First convo on Group Dynamics

Perfect. And I will introduce you.

Cool. Well, today I thought, um, we'd talk about group dynamics. Have you ever heard of group dynamics?

I believe I've heard the word, but I haven't really got its definition in full detail.

What do you think it might mean if I said— if I asked you about group dynamics, what do you think it might mean?

Um, well, group dynamics I'm not so sure. Um, I don't want to make the wrong guess, but I mean, just off of my first thought, this probably isn't what it is, but group dynamics, I guess that makes me think of a group running. I don't know why.

Um, a group running, like running physically?

Yes, but I know that's not it.

Got it. No problem. So, um, I'm gonna put a paragraph in the chat, but before we get into it, one of the reasons I'm interested in it is, you know, it's one thing for you and I to have kind of a Socratic conversation between the two of us. It's different to have a whole group like with Karen's class where you've got like 12 kids, 13 kids, something like that. Do you know how many?

12 to 15.

Yeah. Yeah. And so that's sort of more of a group. And, you know, you could see it as, oh, this is Karen's class and all about Karen. Or you could see it as Alana, I'm the participant. It's, you know, all about what I'm saying and doing that day. But you could also see it as this group that is formed by the behavior of everybody in the group. Does that make sense?

Yes, it does.

So because, you know, I've spent a lot of time leading groups of not just students, I've led adults too in Socratic discussion, and I realized it's not just about me asking questions. Bless you. Thank you. It's, you know, it really does depend on the group. So to give you a sense of this, I used to go into public schools and I would lead the same discussion on the same story, like 6 hours in a row, and every group was completely different. Because every group of human beings, you start asking them questions, they go all over, and some of them are really happy and some are sad and some are, you know, angry at each other and some are confused. And, you know, and I'm not— and there's each individual. And does it make sense that the particular, um, nature of the individuals in a group and then form a group dynamic that changes all the time?

Yes, that That definitely makes sense.

Cool. So this is the beginning of an article on group dynamics I grabbed from the internet, and we won't get through the whole article, but, um, you want to read that first paragraph?

Yeah. The theory of group dynamics has its root in experimental physiology—

psychology—

psychology— physiology— psychology. Willem Wundt, who is credited as the founder of the discipline, first put forward the idea in 1912. Wundt was particularly interested in the psychology of communities. He believed that you couldn't understand collective phenomena such as language and custom by studying individuals alone.

So let's stop there. First, the notion of psychology of communities. Does it make sense that communities could have a psychology?

Yes.

So, yeah, how, how is it different? You know, there's one view of the world that we're all individuals. You know, there's Alana and her dad Ryan and her mom Marlo, and there's Karen and there's Michael, and, you know, we're all just individuals. Or there's also the notion that there are communities. So what's the difference between seeing the world as individuals versus groups or communities?

Uh, well, individuals, I think it's just their own opinions and their own thoughts. But if you're in a group and you have all those opinions and all those thoughts, if you're just thinking about that story that you were reading them and showing them, uh, then it could all get intertwined and you'd have to talk about all of those and think about all of those instead of just if you were one individual. And then communities, I would think, would be bigger than just a small group or a class. There would be different things happening in the community, different opinions, different things and different processes of thought. So you'd have to think about all of those. You know, that's one individual.

Now that makes sense. And, you know, it occurs to me that you're right. A community seems bigger than just a group. A group could be like you know, your class with Karen. And in a way, a group is a very, very small community, but you also have larger communities. In some ways, for instance, I could imagine the world of jiu-jitsu that you're part of is kind of a larger community with lots of groups. Through all these groups, different teams from different places come together for competitions. Is it fair to describe some of this as a community? Like, is there a community of jiu-jitsu competitors?

I think so. Um, and you're right, it may not just be a specific gym, maybe just gyms in that area. Uh, I think it could be possible that gyms on different, let's say, continents, or the whole field of jiu-jitsu might be a community. Um, but obviously I don't know everyone who practices jiu-jitsu, so I can't say that I have a special bond with them.

No, of course.

Um, I think especially for larger gyms, it might just be that gym, or like if you had multiple in a community or during, uh, in a like a little town or something.

No, that makes sense. And then do you know, um, do, do different gyms have different kind of group cultures? That is, do the students from one gym have a slightly different group culture than students from a different gym?

Yeah, I, I think so. There's, um, yeah, I think so. There's different cultures, um, uh, just maybe the care towards different, uh, kids and adults or how they run their programs and their gyms. It's all very different. How would you describe—

what are some adjectives you would use to describe different cultures? How do they vary?

Um, well, obviously in the physical, some gyms can be quite small and others can be quite large. Um, I mean, even just how they treat women and children vary in different locations. Um, how they— like I said, how they run their programs is big. Um, usually if their programs are really good, um, they— it has more people, word gets out, you know. Um, so maybe having a larger program, even if it's just kids, might signify that they have like a good, um, good coaches if there's multiple So thank you.

Say more about how they treat women and children differently. What are the kind of range of different approaches?

Um, well, I mean, just some gyms, like my gym, I think are very respectful. And, you know, they don't— or there's a rule that— or just for one example, there's a rule that you have to keep a shirt on at all times. I know at other gyms, uh, sometimes people just get really sweaty, and the moms— I don't know, the moms or dads and children are watching the older sibling doing the kids class. Maybe they're doing it at the same time, uh, you know, maybe not every parent wants to see a sweaty guy rolling on the bench, you know. Or even if it's just the actions toward women and children Uh, not everybody at every gym might feel comfortable. Um, yeah, got it.

Have you heard of a TV show called Cobra Kai?

I have.

Did you watch it?

I just never watched it. No. Isn't it some sort of, uh, sequel to Karate Kid or something?

Yeah, yeah. Did you watch Karate Kid?

I have.

Did you like it?

I didn't. I thought it was really cool.

I only watched, I think, one season of Cobra Kai. I think there are a bunch of seasons, so I didn't keep watching after a while. But it's interesting because at least the season I watched had very different— it was about different karate gyms, and then they meet in tournaments. And I'll exaggerate only a little bit. One of the gyms was all about kind of philosophy and quality and doing things right and integrity. The other one was let's be aggressive and win at any means, even if we have to kind of, you know, play dirty and that kind of thing. Um, yeah, does that make sense that you could imagine gyms, you know, that different?

Yes.

Yeah. Uh, would you say there's that range of gyms in the world of jiu-jitsu or not really?

I think there absolutely— I think there— yeah, I think there are. Um, I've only met a couple of the gems that are out, but you know, they could either be— or they could be sort of both. They could be one or the other, or they could be entirely different. Um, but yeah, I do think that there could be that, uh, one gem who— strike first, strike hard, no mercy or something. And then the other one who's all about You know, like you said, quality, good coaching, sportsmanship, and good training.

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is an interesting topic and we can go more deeply, but I do want to focus on the last sentence of this paragraph a little bit more where we're again, we're talking about William Lunt who founded group dynamics. He believed you couldn't understand collective phenomena such as language and custom by studying individuals alone. What do you think he means by that?

Well, it's saying that he didn't believe that you couldn't collect information, language and custom, as he's saying, by studying individuals alone. So he would have to study, or he would want to study, like maybe even if it was just a few people. In one space, he could, as he said, collect information and think about the language, custom that they're using in a group instead of just one individual.

That makes sense. I'm going to go back to the example of gyms, either jiu-jitsu or karate or whatever. One version, one theory of these gyms could be that it's all about the leader. The sensei, that if the leader is about, you know, let's be aggressive, then the whole gym is aggressive. If the leader is about kind of quality and virtue, then that's what everyone will do. Another would be that maybe it's largely the leader, but in addition to the leader, it's the whole community in some sense. Do you think it's mostly the leader that determines the cultural tone of a gym, or is it the leader plus community? And explain how you see that.

Um, and by leader, uh, do you mean like a sensei or coach, or like that guy who actually runs?

Actually, that's a good question. That's a really good—

the coach could be the guy who runs the gym, but in some cases with bigger gyms, there's the coaches and then there's the guy who sometimes coaches and but also runs the gym.

Yeah, no, I think that's a good question. So then maybe we have 3 tiers. Is it the guy who owns the gym? Is it the sensei or coaches? Or is it the community? Or is it some relationship? Or does it vary? What, what determines the—

I think it varies. I think the coach or sensei does really have a big influence. On the cultural part of the gym, um, because he's the one running the programs and he's the one who's helping everybody out. And if he's like the guy at the— the guy at the gym, No Mercy or something like that, in the Cobra Kai, then that would be his— and that would be his influence onto his students. Kid or adult. And then I think the community, they have their own choices. They can choose whether to follow the coach or not. They're the ones paying. But, and I think the owner has, I think, especially if he's We're frozen.

Let me— I'm pausing because Alana is frozen. Hopefully she comes back in just a moment. I like how she analyzes all of this very clearly. No pause. You're back.

Yes, I think I am.

Yeah, you are. You froze there for a minute. Yeah, you were talking about, um, how the owners and the customers and the sensei all have different levels of responsibility or different influences on the community and the culture.

Yeah, um, where did I freeze? Uh, what was I talking about?

You're talking about how, um, The customers, I call 'em customers now, can choose which gym to go to. And as a consequence, is that the way your primary way they have an influence is they leave a gym where they, there's a culture they don't like?

Yeah, that's one of them. And if some people just don't have any choice, they have to go to that gym if they want to train. You just either don't follow the coach, you have your own opinions, maybe, I don't know. You don't go as much, you don't follow his training as much, or you leave. Um, and then the owner— I think that if, um, you're a small, relatively small gym business owner and you're just the guy who started the gym, you don't— I mean, people see you, they're like, oh, you started a gym, cool, whatever. Um, I mean, sometimes it reflects on— especially if you're there a lot— sometimes it's your personality and how you act, um, that, that makes the customers stay or go. Um, because there are some cases where the gym owner is, uh, a jerk and, uh, he doesn't care about his customers. He just wants new ones coming in every day and money. You know, you might want to leave that place. So I think it does. It does. Every person, every member of the community contributes to the culture and, you know, the program in general.

Got it. We won't have time to go deeply into this, but I just want to touch on now that you've analyzed the world of jiu-jitsu kind of gyms and cultures, In terms of your Socratic class, would you say the culture is primarily dependent on Karen? Does Karen depend or create the culture, or do each of you individually, or there are a few of you in the class who are strong personalities, you create the culture? Who creates the culture of your class with Karen?

Um, by culture, do you mean people who contribute or people who start? Conversations.

Well, we'll talk about the group dynamics. You know, in the world of gyms, you know, you're talking about there are some that are kind of more negative cultures, some that are more positive. And so, and we're talking about group dynamics as, let's see, what did that paragraph say? The psychology of communities. So if we were to go from the psychology of individuals to the psychology of your group, of your Socratic group, I'm wondering who creates that. Does Karen create that? Do all of you create that? Do some of you create that? Or is there a psychology of your group? Could you describe your group as having its own culture, or does that not make sense?

I think that makes sense. I mean, I don't think our group dynamics or culture is negative. It's definitely not negative. I do think that there are multiple people who carry the conversation most of the time, um, and it's influenced that way where there's usually only a few people reading and talking, um, and some people either just like to listen or they don't really want to talk, um, uh, yeah, it's definite— it's positive in a way where all of us get along and we can talk about the same subject and either, you know, talk about others' opinions and agree or disagree.

What role would you say you play in that group?

Um, I mean, I definitely, when it comes to reading our novel that we read, I read, I do read every day. And I think I contribute to the conversation, and I hope other people think I do because that's my goal. Yeah, I don't really sit on the side and just watch everybody talk. I really only do that if I'm in the car or something, which I think is okay. I get nauseous when I'm in the car on my computer, so that doesn't really happen much.

Totally. I do too. If I read and talk, I get sick. It's terrible. Or headaches. I actually get headaches too.

Oh, I've never gotten headaches. It's just nausea.

Okay. Well, again, I think we're kind of out of time for today, but I'm really fascinated in how groups work together. And so I thought you would be more familiar with the world of martial arts groups because you've seen lots of different teams and clubs, whereas, you know, in the Socratic group, you've really only seen Karen's class. You don't have lots of different examples. We often learn by having lots of different examples of one thing. But at some point in the future, I want to explore that more and sort of see how that culture, the whole thing of psychology of communities, psychology of cultures, psychology of groups, group dynamics. I think all this is really fascinating. Does that make some sense?

It does.

Okay, in which case, go have a wonderful day, and I hope to see you next week.

Okay, thank you, Michael. See you next week.

Bye-bye. Bye.