In this YouTube book‑club style conversation, Speaker A and Speaker B reflect on the ending of Anne Brontë’s The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. They debate whether Gilbert and Helen should end up together, introducing the concept of “plot armor” and considering whether the novel subverts it. The speakers analyze Gilbert’s violent attack on Lawrence, the subsequent reconciliation between the two men, and the plausibility of their quick forgiveness. They discuss gender‑based stereotypes about how boys and girls handle conflict, and how those ideas play out in the novel’s male characters. The conversation also touches on narrative structure, noting the story‑within‑a‑story framing and the brief diary excerpts, and highlights Helen’s agency when she uses a rose to propose. Historical context is added by mentioning the novel’s influence on 19th‑century divorce law reforms. Finally, the speakers compare Wildfell Hall to the other Brontë sisters’ works, express a preference for its modern realism, and plan to read Elizabeth Gaskell’s biography of the Brontë sisters for further insight.
Chapters
So we are done with The Tenant of Wildfell Hall. First, your takes on the story as a whole?
I think, I think we were talking about last time if we thought that Gilbert and Helen were going to get together. And I think I said I thought they were going to, but I wasn't sure if I wanted them to because of Gilbert attacking Lawrence. But I was thinking about it, and apparently Helen never finds out. So she's kind of like kept in the dark about that. And I know that Gilbert and Lawrence make up eventually and they become friends, but I just feel like if Helen knew, it would be a little different. But other than that, I thought it was a really good ending. And I liked bringing back the aunt in and finally giving her approval because, you know, that was kind of necessary after what happened last time.
Got it. Just, you introduced me to the concept of plot armor. Remind me how you define plot armor.
Where the main character either always has a good outcome or nothing really, or it never dies. Nothing ever happens to it because it's the main character, which I know is— that law is breached sometimes, but usually that's, that's, that's the thing.
So it occurred to me that, you know, although we agreed odds are Anne Brontë wanted Gilbert and Helen to get together at the end, or that was likely just because that's how these stories go. I remember also you were— you had such a strong, and legitimately so, antipathy towards Gilbert's attacking of Lawrence that there's a point at which I think you said, no, they can't get together. Maybe you weren't quite that extreme, but does that sort of qualify as almost anti-plot armor? Or that is, she, the author, is tossing us Curveball, so to speak, that no, they can't get together because Gilbert beat up Lawrence illegitimately. I mean, how do you, how do you take that as kind of a plot detail in light of the theory of plot armor?
Well, just for the record, I think in this case the plot armor is that even because that happened, Gilbert and Helen still got together, and like she didn't find out, and Lawrence forgives him, not all of a sudden, but forgives him for beating up on him, which I know could be realistic. It's just, I don't know if I could. I think anti-plot armor, maybe. Do you mean like the scene is working against him for a good outcome?
Well, it looks as if, or there's a point at which we were, it seemed hard to imagine how Gilbert and Helen could get together, given that Gilbert had been such a brute to Lawrence. And that's, you know, in some ways, right, instead of sort of protecting the protagonist, insofar— so Helen and Gilbert, I would say, both protagonists, but insofar as Gilbert is a protagonist, it seems like that detail made him ineligible to marry Helen, at least for a while.
Yeah, I thought so too.
And so in some ways, this last section, it almost feels to me as if the burden of this last— well, it's interesting, the first section ends with Gilbert beating up Lawrence, then pretty much, and then we get the diary, Helen's diary. And then we get, it seems as if the burden of much of this section is, of course, we have to get rid of Albert so that Helen's eligible to remarry. I say get rid of him, but, you know, it's convenient that he dies. But separately from that, we have to reconcile Gilbert and Lawrence. What are your thoughts on how she has Gilbert and Lawrence reconciled? How would you describe Anne's strategy as an author in terms of that reconciliation?
Um, I mean, I, I think— I don't think it— we see it, but I think it does happen over a period of time. Because when Anne moves to— back to her— back to Arthur, um, I forgot how long it is, but it is an extended period of time. So, and I think over that period of time, they eventually became more comfortable with one another, especially after Gilbert apologized. And I think that Lawrence could see that Gilbert is actually a good guy. And I think maybe a little bit for the sake of Helen, he wanted to let up because he thought it might have been good for Helen. And also, I think they just became friends. So I thought it was a good resolution for them.
Do you think it's realistic, given how badly Gilbert beat Lawrence, for Lawrence to reconcile so quickly?
Not really, but, uh, or I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I would, I would probably hold a grudge for a long time, but maybe he felt that way but then gave it up for the sake of Helen. Yeah, I don't know.
So if I may indulge in gender stereotypes, which may or may not be true, but there is a claim I have heard that boys, and this is even like middle school or whatever, but boys tend to get in a fight, get over it, and become friends again. Girls can be vindictive and nasty to each other for long periods of time. Do those gender stereotypes sound at all true or completely false?
I've definitely heard of that before. I've never seen the boy thing. I've seen the girl thing, so I could probably believe it. But yeah, I've never seen the boy part happen.
Yeah, I mean, in some ways I think of the boy part where you know, like boys on a playground get in a fight and then they're fine. This seems a little bit different insofar as, you know, Lawrence is a gentleman and, you know, Gilbert is supposed to be a decent person.
Yeah.
So the other, the other factor there is that Lawrence is sick and Gilbert over time cares for him. So maybe that helps too. I guess the other question is, if you were Lawrence, do you— would you suspect Gilbert of having ulterior motives for being so nice?
I would suspect that Gilbert was in love with Lawrence. I mean, that was kind of the whole reason why he beat up on him. Or Gilbert was in love with Helen, because that's part of the reason he beat up on Lawrence in the first place, because he thought that Lawrence was Helen's secret lover or something like that.
I wonder if Lawrence, when Gilbert explains to Lawrence why he beat him up, I wonder if Gilbert, I mean, I wonder if Lawrence Respects Lawrence— I mean, if Lawrence respects Gilbert because he cares so much about his beloved, is that at all plausible?
Maybe, uh, he could. Yeah, no, that's possible. Um, my first thought though, or if I was Lawrence, I would probably be more cautious of Gilbert because he beat me up, because I would probably piece his violent actions to Arthur's more questionable Actions. And it's not exactly the same, but I would— that's the connection I made. That's part of why I was so mad about that. But I guess there's a lot of ways to look at it.
Also, to your earlier point, I think this took place over like a year and a half, you know, by the time Helen and Gilbert finally get married. So, and I think it's months where Lawrence and Gilbert are kind of becoming friends. And it seems like they actually become decent friends. Were you surprised when Lawrence started giving Gilbert Helen's letters?
No, because I knew that that would lead to them getting married eventually. And also, I thought that, again, maybe Lawrence thought it would be good for Helen to be with Gilbert because he thought he was a good guy and better than Arthur and stuff like that.
Fair enough. And it's a little bit tricky because While Arthur is still alive, it seems as if Lawrence is adamant that Gilbert should not have any feelings for Helen. And so maybe, do you know if it's when Arthur seems decisively sick that Lawrence becomes more sympathetic, or only after Arthur dies that Lawrence becomes more sympathetic to Gilbert and Helen perhaps getting together?
Hmm, I forgot about that. I think it was after he died, am I right?
I would have to tell you, that's one of those things where, yeah, it's a sort of subtle— and also the relationship between Lawrence Gilbert kind of shifted bit by bit over time, and actually there was a time when he was giving Helen's letters and then not giving Helen's letters, and so I would have to kind of chart that, you know, if I was like writing a paper about this book, I'd kind of have to go through very, very carefully and see How did the dynamic between Lawrence and Gilbert shift exactly? So I want to kind of zoom out after we're kind of done with this and compare all 3 novels by the 3 sisters. But anything else on this novel and its ending or its characters or plot or anything?
Just one thing. I really liked how Helen used the rose to Kind of proposed. I thought that was sweet, but that's it.
No, it was sweet. And I guess I think Anne Brontë does a good job of sort of the tensions between are they going to get together or not? Of course, we all hope and expect they will get together, but then Gilbert does kind of flub it up in various ways. And then, yeah, and then it's nice that Helen sort of takes the initiative at that point. So I agree, that was, that was a nice— yeah, especially because she had been so, so adamant of no contact, yada, yada, yada. And then that was very, very nice touch. And it was— it's funny that Gilbert didn't get it immediately because it was so overt, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
And really beautiful touch. A very nice touch. Yeah. So of the 3 novels and the 3 authors, do you have a favorite? Like them all the same? A little bit of this, a little bit of that?
Honestly, I really, really like this one just because of how it was structured. I really liked going back in time and reading the diary. I know it was kind of like that for Wuthering Heights, but it wasn't— I feel like it wasn't quite— actually, no, was it a diary?
No, it was, uh, he was telling, um, the new tenant was hearing stories from the old, uh, nanny or housemaid or whatever, so it was kind of a story being told by somebody else. Um, there was a tiny brief bit where they, uh, they read a little bit from what's-her-name's diary, but yeah, but it was sort of a story within a story kind of thing. Um, but not a diary for the most part of it. Um, yeah, I, I would say this is my favorite too. Um, yeah, and in some ways it's one of the most— it feels more modern. Is that a fair assessment? A little bit?
I think so, just because there was some wacky stuff in Jane Eyre and then lots of cruelty in Wuthering Heights. This one's a little— even with the alcoholism, maybe that makes it feel more modern too. It just feels a little more realistic.
Recently I ran across the fact that about 11 years after this was published, Britain passed laws making it easier for husbands and wives to divorce, and in particular for wives to divorce their husbands. Yeah. And so apparently this did have an impact. you know, a kind of a cultural impact where it brought to light what it was like to be stuck in a bad marriage. So yeah, it played a role in changing history.
That's super cool.
It is good. So again, my inclination, just because I'm very curious about the 3 sisters, is to at least try a little bit of Elizabeth Gaskell's Charlotte Brontë. And if it's long, so we don't have to read all of it, but are you okay with Reading a little bit about these 3 sisters' background?
Yes, for sure, and that would be like a biography, right? Not another novel?
Yes, yeah, exactly, but Elizabeth Gaskell was a famous novelist, so she was sort of a peer novelist of the Brontë sisters, alive at the same time, famous at the same time, that kind of thing. So it is interesting because, you know, one of the great novelists of the 19th century in Britain is writing about another of the great novelists in 19th century Britain and her 2 sisters. So yeah, I thought she's, she's supposed to be a very good writer. I've never read it, so I'll pick kind of a link and then we'll get into it next time, okay?
