Does Wuthering Heights make sense to contemporary audiences?

Yeah.

Okay, so lots of intense stuff between Catherine and Heathcliff.

Yeah.

I guess my big question is, one interpretation of this is that these are just crazy, sick, messed up people. Another is that, well, yeah, maybe that's that. We'll go to that in a minute. But another is that somehow it's romantic and somehow we're supposed to find something about it appealing. So are you totally on the it's just crazy sick, or is there something, um, is there something about their romance that's positive?

I don't think it's positive. I think that's not a great word to use in this situation because there's so much abuse and, um, weird actions. I don't know how else to say it, between, um, especially Heathcliff. I think that if you read it in a certain way, their undying love, whatever, could be romantic. But I think the way it's portrayed and their actions take it to a creepier, less wholesome level.

Less wholesome is understatement of the year. I think it's fair to say there's— it's hard to find anything wholesome about it. Um, so Kind of, you know, I always have Jane Eyre in comparison. And so what do you think Emily Brontë is doing here? Do you think that she— I mean, clearly her sister has this, you know, romantic love story and whatever you think about, you know, those two in that one, this is just so much more twisted. Do you think she's trying to kind of trash romantic love or take it— what, why would she write a story like this? That's what I keep coming back to. Does she just have— yeah, is it just for drama? Or what is she trying to tell us here by showing this to us?

Well, it's certainly different than most love stories. And most of the time, I think that's the point. It's so much different than anything else. I've heard of or read, which makes it interesting, and I want to know what happens, and I want to try and understand why they act like this.

Okay, fair enough. There is part of me that wonders if, you know, 19th century is sort of the height of love stories, and maybe some 20th century, but are love stories— and I don't keep up with popular culture today or contemporary culture, Or certainly not contemporary fantasy. Would you say love stories are as popular as ever, or in your experience, or not at all? Or what's, what's the status of love stories these days?

Well, first of all, it does seem like there's a lot of love stories in the 19th century. But actually, recently I've read and have been looking up a lot of love stories and romantic stories. Especially, I've been recommended a bunch by a bunch of my peers and I haven't read them all yet, but I know there is a lot. I'm not too sure compared to other genres how big it is, but it's not dead for sure.

Thank you. Do you have a sense, have you read, is there a— there's sort of like we've mentioned rom-coms and even if you don't watch very many rom-coms, Jane Austen is sort of one version and then there are modern versions. But It's sort of light and positive and maybe a little bit humorous. Then, you know, Jane Eyre, Mr. Rochester and all, is kind of almost deathly serious, but it's still a love story. And this is, again, the sick and twisted love story. So do you get the sense from what you've been exposed to, is it more kind of the light and airy and positive version of love, or is it kind of deathly serious as in Jane Eyre, or is it kind of sick and twisted like this?

Do you mean the books now, or—

Yeah, whatever, whatever you've been exposed to more recently. Which, which kind of love story is it?

Mostly light and airy. And I mean, obviously there's a different general setting overall because it's set in modern times and not, um, back then. I, it— I feel like that makes a big difference. But the ones I've read so far are more light and airy. I know there's got to be lots where it's like more dark and Different characters.

So, well, it makes sense. Well, and I would say one thing about the Brontë sisters as compared just to Jane Austen or rom-coms is that, um, there's— it doesn't feel like there's the intensity. I feel as if Jane Austen's characters, yeah, they fall in love and get married at the end, but, um, it feels like both of the Brontë sisters, there's just like this intensity Does that intensity feel kind of old-fashioned and outdated, or could you imagine kind of dark or light, that level of intensity still making sense today?

I think, okay, first of all, I agree that there is a different kind of intensity in the Sisters' writings, and I think that it's definitely possible, and I'm sure there are books with the same intensity today. I just haven't read them. So I think it—

You think what?

I think it's— I think the things that contribute to that intensity are, um, the characters' connections and the writing style, honestly. Because I recently read a book that was like a romance novel, except the writing was not well laid out and didn't really connect, and that made it seem kind So I feel like a lot of it is your writing.

Got it.

Yeah.

A different sort of thing, but I assume you at least know the story of Romeo and Juliet?

Yes. Yeah, I do.

Have you kind of read it or watched a movie or anything? Are you basically familiar with it?

I think a little while, a long time ago, I read one of those watered-down kid versions and maybe watched a movie, but I haven't visited it in a little while.

Got it. So just spoiler alert, since you already, you know, teenagers fall in love, their parents don't approve, they kill themselves.

It's horrible. Yeah.

But going back to the intensity thing, one interpretation is that human nature is human nature, and that some people in all eras have had this sort of level of crazy intensity in love. A different interpretation is, well, some people at some places and cultures and whatever have that intensity, but that intensity is only part of certain cultures. Would your guess be that That sort of intensity could happen to anybody in any culture at any point in history, or do you think there are some places where maybe it's more likely?

Um, I could see it, that kind of connection between people being able to happen everywhere. I know that being raised in different cultures and areas and with different customs might affect that a little bit. But just, I mean, this is only from watching movies and reading books, but it always seems like there's an outlier. And that's what gets put into novels, you know what I mean? So I think so.

Yeah, no, you're right. Of course, it's in the novel because it's extreme. On the other hand, I don't watch, you know, very many sort of teenage movies, but every once in a while I do, every 3 or 4 years. And my sense is that most teenage movies are not about this level of intensity. I can imagine, you know, a couple breaking up and being depressed and everything, but this feels— certainly Wuthering Heights feels like a whole different level. Does that seem accurate?

Yeah, for most movies, I think that's true for sure.

And then what I wonder too is, you know, I think I read just a very superficial, maybe just a paragraph or two about the film. Wuthering Heights film. Personally, I'm deliberately staying away from either watching the movie or seeing or even reading reviews until after I finish the book this time through, because I always like to come with a fresh judgment. But, and I— are you the same? You haven't watched the movie or read reviews of it or anything?

No, I'm planning to wait until after we're done.

Exactly, for the— I'm sure the same reason. It's always better. So, but if you had to guess, do you think the movie will How do you think the movie will handle this? Do you think the movie will kind of keep the intensity, or do they have to— in order to make it make sense to modern audiences, do you think the movie will have to change it somehow for modern audiences?

I think it'll definitely change. I'm not sure how much. I think it's not— it's probably not going to be as I just feel like you're not going to get the same sense of psychological trauma and abuse in the movie as you are in the book. Part of that's because of the audience. Maybe it's hard to replicate. Just as an example, I've listened to one of the Game of Thrones prequels. It's called Fire and Blood, and it details a lot of stuff. And part of that story is the House of the Dragon show that's being released right now.

Mm-hmm.

And I did notice that they changed a lot of things. And it's not exactly the same story, but there is like intensity and lots of levels, and they changed a lot. So I feel like there's going to be differences.

Well, and part of this is books, you know, allow you to get inside a character's head. And I think I find books usually more psychologically intense because you're more inside the characters' heads, whereas movies, you know, you're looking at them. So I think, yeah, there's just internal experience that's, I think, more usually more intense with books. If you were to direct this, suppose, you know, you're a movie director and somebody said, okay, Alanna, you get to direct Wuthering Heights. How would you try to convey— and obviously there's a big assignment, I don't expect you in 30 seconds— but how would you try to convey the kind of essence of the book for a modern audience in a film?

Okay. One of the things I think about is setting, like making it moody and dark and grimy, especially in the Wuthering Heights household. And, um, maybe in the beginning, in the beginning of the flashback where everything's kind of happy, I'd like exaggerate that happiness and then exaggerate the opposite feelings later on. That would probably help. I don't really, I can't really say anything on the acting because I know nothing about acting. But those are the 2 things I thought of right away.

Certainly the setting, I think, would be the easiest piece to convey. And I think actually that's something that visuals might be even more powerful because I'm imagining all of this stuff. But yeah, actually, and I expect I would predict you're probably right in the sense that I expect the movie will probably be visually stimulating and dramatic, just as you project. But yeah, how to get inside these people's heads. So why does Catherine not simply hate Heathcliff? Doesn't she have abundant reasons simply to hate him? Why does she not just hate him?

You know what, I don't really know. If I were her, I would feel a little weirded out. But, you know, there's love and they have a deep history. They were besties and, uh, soulmates or whatever in the beginning flashback, and now there's a bunch of anger and stuff. But I feel like the connection they had is so big and wide that the anger can't bridge it. I don't know, something like that.

I guess that does seem like a reasonable attempt. It makes me wonder, it does actually make me wonder how their connection as kids could have been so intense or so close, because it seems so weird later on. You know, why would it, why would it have stuck is the question I'm left with.

I think, as I recall, Heathcliff was either taken in Or not of the same family. So I think being, or maybe feeling like siblings, but not actually siblings. And then that turned into something more, but I don't know. I feel like they just really cared for each other in the beginning. And even though things happened, maybe those feelings didn't go away fully.

How about, here's a hypothesis. How about, um, She feels guilty for— because they had such a— going with your first suggestion, they had such a connection. But I can imagine 2 different reasons she feels guilty. One is she was kind of raised— I think she was like 12 or something, and she was raised into kind of the upper class. They were kids, then she was raised up, and then they didn't have the same connection. And then later on, she marries old— what's his, you know, what's his name? And which is kind of deliberate betrayal in some ways of Heathcliff. So what if we— what do you think of the hypothesis that they did have this close connection as kids, then she feels guilty for betraying him twice in those respects? The first one, it wasn't totally in her control, but still kind of a betrayal. And because of guilt, that's why she forgives him for being such a horrible person.

That's a good point. I didn't think about that. But yes, I totally agree.

Okay, well, it's a hypothesis. I'm not claiming it's true. I'm just trying to make sense of the craziness of the situation. And going back to if they had such a bond, maybe she forgives him because she empathetically sees how much he suffered and how unjust his situation was. Seems plausible?

Yeah, I think so. For sure.

Okay, well, um, we will figure out what to read next time. Uh, and anything else from you on, uh, Wuthering Heights so far?

Um, uh, not too important, but I thought that it was weird how Heathcliff, um, decided that he was going to torture Hindley's son. That was kind of mean, but that's okay.

Kind of mean? It's horrible. Way worse than kind of mean, just horrible. That's what I mean. What's weird about this is it seems like we're watching this super horrible person and still, and this is maybe part of it because Catherine has a little place in her heart for Heathcliff, a little place, you know, she wants to—

Big place.

Yeah, she's totally in love with him and he's a horrible person. And so maybe Yeah, it's so— in some ways it feels as if the author is kind of messing with our hearts a little bit by not having us hate Heathcliff quite as much as we should. Does that seem right or not?

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's like plot armor kind of again. You want to like him, but he's a bad person.

Exactly.

It's not really plot armor, plot feelings.

Yeah, no, we— I get why you use plot armor, but you're correct, that's not quite correct. So we need to come up with character armor. What if we called it character armor?

Protagonist armor?

Yeah. Evil protagonist armor.

No, not really. I don't know.

No, but I get where you're going. I get where you're going. So excellent. Super interesting, Ilana. Have a great flight back, and I look forward to next time. Take care.

Thank you. You're welcome.

Bye-bye.