The Future of Procurement & Insurance Consulting with Karène Zencker

I have a bit of an unconventional path, let's say, in procurement, because my first study was worlds apart from procurement. I had no clue about career. We were very much engaged in multi-country negotiations. We developed our model, and then we sold it, you know, with different companies. Together with the key managers, we built together a new organisation with a new 10 people that we were absorbing. It took me, I think, 6 months to really understand how to really manage this ecosystem. It was huge. We built, let's say, together a good feeling of trust and a healthy relationship. It was really, you know, learning by doing. I think what is important is if you need something, you need to ask. No one will give you anything if you don't ask. There is a lot of potential, for instance, in AI with, you know, comparing or looking into the details of a contract. It really helps you to save a lot of time. I think the manager is responsible for the success and the non-success of the team. So what is important is to really learn from your experience.

In this podcast series, we're following the journey of some of the leaders in Procurement and supply chain. Join me as I go through their detailed experience and what they have done to get to the point that they have in their career. I hope you're inspired as much as I will be, and if you feel like you've got a great story to share, please do so and let me know. Hi all! Today we're here with Karen. Karen is from Generali. She is the Head of Procurement at Generali Italia S.p.A. Karen, nice to have you here.

Hi, Marco. Happy to be here with you today.

Great. Great. Good to get into the details of your role as we usually do in this, and I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to do so as we progress. Before we do that, it'd be great to get a sense of your company, what Generali is for the few people who may not know the company as such, and also your role and what are you really proud of as a team and what you have done in your team. And then we'll go a little bit into your story.

Okay. Yeah. So, as you said, I'm head of procurement of Generali Italia, which is the local procurement of Generali Group. So, we are part of an international insurance company, a leading insurance company in Italy, of course, and also in Europe. So, I'm happy, let's say, to represent the local procurement and have this interaction with the group. So, we have, let's say, double aspects. We manage all the procurement of goods and services for the Italian company, but we are also doing some operational service, let's say, in terms of administrative service for the invoice recognition or also the emission of purchase order for the group.

Mm-hmm.

So, we have this double role. let's say. I'm leading a team of 40+ people. We are acting on all categories of purchase, of course, from IT, indirect professional services, logistics, facilities. So, it's pretty diverse, let's say. Wow.

So, it's quite a wide team with lots of different levels of expertise, I imagine that. And I'm sure we'll get into how you deal with a teams of that size and how you manage it. So, Karen, it'd be great to understand who you are as a person. And the question I usually ask every guest which comes onto our series is, if your family were to describe you to me, how would they describe Karen?

Oh, this is a good question. I would define myself, let's say, as quite an introvert person at the beginning, but Of course, I will open up when I feel that I'm in a safe environment with people that I can trust. I do care for my family and friends. I try to be kind with the people I care of. But also, I try to apply kindness in the professional environment. I think it's a good quality to be applied. It helps you to create a network, to build trust, and also to have some help in return when it's needed. I'm quite a dynamic person, always on the move, a little bit impatient sometimes. But yeah, it's, you know, we are in a multitasking society now. We are doing so many, so many things altogether. Sometimes it's hard to, you know, keep focused, but I'm trying to work on that as well. I'm French, one of the details we can say. And sometimes we are a bit grumpy. It's part of our DNA. But yeah. Yeah.

Well, as you know, I'm from Rome, so, you know, we're good. We've got lots of similarities there. So your friends, how would they describe you?

My friends? So I think I'm fun. I'm quite easygoing, flexible. I can adapt to different kinds of situations. So I do care about friends, friendship. I think it's really, really important to maintain this relationship all the time. So yeah, I like to see friends as much as I can, of course, compatibly with professional activity and family life as well.

Yeah, good. So let's get into your career. And if you could talk us through the journey of all the way till the first time you stumbled upon procurement, but maybe start for those who are at that phase of the initial part of their career where maybe they're just finishing university. How did that journey go from the point of you finished university, you got into your first few roles, and then you got into procurement? procurement. If you could talk us through that, that'd be great.

So, I have a bit of an unconventional path, let's say, in procurement, because my first study was worlds apart from procurement. I started university when I was 17. I had no clue about career. I don't come from a family, you know, working in the business industry. So, it was very far away from me. And the philosophy was, okay, study whatever you want. I was fond of art. So, I studied history of art until the end. I had a Master of History of Art, but I realized that it was going to be complex to have, you know, to find a job in this area. So I had an international experience in Rome, your city, with an exchange program. I pretty liked Italian. I liked also the international, you know, going away from your country, trying new things. So I had the opportunity to switch from History of Art to a Master of International Business, they were accepting people coming from, you know, humanistic path. So, it was a good opportunity to challenge a little bit myself, to try something new. And I felt really committed because I wanted to succeed. So, it went very good. And just after that, I started my— to work, let's say, in Italy, in different industries, not yet in procurement. I did also an MBA because I thought it was not enough, you know, to have 2 masters. I wanted a 3rd one. I'm a bit of a first of a class. be person, you know. So, yeah, yeah, no, I like to learn, to be honest. I'm, I'm curious, and I, I think continuous improvement is really important, and I really apply this to my personal and professional career. So, after this MBA, I've been contacted by a consultancy company, and this is where I started to get closer to procurement. So, uh, I, I did different projects, but one of— I started working as a software asset management— in software asset manager.

Okay.

Which is about about getting the best of a deal, negotiation with big vendors, for instance, optimizing license costs. And it was pretty trendy because the savings were massive. Yeah, of course.

At that point, yeah.

The request was very high in terms of projects. So it was a project after another. So I could accumulate a lot of experience, see different deals, enterprise agreements with big vendors. So the benchmark between a company and another was very interesting and it was the high value that we were delivering.

Yeah, and cutting edge at that point in time because obviously it was developing on the IT side and being able to understand that must have been quite a lot of demand, quite cutting edge in terms of what you were doing.

Absolutely, absolutely. So, it was a self-return that was kind of immediate, you know, and in this experience as a consultant, I worked in between IT department and procurement. So, this is a start of my procurement journey.

So, that's how you got into the procurement side, and obviously, very interesting to hear, and not uncommon that there are people who come from a completely different, maybe they've done a degree which is, as you say, in the arts of things and then got into it. But obviously, if you have an interest and an ambition, it is something which can be achieved. And so, you were in a consultancy firm, you now started your first few projects of procurement, if you want to describe maybe some of the things that you were looking at and what you were being asked to do, because at that point in time, you were probably just getting a grasp of how do I do procurement properly?

Yeah, so I was getting closer to procurement and sometimes, depending on the customer, we were in front of the vendors negotiating directly and sometimes we were behind the scenes, just preparing for the negotiation, elaborating different scenarios. So I think the key of a good negotiation is when you really get prepared and you have different scenarios in mind. So you know how, you know, to adapt based on the vendor's answers and reaction. The complexity, I mean, we were very much engaged in multi-country negotiations. So we were here to collect all the demand, optimizing also the demand because, you know, the more you standardize the demand, the best also deal you have, because it's better to go in front of the vendors with a proposal that makes sense and a little bit standardized.

Mm-hmm.

We also learned a lot about, you know, the key moments in a negotiation, end of the year, end of the term, whatever it is. So, you know that you can push a little bit further with the discounts or commercial conditions. So, yeah, it was a really fast-paced, you know, learning to see all these negotiations. negotiations at the time, at the same time.

Were you being guided at that point by other senior consultants helping you on learning these things, or did you have to learn a lot of this yourself?

I had the second one. Yeah, because it was a pretty new subject. So, I had a very quick introduction because the first time my director told me, oh, you're going to work on a software asset management topic, I said, what is that? What is that?

It's a common theme in this series.

Yeah, because Because I was involved in HR projects, so it was completely different, of course. And this was a little bit more hardcore, you know, with hard skills to be developed. And we built a methodology. So, the interesting thing is that we really built it from scratch. We developed our model and then we sold it, you know, with different companies.

Of course.

So, we really gained in expertise. And the thing is that it was an independent consultancy firm, which is very important because we were not a partner of software vendors. Or distributors.

So you can keep yourself separated that way. And for those who are getting into the consultancy world and learning all that, it's quite an ambitious industry for anyone getting into procurement, maybe through that. If you could describe maybe the journey of the colleagues and the competition there and what you did yourself to get yourself up to speed, how did you research? Did you connect a lot with team members? Did you find out a lot of information yourself? How did you push yourself to become good at what you were doing?

So basically, I became a manager after 3 years in this company. So it was pretty quick. I was a little bit more than 30 years old. And yeah, for sure, consultancy, it's the speed in your career on this point of view. So we We partner in general with a consultant doing the more, you know, the analysis and the scenario. And I was more the point of contact with the customers or presenting, you know, doing the steering committees and stuff like that. So, it's really a team spirit. In consultancy, it's, you know, you are between young people. I mean, the manager is 32 and the consultants are 27 or something like that.

Yeah.

So, there is not a big gap between the two. I think it's pretty stimulating.

And it's interesting because I was listening to this other podcast, which was really talking about how you actually don't get out of yourself's round and circle of growth until you get to a point in your career where you're actually in a job with people from different ages. So, if you think about it, from school all the way up to university, everyone's pretty much in the same place in their life. Everyone's doing the same thing. Actually, consultancy in a way sounds, from what your experience has been, a bit of an extension of that. of pretty much the same age. Of course, they're going to be the senior managers and the partners out there, but a lot of the work that you do as a team is of you being in the same sort of space.

Yeah, absolutely.

So taking that conditioning into your mind, it sounds very clear that you're quite ambitious and you were driven to do well. How did you stand out? Was it— did you feel the pressure to try and show what you were doing or find out a bit more or spend time to become technically better at doing the procurement part? Or did you feel like a lot of your relationship for people to understand your career better was built on building a lot of good relationships and understanding?

Yeah, for sure, the relationships are fundamental because you have to take care of a customer because you want, of course, their contract to be renewed and you are creating credentials and a network and experience that you can sell to other customers. So it's very important, you know, to have a good relationship, positive feedback from your customers and colleagues, because of course you have to work with everyone, I would say. And it's still something that I use a lot in procurement, both with internal customers than providers. I do think that providers can be partners and you can work effectively and negotiate it better. So it is something that I really continue to apply to have a healthy environment. And I think that with kindness, you can reach a lot of results.

And at that point in time, and you seem to have quite a bit of self-awareness now, maybe at that point in time, you didn't necessarily call it that way, you didn't have the self-awareness. But did you know that there were some skills that you had that you could push on or take advantage of, which naturally came to you? And if you could describe these skills that you feel were very strongly aligned with procurement and what you were doing that you felt gave you that advantage or gave you that push to be able to become successful.

Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. I am quite flexible, so I have the ability to adapt to different situations coming from my personal background. So I'm French, I moved to Italy, but I come also from a family of, you know, my mother is Chinese, for instance. So I grew, let's say, in a multicultural context and I've changed my studies also in a very radical way. So I was, you know, with different people. I like to travel as well. And also consultancy was pretty much for me in that sense because I was experimenting different thing, industries, and customers. So, I think the sense of the capability to be adaptable and flexible is really, really important because we are in a world that evolves every time, all the time. Secondly, the capacity to build relationship. I mean, good relationship, I think, is fundamental, really, because it's something that you can manage on the long term. In a negotiation, you can be very aggressive, of course, and have a very good result, but it's a short-term result because maybe later it would be more difficult to have a better result. So, I do feel that it's better to have a good network you can rely on.

Great. And you touched upon negotiation there, so let's open that a little bit more. Can you remember your first big negotiation without going into the specifics of the detail? of the deal as such, but just how you went about preparing must have been quite nerve-wracking, maybe, or maybe not. If you could unpack that a little bit, share with everyone this story, because that's one of the key milestones in procurement.

Yeah, I think the key is the preparation, especially in a complex negotiation. You cannot just improvise and don't know your figures, for instance. So, I'm pretty much an analytical person. I like to look into the data, really understand the data, Prepare already, as I said before, in advance some scenarios. So, you know that you can try ABC, but at least you have some options with you so you don't get unprepared doing a negotiation. And I think it's really key. And I'm still very pretty much based on figures. And I like to know my data before I go to a meeting or a negotiation.

So, prepare, prepare, prepare.

Yeah, absolutely. And also to do the briefing with the people. So it's important that internally you are fully aligned. So every time we met the vendors for a big negotiation, in advance we align with the customers. So no surprise, because you don't like when you think something, you elaborate a scenario and someone out of the blue will say something completely different. So it's then difficult to be serious in front of the vendor.

So you're providing a script basically.

Yeah.

And did you find it nerve-wracking, or because you were prepared, it wasn't? We're describing that first negotiation you had there, where you were effectively leading a team to do this negotiation in a positive way, including the customer, including your own immediate team. You're probably providing some of the technical knowledge. Were you comfortable with that scenario at that point because of the preparation that you were mentioning here? Or do you feel like you had that natural instinct in any way?

Yeah, I think it went good. And I think that in every negotiation I follow, there is a good cop and the bad cop scenario. Yeah, situation always. I'm generally the good one, but you have to— you don't have to trust the good one. Sometimes it can be more dangerous than the bad cop. And I think it works well just to keep a little bit dynamic and interesting.

Of course.

A bit of adrenaline.

Yeah, it is. And it's It's classic, it's a typical thing that people expect, but it does really work. And you can change. You can, one time, be the good cop. Sometimes you can be the bad cop and that. But I think it's a whole host of things, especially negotiations, where there is that natural aspect that a person brings to the table. But it must have been quite an interesting journey for you to go at that point in time because it was maybe the first few ones. And were you, at that point, already moved to Italy, or were you in France?

Yeah, I was already in Italy. Actually, I I didn't really work in France, just at the beginning, just after the uni, but that's it. And then I started to work in Italy because I followed my husband there.

Yeah.

And it was, you know, also a good opportunity for me to be French because I worked at the beginning only with French companies. And then also the consultancy was a French company.

Yeah.

And then I saw a job posting on LinkedIn. There's a lot of resources there. And I saw this job posting for a global category manager in Generali, and it was completely me. So I say, oh, maybe I should apply to this position. Also, I was at the point in my life, I just had a child. You know, in consultancy, you have to move a lot. So I was always traveling somewhere in Italy or in France also. And after my child came, the birth of my child, I wanted to be a little bit stable. And also, after 6 years in consultancy, moving from a project to another, customer to another, I I wanted to try to experiment something a little bit different when you are in a company, working for a company, trying to, you know, do your own footprint and, you know, to leave legacy. Yeah, exactly. So, to build a team and maybe to make a career and change, you know, within the company. So, I liked also this move at a certain point of my life.

Okay. And were you managing people already at that point when you were—

Yeah, I had a team of 5 buyers. So, we were— so, I was global category. So, working for the group at the time, group procurement. with all the countries that we were supporting in digital and software and cloud procurement. So still big vendors. So it was my knowledge still there. So I felt confident that I could have this role and grew and grew.

Yeah. So tell us your experience about getting into management. So you're now quite capable specialist as such, your first team that you were managing. How did that experience go? Was it Did it slightly change because you're still having to keep your expertise in the IT space, as you mentioned, but you still had to also manage a team at this point now? How did that experience go and what were your first experiences and introduction into it? And are there some tips that you would recommend for people?

Yeah, so I think you have to, when you change role and you are starting to manage people, buyers in this case, you have to understand what are the capabilities of everyone.

Yeah.

You know, to take the best of everyone in your team. So, there are buyers or people more quicker to do something, more into the contents, the analytics, the relationships. And I think when you allocate a negotiation or portfolio of vendors, it's important that you really stick to the, you know, real skills of the people. So, you have the best of your team. You have to invest time to listen to them, to check on them a little bit also, to guide them. So, you can understand who is more autonomous, who needs to be followed a little bit more, who needs advice as well. And you are here also to defend them if there is something wrong or if there are some uncertainties and you can support them. And I think it's nice to really be cohesive and to be a team and not say, oh, it's his fault and the negotiation went wrong. No, it's also your fault as a manager because you needed to know how it went. And it's okay to get it wrong sometimes, you know, because, but it's important that at least you learn a lesson from what went wrong and grow from this experience.

And do you feel that leadership aspect of it, in particular when you're starting to manage the first few people, there might be people who may be older than you, experienced or things like that. They look up to you in different ways, and sometimes the expectation is that you know more than they do at what they're doing, and often it isn't necessarily the case. They might be technically better. How did you go about getting that confidence in the team? Was it some of the things you've just mentioned around protecting, making sure that the team is working? Or did you have maybe something that you did or some approaches that you had that people could take?

I think what worked well is that my expertise in this area was recognized. So, I felt, you know, legit to take this role. I was able also to guide them because they were experts as well in the software industry negotiation, but I was able to understand what was more difficult, you know, at a certain point of the negotiation, what it was needed to do as well. I could bring also best practice from the consultancy side.

Yeah.

So, we built, let's say, together a a good feeling of trust and a healthy relationship. So it went well on this side. I think everyone was older than me, but it was not an issue.

No, you didn't feel this. Because I remember in my instance, when you get this first few people who are a little bit older than you, there's always that little niggle in your head. And ultimately, and often in my case, and I'm sure you will have had that now in your more recent roles, there might be people who are really experts at something a lot more than you are, but that's not what you're there for. You're there for guiding the whole function. So, let's get into that a little bit more. So, now you've gone into the consultancy, you already had a team, and you had some team management experience.

Yeah.

You've now gone into this role, which you applied for, and you were successful in. How did that experience of going into this large complex, where you're no longer part of a smaller consultancy firm, But you're now in a territory with lots of different stakeholders, politics, dare I say. How did you navigate that whilst also managing a team?

Yeah, I think that was the more difficult part of the job because, of course, from the hard skill, it was okay. And as you said, when you enter in a big organization, I don't know how many countries we were supporting, 30, 35. there is no chart explaining to you how it works. So you have to figure out yourself how to navigate, understand who are the key stakeholders, who are the ones you have to take care of, who are the ones who will support you, the ones that you need to convince also. So yeah, it took me, I think, 6 months to really understand how to really manage this ecosystem, it was huge. And it was interesting as well. Yeah.

And I imagine that every, obviously every department has its own interests. You're potentially bringing something to them that they see as a must-do, not, I'm not that interested in doing it as long as they do it for me kind of scenario.

Yeah.

So explain maybe some of that experience there on how you can Take their interests and guide them and show the stakeholders that you are taking care of that, but also why it is important for them to do what you were pushing the team and what you were responsible for. Maybe talk a little bit through that experience so that people who are looking at this now are going, okay, that's some really interesting tips.

I think you got the point because when you are the global procurement, your aim is to standardize the demand. So, have, as you said before, you can negotiate a better deal and it's simpler, of course. But every country wants its own configuration, so you have to convince them. So you have to collect everything, but put everything into order and then come back to the countries and explain why they should converge to the group setup of a deal, for instance. And as I said to some big vendors, we are the best inside sales of the vendors in the company.

Of course.

So it's the reason why the partnership with the vendors is essential, because we are there also to make a successful deal for the company, even if some country will not have, you know, the custom setup that we would like, but it's not possible. You cannot have 30 different configurations. You have to converge, you know, towards a standard. So at the end, they understand when the saving is here, because when you standardize the demand, then you can have a better discount. So, it's a win-win situation for everyone. But we are kind of an ambassador of the deal inside.

And it's really interesting, that point that you are talking through now, because often maybe if someone doesn't work in procurement and just sees the procurement function coming in to do one part, they just see it as, oh, they're interrupting my relationship with the supplier, the deal that I have with the supplier. But actually what you're saying there, that thought is not— definitely in your case, it sounds like it's not your approach. Your approach is to make sure you understand what the service is, partner with them so that you can do the internal sales in the best way possible, which is appropriate for you, not necessarily only appropriate for the supplier or for the stakeholders. How do you build that trust with stakeholders that you are there for that and not just to go there bash the price down, put you in some process approach.

And I think it's important to align, you know, communication is key. So you can explain. So for complex deal, we prepared presentations. So we explain why they had interest to follow the group guidelines, you know. And I think it worked well. If you don't, if you go, you know, with a top-down approach, you don't try even to consider what is the need of the local, then it's not going to be a good negotiation internally. You will not have the buy-in, of course, of the stakeholders. So, it's really important to have this exchange and to listen to them.

Yeah, and it sounds like technically you knew what you were doing anyway because you'd already done some experience, you've had some teams and management, and you were just learning, maybe moving your feet along, trying to get an understanding of how to manage stakeholders in such a global space. So, there must have been quite a bit of, and we'll touch upon both sides, there must have been quite a bit of help from mentorship, guidance. If you maybe talk us through what you think about mentorship, or even if not maybe necessarily mentorship, it could be someone who's technically experienced and making sure that they're on your side. Talk us a little bit about your experience on the mentorship guidance and support that you have had in your career.

So it's weird that you asked me this question because I often have in my career, managers letting me a lot of autonomy. So, it was really learning by doing.

Doing it yourself, yeah.

So, I appreciate this, the fact that they let me autonomous on a job. So, I was not over-supervised. So, I learned a lot by doing myself things. And I would say that also just to wrap up with my personal life, my mother was one of my first role models because she arrived Polynesia. So I come from Polynesia, 20,000 kilometers from France. And she had no diploma recognized in France. So she was a nurse, but she could not be a nurse in France. She didn't know anyone except my father. So she had to adapt herself, understand how to be autonomous also, because she worked in Polynesia and she didn't want to be just a mother. So she left the 2 kids, my sister and I, at the kindergarten, and she attended some classes. So she became an accountant. So she completely changed her career as well. She's a very hard worker. She never complains. And she was able, let's say, to gain autonomy, to elevate herself, to find a job, to build a network. And I think it was pretty inspiring for me as a model, as a daughter as well. And I took a lot from her. So I'm not afraid of doing the hard work. I like to understand myself, how it works, and I think it helps me to lead better. So there are different styles of leadership. I really like to understand profoundly how it works, and I'm the kind of people opening the box to understand how it works. And I think it helped me to lead better.

Get under the skin. So it sounds like your mother, in your case, had a real impact. You looked up to them and obviously you recreated the same sort of approach, which has brought you successes.

And then in the company, yeah, I had a chance to have a coaching path. It was really interesting to ask yourself some questions.

Was this structured by the company? Yeah, of course. So they provided it as a structure? Official one.

Official one, of course. And to ask questions sometimes you are a bit uncomfortable with. You don't want to open everything, but I think it was very useful to put the finger on some points that needed to be, not changed, a little bit improved, let's say.

What was some of the best learning you've had from that experience of mentors, which, or the support structure that the company provides you? Is there any tip or anything which sticks to mind that someone maybe told you? that was really valuable and useful for you?

Yeah, I think what is important is if you need something, you need to ask. No one will give you anything if you don't ask. And it's worth also for negotiation, of course. You need to ask a vendor if they can give you some benefit, and then you'll see, and then you will adapt. But at least if you don't ask, I mean, you don't have regrets if you have asked.

If you don't ask, you don't get, which is the typical saying. And often it's these small things which you think If for someone looking at this, or you're going into a complex or big role as such, you might think it's a host of really difficult technical things that you pull together. Yes, there's probably part of that, but the majority is these little things, tips sometimes help you. And as you say, just push maybe the boundary a bit more to see if there is an opportunity, and that seems to have brought you some successes.

And I think it's also useful to ask for help. People are, I think people are happy to help, to give you support. And I think they feel rewarded also when they feel useful. And so it's, yeah, it's something that you learn. It's not a sign of weakness. You just, you can't know everything. No, of course. And you can't do everything on your own neither.

Yeah. And how much did you rely and work with your team as well in those cases? Because as you know, You have to show leadership, but at the same time, there's nothing wrong in asking a technically experienced team person to support you on something. How did you go about that aspect of making them feel that you're a good leader, you need them, and make them want to work with you on these things?

Yeah, as a manager, I think it's important to develop your team, to give them autonomy, as I was given autonomy myself. And of course, when you become a manager of a wider team, now I'm coordinating more than 40 people, I cannot do everything on myself.

Of course.

So, it's obvious. So, my role completely changed. Now, I'm more— I'm here to have conversation with the key stakeholders or key providers, to organize the work in a good way, in an efficient way, to rethink the process, to see where there is a bottleneck and if we can improve that, so to bring innovation. So, I have to rely, of course, on the skills of my— of the expertise on my team and category manager, Of course. So it's healthy, of course, to be informed of what is going on, but only the important things. The other, you can let it go and it will be managed by someone.

So before we get into your bigger role, let's touch a bit more on your personal side of things. So you mentioned, of course, that by then I think you had a son or they were growing as such. How do you balance that aspect of wanting to have a good, strong family life, but also a very strong career. How— what's your approach to making sure that both things are handled, apart from doing 3 times the work, which I know you seem to be doing?

Yeah, yeah. I'm still struggling a little bit with the work-life balance, I have to confess. Yeah, it's not easy. So now my son is older, so it's easier and easier. But when he was a little one, he was not sleeping, so it was really complex.

I remember Lots of coffee, I assume.

Yeah, a lot of coffee. And then in Italy, you know, it's very strong.

Easy to get to.

Exactly. But when he was born, I mean, yeah, he could, he could wake up at 5 in the morning. So when I arrived in the office at 9, I was already exhausted and I had the whole day, you know, in front of me. But yeah, it's something you manage at the end. What is important is to keep in mind that it will not last forever. So you have some hope that it will get better.

Yeah, it's just a complex phase, you know, Yeah, I feel like you're telling me that advice. Thank you.

You're in this period now, so good luck.

Yeah, exactly.

It will not last forever.

Yeah, thank you. So, in terms of managing the personal life and the skills also obviously helps you become a bit more of a rounded person and also putting some of those barriers when you know some things you're good at, some things you're not. Sometimes you need the team to help you. Sometimes you need to take some time off. But all these things come from learnings, as you said, some mistakes one may have done. Is there any situation that you can share with us which you could think, I would have done that differently, or it was a funny moment, something happened, and then I managed to turn it around, which is great, of course, which is why you're here as well. So is there anything that you can share just for those who are maybe wondering if this is all about getting every Yeah, I think you touched the point.

So I'm a perfectionist and I struggled a little bit at the beginning to really— it's not that I was not trusting people, but I wanted to supervise and to make sure that everything was perfect and delivered on time with high quality. It's still the case, but I know where it's needed to let it go a little bit. It will not be perfect, but it's okay. It's manageable and to really focus on priority. So, I'm still working on delegation, but I think I'm getting better. Yeah, also because it's a reason of survival. I cannot supervise everything anymore, of course. So when it was a smaller scope, I was pretty much informed of what was going on, but now it's impossible, of course. So I really try to focus on priorities, and it's not a big deal if it's not perfect. It's okay. Also because otherwise you you could burn yourself. I mean, if you want to be everywhere and to attend every meeting and oversee every presentation, you can't make it. And personally, it will take too much of your time, and it's really healthy to have a break, as you said. So, for instance, I commit myself a lot during the week, working also long hours, but in the weekend, I completely—

Switch off.

Yeah, switch off. It's fundamental.

Yeah. And I think it's become more and more important in the recent years as well to get that right balance because it's good for you as well. So that's great. And obviously, you are now at that point, if we go back to the point in your career where you've got this team, you've taken up this new role, you've been now with your current firm for a few years, obviously, that's developed and you've become a leader. Of quite a large function, which maybe you absorbed some people in some cases, and in some cases you chose the people. Can you talk us a little bit through that experience and how you manage those situations where you absorb people, maybe you are having to develop others, identify what's the best way for them to move forward, and how you can make it all work and balance? Because I think you touched upon it earlier. Your role has changed. It's no longer about doing the deal and doing the negotiation as such, though occasionally I'm sure you still put your hand in it. How do you go about this to do that?

So, when I was appointed as head of local procurement, I inherited it from a team. So, it was already there. And also, the interesting thing is that at that time, we acquired a company, another insurance company. So, we went through 30 people to 40 people. So, 10 more new people coming from that company. And it happens effectively 6 months after I was appointed. So, knowing that I would absorb people, I didn't know exactly the number, but more or less I knew the quantity of people coming in the team. I prefer not to do anything the first 6 months. So, I didn't want to reorganize.

Observe.

Yeah. So, I was observing a lot, get familiar with people, understand what was the role of everyone, which processes were doing okay, which processes were not efficient at all. And together with the key managers, we built together a new organization with the new 10 people that we were absorbing. So we reorganized completely the activity, completely changed everything in terms of categories, Henry's allocation of buyers and back office activities and new activities as well. Everything pretty much based on figures because for me it was important. So, we are fully digitalized already, so we had access to a lot of data, number of purchase orders, purchase requests, contracts, and all this stuff. So, I took everything and we, you know, look at the numbers, build the team in an efficient way that every team has an adequate number of buyers and could manage the volumes in an effective way. So we came out with a new organization 6 months later with the new person that we acquired, and I think it worked well.

Yeah. And did you find that in some cases, maybe one person wasn't ideal for this role, but they're better for this role? How did you manage that communication with them to go, right, I think you're good at this one, we should move you across, because sometimes people get a bit territorial, right?

Yeah, you know, when it happens, what is important is that you explain the reason why you need to do some changes. And it depends on the person, because there are some people more open, you know, to changes, more flexible than others. But with the right, you know, communication, I think, and it's manageable. Yeah, we changed some people, but it was not so radical. Yeah, it was. Yeah.

Okay, good. And if you then take into account that you've now got a fully formed department and function, and you're now having to drive some of the things that the business wants, but a lot of it is also your responsibilities to do that aspect of it, the procurement as such in this case. How did you go about ensuring that the team also worked together with you in a balanced approach? And what worked best, there are 2 questions here, what worked best for you is to align yourself with what the business wanted to do or give guidance to the business around how procurement should be done? What worked best?

So, both ways. I think toward the business, I try to promote the value of procurement. So, we are not a bottleneck. I mean, we could be a bottleneck in the previous world, like an administrative function, just doing paperwork, works and things. But by adapting ourselves, being proactive, anticipating the demand of the stakeholders, scouting for the right vendors, doing the tender to bring value and savings, doing the proper contract. Because one of the important things that I didn't mention is that I work in insurance. It's a very regulated environment, so we have be compliant, we are auditable, we have to protect our data, the security. So, it's important that you don't engage us too late, otherwise we will be seen as a bottleneck because we have to perform all these checks, you know, it's mandatory. So, if you partner with your internal customer and you really convey this value to them, then okay, it will work well. On the other side, it's the same for the team. So, if you prepare, you know, all the renewal of your contracts in January for the whole year, it will work better than, uh, just discovering what you need to renew in December. And it would be, would be panic moment for everyone, uh, so everyone will work with stress and pressure, uh. So this is a way also to have the buy-in of your buyers so they can understand that, yeah, maybe it's a little bit tedious that you have to prepare everything in advance, but you will have the benefit of that doing the whole And that's a very interesting point around, essentially what you're saying is being planned and organized, which is the right thing to do.

Do you find that that's your responsibility to ensure that the team is aware that this is coming up? So you talked about data and you manage that aspect.

Yeah.

Or do you think that it's your responsibility to provide that data to the one who's the category lead, for example, and it's for them to do that? and be organized and balanced in that approach? What do you find your role to be more effective in?

The second one, of course. So you give the data and then the category managers have to organize the workload of their team. So it's the better way because, as I said before, if you don't delegate this, you will die. And it's important that the category managers feel empowered and have their own responsibility of the category. They know their providers, they know the negotiation ongoing, what is expiring, what needs to be tendered again, and all these aspects.

Yeah. And nothing's ever smooth. You're going through these things. There's always something which can happen in your department. There's always something happening every day. How, in your leadership approach, how do you manage those scenarios? Do you tend to take your category manager with you for the problem and just be the guidance with the senior stakeholders to bring that comfort? Or do you leave it to them and you just want to keep that reporting to ensure that you can speak to the right senior stakeholders yourself? Which approach works best for you to deal with those scenarios?

So, between the category manager and me, there's a demand manager coordinating the 3 categories. a lot of allocation also of priorities. So, he's pretty good at that. And it filters already a lot of things. So, I really do enter when it's specific strategic projects and a little bit more sensitive. So, normally, yeah, I try only to get involved in this kind of things. The rest normally is managed. I want to be aligned, of course, when it's important. And when you need to push a little bit, I can intervene to do escalation and to speed up a little bit the process where it's blocked. But yeah, normally I let them manage the negotiation.

Great, great. And how do you support your team in their management as such? Because this is another very interesting aspect that once you get into 2, 3, 4 layers below you as such, There's the tendency maybe sometimes you skip and you then undermine their management as such. How do you manage that aspect of it yourself, particularly as probably a previous very detailed, and you had to learn to let go of some things, someone who had that problem before?

So, I have very high expectations. So, I would expect that my category managers knows everything that is going on below. So, it can happen for the sake of speed that I go directly to the buyer Because I just need information immediately. But normally, yes, I leave the category manager manage their own buyers.

Yeah, of course. And that can happen. That's just information gathering. Great. And so then continuing on a bit about the stakeholders, because you're in a senior relationship with these senior stakeholders as such, how do you manage and how do you balance that approach with them to make sure that what you are doing is of value. And I think we slightly touched upon it earlier on. But what's your approach with senior stakeholders, with your colleagues, let's say your peers who are also heads of certain departments, to ensure that what you guys are doing is really important and has to maintain a certain level of attention still? What is your approach, especially for I would say some people who might have just got that big role and now having to navigate this large complex company and are having to maybe establish the reputation of their function.

Yeah, so what I do is that I organize one-on-one meetings with key stakeholders, I would say twice a year, 3 times a year, something like that, and then we can meet on other occasions as well, like corporate events, just not to know about a specific negotiation, but just to let them know what we are doing, what are the new things that we are doing with procurement, if they have any needs so we can anticipate a tender. So, just to keep, you know, this contact between them and us, just to let them know that procurement is still there and we can support anytime they need. So, they will remember to call us. you know, at the right moment for future needs. Yeah.

And how do you balance? Because every one of them will have something different that they want. I want this, I want this, I want that, I was done. And you will have to say no to some people, no doubt.

Yeah, sometimes you have to, you know, do a tender, whereas the customer wants to go directly with a specific vendor. So, you have to explain why. Sometimes it's not, you know, it's not always easy, of course, but it's also our role. Otherwise, you don't negotiate. And how do you manage that?

Communication, is it just talking to them about the priorities that there are? Because there might be situations where actually this thing is burning, it's really important, it needs to be done, and you manage that. But then you have the worry that these guys go on and do it themselves if you're not helping them.

Yeah, you have to be sensible. Of course, if it's, as you said, burning, very strategic, very urgent, top management, okay, there is the process, but you don't have to stick to the process. You don't have to be a bureaucrat. So, it's up to our sensibility to understand where you can accelerate. But also, when you propose to do a tender, say, okay, but I will have special care on this tender. It will not last like 3 months. It will be done in a very few weeks. So, you will have a value from that. And yeah, so it's important to understand where you can go with your own procurement process and where it's better to let go. Because it's much more important than that.

Yeah. And let's talk a little bit about the function, your function as such. Share with us maybe some of the key things you're proud of as a function that you are currently doing, again, without having to give away some secrets, commercial secrets as such. But what are you proud of as a function and taking that into the context of your strategy for your function in the future? How do you see it evolving?

So I really want to achieve operational excellence, so to get rid of low-value repetitive tasks. So with my management, we analyzed the processes, we identify the bottlenecks, we identify where it makes sense to have automation. So we use RPA a lot and the investment investment is not that high for the return that you have immediately. So, now we are automatizing like 80% of the emission of the purchase orders. It's a lot of activity that was not— it's very repetitive. There is no value in that. So, we got rid of that. We are now analyzing other processes we can automatize as well. So, we have a lot of other robots playing as buyers instead of They're never sick, always wait, always work, never claim for a raise. So, it's very useful.

Yeah, but I'm sure there were some team members who were doing that who you've now reallocated to do other projects as well. How did you manage that part? You know, like, okay, now you don't need to worry about this, but you can maybe audit some of the work and these other things that you have.

I mean, the message that we conveyed was don't lose your time with that and focus on your negotiation because procurement is always running. There's always a lot of work. So, you know, it's not that you cut off people, you just make them focus on more important topics, negotiation, contract aspects. So yeah, this is really valuable, I think, for everyone.

Yeah. And any learnings that you could share with someone about the RPA element when you went through that process? What would you suggest to people who maybe are going, oh yeah, I could automate some of my purchase order processes as such? So, any learnings that you want to share with us that you think?

I mean, of course, the basis is that you have to have a digitalized procurement, otherwise it won't work. And the RPA has really a value on repetitive tasks, very standardized process. It works perfectly. The return is impressive.

So, really, it's about making sure you get the data correct and get that right as such in the first place. And did it take you a while to get into that? into that good return as such in terms of—

No, actually, it's really fast. So we made all the studies in terms of functionality that we wanted to automatize, and then we made some tests. Everything was good. We started with a threshold in terms of amounts. We didn't want any value going around without our control. Everything was perfect. So then we raised the threshold and we were confident that we could move on with a fully automatized process on this aspect.

And how has the business taken it? Are they Are they happy with that part for you?

They don't really know. Yeah, because it's the administrative part. However, we measured— I have a lot of KPIs. I love KPIs. So compared to last year, we could see the improvement in terms of lead times. So we decreased the lead time. I think, yeah, the business felt it because then we could answer more quickly to their requests.

And yeah, so at the end, we improved the overall So, if we now move on to that future aspect, what do you see the future of procurement? What do you see the future of what your function's got to do? And how do you see it evolving?

So, I'm very tempted by destructuring a little bit the categories.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, after putting it all together.

But I won't because it doesn't fit complex organizations, so it's important that we have the proficiency of our categories, the knowledge of the vendors, et cetera. But I would be very tempted to have a kind of squad that can act very rapidly on every category when it's needed. So you can absorb the emergency or to dedicate special care to very specific and strategic negotiation. It's not for everyone, so you have to find the right profiles in terms of buyers with versatility. But I'm very tempted with that. I would like to look into that.

And what do you see as the threats coming down the line? And what do you see as how you're going to deal with these difficult situations coming up? Threats could be, you know, maybe a change in technology or something. Is there anything in your radar that you think—

Yeah, so I really try to keep informed, you know, with new technology. Of course, there's a big hype with AI, but we didn't want to rush. So we are studying and building business cases where it really makes sense to apply AI because there's a lot of promise from the vendors, but you have to be careful and not to rush because otherwise, if it's not successful, then the technology will not be adopted. So I think the good start is analytics, good analytics, good data, quality of the data. So you can also build your strategy of procurement, rationalization of vendors based on the data. It's a very objective way of approaching your vendors as well and the organization. Then RPA, and then if you're mature enough, AI. But there is a lot of potential, for instance, in AI with comparing or looking into the details of a contract. It really helps you to save a lot of time. It's fundamental to double-check your sources and the accuracy of the results. Of course, but sometimes to issue a document or make a first draft of a tender, it really helps you to speed up a little bit these phases. So we start working on that.

And you touched a little bit about keeping yourself up to date as such, apart from listening to the Journey of a CPO every episode.

Of course.

Of course. How do you go about making sure that you got a finger on the pulse, as they say, and you know what's happening in the world? It's very easy to get only within your own company, to get yourself out there. What do you do to keep yourself up to date?

Yeah, so I try not to be self-referential, to look at what the other CPOs do, and also to take inspiration. So as I said, we are working in insurance company. So we basically procure intangible things, services, professional services, consultancy, and all these things. But if I look at manufacturing, for instance, procurement, I can take some inspiration and try to understand how I could apply best practice from the industry, from the manufacturing to the procurement of services. So how to build a catalog if you don't have a tangible good to be with a unit price. So how you can review your pricing of services that maybe put into that catalog. What are the new technologies in terms of procurement tools? Attending conferences, procurement conferences, there's a lot of things ongoing, so you cannot attend them all, but at least to have the last trends and to understand what is important. There's a lot of focus on sustainability as well, of course, compliance and risk management. So, there's a lot to take in, and then you have to You have to select what you want to go for. I never do more than 2 projects at a time.

Okay.

Yeah. To really, you know—

2 large projects at a time.

Yeah, large projects, of course. So we can be focused, we can have dedicated people working on that, maybe some consultants as well. But so you start something and you know you're going to finish it. If you start too many things, the risk is that you're not, you know, getting at the end of that.

And so what are the next steps of what you'd like to achieve apart from the aspect we talked about, destructuring again your category approach as such? Personally, what's your eyes set on? If you were speaking to your leader, whoever you lead into as such, what's your kind of future goals?

Yeah, really to continue to innovate, to question your processes. It's not because now the organization is working well that it has to be in this configuration forever. I'd like also to improve the skills of the team, so invest in trainings, keep them updated about new regulations, new things they have to learn, have more knowledge about their vendors portfolio as well, to really have the purpose of what they're doing in the company, so they're not just negotiating one specific contract, they are acting for a bigger picture, and it's important that they get the purpose of that, so they know exactly what is their role inside a company, an organization, a larger organization.

Someone who's looking at this and going, this is really interesting, I've no experience in doing any of this, but I'm listening to a leader in their space, what are the tips you would suggest to someone going, I want to get into this world, I want to do pre-cure, What would you advise someone who's maybe at that beginning part of their career to go and do to be best prepared and to get into this?

I think what is interesting with procurement is that it's multidisciplinary. You have to deal with a lot of stakeholders, a lot of functions. So, you can really learn a little bit of all the functions within an organization, different categories as well with the vendors. different processes. You are the gatekeeper of the process, but you don't have to be a bureaucrat. So, it's a balance that is not so easy to manage. I think the best advice is that keep learning, keep being curious about what is happening, and also go deep into your category, be an expert as well, and develop all your soft skills because it's a lot about communication and Yeah, great, great.

And for those who are maybe going into a bigger role and doing something, they're moving that gear, may not be managing people, but they're moving into a big role. What would you advise them to do to be successful in this big move?

Yeah, to understand how your position is inside a bigger organization, what your role has to be and how you want to be also. And also, you know, to move from a matter expert to a manager of a team, which is fundamental. So you have to do this step, you know, and to change the way you're working to be efficient and to have an impact on your organization and support the strategy of your company.

Yeah. And actually, that's a really interesting point you mentioned there. And this is something that often I've seen as well in my own teams and things, you could be technically very good, but managing people is a completely different thing. So if you are interested in moving from that because you think that your career is only going to get better if you manage and do big teams, be self-aware, I think what you're saying, because it seems to have worked really well for you to be a detailed person, but also being able to now manage people.

Yeah.

But for some people, it's okay not to move up, but you could become an expert in that space. You could become a deep expert and still progress. And I imagine that that's one of the things to really look at yourself and think, do you like this? And of course, until you experience management, you won't know that it's something you're good at or not. I imagine you'd support that as such.

Yes, absolutely. And when you become a manager, you have to take your responsibilities It's really important and also to defend your team. So, you can be not happy with something that your team did, but you have to debrief separately. But towards the other department, you have to be all together.

Yeah, great. And that's really interesting and very useful for people who maybe are in that space. Going, albeit, you might know how to manage and you're good, but actually, when you're moving into this, what we talked about, the political side of dealing with departments is knowing as a unit how you're going to present yourself, and that makes complete sense.

Yeah, I think the manager is responsible for the success and the non-success of the team. So, what is important is to really learn from your experience if something negative came out and not to repeat this error. Great.

Well, Corinne, thank you very much for your time.

Thank you, Marco.

And good luck in your future aspirations.

Thank you very much.

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