Finishing Treasure Island

So Treasure Island, what are your thoughts after finishing it?

Um, I really like the ending. Um, and oh, I really liked, um, even though it's probably one of the more gory scenes, I really liked when, um, or the, the whole exchange with Hands and Jim on the boat. And I feel like when Jim killed Hands, it was like a turning of age moment. Which I thought was cool because I didn't know he was that young. I thought he was older. So that was an interesting dynamic.

I read somewhere that he's allegedly 17. So how old— do you have other information about how old he was?

No. But when we first started reading, I thought he was in his 20s for some reason.

Oh, yeah.

I missed the part where he was young.

Yeah. So I guess killing your first man at 17 is a coming-of-age moment. Um, you know, of course it's different, but, uh, could you imagine killing somebody?

Um, I mean, could I imagine myself doing it? It depends on how and why, but not really, honestly.

Um, suppose you were back in the day in a pirate situation like this.

Uh, if, if I needed to, yes. I think so. Yeah.

Yeah. So lots of drama. So earlier you had suspected that this would be a hero story and Jim was the hero. Would you say that Jim is a hero in the story or not necessarily?

I think so, but not in the traditional way. He goes and doesn't tell anyone about it. He goes and tries to recapture the ship. From the mutineers, which is very heroic in a sense, but also reckless because it was very dangerous and he didn't tell anyone. But since he ends up surviving and doing, doing the thing and getting everyone back on board and back to England or wherever, you could call him the hero. He technically saved the day.

Yeah, just to add to that, I'm not disagreeing at all, but I would say the fact that he gets the ship is pretty heroic, but on the reckless side, the fact that he ends up under control of Silver at the stockade is kind of a humiliation, and he's no longer heroic. And he doesn't exactly escape of his own accord. So I would say that limits— is it fair to say the fact that he— He doesn't escape of his own accord kind of limits the extent to which we can regard him as heroic?

It does, for sure. It makes him seem like, like his age, in my opinion, that he— the fact that he got controlled a little bit by Silver.

Yeah. Is there anybody who is a hero in this book?

Um, I mean, I think it depends on what you call a hero. Um, uh, what's it called? Jim does all this stuff. He captures the boat. Um, I believe it was, uh, the doctor. The names kind of are getting a little mixed up for me in this book, but, um, one of the doctors comes and gives Silver a fake map because he knows that the treasure was already, already unearthed, which, um, I'm not sure if you call— if you could call him the hero, but he played a big part. So I feel like this is a story where it has a lot of moving parts rather than just one person doing everything.

Then how about development? Some versions of a hero's journey include a transformation of the hero. Given that Jim is only partially and not entirely a hero, do you think that this is a story about Jim's transformation as a human being?

I think it could be called more of that instead of a Hero's journey, I think, especially because now we know he was much younger than I thought. And there's probably like, again, that coming of age or maybe growing up through all these violent scenes.

How would you say he is transformed over the course of the book?

I think he lost his innocence in a sense. In the beginning, he was just the son of a guy who runs an inn. Keep or whatever, and then now he's kind of maybe technically a pirate. I don't know how you would define it. A pirate who has treasure and can fund his education and stuff like that.

Just, you know, when I think, I think, you know, pirates are the people who kind of steal the money, you know, they raid ships and steal the money, take things away. And insofar as he's taking treasure that somebody else stole, and he's not actually stealing anything, I mean, I don't think we can claim they've stolen the treasure. So I would say he's not actually a pirate by that standard. Does that make sense?

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

And, you know, although it's funny because while pirates have a certain kind of romantic style, swashbuckling style, they are in fact criminals. And so, for instance, There are pirates in the Middle East who take over ships and sometimes kill the crew of the ships to this day. So obviously the style has changed. Now the pirates have motorboats and guns and dynamite and, you know, all kinds of things, but they are still pirates and they're described as pirates because they take over ships. They took— take over legitimate ships and steal the ships. kill the people and steal occasionally oil tankers. I think there have been oil tankers that have been boarded by pirates and the whole oil shipment is taken over. So, yeah, but stylistically, it's sort of like a pirate because, you know, he is dealing with pirates and so forth. How about silver? How would you describe the role of silver in this book? That is Long John Silver.

He was kind of hard to read for me and definitely changed a lot. At first he was all kind and I guess swashbuckling, and then he was savage and wanted to kill John or Jim and his friends, and then towards the end he was all appeasing and trying not to get shackled and killed on their way back to England, and then he just sort of disappears. So I think, I think you can describe Silver as someone who really is only looking out for himself and also had real— no real relationship with his group of pirates. I think he was just controlling them with like promises of gold and authority and stuff like that. So different from the hero for sure.

Yeah, and I would say I was expecting him— again, I read this when I was your age, but I'd forgotten most of the plot details— I was expecting him to be more kind of strictly the bad guy. And so it was kind of strange to see him kind of collaborating with Jim, but then Jim knew he couldn't trust him. You know, could you imagine collaborating with somebody like that who had openly threatened to kill you and probably would kill you again, but you kind of need to collaborate for a period of time?

Well, no, not really. I've never had anyone threaten to kill me, but under the circumstances You know, maybe.

Yeah. And how about Ben Gunn? What role does Ben Gunn play in this?

He was also kind of confusing for me because at first I thought he was just like the guy who was stuck on an island and maybe or maybe not found treasure and then went mad because it's been so long. But he did play a big part in getting— or he already had gotten the treasure, but Um, I was surprised that he was able to cope with modern civilization once they got back to England, honestly. Well, it wasn't very surprising.

Sorry, go ahead. No, tell me it wasn't very surprising. What?

Uh, it wasn't very surprising to me that he spent his fortune all in like 20 days or something like that. So maybe, maybe he couldn't. He was still a little crazy, but that's what I was gonna say.

That's what I was going to say, is you say he— you're surprised he could cope with civilization, but as you say, he went through his money in like 20 days, so that's not very effective coping.

Yes.

What are your thoughts on calling this an adventure story versus the Brontë sisters as psychological? What are your thoughts on the pluses and minuses of adventure versus psychological as things to read?

Well, they're obviously very different. This one was— I think I said this before, but this one was definitely more fast-paced and more actiony, I guess. There was chases and strategy, and I don't know, it's just a lot different from the balls and tea parties of The Brontë sisters, I feel like we were reading a lot of that, and both are very interesting. But yeah, I think it's good to read both.

No, I would agree. And by the way, it does occur to me, while this is pretty much adventure, the tiny bit of maybe not quite psychological but spin is that when we look at Jim and/or Silver and/or Ben Gunn, None of them are kind of clichés completely. That is, Jim's the hero who ends up being dragged by rope to the treasure under the control of Silver, and Silver is the kind of evil guy who ends up kind of collaborating with Jim, and Ben Gunn is kind of the crazy guy, where I would argue not quite heroic, but Ben Gunn actually plays a key role in kind of the success of the good guys, so to speak. And so it's not quite psychological, but I would say those Tiny plot twists. You talk about narrative armor. Is that what you say? Narrative armor? Plot armor?

I think it's plot armor.

Yeah, plot armor. And so I would say those little nuanced things make it slightly different from just kind of straight-up clichés. Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, I think so.

And therefore, I think a little bit more interesting. And as I think of it, the next book to pick, do you want to go back to kind of heavy psychological? You want to stay with adventure? Something completely different? Any thoughts on direction?

Um, I mean, I would love to do another adventure since— or something, something more like this, I think. And then maybe we'll go back to deep psychological, but honestly, I'm open to anything.

Got it. I was thinking of maybe sticking with adventure, but maybe more psychological adventure. That is, adventure with just a few more, kind of a bit more interiority, something like that. How's that sound?

That sounds great.

All right. In which case, great to see you, Alana. Till next time.

Bye-bye. You too. Thank you.