Wuthering Heights: Are Heathcliff and Catherine Horrible People?

Yeah, so I'm eager to know, what do you think of Catherine and Heathcliff?

Uh, it's, it's, it was, it was really fun to read, honestly. It's a really good story.

Well, fun, yes. And do you like them, dislike them? Are they evil? Are they entertaining? Are they wise? Give me some adjectives.

I don't think they're inherently evil, but I feel like they both could have made better decisions overall. Um, I know it's hard because of the influence that like Hindley had on Heathcliff and, um, like, I don't know, um, what's it called, like, um, Catherine married for social status and not for love, I guess, but that's just waking were then. So I don't know.

Well, yeah, should we forgive Catherine? I guess it sounds like you're, you're just accepting, okay, people do that. Well, except, except in Jane Eyre, she was not about to do that. Correct? Jane? Yeah, it wasn't exactly the same. But I don't think you can say people always And even, you know, the heroine of Pride and Prejudice, I'm forgetting her name, but remember she didn't like—

Elizabeth?

Yeah, Elizabeth. She didn't like that first, you know, suitor who had status and money, and everyone was unhappy about her. So I guess I'm wondering, why do you give— why do you let Catherine off the hook so easily?

I'm not trying to let her off the hook. Um, I guess I just didn't think about a case where she didn't marry Edgar. Um, though she probably could have. Um, she just thought it would like take her social status or something. So I, I guess she could have not. That's a mistake she made because I feel like things would have turned out differently then.

Do you think that she knew she was— I mean, you know, in the last chapter we read, she openly talks about, I would say, Loving Heathcliff, is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, yeah.

Do you think that she knew she loved Heathcliff when she married Edgar?

I think yes, except those feelings were pushed down by, um, her own mind telling her that this is— or marrying Edgar was the right choice. But then as the years went by, those feelings came bubbling up again.

Got it.

Especially when he came back.

So I'm gonna maybe be more aggressive about Elizabeth and Jane Eyre as better human beings. So I'll give you this case. You know, Elizabeth, I don't, I guess I can't imagine Elizabeth marrying somebody she doesn't love. And I can't imagine Jane Eyre marrying somebody she doesn't love. And yet, even though Catherine may not have known she loved Heathcliff, I agree with you on that. I think she knew she didn't love Edgar. And so is it just, yeah, shallow? Is it silly? Well, I guess the other weird thing actually is at one point, doesn't she talk about she married Edgar in order to help Heathcliff more? Do you remember a passage like that?

I think so, but I forgot in what way she meant she helped Heathcliff.

Well, I don't know that she got into detailed plans. I think it's when You know, one of the tricky things is, is it Ellie, the kind of old kind of nursemaid nanny who's telling the story? I think Ellie is recounting this, but I'll put it this way. My perception is that Catherine is kind of a twisted up character. Does that seem fair or not fair?

Definitely fair. Yeah.

And then Heathcliff, you've already explained that Heathcliff was kind of abused when he was young. And there's sort of a normal thing in our society today, oh, the bad person did it because they were abused when they were young. And we could talk about when and where we buy that. But, and I don't know what we mean by that, the adjective twisted exactly, but is it fair to say that both Heathcliff and Catherine are kind of twisted human beings?

For sure. And one thing I did just remember is that, uh, I feel like, uh, there was a point in time where Catherine and Heathcliff were very close, and then they kind of split apart. I think that point was after she came back from Rushwood Grove that first time when she got injured and she had to stay there for a little while. She— I feel like she came back more like a proper lady, and that's probably where that mindset of, oh, I have to marry for social status got instilled in her. Because I feel like before that, she would have definitely chosen Heathcliff over Linton.

Yeah, I mean, she was kind of required, I think, not to see him so much. So I think, you know, part of which there was a change there for sure. And then I guess, you know, when we were talking about bullying and you said, you know, you hadn't personally You know, experienced such bullying, but you had like cousins or whatever that had experienced bullying. Um, this is— I don't know if we would call what Heathcliff does bullying or not, but just in terms of weird, messed up people, um, do you know people as weird and messed up as Heathcliff and Catherine, or is this kind of like way out there?

I don't think I do, because I feel like the abuse that Heathcliff suffered through Through Hindley, I haven't met anyone who experienced that or anything near that, I feel like. I mean, I think I have met people who maybe think a little bit like those characters, but I don't think it's that severe.

And tell me what you mean by think a little bit like those characters.

Well, for example, Catherine had to change from— or had to kind of hide her personality a little bit. And then that, I feel like, convoluted her decisions later. And then Heathcliff also pressed down his feelings and became bitter and angry till the end when Lockwood comes in.

So, and you— I guess the first, I think, is actually relatively common, where people kind of pretend to be somebody they're not, and it messes them up in various ways. I I think that's common. But in terms of Heathcliff kind of becoming malicious, you know, actively malicious, actively intending harm for others, is it fair to say that Heathcliff actively wants to harm other people, at least some other people?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I don't think I've met anybody like that, like Heathcliff. I feel like it was meaning more for Catherine, but that's definitely how Heathcliff is.

I'm thinking of Heathcliff, kind of, I would say, seducing Isabel, who seems sweet and innocent and clueless, and then eloping with her.

Malicious intent.

Yeah, basically doing it just to get back at Edgar and maybe Catherine. I don't know. Do you think he is doing it mostly to get back at Edgar or Catherine or both? Or why is— because Heathcliff clearly doesn't love Isabel.

Well, Isabelle is, I feel like, close to Edgar and Catherine, but I feel like it would be more for Edgar because they're siblings. Um, yeah.

But could you imagine somebody marrying somebody else just to damage third parties?

No, not really. Honestly, that's pretty messed up.

It's pretty messed up. So, you know, uh, yeah, I think in terms of messed up characters Yeah, maybe. I mean, Catherine, I guess the reason— well, put it this way. Would you agree that Catherine is pretty horrible to Edgar?

I think so. Because, I mean, obviously, they're not in a loving relationship. I was a little confused by their relationship. Because I just couldn't tell whether or not Catherine, oh, I guess I think she was pretty uncivil to him, but honestly, I was just confused at that point.

Okay, um, yeah, I don't know if you'll get a chance to reread it, but I would say she was outright horrible to him, um, and yeah, messed up. And so then the question is, why would Emily Brontë, um, you know, uh, her sister in Jane Eyre has obviously the crazy woman in the attic, but She's not really sort of built out as a character. And I'm trying to think, it doesn't seem like— and, you know, in Oliver Twist, there are all kinds of bad characters, but they're clearly the bad people, and Oliver's a good person, and, you know, fairly clear like that. There is that, you know, one kind of woman who tries to help Oliver, and, you know, she's mixed. But why would Emily Brontë create a novel with kind of 2 horrible people in love at the center of the novel? Does that seem a little bit odd?

It's different and it captures attention. Um, and I feel like I haven't read a book like it, so that's super interesting.

Yeah, all of that's good. And probably one of the reasons it's famous. I know obviously the other ones we've read are famous as well, but this one is different and captures attention. Um, so in all of the like other books you've read, so mostly fantasy and stuff, you've never had twisted characters at the center of it in quite the way that these two are?

I feel— yeah, I feel like most of the time the main characters are always pretty good and, um, trying to do the right thing.

Mm-hmm.

Um, that's not the case with every single story I've read. Some of the— in some stories, most of the characters, if not all, are pretty twisted. But I feel like this is kind of on a whole nother level because there's so many third parties who are like being abused and abusing.

So yeah, you mentioned that famous series. There was a TV, um, where everybody's doing bad things all the time.

Oh, uh, Game of Thrones. Yeah, everyone's pretty bad there.

So what's the difference between the way in which people are bad over there and the way in which these two are bad here? Or is there no difference?

I think there's a small difference. Mostly it's just on a larger scale for Game of Thrones, but I feel like I would describe their— I would describe most of the characters in Game of Thrones as being selfish and trying to one-up on everybody. That's why it's called the Game of Thrones.

Yeah.

But here it's just kind of get payback for all the pain that everyone's caused each other. And there are examples of that in Game of Thrones, but again, it's just a larger scale.

So with Catherine, again, Heathcliff, clearly, you know, he was, I'll call it abused when he was young, had a horrible upbringing. With Catherine, yeah, can we say that she is twisted because of her upbringing?

I feel like you could say that, but I In my opinion, most of the twistedness came from, um, distancing herself from Heathcliff and be like being forced to become a proper lady. I feel like that's the root of it.

Do you think—

Because, um, sorry, uh, I'm pretty sure that Hindley didn't like physically abuse her. As much as Heathcliff. That's why I said— that's why I said that.

Would you say that Catherine is to some extent a likable person, or not necessarily?

It's kind of hard to like her in the last few chapters we read, so I'm gonna say no, but I'm sure that if things had gone differently, she would be a pretty nice person.

Got it. Yeah, no, I would agree. Just in readability, I would say I found maybe the first 8 chapters kind of hard to understand, and then this often happens with me, is that when I get into an author's world, and, you know, these worlds are— this is 19th century— takes a little while to kind of grok the universe. I would not say I'd had that. I found Jane Eyre to be very readable basically from the beginning.

Yeah.

You know, Emma was kind of hard to make sense of, and then it sort of started to make sense. My sense is these last 4 or 5 chapters were— with a lot of these old books, kind of seems a little bit slow, maybe even a little bit boring for a few chapters, and then something clicks and then it starts to kind of roll down the mountain. Is that kind of your experience?

Yes, for sure. Yeah, it's like all the books we've read, basically.

Yeah, and a lot of that is that I think you have to learn both to persist but also to kind of develop the ability to make sense of this pretty alien universe, you know, just And one of the things that strikes me is how different Charlotte's universe is from Emily's. I mean, Emily's, you know, Emily, you know, the 2 authors, does it— I guess I'm always thinking about, wow, these 2 sisters wrote these books at the same time, published them at the same time. Do they seem pretty different to you?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the overall setting, just because of the estates and stuff, they're the— it's It's a little similar, but the stories are completely different. And yeah, I wonder where both of them got the ideas too.

Yeah, psychology— yeah, setting is very similar actually. That kind of makes me want to go and look at photos on the internet of that part of Britain. But psychologically, I would say they're quite different. So cool. We will figure out a reading assignment. And what are you going to do in Hawaii for the rest of the day?

Um, today we're gonna go to my great-aunt's house and get cleaned up for a big family party, uh, and then probably go to the beach or work out or something.

Sounds like a fabulous day. All right, have a lot of fun and we'll talk later. Bye-bye.