The “Great Guy” Who’s Actually a F*%k Boy

We're going to be dealing with a listener question, a question from the lovely Mei-Lan who asks us about the phenomenon of spiritual fuckboys. We are going to be talking about people who aren't quite what they appear. Before I met my current boyfriend, I got a bit stuck in a situationship with a guy who was doing men's group therapy, could have really deep conversations about feelings, seemed self-aware and aware of how the past had affected him, could share emotions and cry with me, and yet was utterly unable to commit. And in fact, after I cut it off with him, I found out he had been seeing other women despite telling me we were dating exclusively. I think Sometimes we fall into the trap of seeing a guy that seems emotionally aware and we see that as honesty, availability and overall attractive qualities. I would go as far as to say that in my experience, the guy I was seeing was probably using all of that quote wokeness to keep me around in limbo in a very manipulative but covert way. I believe the term for those guys is spiritual fuck boys. They basically use their knowledge and experience of emotional connection to deepen the bond with women, but still have a relationship or other trauma related excuse to be on the brink of commitment but never fully in, particularly nowadays when men are opening up to spirituality, men's work, trauma healing, and this information and lingo is readily available. Thank you for all your help.

Wow.

I don't know why I just find it so funny. Can't you just picture him?

I'm cycling through various caricatures. I'm thinking like, traveling guy who lives around a beach and wears a lot of shell necklaces and beads and braids and stuff. I'm thinking that guy. I'm thinking dude who leads yoga seminars.

Yeah.

And I'm thinking, yeah, therapy guy who looks like. Like a gentle, masculine, you know, in touch, emotional guy. But he's also just like, you can't pin me down. I don't want to Define this. Don't limit me. Oh, he's like, I've got all these traumas, and that's his story.

Stephen, would you say that he normally has the unique pairing of. Masculinity and all of these apparently emotionally vulnerable and available qualities. Would you say masculinity ends up tends to be a key part of the equation?

Yeah, I think in general, yes, I think he can look like he embodies a great unique pairing of being a active guy who's also emotional. And like Audrey says, kind of alpha. Like Audrey says, he's got a lot of the language, which is like, oh, this isn't just like your typical bro in front of video games who's just like, oh, I don't care about that stuff. He's into all that stuff. So he does know the language of therapy. He does know about, he's read some Eckhart Tolle, he's read some, Jack Kornfield. He knows how to quote all these people. And so, yeah, he's kind of also, he's got all the language as well.

Don't bring beautiful, wonderful Eckhart into this.

What a twist that would be if Eckhart's work is just producing fuck boys.

Here's my thing though.

This isn't his intention, I'm sure.

We should sleep together tonight. Think about it. Think about what Eckhart says, the power of now. Not tomorrow, not next week, now. Together we can make a new earth.

Here's my thing though. I'm not saying all those guys are frauds or anything like that. I think there can just be a massive lack of self-awareness in some people. like, I think some of those masculine, I'm a spiritual Bro types kind of might believe their own, and they do kind of think they're really sensitive and in touch, but they're also their masks may be a massive self-obsession or a massive ego or just insensitivity. Like, they're. They're really sensitive to their needs and stuff, but not when it actually comes to someone else's. They're not very sensitive.

That'S interesting.

And a red flag for this is, is the conversation them getting high on the sound of their own voice? Because I think sometimes the grandiose language and the experience and the vision and all of this, we can get caught up in it, right? Like, oh, my God, this person is amazing at communicating. But paying close attention to the fact that are they actually interested in what you're saying back to them? Or is this just more of a kind of an opportunity for a monologue. Yeah, yeah.

I haven't said one word in this conversation. We've been on this day for three hours.

Enough about you, let's talk about me.

Yeah, I think one of the giveaways, I think, is when people spoon-feed you their values. You know, when they talk about, you know, I just think, you know, I just think it's so important to be kind. You know, I just think it's really so important to be kind to people. And, you know, I just. Or they're just, you know, I just really value honesty. You know, I, I think that's one of the most important things to me is, is honesty in other people. And in this place, you just don't see enough honesty.

And if you, if you have to say it, if you have to say, I'm a really genuine person, probably not a really genuine person. If you have to say that you value honesty, you probably have to. You're probably saying it because you think it sounds good rather than because you're living it. day to day as your value.

Think about how important what I'm about to say must be for me to interrupt my own video. Well, here's why it's important. It's going to change your love life and it's free. If you want to know why someone may have faded out, why they may have disappeared, why all of a sudden it felt like the momentum was lost with this person, go to whyhesgone.com, where I talk about the main reasons someone disappears. Go check it out, whyhe'sgone.com and now let's go back to the video.

If I'm looking for signs, the spoon feeding is a really interesting point, Matt. I think if anyone's spoon feeding you too much, that's where your skepticism should start to creep in a little bit.

Yeah, why aren't you just being this? Why are you talking about this?

Show don't tell. You don't need to show, like show me who you are, don't tell me who you are.

So you gotta earn it over time. I wanna make friends and then I want them to be you know, four shots deep before they tell me some really moving experience they had. You got to earn that with that fourth cocktail. You can't just like, I met you four minutes ago. Why do I know this much about what you really think about the world?

And that's really interesting, really interesting, because I think if a man shares a story with you, you feel more connected to them, even if it's the first date or second date, you go, oh my God, they were so vulnerable with me. They shared that trauma. they shared this really deep story about their childhood and what they went through. It's actually probably a little bit of a red flag, so to speak, if somebody is oversharing that way very early on. Because why is he feeling so comfortable to share with you, a perfect stranger, something incredibly personal about his life?

You also have to go, who am I? I'm not special to them. I'm, we're, we're We're on a date. We're on a first date. So if this is what they're doing with me, I have to assume on some level that this is not uncommon for them, that they get this vulnerable with people.

And I think the instinct is to feel special and to feel connected. And as a woman, you know, we can be quite nurturing in the way that we are with, you know, with perfect strangers. And we can just sort of go, oh, I feel really close to this person. I feel like I can. I really helped them, and it was really healing to have this conversation with them instead of actually looking at it for what it is, which is just probably too much information for date one.

Can I. Can I give another red flag?

Yeah, go on.

If you're being. If you're being slightly vulnerable about something or just being. Just being open with someone about something in your life. And I don't mean the kind of vulnerability, the sort of sickly over-the-top vulnerability you're talking about, but just the, if you're just open and that person starts giving you advice, that is like one of my immediate red flags. Is if you, I didn't ask for advice, but based on some information, you're using this information that I just gave you. as an opportunity to coach me or lecture me. Like that is that I find to be really, really a bad sign because it's then you know this is all about you getting off on the sound of your own voice, you getting off on what you know, you trying to play a role where you've got it more together than me. So that represents a lack of vulnerability in you. It's all, so I would say that as almost the kind of counterpoint to someone who weaponizes their vulnerability. It's almost someone who weaponizes your vulnerability.

If they jump on it, if they pounce on it to take on the coaching role, just yeah, that is a good red flag.

Horrible, horrible, horrible is the opposite of connection.

Those guys in general that she's speaking about, I think are just the kinds of guys who will very much speak in a way like they have all the answers, they have all of the understanding of themselves, of the situation, of how people are, of everything. And instead of kind of trying to assume the role of student, they're just constantly trying to be the teacher because they're high on their own voice.

It doesn't matter what someone says to you about who they are or how exciting they appear to be in the beginning or how much they appear to speak the same language as us. You have to actually watch what someone does. They can say they're kind or they can keep repeating to you how kind they are. And then you can actually sort of watch them and go, oh, I don't actually see that in the way that they're treating people in this very room. They can keep talking about how generous they are. and yet you haven't been able to get a word in, in conversation. So their generosity absolutely does not show up in sharing the conversational stage with you. When we see these contradictions, it's actually important that we don't allow their charisma and the flowery language or the way they communicate, which might be very enjoyable, to mask that.

Like this guy can be can seem massively attractive because he's got that masculine something and also that super sensitive, great communicator in touch with his feeling side. And sometimes that can just be genuine, right? That can be a genuine, attractive, unique pairing, but there's just no shortcuts in relationships. So I think you just have to take your time with it and not be fooled.

And there's no, by the way, that that's very true. And there's also no shortcuts when it comes to building character. You don't get to go to a yoga class and read a spiritual book and now have great character. You might talk the language. You might be wearing pants from ALO. You might, you know, be carrying your yoga mat into the coffee shop. You might, you might have all the right trappings or the kind of trim of someone who thinks in enlightened ways and use the language. I really want to honor myself. I really want to honor my truth. I really want to just live in integrity. You can say all of these phrases that become utterly devoid of meaning in the ways that they're used. It doesn't build character. Character takes time. Character... In fact, let me rephrase that because character can only be revealed over time. But Building character is something that is built through struggle. It's built through suffering. It's built through reaching places in our life of massive humility, of having gone through something and been, you know, had the rug pulled out from underneath us, of losing the things that we relied on for our confidence, of life not being the way that we thought it was or not panning out the way we thought it would or, Just going through things that make us take a step back and go, oh, life is tough. And, and whoa, this gives me an insight into how tough it is for other people. And when you realize how tough it is for other people, that doesn't make you go, let me talk about myself all the time. It makes me go, let me, let me go and find out more about other people. Let me go and connect with other people. Because it's one of the, you know, I'm a big believer in therapy, but there's nothing worse than someone who does therapy and comes out and all they ever do is talk about their therapy. Because it's somehow one of the side effects for some people can be that just everything in life becomes about how, you know, that they get addicted to their narrative, their story, and how interesting it is and why they are the way they are. They forget that other people in the world exist. And they can tell a very interesting story about themselves, but it doesn't have any of the humility of I'm one in seven billion, and that other people have stories, and let me connect with theirs.

Yeah, and it's interesting. I've even seen on dating apps women who have specified not interested in a guy if he hasn't done therapy. And I always think that's an interesting one because it's like, I understand the intention of what that person's saying, is very dogmatic, though. And also it, it suggests that because you've done that, you are going, you have got a tick and you've got the language and you've diagnosed yourself. So you're going to be a superior partner. But who's to say? A, who's to say your therapy has necessarily helped you? And B, so, you know, so what? Like, oh, I've gone to therapy, I've been to a spiritual Retreat, I've done yoga. It might be nice if you have an interest in those things, but it doesn't actually tell you anything about the qualities of that person.

Well, what that person is saying when they say, I want someone who's been to therapy, or I'm not interested in someone who hasn't done therapy, is that they really value self-awareness.

And a desire to grow and be a better person.

Right. Yes, I agree with you that the two things don't necessarily go hand in hand. You can be self-aware. but not have a desire to grow. Or you can also be self-aware, have a desire to grow, but ultimately just constantly give in to your worst kind of side.

There are people who have been in therapy for three decades who are not any improved.

Well, the improvement takes work and therapy is one form of work. But you have to actually be willing to do the things that make you a better person and self-awareness alone won't make you do those things.

Therapy needs to meet character because character is the ability to do hard shit even when you don't want to do it, even when it's, you know, very much the resistant road and you're not going to get your favorite outcome as a result of it, but you are living your value by doing it. That is what character, that's how it's built over time, right? And so, the reason therapy alone with a lack of character just is pointless. It's a pointless exercise. What's the show we've been watching on Netflix?

Dharma. Dharma.

Yeah.

What was his name? Jeffrey Dharma.

Yeah.

Jeffrey Dharma. I mean, when you watch him in a jail, when you watch him in a jail cell and he's talking about.

What he's done, he seems fairly self-aware yeah. He even thinks he's a monster.

You feel almost sorry for him, don't you? But he's. Yeah, because he's sort. There's a self-awareness to it, but it's not, you know, I wouldn't want to go back to his house for a.

Beer just because he's self-aware. You still have apparently swipe right on that profile. He'd be like, oh yeah, done loads of therapy. Steve, what I find so, I think you and I are probably in agreement on this, but what I find so cringe about that therapy signaling on the profile is just that that's automatically putting yourself on the pedestal. It's like, Unless you've gone to therapy and you can speak my therapy language. So that's, I think that's the troublesome problem there. It's just the signaling element.

Yeah.

I've got friends who have never done a session of therapy in their lives who I think would probably make better partners than some people I know who do a lot of therapy.

Exactly.

You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, yeah, it's like you can learn all the language. You go, well, these are my bag of issues, though. But it's like, well, yeah, but have you worked on them? Is it working? Like, what are the issues?

There's plenty of people with trainers at the gym that just sit there talking with their trainers and not actually getting a good workout.

I still think, though, if you gave me the option, I would prefer you to have had therapy.

No, no, no. I actually agree with that 100%.

I think the point is it doesn't really tell you something on its own. Like, does someone reading Eckhart Tolle tell you anything? Like, there are people who have read Eckhart Tolle who are 10 times bigger.

I know it tells you nothing.

They have great taste in books.

No, but there are people who have read Eckhart Tolle who are 10 times bigger assholes. There are people who have read the Complete Works of Marcel Proust and they're very literary, but they're complete assholes. It doesn't actually tell you anything other.

Than they have done that. Right, but if someone said to you, I'm not interested in doing therapy ever, wouldn't that be a sort of... That would scare me more than... Yeah, that would scare me more than... Like that, I feel like would give me more of a signal. Whereas, of course, someone going to therapy doesn't mean they're a good person, but if someone says, I'm not interested in that, that would be a little alarming for me.

I think also it shows that someone's willing to invest in making themselves happier and better, which you're obviously going to benefit from. Now, whether it works or not is a different story, but at least, and I'm not saying you should make that your criteria for dating apps, but I do think that I understand the logic of wanting, you know, if you've actually spent money and time and energy trying to work on aspects of yourself that hold you back, I think that's a good thing.

My worry with this is that this is exactly what that guy that she was dating put on his profile. I guarantee he probably put something like only swipe right if you've done therapy. You know, that's a language. It's a one, it's a very, I think the key word that you keep coming back to Matt is humility. And the person that's putting that in their profile, I think they don't have the right amount of humility about the different journeys in life.

That is a great way of putting it, is thinking that this path is the only path. And that's what people who, You know, people who start making yoga their religion, that creates this hubris. People who make therapy their religion, that creates that same arrogance. It's when you stop respecting the fact that people get their different ways. You know, the extreme of it these days is someone who just swears by psychedelics. It's like the only way to get any form of truth and enlightenment. The only way to peek behind the curtain of what's really going on in life and what reality really is, is to have shoved some mushrooms in your mouth. Now, I've got no problem with.

Oh, mouth. No wonder I didn't really have the experience.

Yeah, you were going up the wrong end. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I guess I can't figure this.

Yeah. No, you got. They go. They go down, not up.

All right.

Yeah, we'll get it.

Yeah. Okay. All right. So that's why you're not.

I really did not do well with that on my profile.

I've been expecting so much more truth from you with all the mushrooms you've been doing. And all you've been doing is taking sick days.

His profile just said, mushrooms don't really get all the fuss about it.

You know what's interesting about what you're saying, though, I think is it's usually replacing one addiction with another. So. Right. People who are kind of enlightened and, you know, have found this spiritual awakening that other people don't have access to tend to be people who partied so hard in their 20s and 30s and took all sorts of drugs and did all these things. And then suddenly that didn't work anymore. They were deeply unhappy and they just found their next thing to jump onto. Now, it's not always the case, but I think it happens a lot where it's just people were very addictive kind of binary personalities and they just find their next wave. the next thing.

I think that if I could wrap this up, I'd say find someone who, who find. Well, one of the messages, I think, from this is find someone who has the humility, as you pointed out, Jameson, to be curious about other people's paths in life and, and how they got there. And to me, the person who's genuinely enlightened, genuinely emotionally available. genuinely spiritual, for want of a better word, is good at connecting, is good at understanding your journey and being interested in it. And their spirituality or what their character they've built in their life might be more likely to build than announce itself the moment you meet someone in some spectacular and charismatic fashion, not least of which because the person who's humble and confident doesn't feel the need to dazzle you the moment they meet you. They're actually confident enough to let themselves be to build in their attractiveness. They don't need to dazzle you the moment they meet you with how wonderful and enlightened and clever they are.

I think a shared spiritual framework is great. and if you look for that same religion, same spirituality, that's great. But don't assume knowledge is character. Knowledge of therapy, culture, knowledge of the works of Eckhart Tolle. Yeah, that's knowledge of Christianity. Or going to Oxford, because there are a lot of shits there as well.

Really well said, Stephen.

I agree. Wait, before YouTube sends you down the rabbit hole of watching Raccoon videos or videos of large crocodiles on Florida golf courses. I have something that will help your love life more than these things. And it's at whyhe'sgone.com if you want to know why someone faded out, why they were giving you attention and all of a sudden they stopped, this guide shows you. Go to whyhe'sgone.com and then enjoy your baby bear videos.

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