feel more supported? And I said, it does. It makes me understand you a little bit more because I know how you're feeling. And he was like, cool. Likewise. And then we move on with our day. So I think, like, for anybody that's trying to extrapolate how you do this, how you do it is by conversing with your partner and sharing, hey, I did not like the way you said that. That really didn't work for me. Not because of that, but because it triggered me. And it's very dismissive, like my father used to be. So I'd love if you could say it. like this. Okay, cool. Hey, thanks for telling me. It's a nice roadmap of what it.

Is that you need. Yeah, totally. I love all of that. And I also find it really sweet, the idea that he was just like, okay, I'm now going to express my feelings as you have asked me to do. That's so sweet. I was going to say as well, I think, because I think it's so important. We're talking ultimately here about, like, different types of conflicts, aren't we? And something that I think doesn't get talked about that I actually, I was speaking about in therapy the other day, my therapist was something with me. And it's, you know, there's conflict because something happens between you two, like, you know, the work, a mission of truth situation with you and Ryan. There is conflict like what we were just talking about, where we're both struggling with something, conflict where, you know, you're upset because a friend has done something or a family member or whatever. And then there's also conflict that I think arises from feeling like your needs aren't being met in a moment. So, for instance, It was like, my therapist was saying this. She said she was making dinner with her partner. And she said, for some reason, I just felt like my needs weren't being met. He wasn't talking to me enough. I just wasn't feeling connected and happy. He was a bit grumpy, or I was, I don't know. But she said, she just felt in that moment this frustration build up. And I think what happens, the reason I bring this up is because I think what happens with a lot of people, whether they're dating early stages or in long-term relationships, relationships is we think that we should be constantly elated with our partners. And there's no moments where we go, you know, this particular hour we were doing this, I'm a bit bored or I'm a little bit like my knees aren't being met or I'm like a bit fed up with like the way that this is happening. I wish it was this way, but I don't quite know how to put my finger on it. I'm just feeling like a lack of contentment and satisfaction. And In those moments, what she said to me, which I thought is so beautiful, and it's one of the things I've really been working on a lot in therapy myself, but it's to give yourself what you want from your partner and almost turn to yourself and to that inner child or just those parts of yourself that have been neglected and haven't been heard in a long time and just be like, okay, this external force is not meeting your needs. So what are your needs? What do you need right now? and almost sort of like checking in with yourself and then being like, okay, I'm gonna hang out with myself and I'm gonna just make dinner with myself. You know, I'm gonna go upstairs and do laundry with myself and almost seeing yourself as these two separate beings that you're hanging out with. It's like quite a heady concept, but when she said that, I thought, God, that's so useful from the point of view of avoiding arguments that come from nothing. They just come from a feeling of I'm just frustrated because my needs aren't being met and I don't really even know what I want. I'm just not, you know what I mean? Which I think is everyone experiences it. I don't know a single person that doesn't experience that. Yeah. So I just, I thought that was a useful, like an addition to add to that as well.

I have a question. Because this is all like really great stuff for when you're in a safe relationship. And I think, you know, one of the things that people find really hard is in dating. How much of any of this am I entitled to?

Yeah.

With someone that I am getting to know who is bringing up feelings for me. I am having a lot of feelings in week three of dating someone or by the third date. I mean, maybe even straight after the first date, but, you know, even just a few dates in and it can feel like we're in this weird gray zone of, can I say these things to this person? Am I entitled to have their ear on any of this? Is it gonna scare them away? Is it too much too soon? Am I asking too much? Or is this a valid thing for me to bring up and expect? How did you, Sabrina, calibrate both what you were learning in therapy and in your own growth process about giving yourself more compassion and also being more willing to speak your feelings, with the very real kind of concern that early on in dating, we're not necessarily entitled to this person we don't know showing up for us in ways that we might more typically expect from an actual relationship. relationship. How did you calibrate that? So it's so funny.

I, like, smiled as you were talking about that, because I remember when he, when he and I first started dating, like, I walked into this with, I, I, I share this all the time. I'm like, we hooked up on the first date. We met online, and I was like, I'm never going to see this guy again. I left it being like, please, I've dated in New York long enough to be like, oh, you hook up with someone when you meet them online. Like, good luck. It's been many years of that not working. And so when I left, and I kind of was just like, you know what? Hey, if this works out cool, if it doesn't, it doesn't. And so, like, I released a a lot of pressure around this having to work out because I was building a life outside that I really loved. And again, this person was in addition to not instead of. But when it came to issues that were arising, one big difference I noticed was when I used to date, I used to have everybody on roster of, oh, my God, here's the text I just got. We need to analyze it. Right. And it was like everyone, it would be two, three months of having everybody involved in my relationship, every friend, every family member, every, you know, how many times you're leaving 30 notes to people because you just need everybody's intake. The biggest difference with Ryan was I didn't tell anybody about her situations because as they arose, I was able to just handle it with him. And so it would even be something as simple as like, because I really looked at this as, what do I have to lose, right? I'm going to show up authentically. I'm going to be myself. So if something comes up, I'm going to say it, right? So, you know, he asked me out. I remember like our third date was he wanted to make dinner. And I did that. And then the fourth date, he wanted to make dinner. And then the fifth date, he wanted to make dinner. And of course, the part of me, there's that girly part You know, I don't like to try to do the gender stuff, but for me it was the, oh, okay, well, Sabrina, don't say anything because, look, he's inviting you over, but then the old me would have texted 30 friends being like, but does he just want to hook up? I don't understand. Why isn't he taking me out to dinner? Why is he only inviting me to his house? And instead what I did was I just straight up called him one day and I just, after he texted me, I called him and said, Hey, I think having my voice to this makes a lot more. I feel like you're just trying to hook up with me and I feel like this is really transactional. You just continue to invite me to your home and that doesn't make me feel very comfortable. I'd much rather if you are something that if you really wanna have some kind of depth to this, I'd rather spend time with you outside of the house. And he was just like, wow, I could totally see how that could come off that way. You're right. I haven't been putting the effort in. Okay, let me take you out. Let me take you out to this place this weekend. How does that sound? And so it started off with a lot of micro conversations, lots of little, like getting comfortable to say, hey, I actually don't wanna go there. I'd much rather do this. And then seeing how that person responds. It might seem so minute. Oh, what's the big deal? Okay, so she said she doesn't wanna go to an arcade. She'd rather go out to dinner. But what happens is that allowed me to say, hey, this is a safe space. I can express myself to this person. He doesn't get angry. He doesn't shut down. He doesn't get volatile. He just says, no problem. And vice versa, I created that space with him. So as we were going along month three, four, five, six, you know, as you start to pile on, I started to realize how little I was actually investing in my community to understand this person because I was just getting to know him directly.

I love that. I think that's so powerful what you just said.

I agree.

The idea idea of, you know, it's crazy when our friends and family know a thousand percent more about all of our grievances with a person than the person themselves. And we all do it. We all do it. We do it in friendships, we do it with family, we do it with everybody. Like how many of our friends know more of our complaints about a key family member than the key family member does. Like it's such a human instinct, but it's a really bad instinct because it's a guarantee that the relationship itself won't get better and that your resentments will get more and more entrenched.

So.

And I also want to just pick up. And I love that you picked up the phone because that ability to take it out of the realm of him getting a text and then going and reading it to his friends and being like, what? like, is this okay? Like, she's kind of been making a big deal about this. And his friend's going, yeah, she feels like she's making a really big deal out of it. And, like, you know, he would then be able to construe this whole thing from that that wasn't real either. So you kind of take all of that out of the equation by being brave enough to call. And it's also you voting. It's like you casting a vote on the robustness of the. relationship, if we can call it that, at that stage or the situation, the dynamic, you're kind of casting a vote, saying, I trust that this thing we have can handle this. And when you cast that vote, it can actually be the thing that gives the other person confidence, too, because whether they can read this consciously or not, on an unconscious level, they're able say they will feel like, oh, this person must feel safe in what this is to be able to say this to me instead of having it in the back of their head and going and talking about it with someone else. And I have to find out from a text on her phone that I shouldn't have seen. You know, that's not a vote in the trust of the relationship or in how much I trust in the relationship.

If it scares someone off, this is actually so important. If it really scares someone off, after you've slept with them, been intimate, they've literally been up close and personal with you on five dates, and if they get scared because you pick up the phone and say, Hey, I'd like you to take me out, then their intentions are probably not really worth it anyway. So I think that alone is really, really powerful because it's like you say, you test the robustness of it, but you also trust that if it drives them away, they were never going to give you what you wanted to begin.

With in the great. I was gonna say, sorry. In the great words of Matthew Hussey, test and then invest. Right. It's like, it's about putting a little seeing. Does this person reciprocate? Okay, I'll continue. And then, like, trust me, that has been in my head since I first heard you say that many moons ago of it's so true. We have to give a little, but also allow somebody. Like, somebody commented on my something the other day saying, I asked one, I asked a couple of the questions that you say on first date. Holy shit, this person shocked me with his emotionally intelligent response. And now we have a second date. And it's like, let's give people the opportunity to actually show up for you. We're so used to people not, right? We're so used to being disappointed and being let down and creating this whole thing. But when we actually stop and say, let me see if this person has the bandwidth, that can actually even be scarier because when Ryan handled that really well, I had to stop going, oh, shit, this is not the crappy relationships I've always had. I now need to start consistently showing up like this and continuing this and starting to allow it. Because guess what? You just went against my core beliefs that there's something wrong with me. I'm too much. I'm not good enough. On the contrary, you validated me. You understood what I was trying to say. You made me feel seen, heard and understood. And now I feel safer to express myself. That could be just as terrifying, if not more scary, than, oh, well, they freaked out on me, right? I'm so scared of being. Being a bad girl, being reprimanded and being slapped on the wrist like my father used to. It's such a different experience that if we actually allow people to show up for us, now we need to be on the receiving end of that to start to receive them showing up for us.

I love that. I love that. I think it's so important. I, yeah, amazing.

Sabrina, where can people find you?

So you guys, this is the fun when you have different usernames. Do the work podcast. Do the work on Instagram. and YouTube and Sabrina.Zohar on TikTok and Instagram. So, or sabrinazohar.com is just a good place to find me. And we have more conversations about all things dating and anxiety.

That's amazing. Well, those are things we relate to. I, I really appreciate your time, Sabrina. It was, this has been such a lovely conversation. I'm so glad we brought Audrey in as well, because I feel like we've covered some amazing ground and I really like email us podcast@matthewhussie.com, let us know what you thought of this episode. I think people are gonna have really got a lot of value out of this.

For sure.

We covered some really interesting ground and a lot of nuance as well, which I really like. I appreciate your vulnerability about your own process and the things you've learned. And I think we all have a lot in common.

Yeah, it's so relatable. That's how I feel. I feel I relate to so many things you said, and I'm sure so many people listening will feel the same way. And it's nice to feel less alone because otherwise we can feel like there's something wrong with us for those things. But actually we're all doing it in some way, shape or form. So thank you.

And we did a podcast. I was on Sabrina's podcast, Do the Work as well a few weeks ago. So by all means, go and check that out if you want to see the other side of the conversation that we had, which was really, really fun. So, Sabrina, thank you. I hope we can all hang out soon.

Thank you, guys. I'm so grateful. And, Audrey, it was such a pleasure to meet you. And, Matthew, congratulations on the book. I can't wait to see how it grows and how many more people you're helping.

Thank you. All right, everybody, thank you so much for listening to the Love Life Podcast. We will be back with you in the next episode. Let us know what you thought of this one and we will see you soon. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for listening, everybody, or watching if you're on YouTube. Like I said, if you haven't already, head over to the3relationships.com. that's the number three. And sign up for free to my weekly newsletter. A lot of people have really, really enjoyed the writing in the Love Life book, my new book, and they want to know where they can read more of my writings. Well, this is me writing new and original content every single week for free for you inside the newsletter. You can sign up in all of 10 seconds at thethreerelationships.com It's a really great weekly email that people look forward to. which is something that I think is becoming more and more rare with emails these days. This is an email you'll actually get excited about every week. So, go to the3relationships.com and sign up now, and I will speak to you in the next episode of Love Life. Be well, my friends, and love life.