Why He Took the ‘Failures’ No One Else Wanted

If you had to choose between money and mission, what would you pick?

I think I'd pick the mission because I'd make the money.

So would I. The mission, the money to me is secondary to the, like this work, like I could make way more. I could do what I do in other industries that would, I could have one call closes and like, we just, uh, we're probably going to sign a guy that I first started talking to 5 years ago. 5 years he's been struggling. He's, I think it's time to hire you. I'm like, okay. Told you this 5 years ago in Napa, right? Whatever. But that's, he's a great guy. Like he's got a really good business. He's built a great business. He's just like, I'm trapped. I need to, I'm, I wanna sell it. But to me, it's always about the mission. I don't, I mean, I could build a nutraceutical company and do $20 million a year. It's not something that keeps, that gets me excited. Right. Like I, it's, I'm not excited about that at all.

I like seeing people get better without drugs. Getting better.

You didn't build your clinic to feel like an employee in your own business. I'm Matthew Glogli, and on Out of the System hosted by Dr.

Talks, we challenge the broken rules holding healthcare Entrepreneurs back.

Hear from clinic owners, rebels, and builders who are creating bold, profitable, patient-centered practices and doing it their way. We're together.

Yeah.

Like we're finally get— how many times did we try to schedule this podcast?

At least 2 or 3. We started talking about it in June, last time I saw you in real life.

Mm-hmm.

So glad we could do it.

I know. I'm like really, really excited. I've got, I actually prepped for this, like, believe it or not, cuz I normally don't. So here's a question I want to start out with. You know, the whole theme of this is out of the system, people jumping out of the system, and we'll, wherever this takes us is wherever we take it, right? Like I only have a few questions and I just love to see where this thing goes.

Okay.

So what did you think your life was going to be like when you were 20? Because you're a, you, and we'll talk about your background in just a minute, but what did you think your life was going to be like when you were 20 and you're what, 61 right now?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, that's a great question. I was working in the carpenters union in Cleveland.

I can totally see that.

And I hated it.

You totally, you totally look— I grew up, my brother's a union plumber. My dad was a union lawyer. Like I could totally see you as a carpenter in the union in Cleveland.

Yeah. And I hated it.

I hated it. Oh God, that would just be awful, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

Was your dad a carpenter? Was he in the union?

They were general contractors.

Okay.

So I thought I was gonna take over the company, but that didn't happen.

What happened?

I don't really know. They just, um, he really just sold everything and stopped doing it. We, there were at least 3, 2 cousins and my brother who wanted to take it over, but for whatever reason, I don't think he really wanted to share it. And he certainly didn't share any of his knowledge and just kind of got to the point of his retirement and sold Apartments they had built, all the equipment they had done.

Really?

All his good— just everything. Everything was just gone.

That pissed you off?

Pissed me off. I was at 20 in civil engineering for that reason at University of Akron. And yeah, it pissed us off big time. Like, and we never got an explanation. So that's what I thought I was gonna be doing at 20.

How long did he Live after he sold all that off?

Probably another 20 years. He lived to about 86.

Really? So he never explained it?

No.

Wow.

No, never explained it. My nephew, who's a general contractor now, when he was about 20, we took him back there and tried to get like, how'd you do it, Grandpa? How'd you do it? How did you get land to build houses on? He didn't really explain anything to him either.

That's wild.

And I don't know if he just had a, uh, A hair up his ass. Just didn't want to share his knowledge. Or maybe he couldn't, maybe he didn't know. I don't know.

Yeah. That's fascinating to me.

So certainly not thinking I was going to be in healthcare to the degree I am now.

Yeah, no kidding. Like you and me both. I used to get queasy when I walked by a Walgreens. God, I remember when my first wife went to nursing school in her 40s. Right. And I was like, and she had to practice like doing blood pressure on me. I'm like, I'd get, I'd get all freaked out.

Really?

Yeah. Now I'm like, let me see the abscess. You know, it's like, wow, look at that thing bleed. Yeah. It's really fascinating to me. So how did you get in healthcare? 'Cause you're a chiropractor, right?

I'm a chiropractor.

So, okay. So 20 years old, not gonna go into the quote unquote family business 'cause it's sold. Screw this. I'm not gonna be a carpenter. What happened?

I was, uh, you know, from 9th grade I was lifting weights. I was cooking my own meals. I was taking vitamins. I couldn't wait to get Muscle and Fitness magazine. I couldn't wait for that, that thing to come out. Right. Yeah.

I'm laughing cuz I'm just seeing like, I was not into fitness then. I was into fitness. I was into photography, but I know exactly the feeling like, oh God, it's the 15th. Where's the magazine?

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Eating raw eggs and orange juice. Oh, I was, and we grew up going to chiropractors. We grew up doing that.

Really?

So while the, that's kind of odd. Yeah. While the family was in, you know, they were general contractors. And, and they ran equipment and they would get in a ditch and work if they had to. And so that's how they took care of their body. I thought everyone went to a chiropractor. We started going when we were young. Um, and I just kind of learned, and our, our family doc, uh, while he practiced family medicine was an osteopath. And so we got manipulation.

Oh yeah.

Okay.

Yeah. So that makes sense.

So I'd been getting manipulation and I'm like, well, I like this natural medicine stuff. I like weights. I like nutrition. What can I get into that plays with all those sorts of things and talk to my chiropractor about it? And he's like, you'd love it. 'Cause that's what we do. Natural medicine, nutrition, diet, exercise, fitness. And I looked no further, kind of went down that road, decided to get out of Ohio where I grew up. Des Moines, Iowa.

You went to Parker?

No, no. That's Palmer.

I'm sorry, Palmer.

I didn't go to Palmer 'cause I looked at the weather and Des Moines was like Ohio.

And I'm like, screw that. I gotta go to this school. Yeah. I grew up in Chicago. I'm like, get me outta here.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, uh, where'd you wind up?

Sandy, uh, LA College of Chiropractic. Oh, Southern California.

Yeah. Southern Cali. I'm actually in the process of moving to Southern California. Uh, I am from Scottsdale. I, you know what? I've wanted to be there my entire life. I remember being 8 years old looking at LA going, it's really nice out there.

It is nice. Yeah.

And it's a little expensive. It's a little nuts, but, uh, yeah. After all these years, I'm finally breaking down, but yeah, gonna go get a shot. So you, did you go down the traditional path? Like, was it all insurance and everything? Like just You were just gonna be a crack 'em and stack 'em kind of guy, or were you looking at like something different? What was it?

Yeah. I mean, back then I got outta school, I was 25. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. They really didn't prepare us. I worked as an associate in Newport Beach for a, I will consider a mill. We saw 600 patients a week there, just cracking people. 600?

100 patients a week.

Yeah.

How many providers?

So the main guy would easily see 80 a day by himself, 4 days a week. There was another guy who was pretty busy, and then I was a junior guy. Second I got my license, they're like, good, you're working all the Saturdays. And I'd see 60 patients Saturday morning, 8 to 12. Hated it.

Wow.

'Cause I couldn't really give any advice. I couldn't do anything.

You just cracked 'em and moved on.

Just cracked 'em. In fact, he told me, don't talk to the patients about diet and exercise.

Really?

Like, you are a triathlete. You turned me on to juicing. You're into nutrition and we can't talk to people about this. I had no idea what I'd gotten myself into. So yeah, it was all insurance, auto insurance, liens. PPOs were just coming out.

Oh God.

Yeah.

It was the golden age of chiropractic of just billing. Yeah. He was making a mint.

Yeah, he was. And then the PPOs came out and I was like, We were all like, why would I sign up for this to get less money? Well, I couldn't sign up anyway.

Right.

Because they had rules. You had to be outta school, like, I don't remember, 3 or 5 years. So I couldn't get in network or do any of that anyway. But I took the insurance and, uh, was on that treadmill my first year. I made $19,000.

Oh my God.

That was in 1990.

Brother, I was a golf pro, an assistant golf pro, and I made $15,000. Oh, so yeah, that's not much. $19,000 in Newport in 1990.

No, no, not at all.

Wow.

So I kind of just did that because that's what you did. And there wasn't really anybody doing cash business back then. What was big then was the no out-of-pocket cost.

What was that?

Was it called no out-of-pocket pay or NOOPY or something? It was called, and Where you just waived coinsurance, deductibles. You just took whatever the insurance company gave you. Oh, okay. Which in 1990 was still pretty good.

Yeah, it was probably a couple hundred bucks.

Right. And deductible.

Now it's like $29. It's freaking awful. It's awful. Some chiropractic pay clients. I'm like, bro, just use the adjustment as the lead gen. That's all it is. Like, that's all it is. Get 'em on laser. Get a, get a doctor in there that do regens, something like, don't, don't try to figure out how to make a squeeze more money out of the turnip.

Yeah. The reimbursements for chiropractic through the payers, the Blue Cross United, Cigna, and Aetna, they all have a middle layer that hides. It's a shell game with this middle layer. And they have not raised reimbursements in 25 years. It's like $35 a visit.

It's nuts.

Yeah.

They've never raised reimbursements.

No.

So when did you, when did you realize that the system was just kind of messed up?

Early on. Um, where did I get new patients in Newport Beach, in, in Costa Mesa, Newport Beach?

Mm-hmm.

We'd go to the swap meet.

What?

Orange County swap meet.

Get outta here. Would you set up a table and do like 3 adjustments?

Not adjustments, but spinal screenings. And again, I didn't learn any of this in school. I went to a really medically based—

You set up a table at the swap meet? Swap meet.

There was 100,000 people a day that went through the Orange County swap meet. And I learned to talk to people. I learned how to talk to people. And for lack of a better word, sell.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where I'd find new patients and get them. And, and then the reimbursements were poor and I was like asking myself, where are the new patients? Where are they? How am I gonna get in this flow? And I realized then they're with the MDs. Now, in 1990, we were still called quacks. I was called a quack to my face.

Yep.

No one really wanted to, in the system, wanted to work with us. But, um, I ended up hitching my wagon to primary care.

Really? Yeah. So tell, tell me about that. Like, how did you, so did you do it in LA or in Southern Cal? Did you went up here in Denver? Like, how did that all work?

No, Southern California. I was there, practiced 3 years and struggled nonstop. It was a struggle. Um, and was always on the verge of not paying my bills.

Yeah.

Um, I came to Colorado in '93. And found some, well, even before I got to family practice, I learned about manipulation under anesthesia. It's an old DO procedure.

Oh, really? Never heard of that.

Yeah.

So tell me about that.

Back then they would put people under general anesthesia and manipulate 'em and stretch 'em, break up fibrous adhesions, things like this. Frankly, I was like, I can make money doing this. Right?

So you were in the, this is during a surgery or they would just Like propofol. I'm like, what?

Propofol.

So I really, wow. I'm in like, cuz propofol's good.

And Versed.

You know, the first time I ever took that, I had a colonoscopy. I came up and I'm like, oh, I know why Michael Jackson got addicted to that. Yeah. That shit's great.

Yes, exactly.

I feel like I just slept at it. Yeah.

10 hours. Right.

That's what my— so it's the greatest stuff in the world. You were, you would put, wait, so I wanna make sure I got this right. You would put people under with Versed and propofol and you would adjust 'em.

Well, in a surgery center, right?

Yeah, I get it. I know, like, you're not doing, like, I know you're not doing it in the back room. Right.

Yeah. So, so when I started down that path, guess what? No privileges for chiropractors anywhere to do this. So I went to a local community hospital in Boulder, spent 8 years with other people to develop chiropractic privileges for a hospital. And We did that.

So wait a minute. You come out to Colorado, you start working with a DPC, direct primary care, right?

Primary care. Oh, primary care.

I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm sorry. PC. And then it took you 8 years to get this developed.

Yeah.

Well, you are a stubborn SOB.

Yeah. I wanted that. And then, then they gave us privileges and I never applied because I was like, okay, so what can I do here? Can I do this? No. Can I do this? No. Will you give us a room on the orthopedic floor? No. I'm like, well, what good is this to me then? Like, what am I supposed to do? You can adjust them on a bed. I was like, so what's the average length of stay? Like 1.4 days. I'm like, they can live without me. I'm not applying for this.

Really?

Privilege. So I never did. Now what we did do, which was smart, was make the privileges portable within the state of Colorado. 'Cause we built them, 'cause no one knew how to do it. Right. We built them around state laws, chiropractic, laws, you know, within our scope. So the, the privileges were portable. So, you know, accelerate 25 years later, I'm at Denver Health as a contractor and they're like, we wanna put you on the medical staff, but we don't know how to do it.

I was like, oh, I know.

I do. And I got those privileges and I handed it over. And in a month, you know, through, through the credentialing process, now as the first chiropractor on the medical staff. That said though, when we did that in Boulder, we were able to take this to 2 or 3 different surgery centers and work with physiatrists who were doing interventional pain. So they'd do their injections. We would do manipulation under joint anesthesia, or we'd let them do their procedures. And then we'd come back a day or two later and do MUA.

Wow.

To stretch out fascia and stuff. We tracked outcomes and data and people got better.

And this was all under insurance?

All under insurance.

So this is all through like the '90s up until 2000s?

This was in the early 2000s. During the '90s, I struggled.

Yeah.

And even in Boulder where I practiced, that was, there was a town of 100,000 people with over 100 chiropractors.

Oh my God.

And the Boulder School of Massage and the hospital that owned the Sports Medicine Institute and most of the physicians. And so struggled there too.

How did you do that? But what came out of that for you? So, okay. The struggle when you have struggle, right? Like you develop skills, like at the swap meet, you learn how to talk to people. You learn how to sell. What was the skill that started being developed for you in that year, those years of struggle in Boulder?

Collaboration.

Tell me about that.

How am I going to work with the system? How do I get myself in the system? Right. The privileges didn't do the trick that I thought they would do. They did to some degree with the manipulation under anesthesia, but it was like, how do I go to largely primary care is where I started and say, I'll take all your failures. That's what I said. I will start at the back end.

So you'd go to a primary care doc, say you've got somebody with a bad back, bad knee, bad hip. Let me have all your—

Mostly focused on spine, cuz that's what they thought of us. Chiropractors only know spine. Great. Gimme all your failures.

Wow.

You mean failures, myofascial pain failures, surgery failures, PT failures. Primary care does not like to manage musculoskeletal care. No, they don't like to prescribe narcotics. They don't want to do work comp. They don't want to do auto. I wanted work comp and auto cuz those were the only 2 good payers. In Colorado. So that's kind of how I got out of the Blue Cross United Cigna Aetna $35 reimbursement.

You did all the work comp.

I did work comp and auto and got really good at it and trustworthy at it. And so I was getting referrals through from insurance companies, from primary care, from physiatry. But I started by asking for everyone's failure and they were glad to get rid of people.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Go to the chiropractor.

Wow.

And so I learned, hey, that worked. How do I do more of that? And, and we were, look, I educated them. I educated them with their own research, not chiropractic research. I'd take research on spinal manipulation, not chiropractic. And I was like, don't confuse the procedure with the profession. I'm not talking about chiropractic. You might not like us, But you can't refute your own out of JAMA and British Medical Journal and all those other journals that manipulation works. And they couldn't refute it. And so give me your failures. And that was kind of what I learned. Like, how do I get in the system? That was a good way to get into the system.

You know, it's fascinating. And you and I've known each other. God, remember when we first met through, God, I'm forgetting his name for the life of me. I can hear his voice. He's saying, how you doing, man? So, um, we'll think of it here in a second, but I've always thought of you as like a rebel because of your work that you do today with Regenexx. I mean, you've really been on like the leading edge and the cutting edge of doing something that's unbelievably transformative in the industry. And yet you were learning how to work in the system back in the late '90s, early 2000s.

And that was rebellious.

So that was, so tell me, so, okay. 'Cause like when I think of you and like, obviously we've talked more on the phone than I think we hung out in person, right? But you know, we like each other's, everything's on LinkedIn and I, you know, it's one of those things I've never really hung out and spent a lot of time with you, but I feel like I know you very well.

Same.

And I've always thought of you as a guy who was just running through the temple of life, casually tipping over tables.

No, no, that, that was, You know, my colleagues were like, what the hell are you doing working with MDs? Like, right.

We, but that was, that whole concept was radical.

That was radical then. And, you know, we were sort of not bred, but to hate MDs. They hated us. We hate you back.

Yeah. For no apparent reason.

For no good reason. Yeah. There was a reason, but not a good one. And, um, and so that was rebellious and I got a lot of flack from my colleagues and stuff for doing that. And But that's, that was how I was gonna make my living and that's how I made a great living. Never worried about patients, never worried about getting paid again. I was on the treadmill.

Mm-hmm.

You know, seeing 30 work comp patients a day, sometimes with interpreters, that's hard work. It's a grind. Seeing auto injury patients where the attorney's coaching them on how not to get better, that's a grind. Yeah. You know, I bet, sifting through the bullshit to get to what you need to know. Uh, and knowing when to release people, knowing when to call their doctor and say, hey, This guy just told me he's selling the pills you're giving him. So just wanted you to know.

Just give you a heads up.

Yeah. So a lot of that was rebellious for a chiropractor to do in the '90s, early 2000s. Uh, not so much today, but definitely was.

Yeah. Back then it was, cuz I, oh man, my, so I've been going to chiropractor since I was like, since 1981, like 1981, '82, like one of the guys at the golf club was a chiropractor and I was having a back issue and he said, come on in. I was like 16 and he did an adjustment. I'm like, what the hell just happened? Like, it felt great. But, you know, in my world, in the direct response marketing world, Dan Kennedy, where I cut my teeth. So that started in 2004 for me. There was a ton of chiropractors, Ben Altadonna, Chris Tomczak was in my mastermind group of HealthSource, like all these guys. And it was, it always struck me as Back then it was, it was moving out of the wild, wild west and it was starting to become a little bit more professional from a business standpoint. Like it felt like the getting big reimbursements from Medicare and the trial lawyers and all that was kind of slipping away. So are you, you still seeing patients today?

Just retired last September.

So how's that feel?

You know, um, I was with my college, my chiropractic roommate sitting on a dock in Maine when I made the decision, because I was getting ready to travel out of the country. And I'm like, I gotta let 'em know I'm going. And, and so the medical director at Denver Health's like, so what are you doing? I'm like, you know what? I think it's time for me to retire. I'd been doing it 35 years.

So you were at Denver Health, which is a big group hospital system. Okay. Talk about that. How did you wind up in that?

It's the SafetyNet hospital system here in Denver. I ended up there because they were one of the first people who trusted me as a chiropractor to see their work comp patients. So ages ago, like 25 years ago. Yeah. And I started with dry needling.

Oh my God.

That's what convinced them when I could share the results. And you know where I learned that?

Hmm.

Chris Centeno.

Get outta here.

He was the guy I'm sure that brought dry needling to the United States. And he was always welcoming to chiropractors. And I asked him 30 years ago, I've known him like 33 years or so.

Why do you— You've known Chris that long? Yeah. Wow.

I said, why do you get us?

What'd he say?

I put my hands on people like you do. I feel what you feel.

Is Chris a DO?

He's an MD.

He's an MD, but he's a physiatrist.

Ah, a good doctor will touch people. Yeah. Very touchy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Look at the picture and like, okay, we're injecting here. And so I learned it watching his, his people. He had PTs that were trained that were doing it in with him early on, long before Regenexx. And then I found some, I had an acupuncture certification. I found somebody to teach me dry needling and then I was off to the races. And so I went to Denver Health. I was like, hey, dry needling is like trigger point injections.

Mm-hmm.

Except we're not doing anything. We're not injecting anything. Get similar results. Here's some studies.

It works.

Um, and they started sending me patients and that started the process on an—

Wait a minute. How could you as a chiropractor do dry needling? I thought you couldn't break the skin.

Colorado, we can do dry needling and acupuncture with training.

Wow.

And now that's probably almost every state in the country. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting.

And so they got it. And so, uh, I started getting work comp referrals from them. They were treating city and county of Denver employees and Denver Health employees. That was our clientele largely. And there was an op— and I was busy outpatient, you know, in my own practice through referrals. Then there was an opportunity to go in-house after there was a regime change. Mm-hmm. Because the regime used to say, we don't do alternative medicine. And the occ med department is like, well, chiropractic's part of the state work comp guidelines.

Yeah.

It's not alternative medicine. But once the, the, the former CEO left, then they were like, okay, we're ready for you to come in-house. And that's how I, so I had a good 10-year relationship with them prior to going in-house. And then I ended up practicing in-house with them for 13 years.

Wow. Like you are not the typical chiropractor.

Not at all.

Not at all. You're like, not that you, where do you think that bucking the system comes from? I mean, your dad was an entrepreneur.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you mentioned Dan Kennedy. He was one of my first Oh, really?

So you're a Kennedy. You're, you've been on the planet, planet Dan.

Yeah. And, and did some coaching with Ben all the time.

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, but, um, you know, I just, I think even since I was a kid, I bucked the system. I went to Catholic school. We had to wear ties. I was like, I'm wearing a bow tie.

I didn't wear the tie. Um, I got in real trouble. Yeah, I'm sure. 'Cause we were a block away from the Catholic and I was numbed last to 6 and my brother Dan and Tim were rubbing up against the law. You know what I mean? Like they were, man, the sis— Sister Mary Elizabeth, whatever, did not like that.

Yeah.

You're gonna burn in hell, little glugly. You're gonna be like your brothers.

Right.

Wait till I call your father. I'm like, I'll put the tie on.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, sure. Uh, yeah. So that's kind of, it just was in my nature. It was in my blood. You know, I think, you know, they were first generation Italians.

I was gonna say, So your dad was born, your mom and dad, first generation born in America.

Born in America. But the rest, you know, my—

Grew up in a house that spoke Italian, probably.

Yep. On and off. Yeah, for sure. Um, uh, and then, you know, just trying to figure out how to make a living. Where are the patients? They're with the MDs. I'm going over there. I mean, I got no loyalty to anybody at this point. I'm trying to pay my bills and stay, you know, keep my head above water. And that worked. I liked the collaboration.

Yeah. I liked it.

I don't need to try to figure everything out. Sometimes I needed drugs to help people get outta pain. I practiced in a pain clinic in physiatry for 10 years. So I saw, you know, well, during the Purdue Pharma heyday, we had 4 opioid deaths in one quarter in that practice. I saw epidurals were useless. I saw ablations were generally not very helpful. I saw a lot of surgical failures, but I could provide something.

Mm-hmm.

And do my work and have a lot of autonomy.

Was there a moment in this journey? So you come out in '91, right? You're 20, 90, 25 years old. Okay. So the '90s, you're kind of sucking wind. Was there a moment in there that you were like, this is bullshit, I need to quit?

Oh yeah.

Like, was there a point where you almost just threw it in and gave up?

Many times.

Yeah.

Many times.

What made you stick?

Well, the first time I went to, um, Uh, was at Kirksville College of Osteopathic Medicine. 'Cause I was gonna, I was literally only outta school about 4, 3 or 4 years. And I'm like, this profession sucks. I'm gonna go become a DO. 'Cause then I can still touch people, do some stuff. And yeah, I went to Kirksville. They're like, yeah, we'd love to have you. You gotta start from scratch.

Oh shit.

I'm like, I'm not doing that.

Would you be like 28 at the time? You'd be fucking 36 by the time you got out.

Right. I'm like, I'm not starting Scratch. And then, you know, struggling into the early 2000s, I was at this physiatry group and still struggling. And, um, I was like, maybe I should go be a drug rep, even though I don't buy that crap. But I hear they make good money.

And, um, were you married? Were you married by the, at this time? Um, in the 2000s?

I, yeah. Uh, I'm thinking, yeah.

It's okay. They're, it's a quiz. Hopefully your wife won't hear this.

No, she won't. The missing years, I call those. The missing years. Um, I think I was married. No, no, actually I was not married at that time.

And so I'm always fascinated why, 'cause like I think of my own journey. So I've been an, I'm 58, I've been an entrepreneur. My first business was at the country club shining, you know, it was a bad guy, right? Shining shoes and washing and waxing cars. Somebody drives up one day, I was, I shined his shoes every Saturday 'cause my dad was a World War II Marine and he taught me how to spit shine shoes.

Let me see that.

Yeah, these look horrible. I, I don't, I, I take, I, I, if I see a guy, he cleans them for me. Like at the airport.

Yes.

There's a guy, I'll do it. And I don't do it myself anymore. And he's like, hey, you guys know how to wash and wax cars? And I'm like, my buddy Mike Lyons goes, yeah, I'd never washed or waxed a car in my life. And he goes, great. Uh, don't rub around all the seats too much. Right. Pay you $20. And we want, that was my first business. Like then we had like, we were doing like 10 cars a day and like shoes and we got really busy. We had to hire other guys. So I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. My dad was an entrepreneur. My mom completely discouraged me from being an entrepreneur, which was really funny because she was an independent contractor for, she did, um, travel agency stuff after my dad died. But the funniest thing in the world is when I talk to entrepreneurs, there's probably, I've probably had 20 to 25 moments where I'm like, fuck this. I'm going to go get a real job. Right? Did you ever go put out the resumes at all? Did you ever like start to apply for stuff?

No, I never did.

I, I, why not?

I, I, you know, I just was not ready to give up that completely.

It wasn't that bad.

It was a, it was bad, but I was gonna figure it out.

Yeah. I could never finish completing the, 'cause it'd been so long since I'd done a resume. I couldn't, I did. I'm like, I don't know how to do this. Like, how do I put what I've done on one page? Everybody was like, it's gotta fit on one page. I'm like, how do I fit what I have done for the last 15 years on a page? Remember when I went bankrupt, my wife at the time was like, you've Then my mother, you've gotta go get a real job. And I like sat down for like 4, I couldn't do a thing. I'm like, how the frick am I gonna tell anybody what I've done?

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a resume. I couldn't probably do a, uh, an interview.

I have LinkedIn. Yeah. Right.

I'd probably fuck, say fuck too many times during an interview.

In LinkedIn, in the interview, I'd probably tell 'em what's wrong with their business in reinvented form. I'm like, you got a whiteboard here? Let's draw this out. Let me show you where your customer acquisition model's kind of fucked up.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. But was there ever a moment? What, when was there a moment where you just said, I ain't giving up?

Yeah, it was when I was at that physiatry group. I was, that's when I was really, and I was working with, uh, like a, um, a consultant. Uh, me and the chiropractor I brought in there were like, this sucks. What else can we do?

Right.

And he was trying to kind of coach us into some sort of medical sales.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd look at this stuff and I'm like, I don't, Do I have these qualifications? Can I do this? Do I wanna do this? No, I don't. So that's when I dug in and thankfully sticking around, I had a great, um, she was a great practice manager there who took me by the hand and introduced me to people and got me, you know, business in places that I would, that chiropractors never went to. Mm-hmm. Concentra being one of 'em, right? Work comp.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Because that's what physiatry did. We were doing work comp. She took me into the Concentra Delayed Recovery Clinic. She's like, he's with us. He wants to be in-house. He does chiropractic and acupuncture. Boom. I'm in there.

Really? That fast?

That fast. And I was the busiest provider in there. I was seeing like sometimes 30 patients a day.

Did it start to change financially for you too?

Totally changed financially.

Yeah. What was that like?

That was great, man. I, um, not that I went and spent a lot of money. I, I, I, um, but it was just nice to have a cushion in my savings account and I saved Nonstop. At that point I was divorced. I was living alone. I was living well below my means. I was just—

Well, divorce will do that to you.

Yeah.

I've done that.

That's an understatement.

I've done that twice.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

I've learned I'm on the third time. I ain't, I'm, I'm not the one moving outta the house. You're moving outta the house.

Yes.

Yes.

It just is.

I've done that twice. I'm like, oh, fucking, you know, I've bought furniture, brand new furniture twice. So yeah, like that's no fun.

Yeah.

Not at all. So what's life like now? What are you doing these days? Because I know you will talk about your, a little bit with your work with Genix, and I want to do dive into that a little bit, but like, so you're not practicing chiropractor anymore?

No. And so you asked me what that felt like. It felt like I was unleashed. That's the only word I could tell my friend because he asked me, I just hung up. I'm like, I'm done. He's like, what's it feel like? He's a little, he's 6 years older than me. I'm like, the only word I can think of is unleashed.

And this was what, 6 months ago?

This was in September.

September.

Because when you have a practice, You're always tied to it. Yeah.

And it's impossible to sell those things.

It, you have no value in, in it. You know, you're as good as—

I talk to doctors all day long.

Yeah.

Um, but if you're, if you're lucky, like 5% of 'em get value. I have clients that we've taken to that point, like chiropractor. We're working with a couple chiropractors now that are redoing Regen and then a bunch of doctors, like we've helped them transform the practice so they're no longer there and they can walk away and get a, one's, one's got an offer on the table for like $5 million.

Yeah. That's how you gotta build it so it can run without the personality.

Took him 3 years to get there, but yeah. Yeah. Before, when I met him, it was probably worth $500 grand. Now it's, he'll probably get $5 million for it.

That's great.

Yeah.

But anyway, so yeah, being unleashed was great. And, uh, and then there was about a 3 or 4 month period where I, I don't wanna say I was lost, but I was like, what do I do with this vacuum?

What did you do?

More what I'm doing now, but Also like started reading books, novels, started doing, you know, other things with my family, you know, traveling. 'Cause I was now unleashed, you know, the longest I ever was out away from the practice was 2 weeks in 35 years, uh, when I went to China to learn more acupuncture. So I never was really gone and did anything, went anywhere.

Yeah, I know. It's like my trip to Japan. There's 3 days of business around the 7-day trip. All right, let's go.

Yeah. So, so, um, and now I've just filled it with less rushed time.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, doing what I do, you know, with Regenexx, working out, making sure I'm staying fit.

You know, you still get the Muscle Magazine delivered every month?

God, I wish they still had that. No, but I should get back on that prescri— subscription.

Prescription subscription. I want to talk a little bit more about the chiropractic space, because we have probably about, I don't know, 10 to 15% of our clients are chiros. What's kind of your feeling of the state of the industry for chiropractic, especially for the independent, the, the single practice owner?

I think a lot of them are dropping insurance because, right, copays are more than—

oh, they're shit.

And so the reimbursement's still $35. You got a $40 copay. It's not really—

if you're lucky, you get $40. Yes.

And so, um, I think, I think the profession is making some headway into more medical practice, right? So they replaced me with a chiropractor at Denver Health. Um, my buddy I worked in physiatry before with works for a, with a, not for, but with a large physiatry practice in-house. Um, I know University of Colorado has chiropractors, so I think there's more opportunities opening up. Uh, as probably an employed doc, but those that are independent aren't really doing much insurance. The guy I go to in my neighborhood, he's awesome, but he's dropped most insurance because it's not worth his time or effort.

Are the venture capitalists going in and buying practices like they are in the other spaces?

That's a really good question. I don't know the answer to. I had this conversation with my buddy recently and I was like, to your point, if you can get out of being the guy, The personality and build a system.

Mm-hmm.

That's something venture capital or private equity would wanna buy.

But the limitation, so to me, the limitation in the chiropractic space is, well, first and foremost, if they're Medicare, Medicaid, there's restrictions. There's a different law that exists with chiropractors that doesn't exist with doctors, that if something is covered under Medicare, Medicaid, you can't pay cash, charge cash for it. Correct? Right.

Manipulation.

Yeah. Yeah. Manipulate. Yeah. So like laser, right? So laser is one of the things we'll tell our chiropractic clients. We get a lot of clients from CE Lasers and they have a lot of chiropractors, right? And so they have a difficult time offering that to people over 65 because they have more constraints with the insurance laws than a doctor or a DO does. And I know you were employed, but any insights on that? Or if you have any—

Well, Medicaid doesn't cover chiro. Okay.

Medicare does.

Medicare does, but chiro can't opt out like physicians.

Yeah, that's the thing. They can't opt out, which is bullshit to me.

I agree.

It's fucking bullshit.

And to hold our feet to the fire for all kinds of things or re— lower our reimbursement. I'm like, we don't cost anything, right? Compared to anything else you pay for, we're like nothing, right? Cost-wise. So picking on us. Um, if you sign an ABN, advanced beneficiary notice, letting that member know, hey, mm-hmm, this laser's not covered. Shockwave is not covered. You can bill them. You know, we did it with, when I was working in the physiatry group, um, haven't assigned an ABN. I really think acupuncture would be more helpful for you than manipulation. And I wouldn't even do manipulation.

Just do the lasers.

Just do the acupuncture. Do the acupuncture.

Do, yeah. Do the dry needling.

Yeah. So I see more chiros kind of doing that sort of thing.

I'll tell you one of the great, we have a couple clients that have done this and We, and Kyra's like, what do I do? I'm like, we need to get you connected with a doctor, an MD or a DO, bring them in and have them do regenerative, do PRP. They've done phenomenally well. Like they'll go to $150 grand a month, like overnight.

Yeah, I bet.

I mean, if they can, they like, well, I've got a really good friend of mine. He's next door. He's a, uh, pain management. He's been talking about PRP. Maybe I'll talk to him. I'm like, yeah, get it. Let's, let's set up a phone call. Let's get, let me help you walk you through this. And it is like, to me, the chiropractor's database is the absolutely perfect database for doing Regen because there comes a point where there came a point with me, with my back, the spinal decompression, the adjustments wasn't working anymore. Like the pain wasn't going away.

Yeah.

I mean, the clients that we have that we've been able to get them connected with someone, or they have a, they already have a friend or they have a medical director, maybe they're doing something. Their business just skyrockets. I mean, it's just a phenomenal thing. Did you ever put in nutrition or anything like that into your work?

So I was functionally medicine trained by Jeff Bland in the '90s and practiced in Boulder with Bob Roundtree, who's still part of IFM.

He's Bob's. Wow.

Yeah.

How old is Bob now? I've only heard the name. I don't know him.

He's gotta be in his 70s.

7. I was going to guess 80, but yeah. Okay.

Nah. And so I was around that. We had, yes, the answer is yes. We had an apothecary about half the size of this room. We'd sold like in the late '90s, early 2000s, $40,000 or $50,000 of supplements a month in Boulder with Whole Foods, with Wild Oats, with Pharmaka, with all these other places selling supplements in Boulder. You know, they trusted their doctor. They wanted to get what we were recommending. So yeah, I always did supplements. I did, you know, supplements. I, my, my niche after I practiced in functional medicine for a while, I was like, you know, I'm better off just sticking to MSK. So I had fish oil and glucosamine and magnesium and vitamin D. And yeah, I trained physicians on all that. I put everyone on all that stuff.

Yeah.

All the time.

So I want to talk a little bit about Regenexx and your work with them. Okay. Because I think it's fascinating. You've known Chris for 30-plus years.

Yeah.

How long have you been doing work with him at Regenexx?

16 years this year.

16 years.

Yeah.

16 years ago, how many clients did Regenexx have?

Clients. So I was—

Or office or locations, I should say. Yeah.

Well, I was the physician recruiter.

So you were the started that whole thing and you also started the whole like corporate program, right?

No, I didn't start that.

But you've been the guy that been, you're out there. I always see you're like going to events and like connecting with people and—

Right. I'm the most vocal.

You're the most vocal. Okay. You, thou shalt be the most vocal from here on out. Okay. You, that's what we will deem you. What attracted you to Regenexx and the whole concept of, so this is 16 years ago. PRP was probably as quacky as chiropractic.

Yeah.

Right.

Yep.

I mean, you and I were talking offline. I have nothing but mad respect for what Centeno has been through. Like most people, 99.9% of people would've collapsed.

Yeah.

Right.

Sure.

He's taken on the FDA. I mean, he's basically built an industry for us.

Right.

So if you listen to this, Chris, nothing but mad respect for you. But what attracted you to that, to the mission and to this whole thing?

Couple things. Um, certainly I didn't know anything about regenerative medicine.

You just, did you know what that PRP worked? I mean, did we have studies? Did we have studies back then that showed that it worked? Did we even know what cell counts, like the importance of cell counts?

I remember when we got our first cell counter, um, and, and, and it was early. Nobody was doing it at all then. Right. Then we started training people about it. So 16 years ago, again, I was that, Neck deep in physiatry, 30 patients a day. He reached out, um, you know, you wanna help grow the physician network. And I just finished a master's degree in health administration and I was ground down of seeing 30 patients a day. And so I said yes.

Yeah.

And had to really learn a lot. I started going to conferences, talking to physicians. Some physicians are like, this is a bunch of bullshit. It's not, it's quackery.

Some though, I still hear that today.

I know. Yeah.

Like, read the 12,000 studies.

Exactly.

Just go to, you ever hear of PubMed? Just go read it.

So I started going to conferences. There were some doctors though who knew about it, who were into it, who wanted to join the mission. So I wanted to get out of the grind. I saw that traditional musculoskeletal medicine was, we had 4 deaths in one quarter. Steroids was the drug du jour. Like, none of this shit worked.

Yeah.

Right. None of it really worked.

Right.

For anybody. Not for any length of period of time. Yeah. It was, you know, I'm like, you're back, you're back, you're doing it again. It didn't work last time. Why are you doing it again? There was nothing else to offer people. So I was looking forward to one, getting outta practice, 2, finding something that worked. I'd known Chris had been doing some cool stuff, you know, with Brett, with the dry needling. He got chiropractors. I was like, there's probably a there there that I should look into. Yeah. And started reading the blog, you know, cuz he was prolific about writing about it, educating people and And it started to make sense and, um, started talking to doctors. The few that got it, got it. Mm-hmm. And knew that there was something there. And then it was just sort of kind of off to the races.

Who was the first doctor that you saw? He can be either in the Regenexx network or not, most likely Regenexx network other than Chris, that they got it and they were like, oh my God, we're getting amazing results. Was there a, was there a Holy fuck, this shit works moment?

I don't know that there was anybody doing a lot of it before they joined our network, but there were some who were watching it. Roger Cruz, who's a physician in Toledo.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I remember meeting him. He's, uh, primary care sports medicine.

Mm-hmm.

He was the '92 head physician for the '92 Olympics.

Okay.

He was team doc for US figure skating, the Mudhens, University of Toledo. He was a sports medicine guy. at a high level.

Yeah.

On a lot of NCAA committees. He got it. He got it. And I'm like, oh, Roger gets it. So, um, and then just the momentum started to build. Physiatrists in New York, I remember talking to, they got it. They wanted to join. Um, what was his name? He was a chiropractor in California who owned physician clinics.

Mm-hmm.

He got it. And then this momentum started to pick up. There was a large group in DC that was working with, I don't remember who it was, one of the bedside machines.

Mm-hmm.

They were the number one user in the country. They got it.

Was it Mayo Friedless? Yeah. Yeah. Love Mayo.

Mayo's a good guy.

He's been in.

Yeah.

He and his team have been in.

Yeah.

Yeah. We've helped him a lot.

So they got it.

Yeah.

And I was like, all right, this is, this is working. And then I got some procedures and I was like, this, this shit, this stuff is good.

I remember you can cuss. I don't care. I don't give a shit. I've been cussing the whole damn time. Come on.

I told Chris one time, I literally almost in tears, I was like, What you've created is such a life changer. I got a bad neck. Nothing is worse than, than disc problems anywhere in the spine. It sucks.

It sucks. I've had lower back issues. Yeah.

Um, and I was like in tears. I'm like, I am so much better than I have been, you know, for the last 10 years. Like I did not want a fusion. So, you know, once you see it work in your own body a few times, you know, it's, it's real.

We, so for us it was, you know, after I met you, Ben Morris, by the way, Ben was the mutual contact.

Ben, thank you.

Ben with CrystalLytics.

Yes.

Ben was great. Ben had a didactic memory, right? And he loved wine, by the way. This is a total tangent, but this is a great story. And so I was doing consulting work for Ben, like helping him take CrystalLytics and move it out. And this was from between my bankruptcy. I was doing a lot of work with Perry Marshall. You know who Perry is? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Perry's a dear friend of mine. So I was handling all Perry's sales and then Ben comes to me, he is like, you know, you can sell our stuff. And I'm like, okay, Perry, you okay with it? Yeah, go ahead. So I'm working for Perry and we used to do quarterly meetings in Aspen.

Yeah.

Okay. And his place, the Polo Shop, he owns the apartments right up above it. And so Ben's this, he's this unbelievable wine guy and he has a didactic memory. And so we, we get to Aspen and he's doing a wine tasting and he's like, now Matt, I want to know what you're going to think of this wine right here, because the first time we were at Gibson's 2 and a half years ago in Chicago, the first time we met, you— we had a bottle of wine that was similar to this, and you said that you liked the cherries in it. And I want to see if you can— I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about, Ben? Like, I drink wine. Like, I can't— like, he would be like, oh, let's get this bottle. We were in Vegas at the Brown Derby. Let's get this bottle. It reminds me of when we were in, you know, we were at this dinner. And I'm like, Ben, I have no idea. Wildest guy. Like he had, he would remember, you couldn't do a contract negotiation with him cuz he'd be like, yeah, but you said 3 days ago. I'm like, oh my God.

Yeah.

You know, for me, I'm kind of like an off-the-hip kind of guy. And what if we did this? And he's a very literal guy. Great, brilliant guy.

Brilliant.

Brilliant, brilliant guy. Enjoyed doing my work with him. But we then started the clinics and we were off and running, which brings me to that. When we started the clinics, we were doing just trimix. And my doctor comes in and he tells me about the P-Shot. And I'm like, what? You're going to do what? You're going to draw blood out. You're going to spin it down and you're going to inject it back in a guy's penis and it's going to become 20% longer and/or thicker. And it's going to like help the ED. Like, really? Then he did it on me. And about 6 weeks later, I walked into his office and I went, oh, we're going to market the hell out of this. Because it was, it was a game changer. And we were using the Magellan. Remember the Magellan?

Yeah.

I have no idea what the cell count was. Like we were pulling 60 cc's and we were spinning down to like, I don't know, 6 to 7, I think probably 6 or 7. It's been a long time. So I'm going to assume we were maybe over 5 billion cells, maybe, but who knows? Because we didn't have a hematology counter, but we were doing 80 to 100 of those a month between our 3 locations. As I like to say, that's a lot of blood and penises. Like it was, It was a machine. We would do Tuesdays or Wednesdays would be procedure days. And all we would do is we would be numbing guys up, drawing blood, numbing their penis up, spinning it down, wiping the penis off, injecting it back in. You're on your way. Like we had it down to like 25 minutes.

Right.

It was like, it was like building Ford, Ford Model Ts. Which color do you want? And so it was, it was the most, and we were getting unbelievable. That was my first experience. We had guys that had Peyronie's that had scar tissue. The The bend was 40 degrees.

Yeah.

We'd do 3 procedures injecting in and around the scar tissue. They'd be almost straight in like 12 weeks.

Wow.

I mean, and this was when I was like, huh. And then I heard about PRP. So when I sold the practices, I started working with doctors and Petropali was the first, one of the first, well, Siddharth Tambar, he was the first Regenerative and Regenexx client that we had. And he was telling me about the results that he was getting and I was just blown away. And I was like, this is, this gets into the mainstream. This is a game changer. And this was 2018. So this was, it was still in its infancy.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we, you know, and I had, Siddharth was our first Regenexx client. I don't know. We probably worked with 10 or something like that, whatever the number is. But, you know, just to watch, I've been in that space since like 2018, '19, just to watch the advancements of what we get. Like you've probably seen 10x that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was always so exciting when we'd publish another paper.

Yeah. Tell me about that.

Get some credibility. Um, be able to—

Because Chris was prolific.

He's prolific. We have 46 peer-reviewed papers right now. What we've done. And, and he was publishing stuff before that on other topics. But yeah, so prolific. I mean, he made a point of proving it, right? He had to.

Yeah.

So between the papers and the registry and the outcomes, yeah, I've seen it, you know, grow exponentially, be accepted way more than it was obviously.

Does it surprise you how much it's now accepted?

It does and it doesn't because it's still not, still, I talk to a lot of people.

I know. I still talk to orthopedic surgeons like it doesn't work.

Right, exactly.

What do you, how much you drawn? 12 ounces? They're 12 cc's.

I'm like, or they just want to do surgery.

Yeah.

Well, you know, that's in the name. Yeah.

That identity's pretty deep.

Although it's funny because I bet you 50% or more of orthopedic surgery practices, tell me if I'm wrong, have in their back room somebody doing PRP. Yeah.

But they're probably not doing it right.

They're probably not.

'Cause we, we go into those large practices and we have to like Gently explain to them that their methodology is wrong. Yeah. Like they're doing 12, you know, they're pulling out 10 or 12 cc's, they're spinning it down to 4 or 5 and they say you're not getting any measurable outcome. I'm like, right. Well, yeah, cuz you've probably got like a billion cells. You need 5 billion cells. Like, right. You hear of your Don Buford? Yeah. You ever hear Chris Centeno? Go watch their videos, go read their papers. Come back.

Do you even know what the definition of PRP is? Cuz a lot of the studies that show it doesn't work. They're not even hitting that 2x definition. Oh, really?

Okay.

They're not, they're like almost injecting whole blood basically. 1x, 1, and what, like we're 1x now, but what, 1.9?

Yeah. 2 going from 10 to 5 or 10 to 6. Yeah. From down, from 10 down to 6 or something like that.

Well, I don't know the volumes. Yeah. Yeah. As much as I've been around Regenexx, I don't know the volumes.

Yeah. I know enough to be dangerous. Like you and I, you and I could sort of open up a practice and like, yeah, it would be ugly.

Yeah. Yeah.

I always say, you do not want me to treat you.

And I don't wanna open up a practice.

Yeah. That'd be the last thing I'd wanna do. I've thought about it, but okay. So let's go back to this. So you, you joined on, but you were working at the hospital. So how did you manage both?

I did part— I all, uh, from the time I went to work there, I was always just part-time. I just always kept my hands 2 half days a week in patient care. It just, I just did. And then, um, and then, yeah, then I did stuff, you know, in the office when I was there. I did a lot of traveling to conferences, recruiting physicians, physician training. We trained everyone at Centeno Schultz Clinic. So that was always a big, you know, week when we had people training. Um, that's how I did it. I just juggled a lot of things and really wanted to kind of unpit— get out of practice.

Was it, were you driven more about the mission of what Regenexx was standing for, or was it more about getting out of the practice and having an option?

Mission. It became the mission really quickly. It was really the mission.

Because you're really a mission-driven guy.

Yeah, totally. Couldn't do anything that I was not passionate, heart-centered around.

If you had to choose between money and mission, what would you pick?

I think I'd pick the mission because I'd make the money.

So would I. The mission, the money to me is secondary to the, like this work, like I could make way more. I could do what I do in other industries that would I could have one call closes and like, we just, uh, we're probably gonna sign a guy that I first started talking to 5 years ago. 5 years he's been struggling. He's, I think it's time to hire you. I'm like, okay, like told you this 5 years ago in Napa, right? Whatever. But that's, he's a great guy. Like he's got a really good business. He's built a great business. He's just like, I'm trapped. I need to, I'm, I wanna sell it. But to me it's always about the mission. I don't, I mean, I could build a nutraceutical company and do $20 million a year. It's not something that keep, that Gets me excited. Right. Like, I, it's, I'm not excited about that at all.

I like seeing people get better without drugs.

I was gonna say, yeah. So what was it? Was it about the people getting better without surgery?

People getting better. I mean, like chiropractors were no drugs, no surgery. So now this is sort of the next evolution of improving people, helping 'em avoid surgery, steroids, epidurals, freaking opiates.

Epidurals, opiates, the freaking, that lawsuit that's coming on epidurals and, or not epidurals on, uh, cortisone. Corticosteroid, that lawsuit that's coming, I bet that class action lawsuit's gonna be fricking huge. There's, there's a trial lawyer without a, with mommy issues in a basement somewhere looking at those studies going, let's sue the shit outta these guys.

They just gotta stop using that.

It's just awful.

Yeah.

Like one, it hurts like a son of a bitch. And 2, it doesn't work. Right. Like it ruins the ligament. Like it's, here's, I can't believe that there, I cannot believe that there are doctors that still use that.

I agree. Like I was, I, I even in the practice, right? We'd refer at Denver Health, we'd refer to physiatry. People would ask me, how long's it gonna last? I'm like, 2 hours to 2 weeks.

Yeah. I remember when I got it on my foot for plantar fasciitis, I just, I have a much better threshold for pain now. I almost kicked the guy right in the balls. I bet from my other leg, he injected that and I went, I went, I literally, my leg went up like that and he had to move. And I like, I'm surprised he didn't snap the needle off in my foot. I'm like, I am so sorry. He goes, yeah, I forgot to tell you that hurts. I'm like, you think?

I'm like, bottom of the foot, son of a bitch, this hurts. Yeah.

And that's tough down there to get through the skin. So what did your, when you started doing the PRP and the regenerative stuff, what did your colleagues say? What did your fellow chiropractors say?

You know, I really split off from a lot of that.

So you weren't, you weren't into that? Like you weren't, you weren't talking to people? Not really.

You know, once I was done doing that, look, I was on I did. I was on work comp guideline committees. I was part of the state association. I tried to improve everything. It went nowhere. And you can only bang your head so long. So once I got into regenerative medicine on the business side, I was really largely done with the profession. And my colleagues didn't, probably didn't know what I was doing. The few I stayed in touch with were supportive, They got procedures themselves, were referring their own patients for procedures. But yeah, I didn't really keep up with too many people after that. And I still don't, I don't know anybody anymore.

What surprised you the most about, so 16 years ago, what's, what has looked back over those 16 years? What has surprised you the most about the world of regenerative therapies?

Resistant everyone is to change. A system that everyone knows doesn't work.

Isn't that amazing?

It's like, what is the resistance here?

Exactly.

Like, this stuff doesn't work. Your stuff doesn't work. The data shows it doesn't work.

Yeah. The data show it doesn't work. And when was the last time your reimbursement went up?

Yeah.

Like, that's the most amazing thing to me. Like, people are like, well, you know, I was talking to a pain management guy, like, you know, and he is like, uh, you know, I'm just gonna see more patients. Like, you're seeing 60 a day. How can you see more? He goes, oh, just work a couple more hours. I'm like, for what?

Right.

For $39 a visit? Like you're losing money. You're, what are you gonna try and make it up on volume?

Like, and time for money is just no way to get ahead.

No, no.

Doing that more.

Why do you think there's so much resistance? Because you can read the, these are smart people.

Yeah.

You can read the data. The data's really freaking clear. Like why?

I think people would rather sleep with the devil they know.

Yeah.

Look, in the physiatry practice I was in, they were all injection guys. They were all steroids. They were all work comp. They did not deviate from anything. They didn't expand their memory, their, their, their learning. They didn't, you know, but they were quick to throw people under the bus. Oh, that stuff's quackery. That's bullshit. That stuff doesn't work. Well, guess what? Now they're 16 years behind and they still don't do any of it. And they still are on the treadmill of steroids and work comp reimbursements. And, you know, so I just think there's some people that, you know, they just would rather sleep with the devil they know.

You think it's because they sacrificed for so long going through med school, they come out with so much debt, they don't want to fuck it up?

If you don't reinvent yourself, you're fucking it up already anyway.

I agree. But the, what blows my mind is you come out with half of $250,000, half a million, right? Easy, right? You're 53. You've got a 6-year-old and a 4-year-old, right? And you've maybe paid down 20% of your debt, right? You're not making any money. You're up to your fucking eyeballs in debt in your current practice. You don't want to go work for the hospital and yet you have the resistance. Like, what? Um, what if it doesn't work? I'm like, what you're doing now doesn't work. How can you sit there and say this model works? They treat you like a sharecropper. Like you're nothing more than a slave on the plantation.

Right.

Yeah. Your work, at least you get a day off.

Yeah.

Right.

Which you can do catch up on your notes.

Yeah. Which you catch up on your notes, which is not really a day off cuz you freaking sleep till 8 and then you spend the whole day at the kitchen table working on your goddamn notes.

Yeah.

Like it's the most preposterous. I just look at the system from the outside in and I go, who the fuck designed this? Cuz they just sold us a bill of goods.

It's not doctors. They're not in charge at all anymore. No.

Everyone else is in charge. No. What?

The administrators, the CEOs, CEOs, the bucca, the people.

Yeah.

Blue Cross United, Cigna.

Or the, the venture capitalists. Yeah.

Or the VCs.

Yeah.

They're all, and all, all they want is money. They don't want outcomes. They don't want doctors thinking outside the box. They don't want 'em running their practice. Why are there no, why can't doctors own hospitals?

That is the stupidest fucking thing in the world.

Yeah.

Now venture capitalists can own practices and they can own hospitals, which the only way that I know of that you can do it across most of the states, cuz I've studied all the corporate practice of medicine laws throughout all the states, cuz when I own my practices, I, We were looking at expanding, like this was part of what my business plan was. The only way you can do it is if you're a quote unquote nonprofit.

Oh, is that right?

Yeah. Well, isn't that fascinating? Now, I'm not saying that all of them are like that because each state is different, right? In Virginia, you can own a practice, you know, a hospital, whatever. But most of them comes down to it's a nonprofit. So they've got these, the venture capitalists own these things. They're, and they're clearly skirting the law and then they're paying them RVUs, which is commission. Right. Which is against, which is against the whole Stark Laws. Like, it's just fascinating to me.

But that model RVUs has been around forever.

I know.

But yeah, it is. It's commission.

It's commission. Yeah. Call it what it is.

Yeah.

It's a commission. I mean, last I saw, you can't pay commission on insurance stuff. It's against the law. It's just, it is mind-blowing to me that people, that doctors put up with this and they're giving us medicine they know doesn't work.

Yeah.

And they're just like, oh, well.

I think there are, some of 'em are beat down. Some of 'em don't want to change. Some are worried about failure. Like your guys, like I'm struggling 5 years. I'm losing, I'm losing every day. What are my peers gonna say about me deviating a little bit from this? I think there's just a lot of reasons and doctors aren't really open-minded to change. Even when I went in to talk to 'em, gimme your failures. They'd be like, Why?

Why?

What, what are you gonna do with 'em? How are you gonna help 'em?

Mm-hmm.

Just very, they're just kind of skeptical.

What do you think would happen if doctors could own hospitals? What do you think would happen?

The few studies I've seen on physician-owned hospitals, care is better, cost is less. Imagine that.

Uh, Mayo's owned by doctors, right? Isn't Mayo Clinic owned by—

I don't know who own, how Mayo's run. Yeah.

But yeah, care's better, costs are down.

Care's better, costs are less. Yes.

Right.

Consistently with physician-owned hospitals.

You know, you know, I'm a, I'm a capitalist, I guess. I guess I'm a capitalist. Every system's imperfect, right? Like there's, there's no system that's right. I'm probably a little bit more of a libertarian than I am a capitalist. Certainly not a socialist. The thing that blows me away is how you can say to a group of people they can't own something that they work in. That is mind-blowing to me.

Yeah.

How is it that you can say these venture capitalist groups can own these hospitals and these big, big groups, but you can actually have a— like, what do you think the rationale was of saying why doctors can't own hospitals?

I don't remember. There was some BS.

Was it like in the '50s there was some bullshit conflict of interest or something?

It was something like that. Yeah. And the VC-owned hospitals, the opposite is true. Higher costs, more complications. So that's not a good solution either. Why we keep putting up with that though? Well, you know, I'm not a conspiracy guy. I've been around a long time. I mean, we're—

When you get to our age, we, we, you can call it conspiracy if you want. It's just, we've seen life. How about that? Yeah. Like I've seen the shit Yeah.

So follow the money.

Like, it's always follow the money.

Yeah.

Rush Limbaugh was right. Follow the fucking money.

Yeah. Why doesn't things change? Follow the money.

Money.

Yeah. So, um, and doctors have been, for lack of a better word, castrated and don't have the gumption to fight like they need to fight. And I wish they would step up and fight more.

They've been brainwashed. Doctors shouldn't discuss money. It is beneath a doctor to discuss money with a patient. I'm like, Who in the world told you that? Which is again, and I, you know, like even more mad respect for someone like a Chris or a Frank Schallenberger who just said, I don't care if you try to take my license, I'm gonna, this is wrong. Like I just have such, you know, the people that came before us and the, and quite frankly, Mark, I think of you as one of the people that is really one of the true pioneers in this industry. Like I have nothing but mad respect for what you've done. Like the fact that you saw that future 16 years ago and it, you probably couldn't connect all the dots, but something just made sense. And the work that you've done to go out there and recruit physicians, how many physicians do you think you've recruited over the years?

Well, I only recruited about 10 or 15 and then brought on someone else to run with it after that. So the initial 10 or 15.

You've been incredibly modest though, but you've done a lot of work of blazing some trails.

Probably the hardest ones. The, the, the blazing the trail The grail I'm doing now is getting employers to add this to their health plan.

How hard is that?

Hard.

You talked— you didn't hesitate one second, buddy.

You talk about an industry that doesn't want to change. Everyone bitches and complains about the cost of healthcare, and you show up with a solution and you got a bean counter over there that sells insurance plans. 2 conflicts here. Number one, they're being paid by the Blue Cross United, Cigna, and Aetna to keep everything status quo. Keep that client with us. We'll give you, we'll give you overrides, we'll give you commissions. Don't let 'em go anywhere.

Mm-hmm.

Sell the 25% increase somehow.

So they've got a conflict of interest.

Huge.

Yeah, it's massive.

Then there's the ones that work with employers to try to do something better. And this is still too new to them. You know, I try to bring it down from a science and clinical level to cost savings, return to work, happy employees, and they just want to blow holes in it. Nah, it doesn't work. You're just kicking the can down the road. What if it doesn't work? What's the worst case scenario?

Wait a minute. Wait, what if it doesn't work? Okay. Did you, what about your corticosteroid shots?

What about your surgeries that don't work?

Yeah. What about your infection rates?

And so then that's when I put my clinician hat on and I'm like, look, You need a clinician on your team because you don't even— you're not even asking the right questions. You know, surgery doesn't work. You know, spine surgeries fail at like 50%. Yeah.

Look at Tiger Woods.

Knee replacement. Yeah. Look at Tiger Woods. Knee replacements, 20%, 25% of the people still have pain. You're paying for all this crap. Do you even know what happens to those people?

Do you—

have you ever touched a human being? Do you know what it's really like to take care of somebody, or are you just counting numbers waiting for your commission check? So they don't wanna change. Yeah. Not all of 'em. Some of 'em do. The loudmouths though, they're the ones that don't wanna change. The ones you might see publicly talking about everything are the ones that wanna hang on to what they have. And when I show up and say, here's something that really can reduce musculoskeletal costs, get people back to work, give 'em an option in care, people aren't stupid.

Reduce the time that they are out of work and maybe even be to a place where they don't, we, they won't need joint replacement surgery for 10 years. Exactly. I just sent a friend of mine, she was gonna get hip replacement. We're out walking around the town. I'm like, who told you you need hip replacement? I'm an orthopedic surgeon. I go, did they do an MRI? No. Go see Ash Goyal. Go see Dr. Goyal. I just had him on the podcast. She's fine.

Yeah.

I'm like, she wasn't even limping. I'm like, you don't need a hip replacement. You're 58 years old. That's the last goddamn thing you wanna do right now.

There's just a lot of conflicts of interest. And again, you know, I'd rather sleep with the devil I know, or, you know, I get, I get excu— and, you know, I get excuses like, oh, we're focused on cancer. Oh, we got a new CEO. We don't want to rock the boat. Oh, we can't announce too many different strategies. People won't understand it. Just always an excuse.

How much do you think you can save a company in a year if they were to have this option of doing On their musculoskeletal surgery spend, which is about 20% of a healthcare spend, is on MSK. Really? Is on MSK. 20%.

15 to 20%.

What's the other percentages?

What is it? Cancer is up there.

Cancer's gotta be a big one.

Pharmacy.

Yeah.

That's about 15 or 20%.

Okay. So 20% on musculoskeletal. So does that factor in the cost of the pharma? The pharma? Or is it just, so it's probably, it could be another 25 to 30. It could be 25 to 30% if you're factoring in the cost of pharma.

Well, pharma drugs for MSK aren't that expensive. They're NSAIDs. Okay. Lyrica.

All right. So let's just keep it at the 20%. Okay.

So, so we can, half that is on orthopedic surgeries.

Okay.

We can probably help half those people avoid orthopedic surgeries. So 5% of, we could save, you know, on a, on a, uh, yeah, about half that cost. I don't know the number off the top.

I'm trying to figure it out. I was going to say like, yeah, in a company of like 500 So let's say, let this is just for easy math. No, no, no. We're just, yeah, we're making easy math.

Let's say it's $100. 20% of that, $20 is that on MSK. 10%, uh, $10 of that is on orthopedic surgery. We can save $5.

You can save $5 or $7. Okay. And so I did the math in my book. So, uh, it's chapter 13. I factored that we could, if we had 100,000 doctors, Doing cash-based services. And then this factors in functionals, functional medicine as well. Okay. We got 100,000 doctors doing cash-based services. We can positively impact the health of 200 million people here in the United States alone. Okay. Which means that we can save $4 trillion. When I get, when I, when I send you a copy of the book, we'll have it in about a week or so. I'll send you a copy. I'll direct you to that chapter. Read the chapter.

Okay.

But we can save our, we can save our country $4 trillion a year.

That's a lot of money.

I mean, just under, if you look at the out-of-pocket cost for a joint replacement surgery to the patient, because it's 18 months, 18 to 24 months, because they're going to start with NSAIDs, they're going to start with corticosteroid shots, they're going to go to physical therapy. When you factor in their lost time from work, because every doctor's appointment is 3 hours, driving, sitting, waiting, driving back, blah, blah, blah, picking up all the shit. It's 2.5 to 3 hours. When you factor that in, it can be, it's like around $25,000 per patient.

Yeah, I believe it.

Okay. On the high end, it could be $42,000, but the, let's just say the average is like, I'm putting right in the middle of $25,000. You can go see one of your clients and have a Bonog.

Yeah.

And it's gonna cost 'em $15,000 and they're gonna be back at work the next day. I mean, you know, you can save significant dollars. By going, by eliminating, like, I think the worst thing that could happen to PRP and BMAC is if it were to be covered by insurance.

I agree.

People are like, how do we get this covered? I'm like, no, absolutely not.

Right.

It'll, they'll screw it up. They, it won't work. They'll fuck it up.

Right.

I agree.

They'll drive it down to the least dollar that they can, you know, do it for. Yeah. So that's not a good answer.

Yeah. It's really fascinating to me. I love the work you're doing with the With the corporate work. I think that's some of the most impactful work.

It's very impactful. And I love it because I feel like I can help a lot of people. I don't have to touch 30 people a day. We can make a real impact in the cost of healthcare in America. It's, it's, you know, getting a still novel to most people message out that makes total sense to them. And when I normalize it for them, hey, 80 or 90% of academic medical centers do this. You could probably look up in your community and see the, local college, the medical college is doing these procedures. Cleveland Clinic does it. Mayo does it. Hospital for Special Surgery. It is the fabric of orthopedic care in America. If you got money to go pay cash for it. But when we bring it to employers, it makes it, you know, they get all access to all that goodness that comes around these regenerative treatments.

Yeah. Could you imagine a world where the corporate Programs. They have regenerative and functional medicine.

I'm seeing more and more functional medicine getting into the benefits.

Really?

Yes.

More and more. So they're starting to figure out, and you're not just talking GLP-1s. I mean, you're talking about like, you're talking like true gut health, like gut health, autoimmune conditions, the whole thing.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. I see them on stages. Root Health out of Michigan. She's making a great impact. I met some women that worked at the Cleveland Clinic and the functional medicine who are now on their own. There's brokers in their community who go, we like that. We're going to add you to health plans. And you know, you get a fee for here. It's $5,000 a case or something.

Okay.

Yeah, exactly.

But now we can start to impact the cost of our healthcare in this country, because nothing we do impact— the only thing that we do to impact the health of our cost of our healthcare is give them more subsidies from the federal government, which they use in turn to then go fricking bribe Congressmen and congresswomen and senators.

And they're already taking all our money, right? The, I'm gonna pick on UnitedHealthcare because—

Please do. I hate 'em.

They made what, $80 billion in profit last year? They're getting, they're getting premiums from us.

Yep.

And the insured, they're getting tax dollars.

Yep.

That are going for, you know, the ACA plans and everything else. They own the pharmacy benefit manager. They're getting, they made more last year on the pharmacy benefit.

They made more on that than, than premiums. Yeah.

They're getting it from every direction.

They have 11 channels. They're in 11 different stages. They have 11 different companies that take a bite of the apple all the way through. From a Harvard business, as a business guy, as a Harvard Business School, like guy that would do Harvard Business School studies, it's brilliant. Oh yeah. It's horrible. I call the 5— I call the Aetna, the Blues, Blue Cross Blue Shield, the Cignas— I call them the 5 families of the New York Mafia from the 1950s. They've got their fucking hands in everything.

They do.

They're horrible. They have done more to destroy the health of our country.

Agreed.

And if you want to subpoena me or you want to send me a cease and desist, go right fucking ahead. I don't give a shit. You're not going to shut me up because they're criminal. What they have done to our country and what the food companies have done to our country is absolutely criminal. 100% criminal. They should go to jail is what they should do.

Right.

What the food companies have done to this country. And then in the cahoots, they, the health insurance companies don't give one shit about you being healthy. They want to make, they want to get you on that NSAID. They want to get you on diabetes because they're making more money as a pharmacy benefit manager than they are in their health insurance premiums. And this is when you tell this to the everyday American. I mean, I'm a, I'm like you, I evangelize all the time. Right. I'll be playing golf with somebody or I'll be in an Uber. We like, what do you do? I work with doctors. Oh, you're a pharmaceutical rep? No. Um, we take doctors and move them from, from insurance to cash. Well, why do we want to do that? I ask him this question. Have you had surgery lately? Yeah, I just had an ACL reconstructive surgery. Great. What do you think your orthopedic surgeon made? Oh, like 8 grand. I go, he made $850. What? Right. That includes 60 days follow-up. What?

Yeah.

No. How much do you think somebody, uh, OB-GYN? Vaginal delivery. How much do you think they got paid? Oh, like 15 grand. They get paid like $1,200 for 10 months of care, whatever it is. Like, it depends on the state, right? And when you tell this to people, I'm sure you and I are like, I'm at a party with somebody and I start evangelizing, right? They're like, my girlfriend would be like, here he goes.

Yeah.

Christine's like, you shouldn't ask. Yeah. Watch him go. And she's all in, right? Like, she doesn't get mad. What's your wife's name? Amanda. Amanda. What do you do? The same thing? Do you just start going off? What does she say?

I do. And, you know, and she gets it because she's experienced.

Yeah.

Like shitty care, spending a fortune, didn't get your questions answered.

Yeah. It's just bullshit. It's so like, it's the most, I can't believe we put up with this system.

Yeah. I agree.

It's just utter complete atrocity. So it's, it's, it's mind-blowing to me. So I'm curious, what are you, what are your thoughts on Bobby Kennedy? What are your thoughts on Secretary Kennedy? What's going on?

Not everything coming out of his mouth is accurate.

No, no. By the way, not everything comes outta our mouth is accurate either. Right? So we're, you know, fact check me.

Um, I love it. I love it that he's turning everything upside down. Shake it up and let's see where it lands and then we can rebuild it from there. But turning the pyramid upside down, shake it fucking upside down. It's been wrong forever.

Fucking thing didn't work.

Right.

Um, we put that thing in place. Look at the obesity factor. 70% of adults are considered obese. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. We've all known there's poison in the food. Thank you for pointing it out. Maybe some of these people will start to change, hold their feet to the fire.

Fuck, it's in our soil.

It's in it. But, and then, well then that, that, that brings up, you know, glyphosate as a, uh, security risk. Risk. I, Bobby Kennedy sued Monsanto and won a glyphosate trial.

Did you listen to his Rogan interview about that? It was just on like 2 weeks ago.

No, but I gotta catch up.

So basically what he said was, and I was like, that's really weird that he signed the executive order. When you hear him explain, he goes, first and foremost, he goes, I was pissed.

Yeah.

He goes, I sued Monsanto 3 times and beat 'em.

Yeah.

Right. I've sued 'em for, you know, $20, they owe $20 billion 'cause of me. They, I'm, my words, not his, 'cause Bobby's not that, you know, he's not that aggressive. Like he's very modest, but he said, you know, 98% of our corn and 98% of our soy uses glyphosate. If we eliminate it tomorrow, we're gonna have a food issue because it's all glyphosate resistant. Right. Right. Makes, because it's a, you know, we've got a big health, we got a big issue with this. Here's the thing I love about Bobby. People will say to me, well, are you, does that mean you're anti-vax? I'm like, here's my question for you. 1970, our autism rate was like 1 in 10,000. Okay. Now the model with which we had to determine autism, Asperger's, is essentially the same that we have today. Today, that number's 1 in 31.

Yeah.

If you're male, it's 1 in like 24. If you're in California and you're a male baby, it's like 1 in 12. Wow. Now I want to know why, don't you?

Yeah.

Don't you want to know why?

Yeah. We should be able to figure it out.

We should be able to. Do you know that we've never done any double-blind placebo study ever on any vaccine?

Ever. Yeah.

Why? Because the Reagan administration, and it's in the law, vaccines are inherently unstable. That's how they got the immunity. It's not that I'm anti-vaccine. I have a pretty strong opinion that the mercury that we use to bind the binding agent is pretty fucking bad for us. Mercury's never good. Right. I don't know if you've, if you've done a dive into any of that of like, Yeah.

I mean, I have a 13-year-old, so every time I'm like, can we get this without preservatives, thimerosal, mercury, all that jazz? Oh yeah. 'Cause I don't even believe they actually gave her that.

You think they just go grab another vial?

Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, we got one of these guys.

Exactly. You know, I remember when she was born, like within 30 minutes, we're gonna give her a hep B vaccine. I'm like, what the hell? You are? Fuck you.

You are?

We're taking her home. She's not like around dirty needles and bad food and shit.

We'll come back in a week after we've sung up other. Yeah. Like, after we hung out with my drug-addicted brother. No, like, it's fucking like, really? What are you—

Yeah.

72 vaccinations by the time they're what, age 3?

Yeah, something like that.

I mean, in their first round, they're binding like, I forget the number, 25. It's an insane number by the time they're 6 months old.

Yeah.

And I mean, there's more data to show that this is not good, the binding agent of the Thermosol, than it is not.

Yeah.

Like, there's— that's what I love about Bobby. He's asking questions.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I don't care that the questions are uncomfortable.

No, me either. They need to be asked.

Because you're, I mean, you, you have live a very healthy life, right? Like you, you still work out and everything every day. Yeah. You still watch what you eat and every day. Yeah.

Yeah. Track all that stuff.

You do all the functional medicine stuff, all the, you got a stack of injections every day.

I don't take anything.

Get outta here. No, you don't. You're not on T, nothing like that. No peptides. You son of a bitch. I have to take all that stuff.

No, no. I just did, uh, some lab work and, you know, insulin's good. Glucose is good. You know, for 61, testosterone's like high still.

Good for you.

So I'm kind of interested though in some peptides. I'd like to sleep better.

I will tell you, so I'm on BPC-157 and yeah, you know, they just delisted all these, so yeah, now I can legally talk about 'em, I guess. I'm on BPC-157, thymosin alpha, testomorlin or MOTS-c depending on where I am on the cycle. Testomorlin, MOTS-c, testomorlin is for losing weight. My body fat, if I, I mean, not worrying about it, I'm at like 14%. It used to be at 24.

Yeah.

If I really push it, I can get down to 10, which that's just really frankly too much work. Like it is, it's like, yeah.

And deprivation.

It's just like, you know, I drool when I see a French fry and I love cheeseburgers and fries. Yeah. But I mean, I'm on, you know, thymosin alpha. I take a microdose of tirzepatide just to like a really light dose. I'm on hormone replacement therapy. But then, you know, I take creatine and all that stuff, a pill format. I mean, I'm 58. I mean, I'm, you've known me what, 15 years? I think you've known me probably 15 years. We've known each other.

Yeah.

I mean, you probably, you saw me in the days when I was a lot fatter than I am now.

I never saw you in person.

Oh, that's right.

We didn't meet.

We didn't meet until IOF like 2 years ago.

Yeah.

Or 3 years ago.

Remember that? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, so yeah, I like, I like it that they're shaking it up. I, I've met, uh, Marty Makary a couple times.

Yeah. What's he like?

Yeah, he's a great guy.

Yeah.

I've heard him speak at conferences. You know, he wrote The Price We Pay, exposing the shit out of the ripoffs.

Really?

His last book came out about a year before his FDA appointment. What's it called? Blind Spots. He talked about peanuts. He talked about the Women's Health Initiative. This is a bunch of bullshit. We never had peanut allergies. He exposed the science at the pediatric conference, which was not Well done. And they just agreed, okay, we're gonna restrict peanuts. It wasn't that much different in the Women's Health Initiative either. He talked about meeting the researcher and, you know, and grilling him about the data and that it was not a direct cause to an increase in cancer. And you see that change.

Yeah.

So I like Marty. He's a physician, he's a surgeon, he's smart.

Man, they have tried to demonize his ass, huh?

I mean, he, who wouldn't get demonized in any government situation?

Well, especially when you're going, I mean, 'cause the government is owned by all these special interests.

Owned by all of them.

Owned by all of them.

Yeah.

It's, it, now that they, the government, the, the corporations can make contributions to political campaigns. I understand what the Supreme Court was saying about freedom of speech and I, there are not many things that I agree with President Obama on. I agree with him on this. This, this is going to destroy the republic because now the corporations are just going to own the whole goddamn thing. There's no limit on how much they can contribute and they can do whatever they want and through PACs. It's gonna completely destroy.

Yeah.

We're, we're fucked in a lot of ways.

I agree.

Did you ever think you'd see somebody who's like head of the FDA that actually supports the world that we're in? Did you ever think you would see this when you guys were taking on the FDA and all that stuff?

Um, no.

Did you ever think it was possible?

No, no, no, actually.

Okay.

You know, and chiropractors were sort of, and I don't wanna say bred to distrust that people.

Well, yeah, but I'm also talking about like you're working with Regenexx.

Yeah. No. Well, they still haven't, you know, put a good, like, yeah, go get it. But I think they're less reactionary than previous. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, if they're loosening up on peptides and, you know, Bobby talks about getting what stem cells in his vocal cords. Mm-hmm. I don't know exactly what. Hopefully they all lighten this up and, you know, and things can be, you know, under less Constraint.

Yeah. What is your— I'm going to ask you to put in your globe, your crystal ball.

Okay.

What do you think is— tell me what you see in the future for healthcare for this country. You've got a very unique position in it. You've been a provider, you've worked in the hospital. For the big group. You work with one of the, what I would consider the true pioneers in our industry, in the cash-based industry. You've stepped, you've stepped in a lot of different places in this and you have a lot of vision. What do you see?

Unfortunately, haves and have-nots.

Okay. Tell me.

You know, people live in food islands, food deserts. Yep. They're going to eat processed food. It's what they can afford. They don't even know about healthy food. They don't know where to get it. They don't know how to prepare it. They don't know how to store it. That's not going to be fixed quickly or easily.

Mm-hmm.

There's going to be some people in the middle of the road who are going to have more control and more interest in changing things up. You know, they're starting to wake up and then there's going to be the people who who can afford to pay for the things they want. Direct primary care, regenerative medicine, functional medicine, kind of get off the treadmill that have expendable income to do that or value their health more than the money that they're spending on. Right. So I think change will be very slow. Big food, big ag. Oh yeah, we'll remove it in 2099.

Such bullshit.

It's such bullshit. that, you know, there's always going to be a push-pull between pharma and, you know, look, they don't give a shit. They want you on the train. They want you on Adderall from you're a kid till you're on the Alzheimer's med when you're dead.

They want you on, it's the greatest annuity in the world.

Yeah.

It's their form of a month of recurring revenue model.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So I don't see that, you know, I see people and hopefully Maha wakes people up, shines a light, disinfects some things and people are like, Yeah, I'm going to do something different for myself. I'm going to take over more control of my health. I think that there's going to be those 3 camps, you know, the ones that won't, that can't, the ones in the middle that are starting to wake up, and then those ones that are already interested in, you know, peptides and doing things to really maximize the quality that they have left on the earth.

Mm-hmm.

So, But everything's going to be a fight with big ag, with pharma, with big food. It's not going to go easy.

No.

And then who knows who comes in and then backs down 4 years later. Oh, you know what I mean?

That's my biggest concern. Like, you know, okay. So the thing that has to happen is, you know, what really took it to the tobacco companies is the Mississippi Attorney General took them on and won. Right. And basically showed that they had an insider that said, yeah, you manipulated the level of nicotine to get people addicted. And then you advertised it close to schools and did like, I forget that guy's name, but you know, that was monumental what he did.

Yeah.

We need someone like that to do this to big food, because I think if we can fix food, we got a chance.

Well, Robert Lustig's doing a good job doing that. Who's that? He's a pediatric physician at UC Stanford, but he has written so many books. His last one, Metabolical, About how food is making us, messing up our metabolism, creating diabetes. Mm-hmm. Obesity. He's a smart researcher and physician. He's written a few good, really good books. I forget the name of his first one, but I was shocked. He's like, hey, look, they knew smoking caused cancer. They knew you might die before you hit Social Security age. We don't have to pay that out if that happens. The first time I heard that, I was like, holy fuck, that makes some sense.

That makes some serious, like, you know, when you hear something, you're like, oh shit, that's the truth.

Yeah. So he's a good, he's a good voice kind of shining a light on that. You know, Jeff Bland, father of functional medicine, is, I mean, he's 80 years old now, but that guy looks like he's 60 and he's still beating the drum, educating people and trying to work with systems to to get them to change. You know, Mark Hyman's been a good voice too.

He's been in Congress. Mark's been great. I don't know Mark. I look forward to meeting him. I look forward to having him on someday soon. I love what he's done. I have a couple doctors that studied under him, Anoop Kanodia, a couple of others that worked directly with him for like 18 months. They did his fellowship and said he's an amazing man.

So as long as people keep shining that light, you know, um, Callie Means.

Oh God, she's gonna make a great—

no, that's Casey.

Oh, that's Casey. Okay. Yeah. Callie's great. Callie was the, yeah, he was the venture, he was the, um, Lobbyist. Lobbyist. So he's exposed to the whole thing.

He has been shining a light. I heard him speak at a conference not too long ago. And, uh, and I mean, yeah, I mean, he just points it right out. That's what we need. The first time I heard him and his sister Casey, where'd you hear him first? Joe Rogan.

On Rogan. I listened to that.

I was like, oh, actually on Tucker.

Tucker, who I heard about.

Yes, I would. That's right. That's the only Tucker I ever listened to.

I listened to it on Tucker and I sent it to everybody on my team and everybody's like, I'm not going to listen to Tucker Carlson. I'm like, I'm like, it's required. You have to listen to this. And then I sent him Brigham Bueller from Rogan.

Yeah.

And then I sent him Kennedy and I make, I make everybody in the company listen to it. They're like, are you kidding me? I'm like, no, this is what we're up against.

Yeah.

Like, you gotta be like, you gotta understand this. 'Cause like, if you don't understand how deeply this is not something cute, right? Like, we're taking down a system. I'm not here to fix the existing system. No. Fuck the existing system.

There's no fixing it.

There's no fixing it. We're here to create a new one. We get 100,000 doctors free. Guess what? They don't have enough doctors. Now we got a voice at the table. They don't have enough doc— then they gotta, they got an employment crisis right now. You and I, with all our experiences and all the other people that we know, all the people that have been fighting these battles, and you've been fighting these battles longer than I have. I've only been in this space 11 years. Now we got a real voice of the— now we can fix some shit. It's, you gotta cut their supply chain and what's, and they'll figure out a way to use AI, but it's at the end of the day, they're still gonna need doctors.

Yeah.

Right.

For sure.

For sure.

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I, I sound pessimistic, but I've been watching things change for, or been, been involved for 35 years.

I don't think you sound pessimistic.

And it doesn't change fast. It just doesn't change fast. Yeah.

But think about how much you've changed.

Yeah. Right now. Right now, chiropractors getting hospital privileges. People, you know, the things have changed in our profession.

Think about 16 years ago, how many regenerative events were there? Were I'm flying to Tokyo to go do one IOF, 800 people. And now with combination of Toby, you've got, um, AAOT. I mean, there's, think about just the regenerative events alone. There's thousands of doctors going to these, right? And medical providers.

That's great.

And that's Mark, that's a lot to do with the work that you did.

Yeah.

And still do to this day.

And I love those conferences because you can't bullshit a bunch of physicians in a room like that. And I love the panel discussions.

Your shit better be on.

Yeah, it better be on. And better be on the last, uh, I think it was Toby where we were.

Yeah.

It was great. Those 4 people on a panel, I love those different points of view and the, and even the debates, right? Where, you know, they had the gloves on. That's great. That exposes so much good information and limitation that allows people to find ways to make things better. Yeah. I love that.

Cool. Anything else you want to share? Tell people that they need to know.

Boy, love your spouse and you'll have a happy home.

Yeah. Well, that didn't work for— I'm, I'm 0 for 2 on that.

Well, I'm speaking to myself.

I always say you don't want to take marriage advice from me.

No.

Although maybe you should take marriage advice from me, 'cause I can tell you what, here's my marriage advice. Be very, very careful about who you marry. They are the most important. It's the most important thing you will ever do in your life.

It really is. And you know, the honeymoon session, all the good sex up front ain't what you're getting 5 years from now. So, you know, I think the big thing too, really around relationships is repairing quickly because we're all going to fuck up. We're all going to lose our patience, lose our temper, et cetera. Say the wrong thing, forget the flowers and the card, repair quickly.

You know, it's fascinating. Obviously Christine's significantly, she's 30, I'm 58. We have a great relationship. I just don't get that bent out of shape about anything anymore. I'm like, you want to go there for dinner? Let's go there for dinner. Like, I'm not muting my voice, like, right. But it's like, if it's that important to you, then we'll go do that. Like, whereas in my 30s, it'd be like, fuck, we're not going there. You know, like, I'd want to win something. I'm like, I don't need to win. Like, you're beautiful. Let's go have dinner. I, you know, yeah. How can I, how can I support? How can I be like, that's the coolest thing. Um, I have a couple friends of mine that have those kind of similar age gaps and they're like, yeah, it's like way easier. Like, it's my ego's done. My ego's out the door. I'm not interested in any of that. It's like, okay, you want that couch? Great. You like that color? Great. Whatever. You know, whereas before you'd go to the mattress on things.

Yeah. Right.

But yeah. Cool. Well, um, I appreciate you driving in and coming and fighting traffic and finding parking, I should say, in downtown, fighting parking in downtown Denver.

2 miles from home. I should have Ubered.

Yeah. Well, I'm glad it wasn't, I'm glad it wasn't a big trek, but, um, I'm glad we got to do this, Mark.

Yeah, me too, Matt. Thank you so much.

It was a great conversation. We'll, uh, we'll do it again soon. Okay.

Yeah.

All right. How do people, if people want to find out about what you're doing at Regenexx, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Uh, either LinkedIn, you can find me there, or—

You're there all the time.

Uh, mtesta@regenexx.com.

Mtesta, T-E-S-T-A, at Regenexx.

Yeah. And looking forward to your book. When's it out?

It'll be out. We're actually going to release it in Japan next week.

Oh, cool. What's the name of it?

It's called Out of the System. It's a doctor's guide to reclaim their purpose, power, and passion.

Excellent.

So it's all about leaving the system. So it'll be released in the United States at the end of March, only because I'm going to be in Japan speaking at an event. So we'll release it there and then we'll release it at the end of March and I'll— you will get one of the first copies. I will send you an autographed copy.

Great.

Okay.

Looking forward to it.

All right, brother. Thanks for coming in, Mark. I always enjoy talking with you.

Likewise.

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