Five-year-old Ethan says fairness means everyone gets the same chance and follows the same rules. He thinks cheating at Scrabble or a video game is unfair, but forgetting a rule by accident is different from breaking it on purpose.
Hey Ethan, how are you? Are you well?
I can hear you.
Good, are you having a good day? Yeah. All right, so I was thinking about fairness. Do you think that some things are fair and other things are not very fair?
Yeah. So in one of the— in a video game I have, dad has enchanted pants and I don't, and I said, hey, that's unfair, and he said, well, I found them.
And so why did you think that was not fair?
Because me or mom did. Didn't have any chance at pants.
So how, what makes things fair? Is it fair when everybody has the same chance?
Yes.
And is it unfair when somebody doesn't have the same chance? Yeah. Okay, so is it fair that your mom and dad are taller than you, or is that, is that Is it fair or unfair that they're taller than you?
Oh, that's fair.
Why is that fair?
Because I'll be tall like them too.
Oh, okay, so as long as you have a chance to be tall like them, then it's still fair, is that right?
That's right, that's right.
Okay, um, how about is it fair that they get to go places on their own more than you do?
Hmm. Well, they don't really get to go places on their own very much because either one has to stay home or both of them have to go and I have to go.
Got it. Okay, that makes sense. So how about, is it fair that some people— how do you know if it's fair when somebody wins a game? Is it always fair if you win a game? Is that fair? And if somebody else wins a game, is that fair? Or is sometimes it not fair when somebody wins a game?
Like If it's a game, so let's say it's a game of points. Well, let's say I have 5 points, the other person has 10. That can be unfair, but eventually I get to 10, so.
So is it always unfair in games when one person has more points than another, or is it sometimes fair for somebody to have more points than another?
Sometimes fair and sometimes not.
So what makes it fair when somebody has more points than another?
Um, I need some time.
That's okay, that's okay. What kind of games do you play with points? Let's get a specific kind of game. Can you think of it?
Oh, so I have Scrabble. You play that sometimes.
Scrabble. And Scrabble, you have to know how to spell words, right?
Right. And if you finish a word, um, you have to like grab a little circle and it's a point for you.
And with Scrabble, do you play with— do you just play with your parents or do you play with some other people as well?
Uh, when I'm playing with my parents.
And who usually wins at Scrabble?
Me.
You win?
I have the most points. Do you think— Mom kind of cheats and says like, "I have 1,000 points," when she only has like 2 or 3 and I have like 5.
Is it fair when you, when you win? Is it usually fair when you win?
Yeah.
So would it be fair if she said she had 1,000 points and she won?
No, it wouldn't, because that's basically cheating. She's— but I don't really care because she always cheats at games.
So When you— would you say you earn your points? That when you get your points, you get your points in a fair way? That you get them according to the rules?
Yes, that is the rule.
And when she says she has 1,000 points, she's not doing it according to the rules?
Yeah, she's cheating.
So do you think that playing according to the rules is fair?
Yes.
Could you imagine a case where the rules themselves were not fair?
No, I can't.
Okay, so as long as we play by the rules, then everything's fair? So do you have rules about, say, when you're supposed to go to bed?
Well, I have to brush my teeth, wash my face, we read books. Mom tells a story, sings songs, then I go to bed.
Okay, and do you think those are pretty fair rules?
Yeah, fair.
Okay.
No, no, first we play, then we brush teeth. No, first is brush teeth, then we play, then books, then songs, Then stories, then bed.
Got it. Have you ever played with other kids? Do you ever play with other kids?
Yes. With my soccer kids, other kids, with my friends, bowling, hobo.
Do they always play fair or do they sometimes not play fair?
Sometimes like they We both don't play fair. Like sometimes if whoever kills the most zombies wins in the game, sometimes like we both say, like we get in kind of an argument. Like we say, like I say, I got 55 zombies and she says, "I got 20," and we get in a big argument until one of us wins.
So why do you sometimes not play fair?
I just don't sometimes. I forget the rules.
Okay, so forgetting the rules is one thing. Why do you think sometimes your friends don't play fair?
Because they also forget the rules.
Okay, so people just forget rules sometimes, is that it?
Yes, yes.
Do you think sometimes people deliberately break rules?
Um, yeah, I guess so.
Okay, why would somebody deliberately break the rules?
Well, because, um, Maybe if you just want to cheat.
Okay, so some people want to cheat, maybe.
Yeah.
Okay, well, do you have any other thoughts on fair versus unfair?
Nope.
Okay, in which case, do you know what you're gonna do today?
Hang out, play a little.
All right, well, I hope you have a great day hanging out and playing a little, and maybe we'll talk next weekend. Sound good?
Yeah.
Okay, bye-bye, Ethan.
